Francesca

Hi.

Hi.

This is me. I'm so nervous. Oh, don't be nervous.

This is me. I'm so nervous. Oh, don't be nervous.

People call me Fran or my dad calls me Frankie. Oh, I love that. That's so cute. I used to hate it, but I like it now.

People call me Fran or my dad calls me Frankie. Oh, I love that. That's so cute. I used to hate it, but I like it now.

Oh, did you make a fort for us? I did, and I've really found my center in here because I was really nervous. And it feels good just to sit here in the slight dark. Cozy.

Oh, did you make a fort for us? I did, and I've really found my center in here because I was really nervous. And it feels good just to sit here in the slight dark. Cozy.

I tried, but they aren't working.

I tried, but they aren't working.

No, I'm in Big Sky, Montana.

No, I'm in Big Sky, Montana.

I sure do.

I sure do.

Yeah, it's too dangerous. But I want you to be.

Yeah, it's too dangerous. But I want you to be.

He's everyone's dad. No, you want to see my dad? That's my dad. Oh. Oh, that's a sweet picture. So if you're wondering who joined the cult, it was these people.

He's everyone's dad. No, you want to see my dad? That's my dad. Oh. Oh, that's a sweet picture. So if you're wondering who joined the cult, it was these people.

I feel like they're in Italy.

I feel like they're in Italy.

I don't think so. I'm guessing they're in Texas.

I don't think so. I'm guessing they're in Texas.

Have you watched The Pit? I haven't seen The Pit.

Have you watched The Pit? I haven't seen The Pit.

They met these two people. Their names were Trina and Steven. They met them at a rebirthing seminar. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of that. I don't really know what it is either. It's just where you practice redo. It was the early 80s. Wait, you're reenacting your own birth? So that if you had any trauma coming in, you can get rid of it.

They met these two people. Their names were Trina and Steven. They met them at a rebirthing seminar. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of that. I don't really know what it is either. It's just where you practice redo. It was the early 80s. Wait, you're reenacting your own birth? So that if you had any trauma coming in, you can get rid of it.

They joined Trina and Steven because Trina believed she could transfer a spirit through her body. A dead transmedium is what she was called. So she would leave her body and then the spirit would take over. And that's what I did on Sundays. pretty much from when I was born until I was 18. Oh my God.

They joined Trina and Steven because Trina believed she could transfer a spirit through her body. A dead transmedium is what she was called. So she would leave her body and then the spirit would take over. And that's what I did on Sundays. pretty much from when I was born until I was 18. Oh my God.

So they collected a bunch of people. It was called the collective was an actual collective. So they all shared money and everything. But by the time I was born, it was not so much a collective. Everyone had their own money.

So they collected a bunch of people. It was called the collective was an actual collective. So they all shared money and everything. But by the time I was born, it was not so much a collective. Everyone had their own money.

It was in Arizona. We went to trance every Sunday. It was like a dimly lit room. Everyone entered and we would sing, which was my favorite part. It was the only part that made sense to me. So we would sing a song and then she would meditate and then the spirit would come through. Dr. Duran, who was a 14th century doctor. And basically he would say a sermon and

It was in Arizona. We went to trance every Sunday. It was like a dimly lit room. Everyone entered and we would sing, which was my favorite part. It was the only part that made sense to me. So we would sing a song and then she would meditate and then the spirit would come through. Dr. Duran, who was a 14th century doctor. And basically he would say a sermon and

And then he would open up for questions. So people basically sought advice from him.

And then he would open up for questions. So people basically sought advice from him.

A hundred at its peak. When I was growing up, it was probably more like 50.

A hundred at its peak. When I was growing up, it was probably more like 50.

We had this trance room that was locked out, no windows or anything because she needed darkness. But it wasn't so dark that you couldn't see her. And it's so hard because this was real for all of us, but it wasn't, obviously. But I grew up in it, so it was all I knew. Yeah. Yeah.

We had this trance room that was locked out, no windows or anything because she needed darkness. But it wasn't so dark that you couldn't see her. And it's so hard because this was real for all of us, but it wasn't, obviously. But I grew up in it, so it was all I knew. Yeah. Yeah.

Later on when I got older. But no, they created chaos so that you just wanted to be a part of this family. So Trina and Steven had kids and grandkids. And there was a hierarchy. They were treated better than my family. It was all based on money, and I realize that now. They targeted people who had rich families. And my mom had wealthy parents. My dad didn't.

Later on when I got older. But no, they created chaos so that you just wanted to be a part of this family. So Trina and Steven had kids and grandkids. And there was a hierarchy. They were treated better than my family. It was all based on money, and I realize that now. They targeted people who had rich families. And my mom had wealthy parents. My dad didn't.

But my parents weren't giving any money because my grandparents wouldn't provide. So they were basically just treated like the lowest on the totem pole. My mom and dad never had a chance.

But my parents weren't giving any money because my grandparents wouldn't provide. So they were basically just treated like the lowest on the totem pole. My mom and dad never had a chance.

We were told that we are the closest to God because we're with the spirit in this lifetime. So it did have some like Buddhist principles. We believed in reincarnation and we believe that this life was our last because we were with the spirit. So we were special.

We were told that we are the closest to God because we're with the spirit in this lifetime. So it did have some like Buddhist principles. We believed in reincarnation and we believe that this life was our last because we were with the spirit. So we were special.

really, we would make fun of it a little bit. So trans, you never knew what you were going to get. Sometimes it was him like, oh my God, you guys need to lighten up and have a party. Literally the spirit talking through her was telling us this, or he would rip people to shreds.

really, we would make fun of it a little bit. So trans, you never knew what you were going to get. Sometimes it was him like, oh my God, you guys need to lighten up and have a party. Literally the spirit talking through her was telling us this, or he would rip people to shreds.

And then after trans, sometimes there were like processes where the adults would all get together and they would all drink alcohol and just like rip each other. A new one. Wow. I wasn't there. I was too young, but I was usually babysitting the kids. By the time they got home, you could tell they had been crying and just unregulated.

And then after trans, sometimes there were like processes where the adults would all get together and they would all drink alcohol and just like rip each other. A new one. Wow. I wasn't there. I was too young, but I was usually babysitting the kids. By the time they got home, you could tell they had been crying and just unregulated.

People would make stuff up just to like get the attention off of them.

People would make stuff up just to like get the attention off of them.

Yeah, it was pretty bad. There were good parts like growing up in Tono Village. I had a bunch of friends and it was dirt roads and it was a good place to grow up, but it was pretty toxic. We had our own school. You weren't encouraged to go out and get a degree or anything. You were encouraged to just stay small. Service was a big thing.

Yeah, it was pretty bad. There were good parts like growing up in Tono Village. I had a bunch of friends and it was dirt roads and it was a good place to grow up, but it was pretty toxic. We had our own school. You weren't encouraged to go out and get a degree or anything. You were encouraged to just stay small. Service was a big thing.

People who weren't even qualified would be teaching at the school with no pay.

People who weren't even qualified would be teaching at the school with no pay.

I was so afraid of everybody. It was so scary. But also I wanted their approval so bad. But my dad was always kind of like half in, half out. He didn't actually want to go. He did it for my mom. And so when I was seven, they divorced and he kind of left the community. But even before that, he was just painted as a terrible person because he didn't want to be there. And that showed.

I was so afraid of everybody. It was so scary. But also I wanted their approval so bad. But my dad was always kind of like half in, half out. He didn't actually want to go. He did it for my mom. And so when I was seven, they divorced and he kind of left the community. But even before that, he was just painted as a terrible person because he didn't want to be there. And that showed.

I knew my dad was a good guy. I loved him, but people would talk crap about him in front of me.

I knew my dad was a good guy. I loved him, but people would talk crap about him in front of me.

Yeah. That was part of the problem with trance was you were like asking a question and then you're airing all of your shit in front of everybody and in front of the kids.

Yeah. That was part of the problem with trance was you were like asking a question and then you're airing all of your shit in front of everybody and in front of the kids.

At first, she wanted a community. And then they end up creating chaos to where it's like if you leave the community, you're leaving all of your friends behind.

