Eleanor Herman

I know. I love every single one of them. But this one feels particularly pertinent because this episode will be going out on November the 5th, which in the UK is remember, remember the 5th of November when Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament. But for you guys, that's the day of the election. Bum, bum, bum. Ah!

I know. I love every single one of them. But this one feels particularly pertinent because this episode will be going out on November the 5th, which in the UK is remember, remember the 5th of November when Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament. But for you guys, that's the day of the election. Bum, bum, bum. Ah!

Yeah, he's got to be up there, hasn't he? I don't even know what the word is because it's not the fact that he had a lot of sex. People can have a lot of sex. It's just sexually, morally repugnant with what he was doing. Cheating on his wife, taking advantage of people. You laid it out in the last episode that you came on. Not even being nice to these women that he's having an affair with, really.

Yeah, he's got to be up there, hasn't he? I don't even know what the word is because it's not the fact that he had a lot of sex. People can have a lot of sex. It's just sexually, morally repugnant with what he was doing. Cheating on his wife, taking advantage of people. You laid it out in the last episode that you came on. Not even being nice to these women that he's having an affair with, really.

He's just using them like a conveyor belt.

He's just using them like a conveyor belt.

There you go. Look at that. Look at that.

There you go. Look at that. Look at that.

Wow. And of course, you've got issues of national security. If he's having at it with anything with a pulse is, you know, sweet. What do they call them? Honey trap spies?

Wow. And of course, you've got issues of national security. If he's having at it with anything with a pulse is, you know, sweet. What do they call them? Honey trap spies?

There is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. That and JFK just exemplify it. So he is an absolute dirtbag for all his politics. And he was great and he was fabulous, but he was still sexually a dirtbag. Let's talk gay presidents. Has there ever been a gay president, Eleanor?

There is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. That and JFK just exemplify it. So he is an absolute dirtbag for all his politics. And he was great and he was fabulous, but he was still sexually a dirtbag. Let's talk gay presidents. Has there ever been a gay president, Eleanor?

Yes.

Yes.

No. As a sex historian, how often do we read that? That a family found papers after they died and then was so horrified they had to burn it. And we're always going, no!

No. As a sex historian, how often do we read that? That a family found papers after they died and then was so horrified they had to burn it. And we're always going, no!

Doesn't it just feel like it's gone on forever and ever and ever? I mean, I look at this stuff and I think this is a gift for future historians. In 200 years, there'll be a different Kate Nell in a sat here trying to work out what the hell happened.

Doesn't it just feel like it's gone on forever and ever and ever? I mean, I look at this stuff and I think this is a gift for future historians. In 200 years, there'll be a different Kate Nell in a sat here trying to work out what the hell happened.

12 hours?

12 hours?

Oh, so Buchanan, for your money, and to be honest, I think I'm going to agree with you. He was a gay man and it seems at the time it was well known. Now there have been rumours, just whispery, sneaky rumours about Abraham Lincoln. Maybe he was a gay man. And what do you think of that?

Oh, so Buchanan, for your money, and to be honest, I think I'm going to agree with you. He was a gay man and it seems at the time it was well known. Now there have been rumours, just whispery, sneaky rumours about Abraham Lincoln. Maybe he was a gay man. And what do you think of that?

Well, our lawyers have told us that we're not allowed to talk about the sex lives of living presidents or potential presidents. Which is really a shame. Which is a shame.

Well, our lawyers have told us that we're not allowed to talk about the sex lives of living presidents or potential presidents. Which is really a shame. Which is a shame.

The evidence for Lincoln then seems to be that he had, historians always, people take the mick out of us for going, they were just close friends, but he did have a very close friendship with this guy. Yes. Was it Speed? And they shared a bed and it wasn't just for a night. It was for quite a while that they were doing that. But that's sort of the extent of the evidence for that, isn't it?

The evidence for Lincoln then seems to be that he had, historians always, people take the mick out of us for going, they were just close friends, but he did have a very close friendship with this guy. Yes. Was it Speed? And they shared a bed and it wasn't just for a night. It was for quite a while that they were doing that. But that's sort of the extent of the evidence for that, isn't it?

