Fiona Hill

And then as a result of that, they wouldn't take action because they took offence at what he said.

So it was a kind of then a way of, could you find some other means of

massaging this communication to go and make it effective, which we would always try to focus on.

Because it's kind of the delivery.

But the actual message was often spot on in those kinds of issues.

I mean, he was actually highlighting these ridiculous discrepancies between what people said and what they actually did.

Yeah, you don't do it through gratuitous insults and incitement to violence.

That's one of the things you just do.

You don't get anywhere on that front.

Tough measures and maximum pressure often does work.

Because there were often times where that kind of relentless nagging about something or constantly raising it actually did have results where it hadn't previously.

So there's the maximum pressure

If it kind of kept on it in the right way and often when we were coming in behind on pushing on issues related to NATO or other things in this same sphere, it would actually have an effect.

It just doesn't get talked about because it gets overshadowed by all of the other kind of stuff around this and the way that he interacted with people and treated people.

Look, I think there is a straight line between that whole series of episodes and the current war in Ukraine.

Because Vladimir Putin and the people around him in the Kremlin

concluded that the U.S.

did not care one little bit about Ukraine and it was just a game.

For Trump, it was a personal game.

He was basically trying to get Volodymyr Zelensky to do him a personal favor related to his desire to stay on in power in the 2020 election.