At first, she wanted a community. And then they end up creating chaos to where it's like if you leave the community, you're leaving all of your friends behind.

your family you'll lose everything and that's what they do they make it so that you can't leave there were people who left but it sounds easy to just pick up and leave but it's not you don't have anything yeah yeah starting from scratch how far away did your dad move he just moved down to phoenix area so i would still see him but not very often so later on when i was 11 years old

your family you'll lose everything and that's what they do they make it so that you can't leave there were people who left but it sounds easy to just pick up and leave but it's not you don't have anything yeah yeah starting from scratch how far away did your dad move he just moved down to phoenix area so i would still see him but not very often so later on when i was 11 years old

My mom decided to get a boyfriend who did not want to be in the community. It was just kind of looked down upon to have a boyfriend at all. And he was a Vietnam vet. He was sort of abusive. So I had to live with him for a little bit. Basically, my mom was shunned because she wanted to be with this man who didn't want to be in the community.

My mom decided to get a boyfriend who did not want to be in the community. It was just kind of looked down upon to have a boyfriend at all. And he was a Vietnam vet. He was sort of abusive. So I had to live with him for a little bit. Basically, my mom was shunned because she wanted to be with this man who didn't want to be in the community.

So there was a point around that time where I was also shunned. The whole community was having Thanksgiving at Trina and Stephen's house. And I wasn't allowed to go. I like met with my sister and she's like, Fran, you're not allowed. My oldest sister, I'm the youngest of five, but she was my person when my mom wasn't around. Why was she allowed to go? Because she had her own life.

So there was a point around that time where I was also shunned. The whole community was having Thanksgiving at Trina and Stephen's house. And I wasn't allowed to go. I like met with my sister and she's like, Fran, you're not allowed. My oldest sister, I'm the youngest of five, but she was my person when my mom wasn't around. Why was she allowed to go? Because she had her own life.

She actually got pregnant at 16. That was part of it, too. You get married and you have babies, assigned marriages. She had a baby at 16 because they told her, don't wear a condom, it hurts. Oh!

She actually got pregnant at 16. That was part of it, too. You get married and you have babies, assigned marriages. She had a baby at 16 because they told her, don't wear a condom, it hurts. Oh!

He was only a couple years older than her, but they ended up getting married and then torn apart because one of the leader's daughters wanted to marry the guy she was with.

He was only a couple years older than her, but they ended up getting married and then torn apart because one of the leader's daughters wanted to marry the guy she was with.

Yeah, my sister's the real MVP. She's the firstborn child of the cult, and I say it shows. So she told me I can't go. They're mad at my mom. And I was like heartbroken about that. So later on, I'm going to feed my horses and I'm walking past Trina and Stephen's houses, which is where everyone was gathered. And my friend Scout came outside and she's like, Fran, what are you doing?

Yeah, my sister's the real MVP. She's the firstborn child of the cult, and I say it shows. So she told me I can't go. They're mad at my mom. And I was like heartbroken about that. So later on, I'm going to feed my horses and I'm walking past Trina and Stephen's houses, which is where everyone was gathered. And my friend Scout came outside and she's like, Fran, what are you doing?

Innocently, she's like, come on, we're all having a party. And I was like, okay. So I go up the stairs and I get abused by Stephen Camp, who is the leader. He just screamed at me in front of everyone, told me that I can't be there. I need to go home. And I'm 11 years old. Oh, my God. What kind of... Oh, my God.

Innocently, she's like, come on, we're all having a party. And I was like, okay. So I go up the stairs and I get abused by Stephen Camp, who is the leader. He just screamed at me in front of everyone, told me that I can't be there. I need to go home. And I'm 11 years old. Oh, my God. What kind of... Oh, my God.

Oh, he was a scary, scary guy. I don't even remember, to be honest, what I did after that. It was... pretty traumatizing. So I had moved out of the house because of the guy she was with. So I moved in with my sister for a little while and then I was going to move back. I was told this later, but Paul, her boyfriend, didn't want me to move back in. And so he asked her for a divorce.

Oh, he was a scary, scary guy. I don't even remember, to be honest, what I did after that. It was... pretty traumatizing. So I had moved out of the house because of the guy she was with. So I moved in with my sister for a little while and then I was going to move back. I was told this later, but Paul, her boyfriend, didn't want me to move back in. And so he asked her for a divorce.

And then after that, my mom took her own life.

And then after that, my mom took her own life.

You've really been through the wringer. After my mom died. It was kind of like my family was finally in it. We were finally treated better, which is just absolutely crazy.

You've really been through the wringer. After my mom died. It was kind of like my family was finally in it. We were finally treated better, which is just absolutely crazy.

I think they felt guilty. Basically, she just lost her whole support system because the women in the family all stopped talking to her. And then the guy that she was doing it for wanted to leave her.

I think they felt guilty. Basically, she just lost her whole support system because the women in the family all stopped talking to her. And then the guy that she was doing it for wanted to leave her.

I was

I was

It was rough. I don't blame them for it, but I do think my mom dying did shatter the glass a little. Had people questioning, what the fuck are we doing here? And then I didn't actually leave myself because I was young, but I ended up living with multiple different families, plus my sister. And it just got worse. Once I was living with the cult leader's daughter and they were really sweet.

It was rough. I don't blame them for it, but I do think my mom dying did shatter the glass a little. Had people questioning, what the fuck are we doing here? And then I didn't actually leave myself because I was young, but I ended up living with multiple different families, plus my sister. And it just got worse. Once I was living with the cult leader's daughter and they were really sweet.

Like everyone's a victim to this, I think, including their children. I had a boyfriend at 15. I went to trance one time and I got called a whore in trance. My spirit called me a whore.

Like everyone's a victim to this, I think, including their children. I had a boyfriend at 15. I went to trance one time and I got called a whore in trance. My spirit called me a whore.

No, it was kind of a joke like, oh, you guys live in Tono Village. You guys are a part of that cult. And we're like, yeah, you guys think it's a cult. It's not. I listened to a recent recording of a trance, which it's the only one I have. I don't know where they all are because they recorded them all. In the recording, he says... Yeah, because everyone out there thinks we're a cult. We're not.

No, it was kind of a joke like, oh, you guys live in Tono Village. You guys are a part of that cult. And we're like, yeah, you guys think it's a cult. It's not. I listened to a recent recording of a trance, which it's the only one I have. I don't know where they all are because they recorded them all. In the recording, he says... Yeah, because everyone out there thinks we're a cult. We're not.

They were always trying to stress that we're not a cult. In school, they showed us Jim Jones and David Koresh. They showed us those and they're like, see, that's a cult. If no one gets murdered, it's not a cult.

They were always trying to stress that we're not a cult. In school, they showed us Jim Jones and David Koresh. They showed us those and they're like, see, that's a cult. If no one gets murdered, it's not a cult.

Eventually, my sister moved down to the valley, down to Phoenix. She tried to stay in it. But basically, if you're away, they're not really letting you do it. Everybody tithed money. Everyone was paying for Trina and Stephen's life.

Eventually, my sister moved down to the valley, down to Phoenix. She tried to stay in it. But basically, if you're away, they're not really letting you do it. Everybody tithed money. Everyone was paying for Trina and Stephen's life.

Exactly. My sister went up there to tithe and I guess she was trying to quit smoking. One of the cult leader's daughters said, oh, Tasha's trying to quit smoking. And Trina went, smoking doesn't cause cancer. And Tasha was like, okay, that's it. Like that was her last straw.

Exactly. My sister went up there to tithe and I guess she was trying to quit smoking. One of the cult leader's daughters said, oh, Tasha's trying to quit smoking. And Trina went, smoking doesn't cause cancer. And Tasha was like, okay, that's it. Like that was her last straw.

Right. And he would give medical advice.

Right. And he would give medical advice.

What blood pressure medication are you on? I don't like it. Oh, my God.

What blood pressure medication are you on? I don't like it. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Like my friend's mom died of a stroke. If we were getting actual medical care, we would have known that she had high blood pressure. But instead, we were listening to the spirit. So that kind of stuff makes me really angry.

Yeah. Like my friend's mom died of a stroke. If we were getting actual medical care, we would have known that she had high blood pressure. But instead, we were listening to the spirit. So that kind of stuff makes me really angry.

Turns out he had manic bipolar, which he also would have known if therapy was a thing or if medical psychology was a thing. So I ended up having a relationship with him. And then it kind of fell out because I didn't go live with him. I live with my sister. And then he had a huge episode, kept having episodes. He would get off his meds, on his meds, and then he started doing drugs.