So there were no rumors at the time. It wasn't like with Buchanan where it was Miss Nancy and Miss Fancy. Not at all. Nobody at the time. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay, that's mildly disappointing. I was really hoping there that you would say, yeah, he was definitely a fabulous gay man. Do you know the one that I was really upset about was FDR. I thought he did stay faithful to his wife.

So there were no rumors at the time. It wasn't like with Buchanan where it was Miss Nancy and Miss Fancy. Not at all. Nobody at the time. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay, that's mildly disappointing. I was really hoping there that you would say, yeah, he was definitely a fabulous gay man. Do you know the one that I was really upset about was FDR. I thought he did stay faithful to his wife.

Oh my God, could we ever? So if anyone wants to hear that, you're going to have to come back in like 10 years. That's what you'll have to do. But you have written a book called Sex with Presidents, The Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House. What made you want to write this fascinating book, Eleanor?

Oh my God, could we ever? So if anyone wants to hear that, you're going to have to come back in like 10 years. That's what you'll have to do. But you have written a book called Sex with Presidents, The Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House. What made you want to write this fascinating book, Eleanor?

One of the ones I want to talk to you about is we're kind of drawing it to where we are going to have to stop talking about people because they're still alive. But Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson. Now, one of the things I do know about, or at least I read it about him, apparently he had a huge penis and he called it jumbo and liked to show it to people.

One of the ones I want to talk to you about is we're kind of drawing it to where we are going to have to stop talking about people because they're still alive. But Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson. Now, one of the things I do know about, or at least I read it about him, apparently he had a huge penis and he called it jumbo and liked to show it to people.

Wow. Okay. Going forward for this, because I'm just thinking about powerful men, presidents and the sex that they have. Do you think that they will learn their lessons from history? Mentioning no names in particular, but there are current sex scandals around presidents or former presidents that could threaten to take down an organization. And I'm just wondering...

Wow. Okay. Going forward for this, because I'm just thinking about powerful men, presidents and the sex that they have. Do you think that they will learn their lessons from history? Mentioning no names in particular, but there are current sex scandals around presidents or former presidents that could threaten to take down an organization. And I'm just wondering...

Now when we've got so much tabloid journalism and the internet and everything is under scrutiny in a way it's never been before, do you think it'll stop them?

Now when we've got so much tabloid journalism and the internet and everything is under scrutiny in a way it's never been before, do you think it'll stop them?

And they would never be elected in the same way. Like if a woman ran for the prime minister in the UK and she had multiple ex-partners and ex-husbands and wasn't even sure how many children she'd actually had, there's no way she would get elected. There's just no way.

And they would never be elected in the same way. Like if a woman ran for the prime minister in the UK and she had multiple ex-partners and ex-husbands and wasn't even sure how many children she'd actually had, there's no way she would get elected. There's just no way.

And as a final question, in all the research that you've done about president sex lives, not counting any who are living, was there any that were nice? Was there any that you looked into and you went, oh, he just really loved his partner and he just, yeah. And he was just happy to stay at home and there was no cheating. Was there anyone like that?

And as a final question, in all the research that you've done about president sex lives, not counting any who are living, was there any that were nice? Was there any that you looked into and you went, oh, he just really loved his partner and he just, yeah. And he was just happy to stay at home and there was no cheating. Was there anyone like that?

Eleanor, you have been wonderful to talk to. Again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your research, where can they find you?

Eleanor, you have been wonderful to talk to. Again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your research, where can they find you?

And we will get you back on when your next book is published. That sounds fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on again. You are wonderful.

And we will get you back on when your next book is published. That sounds fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on again. You are wonderful.

Do you think – it's kind of – it's a weird one because most of us have sex. Most of us have sex. But there is something about power and sex that goes together. Do you think with all the research you've done around kings and queens and presidents that something happens when you get given that much power when it comes to sex?

Do you think – it's kind of – it's a weird one because most of us have sex. Most of us have sex. But there is something about power and sex that goes together. Do you think with all the research you've done around kings and queens and presidents that something happens when you get given that much power when it comes to sex?

