Eliza Orlins

And so it would be hard to imagine them standing up on behalf of protesters against if he brought in, say, you know, Federal Forces, National Guard, or whatever.

But I do think it is...

Very interesting to see how Chicago has reacted.

You know, I've been wildly impressed by J.B.

Pritzker and, you know, all the folks in Chicago, in Illinois, who have really stood up and said, nope, not in our city, not in our state.

You know, I think that the big issue that we see and, like, the fact that so many people say, oh, but this thing, this thing is against the law.

He can't do that.

He can't do that.

Okay, but he's doing it.

Right.

Like, does it matter?

And, like, is anyone going to stop him?

And I think...

I mean, just yesterday, I was listening to oral arguments in front of the Supreme Court around the Louisiana Voting Rights Act gerrymandering case.

And it looks as though the conservative justices are going to gut the rest of the Voting Rights Act.

I mean, it is just...

I mean, it's fucking devastating, but it's what's happening right now.

So even if laws are on the books that we think protect us, protect our civil rights, protect our, you know, civil liberties, we are devolving into extreme authoritarianism.

And so laws...

don't matter as much as they used to.

You know, I love that you cited the three and a half percent, like Dr. Erica Chenoweth's research really gives me a lot of hope.

And I think that, you know, knowing that since, what does she say, since the night, like 1900 or since

that any time 3.5% of the population has engaged in sustained nonviolent resistance, they've never failed to defeat authoritarianism.

So that is what I'm hoping for, and that's why I hope we see, you know, at least 10 million people out there on Saturday.

I guess in theory...

Who's the aggrieved party?

It would, I guess, be... Would it be the cities?

I guess.

But I don't... I don't know enough.

Honestly, I would have to, like, look up, like, what that would...

what that would entail in terms of how... I mean, obviously, the act, I know, limits the federal government's ability to militarize domestic law enforcement, but I think how it would be used or how it could be brought in court is something that is...

Not 100% clear to me.

Yeah, listen, I think that a lot of folks think about being surveilled.

So listen, what I always tell folks, and I think this is good advice across the board forever and ever, is don't talk to the cops.

The law enforcement is not there to help you.

They are not your friends.

If they are questioning you, you say, am I free to leave?

If you are free to leave, leave.

If you are not free to leave, say, I cannot speak to you without my lawyer present.

I do not want to talk to you without my lawyer present.

I will not speak to you.

And I know this.

You have the right to remain silent.

You need to use it.

No one has ever talked their way out of being arrested.

No one has ever talked their way out of being, you know, prosecuted.

I quite literally gave a TED Talk earlier this year on unlawful surveillance and the erosion of the Fourth Amendment.

Like you think that you will be able to help yourself, but you won't.

Just don't say anything.

If they've made a decision to arrest you, then just please, please, please use your right to remain silent.

And people say, but I didn't commit a crime or I'm a U.S.

Listen, I would not purport to tell anyone how to raise their children or how to parent.

I definitely was involved in politics at a very young age, was exposed to this stuff.

But look how I turned out.

So, you know, that's a thing that other people should decide.

But I think that for the most part, these protests have been incredibly dangerous.

peaceful and, you know, having pictures of your kid with a sign and being able to show your grandkids and be like, you were there.

And I was there.

And like, look at me, I was little and I was there.

And like having that, I think is really, really special.

And like most of this is like in the middle of the day on a Saturday, like this is going to be 11 a.m.

citizen.

in Times Square.

Like, you know, I assume I will see a lot of kids out there.

I saw a lot of kids out there the last time and I

I presume I will see a lot of kids out there this time.

You know, there will be people in costumes.

What does it matter that they have access to my location data?

There's a lot of, I think, you know, this is a much more joyful than you would expect given the severity of what we are all experiencing.

I think like joy as an act of resistance, like last time there was music and dancing and, you know, people will be in costumes and signs and everything.

