Eleanor Herman
Appearances
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
I know. I love every single one of them. But this one feels particularly pertinent because this episode will be going out on November the 5th, which in the UK is remember, remember the 5th of November when Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament. But for you guys, that's the day of the election. Bum, bum, bum. Ah!
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Yeah, he's got to be up there, hasn't he? I don't even know what the word is because it's not the fact that he had a lot of sex. People can have a lot of sex. It's just sexually, morally repugnant with what he was doing. Cheating on his wife, taking advantage of people. You laid it out in the last episode that you came on. Not even being nice to these women that he's having an affair with, really.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Wow. And of course, you've got issues of national security. If he's having at it with anything with a pulse is, you know, sweet. What do they call them? Honey trap spies?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
There is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. That and JFK just exemplify it. So he is an absolute dirtbag for all his politics. And he was great and he was fabulous, but he was still sexually a dirtbag. Let's talk gay presidents. Has there ever been a gay president, Eleanor?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
No. As a sex historian, how often do we read that? That a family found papers after they died and then was so horrified they had to burn it. And we're always going, no!
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Doesn't it just feel like it's gone on forever and ever and ever? I mean, I look at this stuff and I think this is a gift for future historians. In 200 years, there'll be a different Kate Nell in a sat here trying to work out what the hell happened.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Oh, so Buchanan, for your money, and to be honest, I think I'm going to agree with you. He was a gay man and it seems at the time it was well known. Now there have been rumours, just whispery, sneaky rumours about Abraham Lincoln. Maybe he was a gay man. And what do you think of that?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Well, our lawyers have told us that we're not allowed to talk about the sex lives of living presidents or potential presidents. Which is really a shame. Which is a shame.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
The evidence for Lincoln then seems to be that he had, historians always, people take the mick out of us for going, they were just close friends, but he did have a very close friendship with this guy. Yes. Was it Speed? And they shared a bed and it wasn't just for a night. It was for quite a while that they were doing that. But that's sort of the extent of the evidence for that, isn't it?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
So there were no rumors at the time. It wasn't like with Buchanan where it was Miss Nancy and Miss Fancy. Not at all. Nobody at the time. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay, that's mildly disappointing. I was really hoping there that you would say, yeah, he was definitely a fabulous gay man. Do you know the one that I was really upset about was FDR. I thought he did stay faithful to his wife.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Oh my God, could we ever? So if anyone wants to hear that, you're going to have to come back in like 10 years. That's what you'll have to do. But you have written a book called Sex with Presidents, The Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House. What made you want to write this fascinating book, Eleanor?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
One of the ones I want to talk to you about is we're kind of drawing it to where we are going to have to stop talking about people because they're still alive. But Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson. Now, one of the things I do know about, or at least I read it about him, apparently he had a huge penis and he called it jumbo and liked to show it to people.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Wow. Okay. Going forward for this, because I'm just thinking about powerful men, presidents and the sex that they have. Do you think that they will learn their lessons from history? Mentioning no names in particular, but there are current sex scandals around presidents or former presidents that could threaten to take down an organization. And I'm just wondering...
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Now when we've got so much tabloid journalism and the internet and everything is under scrutiny in a way it's never been before, do you think it'll stop them?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
And they would never be elected in the same way. Like if a woman ran for the prime minister in the UK and she had multiple ex-partners and ex-husbands and wasn't even sure how many children she'd actually had, there's no way she would get elected. There's just no way.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
And as a final question, in all the research that you've done about president sex lives, not counting any who are living, was there any that were nice? Was there any that you looked into and you went, oh, he just really loved his partner and he just, yeah. And he was just happy to stay at home and there was no cheating. Was there anyone like that?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Eleanor, you have been wonderful to talk to. Again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your research, where can they find you?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
And we will get you back on when your next book is published. That sounds fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on again. You are wonderful.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Do you think – it's kind of – it's a weird one because most of us have sex. Most of us have sex. But there is something about power and sex that goes together. Do you think with all the research you've done around kings and queens and presidents that something happens when you get given that much power when it comes to sex?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
That makes sense to me because one of the questions I was going to ask you as we're going through this is why are they so stupid when it comes to sex? I know we haven't spoken about anyone in particular yet, but this will become a theme as we're going along. The recklessness of it and the entitlement of it and the fact that at any point, if this scandal got out, it could bring down a government.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
I was talking to my friend about this just the other day, and she just looked at me and she said, Kate, there is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And I thought, maybe that's true. But I'm glad that it actually has a name. What was that? Hubris syndrome. So let's talk about one of the big American presidents. The first one, actually, I think. George Washington.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
What do I know about George Washington? He was tall and he had false teeth. That's what I know about him.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too scandalous. So there might not be too many skeletons in George's closet there.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Okay. All right. So, George, okay. Let's move across to Thomas Jefferson. Hmm.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Was it scandalous at the time? I mean, I know that he was the president and his political enemies would have been on the hunt for anything that they could get their teeth into, but a slave owner having a family with an enslaved woman, how scandalous would that have been at the time?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
It's just awful. The thing that I can't get my head around that. I mean, you just keep going and it just gets worse and worse. But how could you enslave your own children? That blows my mind.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
And what happened to Sally? What do we know about her, Sally Hemings? Was she ever freed? Did he ever free her?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
And at the time, this seems like it was quite a scandal. It seems like it's quite an open secret. But it was one of those kind of did they, didn't they, what was really going on? Is it just a vicious rumor for a long, long time? But they did actually prove this with DNA evidence, didn't they? That this is what happened. Yeah.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
I think you can go out on a limb and say that. I think I would agree with you there, Eleanor. So Thomas Jefferson is a jerk, and that would be putting it very, very mildly. Is he the worst one that you found in your research? Was he the worst one that just made you go, oh, God, no, no. Put it away. Keep it in your pants, you horrible man.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
We have spoken about JFK before. And he didn't ever, ever stay faithful to his wife, Jackie. Like, not even a little bit, did he?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
It is pathological. In the episode that you came on and we spoke specifically about JFK, when you're laying it all out, I'm actually hearing it thinking, these aren't the actions of a well man. This isn't normal behaviour by any means. This is weird behaviour.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Jesus. Wow. So Jackie knew, I mean, how could she not know what he was up to? But she was, she kind of did that thing that a lot of women married to powerful men have done down the years and sort of made their peace with the fact that, yeah, if he stands still long enough, he's going to have a go at it.
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this very hard to have discovered, hang on, the president is running around America like a dog with two penises here. Why didn't that hit the press? Why wasn't that a scandal?
American History Hit
Presidents' Private Lives
Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Eleanor Harmon. How are you doing?