Frank Gardner

But Europe already has NATO. And America, despite all the seismic shocks the Trump team has been delivering this week, is not leaving NATO. Here's Finland's foreign minister, Alina Valtonen.

But Europe already has NATO. And America, despite all the seismic shocks the Trump team has been delivering this week, is not leaving NATO. Here's Finland's foreign minister, Alina Valtonen.

And that idea, said Britain's Foreign Secretary David Lammy, is not just about defense, it's about mutual economic interests.

And that idea, said Britain's Foreign Secretary David Lammy, is not just about defense, it's about mutual economic interests.

But here in Munich, the prevailing question remains. With US support now wavering, can Europe arm itself and Ukraine sufficiently and in time to fend off any future Russian aggression?

But here in Munich, the prevailing question remains. With US support now wavering, can Europe arm itself and Ukraine sufficiently and in time to fend off any future Russian aggression?

I think it's really about how much can be given away, where there is common ground and where there isn't. There's no disguising it. There is a huge gap between Ukraine and its European allies on the one hand and what the White House wants on the other. President Trump's team are impatient to end this war. Some would say at whatever cost. even if it's to Ukraine's detriment.

I think it's really about how much can be given away, where there is common ground and where there isn't. There's no disguising it. There is a huge gap between Ukraine and its European allies on the one hand and what the White House wants on the other. President Trump's team are impatient to end this war. Some would say at whatever cost. even if it's to Ukraine's detriment.

And Europe's view is we need to continue supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes. Those are the words of Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, this morning. That is not the view in Washington, where they're saying, yeah, we still support Ukraine, but... We want a deal. Get it done. And we know what Russia's position is. They intend to not only hang on to the territory they've already taken.

And Europe's view is we need to continue supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes. Those are the words of Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, this morning. That is not the view in Washington, where they're saying, yeah, we still support Ukraine, but... We want a deal. Get it done. And we know what Russia's position is. They intend to not only hang on to the territory they've already taken.

They want guarantees that Ukraine is not going to join NATO. There are going to be no NATO troops in Ukraine. And also, they want more land. Now, the big fear here in Munich is that a deal is going to be done, whether Europe and Ukraine like it or not, and that that is going to involve essentially selling out Ukrainian interests and allowing Russia to rebuild its army.

They want guarantees that Ukraine is not going to join NATO. There are going to be no NATO troops in Ukraine. And also, they want more land. Now, the big fear here in Munich is that a deal is going to be done, whether Europe and Ukraine like it or not, and that that is going to involve essentially selling out Ukrainian interests and allowing Russia to rebuild its army.

And the fear is that Russia is going to simply come back and take the rest of Ukraine at a time of its choosing.

And the fear is that Russia is going to simply come back and take the rest of Ukraine at a time of its choosing.

No, we don't. He said that in that interview to me about a couple of hours ago when we recorded it. And that's another one of the themes here at this conference, that Europe has not exactly dithered, you know, fiddled while Rome burnt, but has been... rather slow to get its act together when it comes to organising enough money for defence.

No, we don't. He said that in that interview to me about a couple of hours ago when we recorded it. And that's another one of the themes here at this conference, that Europe has not exactly dithered, you know, fiddled while Rome burnt, but has been... rather slow to get its act together when it comes to organising enough money for defence.

America is sending the very clear signal that the US taxpayer is no longer going to be expected to shoulder the bulk of the defence burden in supporting Ukraine and in defending Europe. It's time for Europe to stand on its own two feet. That's extremely unwelcome here because in terms of percentage of national wealth countries spend on defence, The NATO mandate is it's meant to be 2%.

America is sending the very clear signal that the US taxpayer is no longer going to be expected to shoulder the bulk of the defence burden in supporting Ukraine and in defending Europe. It's time for Europe to stand on its own two feet. That's extremely unwelcome here because in terms of percentage of national wealth countries spend on defence, The NATO mandate is it's meant to be 2%.

Now, big countries like Spain and Italy are not even spending 2% on defence. Poland is, and the Baltic states are, because they're close to the action. Britain is agonising over whether to raise it from 2.3% to 2.5%. America is saying, you guys have got to spend 5% if you hope to be able to defend yourselves and stop relying on us to do it for you.

Now, big countries like Spain and Italy are not even spending 2% on defence. Poland is, and the Baltic states are, because they're close to the action. Britain is agonising over whether to raise it from 2.3% to 2.5%. America is saying, you guys have got to spend 5% if you hope to be able to defend yourselves and stop relying on us to do it for you.