And so I think that,

I think that for the most part, it's a safe atmosphere for children, but I think it's an individual decision and everyone knows what's right for their family.

What does it matter that...

Absolutely.

Definitely.

And thanks for chatting about this stuff.

It's really so critical and appreciate all that you do.

Okay.

you know, that my DMV records or the tolls that I pay or, you know, that I'm being pinged on my cell site location.

Take care.

Why does that matter?

Well, it matters because as we've seen with Trump's executive orders, you know, anyone who is considered Antifa,

could be placed on a list, could be criminalized, could be at some point rounded up, prosecuted, jailed.

We don't know at this point.

So everyone should be thinking about the ways in which they can protect themselves and protect their neighbors because we all have people in our lives who we love, who are non-citizens, who are green card holders, who are visa holders, who are DACA recipients.

I mean, guaranteed every single person we...

On this live, you know, every single person watching this knows and loves someone who is less safe than they are.

Well, so it is a massive surveillance network.

I mean, and it doesn't just encompass the things that would be top of mind, you know, which is why I tell folks often, if you're going to a protest, the best thing you can do is leave your phone at home.

And that is the number one safest thing you can do because anything, anytime you open an app that you have given location permissions to, that app is tracking you at that location.

So anything as little as like...

opening the weather app on your phone is tracking your location.

So it's extremely simple.

And I see folks in the comments saying you could use a Faraday bag, but those are not fail safe.

It's not, you know, the safest thing you can do is not bring your cellular phone, you know, especially a smartphone to any location where you could be tracked, you know, the, the, but furthermore, like there are these databases, these commercial databases, and now it's,

This is how they're circumventing needing warrants or needing any type of probable cause or reasonable suspicion to infringe on your rights.

But they are quite literally buying up these commercial databases and receiving your phone number, your email address, your family's location.

They're pulling up your driver's license, your water bill, your phone records.

It's all part of this massive surveillance network, even if you've done nothing wrong.

And unlike other agencies, you know, there's almost no transparency or accountability when it comes to ICE.

Well, so what they are doing, or at least what has been announced, is that they are going to be massively funding real-time surveillance.

So they're going to have these kind of centers where folks are there.

And if they have high-interest targets, they will be in real time tracking their social media, tracking them, trying to see where they are.

You know, they have license plate readers.

If you go through...

any, you know, in New York to pay tolls, they have, you know, they have cameras that click your license plate as you go through, easy pass, whatever, you know, and so folks are getting tracked in real time.

And, you know, they are building out this infrastructure to, to like really surveil people and track them in the moment.

Absolutely.

It definitely is.

And listen, it's not the first time.

It's not, you know, when post 9-11, as you and I remember, you know, the FISA courts, like basically the warrants that were issued were rubber stamped.

I think not a single one.

of the however many tens of thousands were that were requested was ever rejected and so they were able to do this kind of surveillance even if the warrant was just for show and now in a lot of ways those warrants are not even required you know i think so much of what we think of like the way in which the fourth amendment was written to prevent us from unlawful searches and seizures was

to protect us from physical searches.

Because when it was written, it was like, oh, you think about, oh, are they going to search my person, my pockets, my purse, my car, my home?

You know, those physical searches of like being patted down on the street or having your vehicle or your home searched, of course they require, you know, that's an intrusion.

But these digital searches that are so much more invisible, you know, it's much harder to have that

ability to like see that it's happening and because there's so little transparency and because of these like horrible data brokers who kind of like buy up this information they've kind of found a way to circumvent these these procedures that are in place to protect our constitutional rights and so they're able to do these warrantless searches

So I think that, you know, for the folks who've read history books, you know that it's like – or everyone has heard the, well, they first – they came for the X. And whenever there's a certain group that is first targeted, you know, which in this case we're talking about immigrants, you know, unlawful – whatever they call them, illegal immigrants, you know, people who have come in without inspection or who are currently undocumented, and that is –

that has always throughout history been a stepping stone to head to other people next.