Turns out he had manic bipolar, which he also would have known if therapy was a thing or if medical psychology was a thing. So I ended up having a relationship with him. And then it kind of fell out because I didn't go live with him. I live with my sister. And then he had a huge episode, kept having episodes. He would get off his meds, on his meds, and then he started doing drugs.

And so now his brain is pretty fraught. Yeah. Oh, man. We still have a relationship with him. We love him. He comes over for dinner and everything, but he's just not the same guy.

And so now his brain is pretty fraught. Yeah. Oh, man. We still have a relationship with him. We love him. He comes over for dinner and everything, but he's just not the same guy.

made this sweater oh my gosh so cute one of the guys from the cult is a chess master because there was like this whole thing steven was obsessed with chess he was a co-founder of chess.com which is where you play online chess and he just wrote a book and it's coming out in september and it's gonna be about the cult a little bit and also his chess journey

made this sweater oh my gosh so cute one of the guys from the cult is a chess master because there was like this whole thing steven was obsessed with chess he was a co-founder of chess.com which is where you play online chess and he just wrote a book and it's coming out in september and it's gonna be about the cult a little bit and also his chess journey

Yes, everyone has left the cult. There are still people that still have it in their brain. They're so brainwashed that it's still real for him, including my dad. He'll go in and out because he was so abused by them. But yeah, the cult is dismantled.

Yes, everyone has left the cult. There are still people that still have it in their brain. They're so brainwashed that it's still real for him, including my dad. He'll go in and out because he was so abused by them. But yeah, the cult is dismantled.

She used to do public trances. She passed, actually. She died three years ago. It was like an alcohol induced dementia, which makes sense. I still don't know if she was in on it.

She used to do public trances. She passed, actually. She died three years ago. It was like an alcohol induced dementia, which makes sense. I still don't know if she was in on it.

It's hard to know that. Or was it Stephen saw this craziness about her and decided to capitalize on it? I wish I could be a fly on the wall to hear a conversation that went on.

It's hard to know that. Or was it Stephen saw this craziness about her and decided to capitalize on it? I wish I could be a fly on the wall to hear a conversation that went on.

Yeah, I think your brain does crazy stuff, especially if you have some dementia going on later on. Yeah.

Yeah, I think your brain does crazy stuff, especially if you have some dementia going on later on. Yeah.

And I'm doing okay. Me and all my siblings are doing pretty well. Good. Oh, good. Happy to hear that. My sister, I just want to shout her out. Her name is Tosh. She raised me pretty much.

And I'm doing okay. Me and all my siblings are doing pretty well. Good. Oh, good. Happy to hear that. My sister, I just want to shout her out. Her name is Tosh. She raised me pretty much.

Big shout out.

Big shout out.

Yeah. Just know that they're creating chaos to keep you there.

Yeah. Just know that they're creating chaos to keep you there.

Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. Yeah. It was so nice to meet you guys. I can't believe this. This is crazy. Really nice to meet you.

Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. Yeah. It was so nice to meet you guys. I can't believe this. This is crazy. Really nice to meet you.

Hi.

This is me. I'm so nervous. Oh, don't be nervous.

People call me Fran or my dad calls me Frankie. Oh, I love that. That's so cute. I used to hate it, but I like it now.

Oh, did you make a fort for us? I did, and I've really found my center in here because I was really nervous. And it feels good just to sit here in the slight dark. Cozy.

I tried, but they aren't working.

No, I'm in Big Sky, Montana.

I sure do.

Yeah, it's too dangerous. But I want you to be.

He's everyone's dad. No, you want to see my dad? That's my dad. Oh. Oh, that's a sweet picture. So if you're wondering who joined the cult, it was these people.

I feel like they're in Italy.

I don't think so. I'm guessing they're in Texas.

Have you watched The Pit? I haven't seen The Pit.

They met these two people. Their names were Trina and Steven. They met them at a rebirthing seminar. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of that. I don't really know what it is either. It's just where you practice redo. It was the early 80s. Wait, you're reenacting your own birth? So that if you had any trauma coming in, you can get rid of it.

They joined Trina and Steven because Trina believed she could transfer a spirit through her body. A dead transmedium is what she was called. So she would leave her body and then the spirit would take over. And that's what I did on Sundays. pretty much from when I was born until I was 18. Oh my God.

So they collected a bunch of people. It was called the collective was an actual collective. So they all shared money and everything. But by the time I was born, it was not so much a collective. Everyone had their own money.

It was in Arizona. We went to trance every Sunday. It was like a dimly lit room. Everyone entered and we would sing, which was my favorite part. It was the only part that made sense to me. So we would sing a song and then she would meditate and then the spirit would come through. Dr. Duran, who was a 14th century doctor. And basically he would say a sermon and

And then he would open up for questions. So people basically sought advice from him.

A hundred at its peak. When I was growing up, it was probably more like 50.

We had this trance room that was locked out, no windows or anything because she needed darkness. But it wasn't so dark that you couldn't see her. And it's so hard because this was real for all of us, but it wasn't, obviously. But I grew up in it, so it was all I knew. Yeah. Yeah.

Later on when I got older. But no, they created chaos so that you just wanted to be a part of this family. So Trina and Steven had kids and grandkids. And there was a hierarchy. They were treated better than my family. It was all based on money, and I realize that now. They targeted people who had rich families. And my mom had wealthy parents. My dad didn't.

But my parents weren't giving any money because my grandparents wouldn't provide. So they were basically just treated like the lowest on the totem pole. My mom and dad never had a chance.

We were told that we are the closest to God because we're with the spirit in this lifetime. So it did have some like Buddhist principles. We believed in reincarnation and we believe that this life was our last because we were with the spirit. So we were special.

really, we would make fun of it a little bit. So trans, you never knew what you were going to get. Sometimes it was him like, oh my God, you guys need to lighten up and have a party. Literally the spirit talking through her was telling us this, or he would rip people to shreds.

And then after trans, sometimes there were like processes where the adults would all get together and they would all drink alcohol and just like rip each other. A new one. Wow. I wasn't there. I was too young, but I was usually babysitting the kids. By the time they got home, you could tell they had been crying and just unregulated.

People would make stuff up just to like get the attention off of them.

Yeah, it was pretty bad. There were good parts like growing up in Tono Village. I had a bunch of friends and it was dirt roads and it was a good place to grow up, but it was pretty toxic. We had our own school. You weren't encouraged to go out and get a degree or anything. You were encouraged to just stay small. Service was a big thing.

People who weren't even qualified would be teaching at the school with no pay.

I was so afraid of everybody. It was so scary. But also I wanted their approval so bad. But my dad was always kind of like half in, half out. He didn't actually want to go. He did it for my mom. And so when I was seven, they divorced and he kind of left the community. But even before that, he was just painted as a terrible person because he didn't want to be there. And that showed.

I knew my dad was a good guy. I loved him, but people would talk crap about him in front of me.

Yeah. That was part of the problem with trance was you were like asking a question and then you're airing all of your shit in front of everybody and in front of the kids.

At first, she wanted a community. And then they end up creating chaos to where it's like if you leave the community, you're leaving all of your friends behind.

your family you'll lose everything and that's what they do they make it so that you can't leave there were people who left but it sounds easy to just pick up and leave but it's not you don't have anything yeah yeah starting from scratch how far away did your dad move he just moved down to phoenix area so i would still see him but not very often so later on when i was 11 years old

My mom decided to get a boyfriend who did not want to be in the community. It was just kind of looked down upon to have a boyfriend at all. And he was a Vietnam vet. He was sort of abusive. So I had to live with him for a little bit. Basically, my mom was shunned because she wanted to be with this man who didn't want to be in the community.

So there was a point around that time where I was also shunned. The whole community was having Thanksgiving at Trina and Stephen's house. And I wasn't allowed to go. I like met with my sister and she's like, Fran, you're not allowed. My oldest sister, I'm the youngest of five, but she was my person when my mom wasn't around. Why was she allowed to go? Because she had her own life.

She actually got pregnant at 16. That was part of it, too. You get married and you have babies, assigned marriages. She had a baby at 16 because they told her, don't wear a condom, it hurts. Oh!

He was only a couple years older than her, but they ended up getting married and then torn apart because one of the leader's daughters wanted to marry the guy she was with.

