Ezra Klein

And so I've been concerned by the trends in China policy for a while, not because I think China is a pure or good actor, but because I think the politics have aligned around hostility and escalation in a way that can become self-reinforcing. And I worry about it because I think American policy is now outdated. It wants a redo of the 90s or the 2000s. It is focused on its mistakes in the past.

And so I've been concerned by the trends in China policy for a while, not because I think China is a pure or good actor, but because I think the politics have aligned around hostility and escalation in a way that can become self-reinforcing. And I worry about it because I think American policy is now outdated. It wants a redo of the 90s or the 2000s. It is focused on its mistakes in the past.

It is out of touch with what China is in the present. One person who I've seen questioning this consensus more and more loudly is my New York Times colleague, Tom Friedman. I talked to him after a recent trip he took to China. And I remember the first thing he said to me. He said, we're screwed. We are getting this wrong. And then he explained why.

It is out of touch with what China is in the present. One person who I've seen questioning this consensus more and more loudly is my New York Times colleague, Tom Friedman. I talked to him after a recent trip he took to China. And I remember the first thing he said to me. He said, we're screwed. We are getting this wrong. And then he explained why.

And I thought it'd be good for everyone to hear what it was he told me. Not because everyone has to agree with Tom's take on this, but if the consensus politics is leading us where Trump has gone, maybe it's time to hear some voices that are questioning that consensus. As always, my email, ezraklineshow at nytimes.com. Tom Friedman, welcome to the show.

And I thought it'd be good for everyone to hear what it was he told me. Not because everyone has to agree with Tom's take on this, but if the consensus politics is leading us where Trump has gone, maybe it's time to hear some voices that are questioning that consensus. As always, my email, ezraklineshow at nytimes.com. Tom Friedman, welcome to the show.

So you said something in one of your recent columns that struck me, which is that the pandemic was bad for many things. But one of the things it was particularly bad for that is underrated is our ability to understand China.

So you said something in one of your recent columns that struck me, which is that the pandemic was bad for many things. But one of the things it was particularly bad for that is underrated is our ability to understand China.

A point I've heard you make is that in that six-year period, there was only one congressional delegation that went to China. And you said this in a column too, that typically in America, the problem right now in our politics is that we are too divided on issues. It makes it hard to discuss them in any kind of comprehensible fashion.

A point I've heard you make is that in that six-year period, there was only one congressional delegation that went to China. And you said this in a column too, that typically in America, the problem right now in our politics is that we are too divided on issues. It makes it hard to discuss them in any kind of comprehensible fashion.

But that on China, on this issue specifically, we have too much consensus. How would you describe the bipartisan Washington consensus on China today?

But that on China, on this issue specifically, we have too much consensus. How would you describe the bipartisan Washington consensus on China today?

You mentioned it in terms of the reduction in these cross-border exchanges, technology exchanges, student exchanges. The other side of that story I have heard from Americans, from business leaders, from other people in power was the... growing belief, recognition that China had been conducting a massive level of industrial and even educational and political espionage against America.

You mentioned it in terms of the reduction in these cross-border exchanges, technology exchanges, student exchanges. The other side of that story I have heard from Americans, from business leaders, from other people in power was the... growing belief, recognition that China had been conducting a massive level of industrial and even educational and political espionage against America.

And some of the fears about Chinese students studying here, about hiring Chinese workers here, was a feeling that at a high level, though not predictable to any individual person, was a lot of this was leading to spying, was leading to the theft of technological secrets. And connected to that, a belief that that was what was behind China's rise.

And some of the fears about Chinese students studying here, about hiring Chinese workers here, was a feeling that at a high level, though not predictable to any individual person, was a lot of this was leading to spying, was leading to the theft of technological secrets. And connected to that, a belief that that was what was behind China's rise.

That China wasn't just rising, that what they were doing was stealing from us and building on top of that. You have this quote from Senator Josh Hawley, a Republican influential on foreign affairs, that China can't really innovate. They could just steal from us. So I'm curious how you think that played into it.

That China wasn't just rising, that what they were doing was stealing from us and building on top of that. You have this quote from Senator Josh Hawley, a Republican influential on foreign affairs, that China can't really innovate. They could just steal from us. So I'm curious how you think that played into it.

you're going to get run over. So this conversation we're having emerges out of a conversation we had a little bit randomly on the phone. You had just come from China and I had just come back from book tour. And we were talking about something else, but then I asked you how your China trip was. And what you said to me basically was... Ezra, you have no idea how screwed we are.

you're going to get run over. So this conversation we're having emerges out of a conversation we had a little bit randomly on the phone. You had just come from China and I had just come back from book tour. And we were talking about something else, but then I asked you how your China trip was. And what you said to me basically was... Ezra, you have no idea how screwed we are.