You know, next up is journalists who cover this administration in a way they don't like.

Next up is dissenters and protesters and people who speak out against this administration.

Like, David, you and I are going to be, we're on lists already.

We're going to be, you know, we're going to be like

not the first group or the second group, but like we're going to be rounded up if they start coming for people who are out there using our platforms to speak out against this administration.

And I think that, you know, when we see them normalizing this stuff and militarizing and terrorizing communities, you know, we should all be afraid because they are going to repurpose this to come after dissenters and anyone who is protesting.

You know, I think that it all kind of plays into this culture of power and fear and intimidation.

And I think, you know, the idea is...

for folks to comply in advance, to be afraid to speak out, to be afraid to go to protests.

And I personally, you know, they will have to drag me away kicking and screaming because I'm not going to shut up.

I'm not going to stop going to protests.

I'm not going to stop speaking out.

But I also recognize the level of privilege I have both as a white woman, a U.S.

citizen, an attorney.

You know, I have a lot of things that for me, I have already decided that this is a thing that I'm going to do.

Well, David, I'm thrilled that we're having this conversation because as horrible of a topic as this is, like it genuinely couldn't be more imperative that folks understand what is going on and how they can protect themselves.

But for some folks...

you know, the fear will prevent them from reporting crimes if they are the victim of crimes.

It will prevent them from seeking medical care or, you know, health care if they are sick or need help.

It will prevent them from accessing education.

You know, we've already seen people too afraid to go to school and there being big absences.

So it chills communities in that way.

But then also, I think, you know, the...

the way that this enables the administration to like come after people and prosecute them.

And, and like, let's say, you know, this flag burning thing, of course it's still legal to burn a flag, but his order is written in such a way that it's like, okay, but even if it's legal to burn a flag, the way that they arrested the veteran who burned the flag in Lafayette park was by saying, having an open flame in a city park is,

And then they're going to say, oh, no, it was disorderly conduct.

It was obstruction of governmental administration.

You know, the amount of times I've in my career seen cops charge someone with with OGA, we call it obstruction of governmental administration.

It's like, you know, when you don't have a crime to charge someone with, you charge them with OGA disorderly conduct and then resisting arrest because they're like, what am I being arrested for?

And then they're resisting.

So it's like this fits into a broader authoritarian infrastructure.

You know, I think that mass surveillance has been going on for a very long time, but the ways in which it is getting more and more nefarious is fascinating.

You know, listen, I think that protecting yourself and your neighbors means, you know, just if you do bring your phone because you decide you want to, listen, I'll have my phone with me, but don't post pictures of other people's faces because, you know, you don't want to endanger anyone else.

I would say...

Be aware that they want to do anything they can to undermine these protests, and they want to paint us as violent rioters, radicals, the radical—capital R, capital L—radical left.

And so—

don't engage if people are trying to agitate because I think that inevitably there will be agitators who try to infiltrate and the first no kings was incredibly peaceful I mean we had millions of people out on the streets of New York City and I don't even think a single arrest was I mean it really was so peaceful and so I would just say like don't engage with agitators um

Deeply alarming.

And so everyone should be aware of this big like dragnet that they've created and the ways in which they're funding it so that they can keep eyes on every single thing that you do in your life, essentially.

you know, I know that a bunch of us are planning on like wearing inflatables because like they're trying to paint us as that.

And I think that like combating it with humor, the folks who are going to show up in like their inflatable frog costumes and their inflatable aliens and chickens and everything else, it's really like, it's showing like we, you can't, you can't psychologically intimidate us out of showing up and supporting our communities and showing how we are not okay with this.

Definitely, because I think that it would be very – I mean, listen, I can't really picture that happening here.

I don't – you know, I can't speak for other cities, but I know in New York, the NYPD –

who largely come in and police a city in which they don't live, who come in from Nassau County, Suffolk County, and Staten Island, you know, are themselves very pro-Trump.