Yeah, my sister's the real MVP. She's the firstborn child of the cult, and I say it shows. So she told me I can't go. They're mad at my mom. And I was like heartbroken about that. So later on, I'm going to feed my horses and I'm walking past Trina and Stephen's houses, which is where everyone was gathered. And my friend Scout came outside and she's like, Fran, what are you doing?

Innocently, she's like, come on, we're all having a party. And I was like, okay. So I go up the stairs and I get abused by Stephen Camp, who is the leader. He just screamed at me in front of everyone, told me that I can't be there. I need to go home. And I'm 11 years old. Oh, my God. What kind of... Oh, my God.

Oh, he was a scary, scary guy. I don't even remember, to be honest, what I did after that. It was... pretty traumatizing. So I had moved out of the house because of the guy she was with. So I moved in with my sister for a little while and then I was going to move back. I was told this later, but Paul, her boyfriend, didn't want me to move back in. And so he asked her for a divorce.

And then after that, my mom took her own life.

You've really been through the wringer. After my mom died. It was kind of like my family was finally in it. We were finally treated better, which is just absolutely crazy.

I think they felt guilty. Basically, she just lost her whole support system because the women in the family all stopped talking to her. And then the guy that she was doing it for wanted to leave her.

I was

It was rough. I don't blame them for it, but I do think my mom dying did shatter the glass a little. Had people questioning, what the fuck are we doing here? And then I didn't actually leave myself because I was young, but I ended up living with multiple different families, plus my sister. And it just got worse. Once I was living with the cult leader's daughter and they were really sweet.

Like everyone's a victim to this, I think, including their children. I had a boyfriend at 15. I went to trance one time and I got called a whore in trance. My spirit called me a whore.

No, it was kind of a joke like, oh, you guys live in Tono Village. You guys are a part of that cult. And we're like, yeah, you guys think it's a cult. It's not. I listened to a recent recording of a trance, which it's the only one I have. I don't know where they all are because they recorded them all. In the recording, he says... Yeah, because everyone out there thinks we're a cult. We're not.

They were always trying to stress that we're not a cult. In school, they showed us Jim Jones and David Koresh. They showed us those and they're like, see, that's a cult. If no one gets murdered, it's not a cult.

Eventually, my sister moved down to the valley, down to Phoenix. She tried to stay in it. But basically, if you're away, they're not really letting you do it. Everybody tithed money. Everyone was paying for Trina and Stephen's life.

Exactly. My sister went up there to tithe and I guess she was trying to quit smoking. One of the cult leader's daughters said, oh, Tasha's trying to quit smoking. And Trina went, smoking doesn't cause cancer. And Tasha was like, okay, that's it. Like that was her last straw.

Right. And he would give medical advice.

What blood pressure medication are you on? I don't like it. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Like my friend's mom died of a stroke. If we were getting actual medical care, we would have known that she had high blood pressure. But instead, we were listening to the spirit. So that kind of stuff makes me really angry.

Turns out he had manic bipolar, which he also would have known if therapy was a thing or if medical psychology was a thing. So I ended up having a relationship with him. And then it kind of fell out because I didn't go live with him. I live with my sister. And then he had a huge episode, kept having episodes. He would get off his meds, on his meds, and then he started doing drugs.

And so now his brain is pretty fraught. Yeah. Oh, man. We still have a relationship with him. We love him. He comes over for dinner and everything, but he's just not the same guy.

made this sweater oh my gosh so cute one of the guys from the cult is a chess master because there was like this whole thing steven was obsessed with chess he was a co-founder of chess.com which is where you play online chess and he just wrote a book and it's coming out in september and it's gonna be about the cult a little bit and also his chess journey

Yes, everyone has left the cult. There are still people that still have it in their brain. They're so brainwashed that it's still real for him, including my dad. He'll go in and out because he was so abused by them. But yeah, the cult is dismantled.

She used to do public trances. She passed, actually. She died three years ago. It was like an alcohol induced dementia, which makes sense. I still don't know if she was in on it.

It's hard to know that. Or was it Stephen saw this craziness about her and decided to capitalize on it? I wish I could be a fly on the wall to hear a conversation that went on.

Yeah, I think your brain does crazy stuff, especially if you have some dementia going on later on. Yeah.

And I'm doing okay. Me and all my siblings are doing pretty well. Good. Oh, good. Happy to hear that. My sister, I just want to shout her out. Her name is Tosh. She raised me pretty much.

Big shout out.

Yeah. Just know that they're creating chaos to keep you there.

Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. Yeah. It was so nice to meet you guys. I can't believe this. This is crazy. Really nice to meet you.

Yeah, no, it's so fair.

Yeah, no, it's so fair.

No, I don't blame you for thinking about it like that. We can devalue the narcissist piece because you're right. I mean, that would be like a whole rabbit hole to go down on whether he is or isn't. And

No, I don't blame you for thinking about it like that. We can devalue the narcissist piece because you're right. I mean, that would be like a whole rabbit hole to go down on whether he is or isn't. And

So let's, here's an example. I didn't get a plus one for a wedding last summer. We're in our twenties. When you're not that close with the couple getting married, you don't want to ask them to add a plus one for some new guy you're dating. So anyway, not a problem to me. When I was at the wedding, he wouldn't speak to me. He wouldn't answer my texts.

So let's, here's an example. I didn't get a plus one for a wedding last summer. We're in our twenties. When you're not that close with the couple getting married, you don't want to ask them to add a plus one for some new guy you're dating. So anyway, not a problem to me. When I was at the wedding, he wouldn't speak to me. He wouldn't answer my texts.

I don't complain about it. I just go with it because I'm very, I would say I'm very easygoing as a factor of growing up in the household I did. I am too.

I don't complain about it. I just go with it because I'm very, I would say I'm very easygoing as a factor of growing up in the household I did. I am too.

Like it's a power.

Like it's a power.

No, that's exactly how I want to be. And I'm definitely focused on the small circle at this point. And I think a lot of my buckets are filled in life. I have a wonderful family, parents who are well off and support me and are generous, but I still...

No, that's exactly how I want to be. And I'm definitely focused on the small circle at this point. And I think a lot of my buckets are filled in life. I have a wonderful family, parents who are well off and support me and are generous, but I still...

work a full-time job I provide entirely for myself I don't want or need anything from anybody including my parents I have wonderful friendships I have a lot of freedom with a remote job to explore and travel so I'm not really looking for anything specific around help or financial support or I don't have any friends like I really need to like have a family to fill my life up

work a full-time job I provide entirely for myself I don't want or need anything from anybody including my parents I have wonderful friendships I have a lot of freedom with a remote job to explore and travel so I'm not really looking for anything specific around help or financial support or I don't have any friends like I really need to like have a family to fill my life up

When I called him, he was like, he decided to be angry about it while I was at the wedding. Like why not before the wedding or at a time where we could talk about it?

When I called him, he was like, he decided to be angry about it while I was at the wedding. Like why not before the wedding or at a time where we could talk about it?

That's not what I'm looking for. I do want to have a family. I want to have kids. I need a partner that adds value to a life that I believe is already quite full and great. I think it's hard to find a balance with a man that's like super confident because I think I would need a guy that's very confident and also successful, ambitious, likes to travel.

That's not what I'm looking for. I do want to have a family. I want to have kids. I need a partner that adds value to a life that I believe is already quite full and great. I think it's hard to find a balance with a man that's like super confident because I think I would need a guy that's very confident and also successful, ambitious, likes to travel.

I'm dating about 10 years older. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Which maybe isn't a great thing because it hasn't worked out as well for me.

I'm dating about 10 years older. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Which maybe isn't a great thing because it hasn't worked out as well for me.

Hello, my name is Francesca. I'm 28 years old, and I'm wondering if my ex is narcissistic and ghosted me, or if I'm actually the bitch who ghosted him.

Hello, my name is Francesca. I'm 28 years old, and I'm wondering if my ex is narcissistic and ghosted me, or if I'm actually the bitch who ghosted him.

You're welcome. So Valentine's day after Valentine's day, he's being short doing the punishment thing. So I called him to say like, what's wrong? Like what, what are you upset about? And.

You're welcome. So Valentine's day after Valentine's day, he's being short doing the punishment thing. So I called him to say like, what's wrong? Like what, what are you upset about? And.

It is. And I think that's a challenge for me is that I probably come off really confident, but of course I'm a human and have tons of insecurities and things that I want to get better about, or that I haven't fully accepted about myself. And so when I'm looking for a match and like, I find the really confident, like, you know, I'm also really tall. I'm like almost five 10.

