Elena

So despite how much clearly she did not want to be on the stand, the defense still wanted to call her because she said something really interesting in an August 2023 interview with federal investigators. She told them that when she was observing video feed of the Canton PD garage on the day of John's death,

So despite how much clearly she did not want to be on the stand, the defense still wanted to call her because she said something really interesting in an August 2023 interview with federal investigators. She told them that when she was observing video feed of the Canton PD garage on the day of John's death,

She saw ATF agent Brian Higgins and former police chief Ken Berkowitz go into the garage together and alone with Karen's SUV for, quote, a wildly long time. Now, if that's true, that would be huge. That would be an eyewitness to two members of law enforcement, one of which is thought by many to be a suspect in John's murder.

She saw ATF agent Brian Higgins and former police chief Ken Berkowitz go into the garage together and alone with Karen's SUV for, quote, a wildly long time. Now, if that's true, that would be huge. That would be an eyewitness to two members of law enforcement, one of which is thought by many to be a suspect in John's murder.

She saw ATF agent Brian Higgins and former police chief Ken Berkowitz go into the garage together and alone with Karen's SUV for, quote, a wildly long time. Now, if that's true, that would be huge. That would be an eyewitness to two members of law enforcement, one of which is thought by many to be a suspect in John's murder.

That would be an eyewitness to both of them in the garage with Karen's car for a suspiciously long amount of time. But Debra says it's not true. She says she was shown evidence that she actually left Canton PD well before Karen's car even came into the garage. So she retracted her first statement and called it, quote, a false memory. Now I totally get not being able to remember things.

That would be an eyewitness to both of them in the garage with Karen's car for a suspiciously long amount of time. But Debra says it's not true. She says she was shown evidence that she actually left Canton PD well before Karen's car even came into the garage. So she retracted her first statement and called it, quote, a false memory. Now I totally get not being able to remember things.

That would be an eyewitness to both of them in the garage with Karen's car for a suspiciously long amount of time. But Debra says it's not true. She says she was shown evidence that she actually left Canton PD well before Karen's car even came into the garage. So she retracted her first statement and called it, quote, a false memory. Now I totally get not being able to remember things.

Forgetting where you put your phone, forgetting the name of your friend's husband, that kind of thing. And if she was saying she couldn't remember, like, exactly what day this happened or mixed up the details of something, something like that, I'd get it. But, like, completely making up a false memory with vivid details about who and where and how long?

Forgetting where you put your phone, forgetting the name of your friend's husband, that kind of thing. And if she was saying she couldn't remember, like, exactly what day this happened or mixed up the details of something, something like that, I'd get it. But, like, completely making up a false memory with vivid details about who and where and how long?

Forgetting where you put your phone, forgetting the name of your friend's husband, that kind of thing. And if she was saying she couldn't remember, like, exactly what day this happened or mixed up the details of something, something like that, I'd get it. But, like, completely making up a false memory with vivid details about who and where and how long?

Is she saying she basically hallucinated all of that? That seems a lot less likely to me. Usually, we forget things, yes, but not falsely remember something that never even happened. Debra also added that the defense team threatened to charge her with perjury if she didn't stick to her original story.

Is she saying she basically hallucinated all of that? That seems a lot less likely to me. Usually, we forget things, yes, but not falsely remember something that never even happened. Debra also added that the defense team threatened to charge her with perjury if she didn't stick to her original story.

Is she saying she basically hallucinated all of that? That seems a lot less likely to me. Usually, we forget things, yes, but not falsely remember something that never even happened. Debra also added that the defense team threatened to charge her with perjury if she didn't stick to her original story.

On a phone call with the defense, she said, quote, they became very aggressive, raised their voices. And the one word I can very definitely remember is that they said they would charge me with perjury. Now, on Redirect, Jackson pointed out that defense attorneys can't actually press charges against people. They're not members of law enforcement.

On a phone call with the defense, she said, quote, they became very aggressive, raised their voices. And the one word I can very definitely remember is that they said they would charge me with perjury. Now, on Redirect, Jackson pointed out that defense attorneys can't actually press charges against people. They're not members of law enforcement.

On a phone call with the defense, she said, quote, they became very aggressive, raised their voices. And the one word I can very definitely remember is that they said they would charge me with perjury. Now, on Redirect, Jackson pointed out that defense attorneys can't actually press charges against people. They're not members of law enforcement.

But I actually don't doubt that the defense used the word perjury when talking to Dever. I can totally picture that going down. And is it a bad look for the defense to be aggressive with witnesses, to be potentially threatening them? Yeah, it is.

But I actually don't doubt that the defense used the word perjury when talking to Dever. I can totally picture that going down. And is it a bad look for the defense to be aggressive with witnesses, to be potentially threatening them? Yeah, it is.

But I actually don't doubt that the defense used the word perjury when talking to Dever. I can totally picture that going down. And is it a bad look for the defense to be aggressive with witnesses, to be potentially threatening them? Yeah, it is.