Wow.

Wow.

Oh my God.

Oh my God.

That makes sense to me because one of the questions I was going to ask you as we're going through this is why are they so stupid when it comes to sex? I know we haven't spoken about anyone in particular yet, but this will become a theme as we're going along. The recklessness of it and the entitlement of it and the fact that at any point, if this scandal got out, it could bring down a government.

That makes sense to me because one of the questions I was going to ask you as we're going through this is why are they so stupid when it comes to sex? I know we haven't spoken about anyone in particular yet, but this will become a theme as we're going along. The recklessness of it and the entitlement of it and the fact that at any point, if this scandal got out, it could bring down a government.

I've never understood why people risk that.

I've never understood why people risk that.

I was talking to my friend about this just the other day, and she just looked at me and she said, Kate, there is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And I thought, maybe that's true. But I'm glad that it actually has a name. What was that? Hubris syndrome. So let's talk about one of the big American presidents. The first one, actually, I think. George Washington.

I was talking to my friend about this just the other day, and she just looked at me and she said, Kate, there is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And I thought, maybe that's true. But I'm glad that it actually has a name. What was that? Hubris syndrome. So let's talk about one of the big American presidents. The first one, actually, I think. George Washington.

What do I know about George Washington? He was tall and he had false teeth. That's what I know about him.

What do I know about George Washington? He was tall and he had false teeth. That's what I know about him.

Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too scandalous. So there might not be too many skeletons in George's closet there.

Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too scandalous. So there might not be too many skeletons in George's closet there.

Okay. All right. So, George, okay. Let's move across to Thomas Jefferson. Hmm.

Okay. All right. So, George, okay. Let's move across to Thomas Jefferson. Hmm.

Was it scandalous at the time? I mean, I know that he was the president and his political enemies would have been on the hunt for anything that they could get their teeth into, but a slave owner having a family with an enslaved woman, how scandalous would that have been at the time?

Was it scandalous at the time? I mean, I know that he was the president and his political enemies would have been on the hunt for anything that they could get their teeth into, but a slave owner having a family with an enslaved woman, how scandalous would that have been at the time?

It's just awful. The thing that I can't get my head around that. I mean, you just keep going and it just gets worse and worse. But how could you enslave your own children? That blows my mind.

It's just awful. The thing that I can't get my head around that. I mean, you just keep going and it just gets worse and worse. But how could you enslave your own children? That blows my mind.

And what happened to Sally? What do we know about her, Sally Hemings? Was she ever freed? Did he ever free her?

And what happened to Sally? What do we know about her, Sally Hemings? Was she ever freed? Did he ever free her?

And at the time, this seems like it was quite a scandal. It seems like it's quite an open secret. But it was one of those kind of did they, didn't they, what was really going on? Is it just a vicious rumor for a long, long time? But they did actually prove this with DNA evidence, didn't they? That this is what happened. Yeah.

And at the time, this seems like it was quite a scandal. It seems like it's quite an open secret. But it was one of those kind of did they, didn't they, what was really going on? Is it just a vicious rumor for a long, long time? But they did actually prove this with DNA evidence, didn't they? That this is what happened. Yeah.

I think you can go out on a limb and say that. I think I would agree with you there, Eleanor. So Thomas Jefferson is a jerk, and that would be putting it very, very mildly. Is he the worst one that you found in your research? Was he the worst one that just made you go, oh, God, no, no. Put it away. Keep it in your pants, you horrible man.

I think you can go out on a limb and say that. I think I would agree with you there, Eleanor. So Thomas Jefferson is a jerk, and that would be putting it very, very mildly. Is he the worst one that you found in your research? Was he the worst one that just made you go, oh, God, no, no. Put it away. Keep it in your pants, you horrible man.

We have spoken about JFK before. And he didn't ever, ever stay faithful to his wife, Jackie. Like, not even a little bit, did he?

We have spoken about JFK before. And he didn't ever, ever stay faithful to his wife, Jackie. Like, not even a little bit, did he?