It is. And I think that's a challenge for me is that I probably come off really confident, but of course I'm a human and have tons of insecurities and things that I want to get better about, or that I haven't fully accepted about myself. And so when I'm looking for a match and like, I find the really confident, like, you know, I'm also really tall. I'm like almost five 10.

And so height comes into play where, and I feel like I've heard you talk about this on your show about like tall men or sometimes dangerous people.

And so height comes into play where, and I feel like I've heard you talk about this on your show about like tall men or sometimes dangerous people.

Right. And that's my problem is I don't really like men that act that way. So it's like, I don't really know where to land in this, in this space where I want someone that's like me in a lot of ways, but then men that are like me confident and tall and whatever successful behave in a way that I would never accept.

Right. And that's my problem is I don't really like men that act that way. So it's like, I don't really know where to land in this, in this space where I want someone that's like me in a lot of ways, but then men that are like me confident and tall and whatever successful behave in a way that I would never accept.

or want around me because I have my own insecurities and I need you to be really attentive to that as well. Well, that's the thing.

or want around me because I have my own insecurities and I need you to be really attentive to that as well. Well, that's the thing.

I think it is.

I think it is.

I know.

I know.

Right, right. So I think just getting a bit more clear on what my actual boundaries and like red lines are, I think will help in that way. But I think Instagram.

Right, right. So I think just getting a bit more clear on what my actual boundaries and like red lines are, I think will help in that way. But I think Instagram.

Okay, great.

Okay, great.

I'm getting humbled slowly, but surely. I think that's a good perspective on it that I need it. And it's a good thing.

I'm getting humbled slowly, but surely. I think that's a good perspective on it that I need it. And it's a good thing.

You don't have real opinions.

You don't have real opinions.

Yeah. No, that's the lesson I'm starting to learn. And I think I've taken a much more people-pleasing route just from my childhood and the way my sibling was. Yeah. The room that was left for me to be in was to be accommodating, easygoing, don't make a fuss, don't make things harder on anybody. So I definitely have an easygoing side to me that has led into me wanting to be very people-pleasing.

Yeah. No, that's the lesson I'm starting to learn. And I think I've taken a much more people-pleasing route just from my childhood and the way my sibling was. Yeah. The room that was left for me to be in was to be accommodating, easygoing, don't make a fuss, don't make things harder on anybody. So I definitely have an easygoing side to me that has led into me wanting to be very people-pleasing.

And as I've grown up, I'm like, I simply can't. I can't. Not everyone's going to like me, especially as I develop strong opinions about things in life. I'm going to see that a lot of people don't like that.

And as I've grown up, I'm like, I simply can't. I can't. Not everyone's going to like me, especially as I develop strong opinions about things in life. I'm going to see that a lot of people don't like that.

I do. I'm just trying not to anymore because I'm learning that there's nothing I can do to control it.

I do. I'm just trying not to anymore because I'm learning that there's nothing I can do to control it.

No, no. And I think my friends actually critique me on that where they're like, why you, you get so like in your head about them and you change the way you are around us. If they're bothering you, if they're like, mad at you or something, like you're gone. You're checked out for the night. Like you're not available anymore. So I definitely take it seriously.

No, no. And I think my friends actually critique me on that where they're like, why you, you get so like in your head about them and you change the way you are around us. If they're bothering you, if they're like, mad at you or something, like you're gone. You're checked out for the night. Like you're not available anymore. So I definitely take it seriously.

Both. Sometimes I have a clue, but it usually surprises me so much what he actually is upset about that I don't even know.

Both. Sometimes I have a clue, but it usually surprises me so much what he actually is upset about that I don't even know.

Like when I was at that wedding and he was upset with me, I sat and like, I had a lump in my throat the whole time. Like I had nothing to say to anybody. I was super upset.

Like when I was at that wedding and he was upset with me, I sat and like, I had a lump in my throat the whole time. Like I had nothing to say to anybody. I was super upset.

So in this moment right now?

So in this moment right now?

Oh, well, then he was mad that I didn't have a serious sit down conversation with him about the plus one thing or that I didn't ask or try harder to make it happen.

Oh, well, then he was mad that I didn't have a serious sit down conversation with him about the plus one thing or that I didn't ask or try harder to make it happen.

Yeah. And I, and I should and do, except with him, I felt like the.

Yeah. And I, and I should and do, except with him, I felt like the.

I think what bothers me, his emotions aren't that elevated. He gets actually more reserved and cold. So it's not a heightened emotion. It's more, why is he mad about something like that?

I think what bothers me, his emotions aren't that elevated. He gets actually more reserved and cold. So it's not a heightened emotion. It's more, why is he mad about something like that?

No, it's 100% true.

No, it's 100% true.

Oh, goodness. Yeah, that's a great way to never do that again. With Carrie from Sex and the City.

Oh, goodness. Yeah, that's a great way to never do that again. With Carrie from Sex and the City.

Right. We had been together since January at that point. So it did feel like strange that he, it doesn't matter, but it felt strange that this was something that he couldn't have brought up. I had known about the wedding for months.

Right. We had been together since January at that point. So it did feel like strange that he, it doesn't matter, but it felt strange that this was something that he couldn't have brought up. I had known about the wedding for months.

Yeah. A hundred percent. It just felt, it felt unhealthy that we weren't able to deal with it in advance, but I should have handled it better. I learned a lesson about that. Um, how to handle it, how to talk about those things. But with the Valentine's day thing, I think I'm just in a place where it's been a month and some change now.

Yeah. A hundred percent. It just felt, it felt unhealthy that we weren't able to deal with it in advance, but I should have handled it better. I learned a lesson about that. Um, how to handle it, how to talk about those things. But with the Valentine's day thing, I think I'm just in a place where it's been a month and some change now.

And it's like, do I just let it go without us ever speaking again? Probably. And I'm okay with that. I've accepted that. But if there are things that I contributed to this and that he genuinely believes that I have abandoned him after he opened up to me about things that were upsetting him, then I think it's worth a letter or a voice note.

And it's like, do I just let it go without us ever speaking again? Probably. And I'm okay with that. I've accepted that. But if there are things that I contributed to this and that he genuinely believes that I have abandoned him after he opened up to me about things that were upsetting him, then I think it's worth a letter or a voice note.

Just... really from an emotional and moral standpoint, like it is not my character for me with anybody in my life, any ex in my life to just like end on such a hostile note and never speak again. Like you were a big part of my life for a while. I still want to say that all good. We're not each other's person. Sorry for the pain that caused figuring it out, but

Just... really from an emotional and moral standpoint, like it is not my character for me with anybody in my life, any ex in my life to just like end on such a hostile note and never speak again. Like you were a big part of my life for a while. I still want to say that all good. We're not each other's person. Sorry for the pain that caused figuring it out, but

I definitely think he's going through a hard time.

I definitely think he's going through a hard time.

I'm scared of what he's going to say. Cause when we broke up in October and, He said some pretty hurtful things to me, very niche. He would pick on a lot of things about the types of clothes I would wear, the color of jewelry I was wearing, like very strange, peculiar things to pick up that

I'm scared of what he's going to say. Cause when we broke up in October and, He said some pretty hurtful things to me, very niche. He would pick on a lot of things about the types of clothes I would wear, the color of jewelry I was wearing, like very strange, peculiar things to pick up that

What do you mean by that? A shorter leash?

What do you mean by that? A shorter leash?

I think that's a good takeaway is that you're right. They're not going to change much, no matter how much they care about me or love the idea of being with me. They're not going to change. That's been proven true to me time and time again. And Maybe I need to have a lot more sensitivity. Lifestyle could change.

I think that's a good takeaway is that you're right. They're not going to change much, no matter how much they care about me or love the idea of being with me. They're not going to change. That's been proven true to me time and time again. And Maybe I need to have a lot more sensitivity. Lifestyle could change.

Yeah, that's I need to be a lot more sensitive to red flags up front because we we had some early squabbles that he reacted very intensely to. And I felt like that was super over the top and it gave me a bad feeling inside. But again, I'm like, it's hard for me to find men that I feel like I'm very physically and physically. lifestyle wise compatible with.

