Emily Kwong (host, with guest Nell Greenfield‑Boyce also speaking within these segments)

And they also use that data to get people to make changes, like to convince building managers to do stuff.

That's powerful.

I mean, that's the way to change something, right, is to gather information, to gather data.

This is important work they're doing.

So what kind of changes do they want to see from cities and building managers?

Well, one thing, like I said, is turning off nighttime lights or you could add new kinds of window treatments.

OK, so I was talking to Brian Lenz.

He's with the American Bird Conservancy.

And he told me, like, you know, in the past, not too long ago, it wasn't clear how to fix windows.

Oh, no, this is taking me right back to childhood.

My mom slapped a bunch of hawk decals on our kitchen window in the hope that birds would be spared.

Sounds like there are better solutions out there.

What are they?

So there's been a lot of studies.

OK, there's been years of research.

There's new kinds of glass.

And now they know that if you've got existing windows you want to treat.

You need like a pattern of dots or lines that's a certain size, basically, so the birds won't think they can fly through.

And this is effective.

Like to see that, all you need to do is look at this convention center in Chicago.