It is pathological. In the episode that you came on and we spoke specifically about JFK, when you're laying it all out, I'm actually hearing it thinking, these aren't the actions of a well man. This isn't normal behaviour by any means. This is weird behaviour.

It is pathological. In the episode that you came on and we spoke specifically about JFK, when you're laying it all out, I'm actually hearing it thinking, these aren't the actions of a well man. This isn't normal behaviour by any means. This is weird behaviour.

Oh no. Oh, I would hope that he did.

Oh no. Oh, I would hope that he did.

Jesus. Wow. So Jackie knew, I mean, how could she not know what he was up to? But she was, she kind of did that thing that a lot of women married to powerful men have done down the years and sort of made their peace with the fact that, yeah, if he stands still long enough, he's going to have a go at it.

Jesus. Wow. So Jackie knew, I mean, how could she not know what he was up to? But she was, she kind of did that thing that a lot of women married to powerful men have done down the years and sort of made their peace with the fact that, yeah, if he stands still long enough, he's going to have a go at it.

Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this very hard to have discovered, hang on, the president is running around America like a dog with two penises here. Why didn't that hit the press? Why wasn't that a scandal?

Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this very hard to have discovered, hang on, the president is running around America like a dog with two penises here. Why didn't that hit the press? Why wasn't that a scandal?

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Eleanor Harmon. How are you doing?

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Eleanor Harmon. How are you doing?

I know. I love every single one of them. But this one feels particularly pertinent because this episode will be going out on November the 5th, which in the UK is remember, remember the 5th of November when Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament. But for you guys, that's the day of the election. Bum, bum, bum. Ah!

Yeah, he's got to be up there, hasn't he? I don't even know what the word is because it's not the fact that he had a lot of sex. People can have a lot of sex. It's just sexually, morally repugnant with what he was doing. Cheating on his wife, taking advantage of people. You laid it out in the last episode that you came on. Not even being nice to these women that he's having an affair with, really.

He's just using them like a conveyor belt.

There you go. Look at that. Look at that.

Wow. And of course, you've got issues of national security. If he's having at it with anything with a pulse is, you know, sweet. What do they call them? Honey trap spies?

There is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. That and JFK just exemplify it. So he is an absolute dirtbag for all his politics. And he was great and he was fabulous, but he was still sexually a dirtbag. Let's talk gay presidents. Has there ever been a gay president, Eleanor?

Yes.

No. As a sex historian, how often do we read that? That a family found papers after they died and then was so horrified they had to burn it. And we're always going, no!

Doesn't it just feel like it's gone on forever and ever and ever? I mean, I look at this stuff and I think this is a gift for future historians. In 200 years, there'll be a different Kate Nell in a sat here trying to work out what the hell happened.

12 hours?

Oh, so Buchanan, for your money, and to be honest, I think I'm going to agree with you. He was a gay man and it seems at the time it was well known. Now there have been rumours, just whispery, sneaky rumours about Abraham Lincoln. Maybe he was a gay man. And what do you think of that?

Well, our lawyers have told us that we're not allowed to talk about the sex lives of living presidents or potential presidents. Which is really a shame. Which is a shame.

The evidence for Lincoln then seems to be that he had, historians always, people take the mick out of us for going, they were just close friends, but he did have a very close friendship with this guy. Yes. Was it Speed? And they shared a bed and it wasn't just for a night. It was for quite a while that they were doing that. But that's sort of the extent of the evidence for that, isn't it?

So there were no rumors at the time. It wasn't like with Buchanan where it was Miss Nancy and Miss Fancy. Not at all. Nobody at the time. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay, that's mildly disappointing. I was really hoping there that you would say, yeah, he was definitely a fabulous gay man. Do you know the one that I was really upset about was FDR. I thought he did stay faithful to his wife.

Oh my God, could we ever? So if anyone wants to hear that, you're going to have to come back in like 10 years. That's what you'll have to do. But you have written a book called Sex with Presidents, The Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House. What made you want to write this fascinating book, Eleanor?