Yeah, that's I need to be a lot more sensitive to red flags up front because we we had some early squabbles that he reacted very intensely to. And I felt like that was super over the top and it gave me a bad feeling inside. But again, I'm like, it's hard for me to find men that I feel like I'm very physically and physically. lifestyle wise compatible with.

And when I have that, I make a lot of exceptions for red flags that come up because I'm like, wow, it's so hard for me to like a guy in the first place that when I do, I'm just going to make a lot more exceptions than I should, because I'm scared.

And when I have that, I make a lot of exceptions for red flags that come up because I'm like, wow, it's so hard for me to like a guy in the first place that when I do, I'm just going to make a lot more exceptions than I should, because I'm scared.

What I try to do, but no, I think you're right about the reaching out thing. If I think it could actually help him. The reason I feel like he's not in a great place is he's been going through a lot with his businesses and his finances. He lost his dog. He all in recent times.

What I try to do, but no, I think you're right about the reaching out thing. If I think it could actually help him. The reason I feel like he's not in a great place is he's been going through a lot with his businesses and his finances. He lost his dog. He all in recent times.

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but my fear is that, and he's now like even more alone and like in a terrible place. And all he was trying to do was just open up about things that bothered him. And then I never spoke to him again. Whereas from my perspective, I was really looking for some change that if something bothers you, we handle it in a more healthy, constructive way.

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but my fear is that, and he's now like even more alone and like in a terrible place. And all he was trying to do was just open up about things that bothered him. And then I never spoke to him again. Whereas from my perspective, I was really looking for some change that if something bothers you, we handle it in a more healthy, constructive way.

And when I felt that that wasn't happening and he was getting mad about the Valentine's day gift I got.

And when I felt that that wasn't happening and he was getting mad about the Valentine's day gift I got.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I was looking for because something about the thought of him feeling like, wow, she ruined me. She like left me high and dry. I was trying to open up about something and she made my bad situation so much worse. Like that makes me feel like scared. Like I want to reach out and clear the air over that, but I don't think this is my person.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I was looking for because something about the thought of him feeling like, wow, she ruined me. She like left me high and dry. I was trying to open up about something and she made my bad situation so much worse. Like that makes me feel like scared. Like I want to reach out and clear the air over that, but I don't think this is my person.

Exactly.

Exactly.

He said things to me that my husband would never say to me.

He said things to me that my husband would never say to me.

Yeah, I guess that's part of it is right now I'm feeling like really wrong and like he's perceiving me as somebody that's hurtful and damaging and I like can't stand that.

Yeah, I guess that's part of it is right now I'm feeling like really wrong and like he's perceiving me as somebody that's hurtful and damaging and I like can't stand that.

Yeah, I need to get over that. Well, I appreciate that perspective because I could have done things wrong and it's still okay.

Yeah, I need to get over that. Well, I appreciate that perspective because I could have done things wrong and it's still okay.

No, I don't want to be a victim. Now that you phrase it that way, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to have that in my brain or in my subconscious.

No, I don't want to be a victim. Now that you phrase it that way, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to have that in my brain or in my subconscious.

That is probably something he wonders too.

That is probably something he wonders too.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, I agree.

Thank you. All right. Nick, it's great talking to you. I listen to your podcast all the time. Well, thank you for listening. I appreciate it. It was nice talking to you.

Thank you. All right. Nick, it's great talking to you. I listen to your podcast all the time. Well, thank you for listening. I appreciate it. It was nice talking to you.

Thanks for having me. Bye.

Thanks for having me. Bye.

Well, the reason I care is because we had just started rekindling a relationship that was about a year in the making.

Well, the reason I care is because we had just started rekindling a relationship that was about a year in the making.

So this is why it's so important for me to ask the second part of my initial question. I definitely have pieces of me that it's going to take a certain type of man to handle.

So this is why it's so important for me to ask the second part of my initial question. I definitely have pieces of me that it's going to take a certain type of man to handle.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's been a pattern in my more serious adult relationships that my social life being much more abundant than theirs creates problems. And so there, you know, at the age of 28, I'm trying to figure out, okay, if there are things about me and the way I live my life that are pushing away men, then I need to.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's been a pattern in my more serious adult relationships that my social life being much more abundant than theirs creates problems. And so there, you know, at the age of 28, I'm trying to figure out, okay, if there are things about me and the way I live my life that are pushing away men, then I need to.

I want to get married and start a family.

I want to get married and start a family.

uh ideally i mean i don't like to time limit myself but unfortunately we have a biological clock and mine's a bit more curtailed than maybe other people's would be so i would say if i could start having kids by 31 that would be okay biologically when you say going out what do you mean um going out in what sense Like going out with my friends.

uh ideally i mean i don't like to time limit myself but unfortunately we have a biological clock and mine's a bit more curtailed than maybe other people's would be so i would say if i could start having kids by 31 that would be okay biologically when you say going out what do you mean um going out in what sense Like going out with my friends.

My social life is more abundant.

My social life is more abundant.

I have dear friends from when I was a child that we have always, since we were literally children, sleepovers, going and doing stuff together, movies. Now that we're older, it's evolved into we have a certain music taste. If we have artists that are performing in different cities, we would like to go together and... I have a lot of friends getting married. So bachelorette trips are everywhere.

I have dear friends from when I was a child that we have always, since we were literally children, sleepovers, going and doing stuff together, movies. Now that we're older, it's evolved into we have a certain music taste. If we have artists that are performing in different cities, we would like to go together and... I have a lot of friends getting married. So bachelorette trips are everywhere.

Birthday trips are things that we do now that we make money and have freedom.

Birthday trips are things that we do now that we make money and have freedom.

In my opinion, not very often. Like the last time I went out was maybe two months ago. So it's every few months, maybe.

In my opinion, not very often. Like the last time I went out was maybe two months ago. So it's every few months, maybe.

No, we were rekindling for like a couple of months. We had broken up in October. Actually, he had broken up with me. First time anyone's broken up with me. So it shell shocked me and added a lot of stress and overthinking into what was going on in the relationship. But the reason I care about what's going on with my ex is because we just didn't finish the relationship.

No, we were rekindling for like a couple of months. We had broken up in October. Actually, he had broken up with me. First time anyone's broken up with me. So it shell shocked me and added a lot of stress and overthinking into what was going on in the relationship. But the reason I care about what's going on with my ex is because we just didn't finish the relationship.

On a trip, not necessarily, but doing something that would be considered going out, like going to a show or going on a trip.

On a trip, not necessarily, but doing something that would be considered going out, like going to a show or going on a trip.

I'm not going to a club for fun every weekend. Absolutely not. And I wouldn't accept that from my partner either.

I'm not going to a club for fun every weekend. Absolutely not. And I wouldn't accept that from my partner either.

my last two long-term relationships that has become a problem.

my last two long-term relationships that has become a problem.

You know, I think after reflecting a lot on it, it might be just an element of, yes, the choosing, but also there's some element of insecurity in the relationship.

You know, I think after reflecting a lot on it, it might be just an element of, yes, the choosing, but also there's some element of insecurity in the relationship.

I would say, I know I land, I definitely land in the middle. I am somebody that likes communication. Communication is my love language is words of affirmation. So I am big on let's stay in touch. Let's talk on the phone. Let's text. I do occasionally garden when I'm on these trips or just maybe on a regular basis, which gets me a little spacey. I don't know if you know what I'm I'm smoke.

I would say, I know I land, I definitely land in the middle. I am somebody that likes communication. Communication is my love language is words of affirmation. So I am big on let's stay in touch. Let's talk on the phone. Let's text. I do occasionally garden when I'm on these trips or just maybe on a regular basis, which gets me a little spacey. I don't know if you know what I'm I'm smoke.

Pretty regularly.

Pretty regularly.

So it makes me spacey and I don't always text back. If I'm like sitting with my best friend, having a deep life conversation. Yeah, I might not text you back for an hour, but I'm pretty good about it.

So it makes me spacey and I don't always text back. If I'm like sitting with my best friend, having a deep life conversation. Yeah, I might not text you back for an hour, but I'm pretty good about it.

At the end of the day- I am good about it, but I will say there are periods where I'm having a deep life conversation where I look at my phone an hour and a half later and I'm like, oh, hey, sorry.

At the end of the day- I am good about it, but I will say there are periods where I'm having a deep life conversation where I look at my phone an hour and a half later and I'm like, oh, hey, sorry.

Or Dolly Parton. Her husband was never seen publicly because that's just what worked for them.

