Ezra Klein

That politics is very hard to practice well right now.

And the liberals who've done it really well, right, you think about, say, you know, Barack Obama in 2008, you know, are really able to

On the one hand, hold a vision of moral progress, which can be a divisive vision, and also hold a vision of an ethic of generosity and decency towards both the people we agree with and the people we don't agree with.

And I think when the liberal elites, as you described them, and not wrongly, but I think in general, one place that elites of all parties and persuasions tend to go very wrong is in losing that sense that they are part of a citizenry and instead seeing themselves as leaders who know what is best for everybody else.

And balancing those commitments inside of liberalism, the commitment to moral progress, to expanding freedom,

to giving people a better life and the commitment to the kinds of virtues needed to make a complex society thrive without people feeling oppressed or condescended to or pushed out by you.

I think that balance, there's not one policy that does it.

It's a very, very difficult balance.

But I think the great liberals forget how to do that well.

I mean, you talked about Lincoln earlier, and I mean, he, to think about somebody holding together opposites, right?

Leading a civil war, bloodiest war ever on American soil.

And also doing so within an ethic of constantly trying to reach out and see that there is some solidarity on the other side of this, that there's some way to rediscover bonds of commonality.

I mean, it's why his speeches are read today, not because they're bloodthirsty, but because amidst all that blood, they're not.

I think it's a good place to end.

Always our final question.

What are three books you'd recommend to the audience?

Liberals always scratching each other's back.

Helena Rosenblatt, thank you very much.

This episode of The Ezra Klein Show is produced by Jack McCordick.

Our recording engineer is Amin Sahota.