One of the ones I want to talk to you about is we're kind of drawing it to where we are going to have to stop talking about people because they're still alive. But Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson. Now, one of the things I do know about, or at least I read it about him, apparently he had a huge penis and he called it jumbo and liked to show it to people.

Wow. Okay. Going forward for this, because I'm just thinking about powerful men, presidents and the sex that they have. Do you think that they will learn their lessons from history? Mentioning no names in particular, but there are current sex scandals around presidents or former presidents that could threaten to take down an organization. And I'm just wondering...

Now when we've got so much tabloid journalism and the internet and everything is under scrutiny in a way it's never been before, do you think it'll stop them?

And they would never be elected in the same way. Like if a woman ran for the prime minister in the UK and she had multiple ex-partners and ex-husbands and wasn't even sure how many children she'd actually had, there's no way she would get elected. There's just no way.

And as a final question, in all the research that you've done about president sex lives, not counting any who are living, was there any that were nice? Was there any that you looked into and you went, oh, he just really loved his partner and he just, yeah. And he was just happy to stay at home and there was no cheating. Was there anyone like that?

Eleanor, you have been wonderful to talk to. Again, you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your research, where can they find you?

And we will get you back on when your next book is published. That sounds fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on again. You are wonderful.

Do you think – it's kind of – it's a weird one because most of us have sex. Most of us have sex. But there is something about power and sex that goes together. Do you think with all the research you've done around kings and queens and presidents that something happens when you get given that much power when it comes to sex?

Wow.

Oh my God.

That makes sense to me because one of the questions I was going to ask you as we're going through this is why are they so stupid when it comes to sex? I know we haven't spoken about anyone in particular yet, but this will become a theme as we're going along. The recklessness of it and the entitlement of it and the fact that at any point, if this scandal got out, it could bring down a government.

I've never understood why people risk that.

I was talking to my friend about this just the other day, and she just looked at me and she said, Kate, there is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And I thought, maybe that's true. But I'm glad that it actually has a name. What was that? Hubris syndrome. So let's talk about one of the big American presidents. The first one, actually, I think. George Washington.

What do I know about George Washington? He was tall and he had false teeth. That's what I know about him.

Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too scandalous. So there might not be too many skeletons in George's closet there.

Okay. All right. So, George, okay. Let's move across to Thomas Jefferson. Hmm.

Was it scandalous at the time? I mean, I know that he was the president and his political enemies would have been on the hunt for anything that they could get their teeth into, but a slave owner having a family with an enslaved woman, how scandalous would that have been at the time?

It's just awful. The thing that I can't get my head around that. I mean, you just keep going and it just gets worse and worse. But how could you enslave your own children? That blows my mind.

And what happened to Sally? What do we know about her, Sally Hemings? Was she ever freed? Did he ever free her?

And at the time, this seems like it was quite a scandal. It seems like it's quite an open secret. But it was one of those kind of did they, didn't they, what was really going on? Is it just a vicious rumor for a long, long time? But they did actually prove this with DNA evidence, didn't they? That this is what happened. Yeah.

I think you can go out on a limb and say that. I think I would agree with you there, Eleanor. So Thomas Jefferson is a jerk, and that would be putting it very, very mildly. Is he the worst one that you found in your research? Was he the worst one that just made you go, oh, God, no, no. Put it away. Keep it in your pants, you horrible man.

We have spoken about JFK before. And he didn't ever, ever stay faithful to his wife, Jackie. Like, not even a little bit, did he?

It is pathological. In the episode that you came on and we spoke specifically about JFK, when you're laying it all out, I'm actually hearing it thinking, these aren't the actions of a well man. This isn't normal behaviour by any means. This is weird behaviour.

Oh no. Oh, I would hope that he did.

Jesus. Wow. So Jackie knew, I mean, how could she not know what he was up to? But she was, she kind of did that thing that a lot of women married to powerful men have done down the years and sort of made their peace with the fact that, yeah, if he stands still long enough, he's going to have a go at it.

Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this very hard to have discovered, hang on, the president is running around America like a dog with two penises here. Why didn't that hit the press? Why wasn't that a scandal?

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Eleanor Harmon. How are you doing?