Or Dolly Parton. Her husband was never seen publicly because that's just what worked for them.

We just never spoke again after having a certain phone call. And it's just not in my character to be a ghoster or to end things on a bad note. Like I have pretty high emotional intelligence, I would say.

We just never spoke again after having a certain phone call. And it's just not in my character to be a ghoster or to end things on a bad note. Like I have pretty high emotional intelligence, I would say.

Yeah, yeah, that's probably part of it. I will say he the most the more recent one wasn't as bad about it. I think there were just other things that started to come up that painted a picture that I'm not as invested as he is, which might have been true in some ways.

Yeah, yeah, that's probably part of it. I will say he the most the more recent one wasn't as bad about it. I think there were just other things that started to come up that painted a picture that I'm not as invested as he is, which might have been true in some ways.

Um, and that's where I think I'm, I think a lot of the things he did were very toxic and unhealthy and reasons that I was like, yeah, you're probably not my person at the same time. I think it makes me feel some level of guilt to feel that somebody was trying harder or more invested than I was. And yeah.

Um, and that's where I think I'm, I think a lot of the things he did were very toxic and unhealthy and reasons that I was like, yeah, you're probably not my person at the same time. I think it makes me feel some level of guilt to feel that somebody was trying harder or more invested than I was. And yeah.

Yeah, now there's just this messy ending where we just stopped speaking entirely after that phone call. And I'm like, should I just clear the air? Because in my character, I don't have bad blood with anybody.

Yeah, now there's just this messy ending where we just stopped speaking entirely after that phone call. And I'm like, should I just clear the air? Because in my character, I don't have bad blood with anybody.

Yeah, I think because I'm angry about some things or my feelings are hurt about some things. But at the same time, I can easily talk. That's why my question at the beginning is what it is. I can easily convince myself that it's me that's the problem or that it's him that's the problem.

Yeah, I think because I'm angry about some things or my feelings are hurt about some things. But at the same time, I can easily talk. That's why my question at the beginning is what it is. I can easily convince myself that it's me that's the problem or that it's him that's the problem.

I think because of an emphasis on looks for himself and for the person he's with, as well as- I think there's a huge difference between vanity and narcissism. Yeah, as well as there's just a number of things. I started looking into it. I never thought he was because I thought there was an element of insecurity there. And I was like, well, if he's a narcissist, he can't be insecure.

I think because of an emphasis on looks for himself and for the person he's with, as well as- I think there's a huge difference between vanity and narcissism. Yeah, as well as there's just a number of things. I started looking into it. I never thought he was because I thought there was an element of insecurity there. And I was like, well, if he's a narcissist, he can't be insecure.

But then I was looking it up and it's like, actually, they can be and they probably are very insecure. So there's a number of things about vanity, about manipulation in certain situations, wanting somebody to seem wrong.

But then I was looking it up and it's like, actually, they can be and they probably are very insecure. So there's a number of things about vanity, about manipulation in certain situations, wanting somebody to seem wrong.

Like gaslighting.

Like gaslighting.

So on the day after Valentine's Day, I felt like he was being a little short with me, which has been an ongoing issue in the relationship when he's frustrated by something or doesn't like something. He doesn't just come to me and bring it up in a healthy way and we talk it out and then it's all good.

So on the day after Valentine's Day, I felt like he was being a little short with me, which has been an ongoing issue in the relationship when he's frustrated by something or doesn't like something. He doesn't just come to me and bring it up in a healthy way and we talk it out and then it's all good.

Nothing. I think that's probably less, it's so true. Like there's narcissism everywhere. We all are in our own ways, slightly narcissistic. I think a lot of it comes from the oscillation between the love bombing and the courting and then the like punishment over small behaviors that

Nothing. I think that's probably less, it's so true. Like there's narcissism everywhere. We all are in our own ways, slightly narcissistic. I think a lot of it comes from the oscillation between the love bombing and the courting and then the like punishment over small behaviors that

He kind of punishes me for it and I have to realize that I'm being kind of ignored or he's being shorter with me, less affectionate. I have to ask and then it comes up. So that's always been a frustration.

He kind of punishes me for it and I have to realize that I'm being kind of ignored or he's being shorter with me, less affectionate. I have to ask and then it comes up. So that's always been a frustration.

Yeah, no, it's so fair.

No, I don't blame you for thinking about it like that. We can devalue the narcissist piece because you're right. I mean, that would be like a whole rabbit hole to go down on whether he is or isn't. And

So let's, here's an example. I didn't get a plus one for a wedding last summer. We're in our twenties. When you're not that close with the couple getting married, you don't want to ask them to add a plus one for some new guy you're dating. So anyway, not a problem to me. When I was at the wedding, he wouldn't speak to me. He wouldn't answer my texts.

I don't complain about it. I just go with it because I'm very, I would say I'm very easygoing as a factor of growing up in the household I did. I am too.

Like it's a power.

No, that's exactly how I want to be. And I'm definitely focused on the small circle at this point. And I think a lot of my buckets are filled in life. I have a wonderful family, parents who are well off and support me and are generous, but I still...

work a full-time job I provide entirely for myself I don't want or need anything from anybody including my parents I have wonderful friendships I have a lot of freedom with a remote job to explore and travel so I'm not really looking for anything specific around help or financial support or I don't have any friends like I really need to like have a family to fill my life up

When I called him, he was like, he decided to be angry about it while I was at the wedding. Like why not before the wedding or at a time where we could talk about it?

That's not what I'm looking for. I do want to have a family. I want to have kids. I need a partner that adds value to a life that I believe is already quite full and great. I think it's hard to find a balance with a man that's like super confident because I think I would need a guy that's very confident and also successful, ambitious, likes to travel.

I'm dating about 10 years older. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Which maybe isn't a great thing because it hasn't worked out as well for me.

Hello, my name is Francesca. I'm 28 years old, and I'm wondering if my ex is narcissistic and ghosted me, or if I'm actually the bitch who ghosted him.

You're welcome. So Valentine's day after Valentine's day, he's being short doing the punishment thing. So I called him to say like, what's wrong? Like what, what are you upset about? And.

It is. And I think that's a challenge for me is that I probably come off really confident, but of course I'm a human and have tons of insecurities and things that I want to get better about, or that I haven't fully accepted about myself. And so when I'm looking for a match and like, I find the really confident, like, you know, I'm also really tall. I'm like almost five 10.

And so height comes into play where, and I feel like I've heard you talk about this on your show about like tall men or sometimes dangerous people.

Right. And that's my problem is I don't really like men that act that way. So it's like, I don't really know where to land in this, in this space where I want someone that's like me in a lot of ways, but then men that are like me confident and tall and whatever successful behave in a way that I would never accept.

or want around me because I have my own insecurities and I need you to be really attentive to that as well. Well, that's the thing.

I think it is.

I know.

Right, right. So I think just getting a bit more clear on what my actual boundaries and like red lines are, I think will help in that way. But I think Instagram.

Okay, great.

I'm getting humbled slowly, but surely. I think that's a good perspective on it that I need it. And it's a good thing.

You don't have real opinions.

Yeah. No, that's the lesson I'm starting to learn. And I think I've taken a much more people-pleasing route just from my childhood and the way my sibling was. Yeah. The room that was left for me to be in was to be accommodating, easygoing, don't make a fuss, don't make things harder on anybody. So I definitely have an easygoing side to me that has led into me wanting to be very people-pleasing.

And as I've grown up, I'm like, I simply can't. I can't. Not everyone's going to like me, especially as I develop strong opinions about things in life. I'm going to see that a lot of people don't like that.

I do. I'm just trying not to anymore because I'm learning that there's nothing I can do to control it.

No, no. And I think my friends actually critique me on that where they're like, why you, you get so like in your head about them and you change the way you are around us. If they're bothering you, if they're like, mad at you or something, like you're gone. You're checked out for the night. Like you're not available anymore. So I definitely take it seriously.

Both. Sometimes I have a clue, but it usually surprises me so much what he actually is upset about that I don't even know.

Like when I was at that wedding and he was upset with me, I sat and like, I had a lump in my throat the whole time. Like I had nothing to say to anybody. I was super upset.

So in this moment right now?

Oh, well, then he was mad that I didn't have a serious sit down conversation with him about the plus one thing or that I didn't ask or try harder to make it happen.

Yeah. And I, and I should and do, except with him, I felt like the.

I think what bothers me, his emotions aren't that elevated. He gets actually more reserved and cold. So it's not a heightened emotion. It's more, why is he mad about something like that?

No, it's 100% true.

Oh, goodness. Yeah, that's a great way to never do that again. With Carrie from Sex and the City.

Right. We had been together since January at that point. So it did feel like strange that he, it doesn't matter, but it felt strange that this was something that he couldn't have brought up. I had known about the wedding for months.

Yeah. A hundred percent. It just felt, it felt unhealthy that we weren't able to deal with it in advance, but I should have handled it better. I learned a lesson about that. Um, how to handle it, how to talk about those things. But with the Valentine's day thing, I think I'm just in a place where it's been a month and some change now.

And it's like, do I just let it go without us ever speaking again? Probably. And I'm okay with that. I've accepted that. But if there are things that I contributed to this and that he genuinely believes that I have abandoned him after he opened up to me about things that were upsetting him, then I think it's worth a letter or a voice note.

Just... really from an emotional and moral standpoint, like it is not my character for me with anybody in my life, any ex in my life to just like end on such a hostile note and never speak again. Like you were a big part of my life for a while. I still want to say that all good. We're not each other's person. Sorry for the pain that caused figuring it out, but

I definitely think he's going through a hard time.

I'm scared of what he's going to say. Cause when we broke up in October and, He said some pretty hurtful things to me, very niche. He would pick on a lot of things about the types of clothes I would wear, the color of jewelry I was wearing, like very strange, peculiar things to pick up that

What do you mean by that? A shorter leash?

I think that's a good takeaway is that you're right. They're not going to change much, no matter how much they care about me or love the idea of being with me. They're not going to change. That's been proven true to me time and time again. And Maybe I need to have a lot more sensitivity. Lifestyle could change.

Yeah, that's I need to be a lot more sensitive to red flags up front because we we had some early squabbles that he reacted very intensely to. And I felt like that was super over the top and it gave me a bad feeling inside. But again, I'm like, it's hard for me to find men that I feel like I'm very physically and physically. lifestyle wise compatible with.

And when I have that, I make a lot of exceptions for red flags that come up because I'm like, wow, it's so hard for me to like a guy in the first place that when I do, I'm just going to make a lot more exceptions than I should, because I'm scared.

What I try to do, but no, I think you're right about the reaching out thing. If I think it could actually help him. The reason I feel like he's not in a great place is he's been going through a lot with his businesses and his finances. He lost his dog. He all in recent times.

I don't mean to sound insensitive, but my fear is that, and he's now like even more alone and like in a terrible place. And all he was trying to do was just open up about things that bothered him. And then I never spoke to him again. Whereas from my perspective, I was really looking for some change that if something bothers you, we handle it in a more healthy, constructive way.

And when I felt that that wasn't happening and he was getting mad about the Valentine's day gift I got.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I was looking for because something about the thought of him feeling like, wow, she ruined me. She like left me high and dry. I was trying to open up about something and she made my bad situation so much worse. Like that makes me feel like scared. Like I want to reach out and clear the air over that, but I don't think this is my person.

Exactly.

He said things to me that my husband would never say to me.

Yeah, I guess that's part of it is right now I'm feeling like really wrong and like he's perceiving me as somebody that's hurtful and damaging and I like can't stand that.

Yeah, I need to get over that. Well, I appreciate that perspective because I could have done things wrong and it's still okay.

No, I don't want to be a victim. Now that you phrase it that way, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to have that in my brain or in my subconscious.

That is probably something he wonders too.

Yeah, I agree.

Thank you. All right. Nick, it's great talking to you. I listen to your podcast all the time. Well, thank you for listening. I appreciate it. It was nice talking to you.

Thanks for having me. Bye.

Well, the reason I care is because we had just started rekindling a relationship that was about a year in the making.

So this is why it's so important for me to ask the second part of my initial question. I definitely have pieces of me that it's going to take a certain type of man to handle.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's been a pattern in my more serious adult relationships that my social life being much more abundant than theirs creates problems. And so there, you know, at the age of 28, I'm trying to figure out, okay, if there are things about me and the way I live my life that are pushing away men, then I need to.

I want to get married and start a family.

uh ideally i mean i don't like to time limit myself but unfortunately we have a biological clock and mine's a bit more curtailed than maybe other people's would be so i would say if i could start having kids by 31 that would be okay biologically when you say going out what do you mean um going out in what sense Like going out with my friends.

My social life is more abundant.

I have dear friends from when I was a child that we have always, since we were literally children, sleepovers, going and doing stuff together, movies. Now that we're older, it's evolved into we have a certain music taste. If we have artists that are performing in different cities, we would like to go together and... I have a lot of friends getting married. So bachelorette trips are everywhere.

Birthday trips are things that we do now that we make money and have freedom.

In my opinion, not very often. Like the last time I went out was maybe two months ago. So it's every few months, maybe.

No, we were rekindling for like a couple of months. We had broken up in October. Actually, he had broken up with me. First time anyone's broken up with me. So it shell shocked me and added a lot of stress and overthinking into what was going on in the relationship. But the reason I care about what's going on with my ex is because we just didn't finish the relationship.

On a trip, not necessarily, but doing something that would be considered going out, like going to a show or going on a trip.

I'm not going to a club for fun every weekend. Absolutely not. And I wouldn't accept that from my partner either.

my last two long-term relationships that has become a problem.

You know, I think after reflecting a lot on it, it might be just an element of, yes, the choosing, but also there's some element of insecurity in the relationship.

I would say, I know I land, I definitely land in the middle. I am somebody that likes communication. Communication is my love language is words of affirmation. So I am big on let's stay in touch. Let's talk on the phone. Let's text. I do occasionally garden when I'm on these trips or just maybe on a regular basis, which gets me a little spacey. I don't know if you know what I'm I'm smoke.

Pretty regularly.

So it makes me spacey and I don't always text back. If I'm like sitting with my best friend, having a deep life conversation. Yeah, I might not text you back for an hour, but I'm pretty good about it.

At the end of the day- I am good about it, but I will say there are periods where I'm having a deep life conversation where I look at my phone an hour and a half later and I'm like, oh, hey, sorry.

Or Dolly Parton. Her husband was never seen publicly because that's just what worked for them.

We just never spoke again after having a certain phone call. And it's just not in my character to be a ghoster or to end things on a bad note. Like I have pretty high emotional intelligence, I would say.

Yeah, yeah, that's probably part of it. I will say he the most the more recent one wasn't as bad about it. I think there were just other things that started to come up that painted a picture that I'm not as invested as he is, which might have been true in some ways.

Um, and that's where I think I'm, I think a lot of the things he did were very toxic and unhealthy and reasons that I was like, yeah, you're probably not my person at the same time. I think it makes me feel some level of guilt to feel that somebody was trying harder or more invested than I was. And yeah.

Yeah, now there's just this messy ending where we just stopped speaking entirely after that phone call. And I'm like, should I just clear the air? Because in my character, I don't have bad blood with anybody.

Yeah, I think because I'm angry about some things or my feelings are hurt about some things. But at the same time, I can easily talk. That's why my question at the beginning is what it is. I can easily convince myself that it's me that's the problem or that it's him that's the problem.

I think because of an emphasis on looks for himself and for the person he's with, as well as- I think there's a huge difference between vanity and narcissism. Yeah, as well as there's just a number of things. I started looking into it. I never thought he was because I thought there was an element of insecurity there. And I was like, well, if he's a narcissist, he can't be insecure.

But then I was looking it up and it's like, actually, they can be and they probably are very insecure. So there's a number of things about vanity, about manipulation in certain situations, wanting somebody to seem wrong.

Like gaslighting.

So on the day after Valentine's Day, I felt like he was being a little short with me, which has been an ongoing issue in the relationship when he's frustrated by something or doesn't like something. He doesn't just come to me and bring it up in a healthy way and we talk it out and then it's all good.

Nothing. I think that's probably less, it's so true. Like there's narcissism everywhere. We all are in our own ways, slightly narcissistic. I think a lot of it comes from the oscillation between the love bombing and the courting and then the like punishment over small behaviors that

He kind of punishes me for it and I have to realize that I'm being kind of ignored or he's being shorter with me, less affectionate. I have to ask and then it comes up. So that's always been a frustration.