Fred Luskin

Exactly. The not getting the promotion. Dana heard that, that it's about Dana. She took it personally. It's my company, my job. I did all this work. I made all this effort. She took the no, the rejection, as a personal affront.

Exactly. The not getting the promotion. Dana heard that, that it's about Dana. She took it personally. It's my company, my job. I did all this work. I made all this effort. She took the no, the rejection, as a personal affront.

Absolutely. So there's no denying that Dana's body and mind were affected by not getting the job. What there is room to negotiate is how much of that effect had to do with Dana's expectations, not just the not getting the job.

Absolutely. So there's no denying that Dana's body and mind were affected by not getting the job. What there is room to negotiate is how much of that effect had to do with Dana's expectations, not just the not getting the job.

So Alan had a wife who cheated on him. Like, And she didn't like try to hide it. You know, it was like, we're married, but you don't satisfy me. So, you know, I have an affair. And she shut him down if he started to complain or articulate his needs. So Alan just had one of those like doozies of a story. It's all her fault. The blame is the second piece of a three-part sequence.

So Alan had a wife who cheated on him. Like, And she didn't like try to hide it. You know, it was like, we're married, but you don't satisfy me. So, you know, I have an affair. And she shut him down if he started to complain or articulate his needs. So Alan just had one of those like doozies of a story. It's all her fault. The blame is the second piece of a three-part sequence.

It starts with taking it too personally, which you covered. When we take things too personally, our mind and body react in a very harsh, physically disruptive and emotionally suffering way. And then we have to talk to ourselves about what happened. So all three of those end up as this quality of blame. You did it to me. I'm not responsible for how bad I feel.

It starts with taking it too personally, which you covered. When we take things too personally, our mind and body react in a very harsh, physically disruptive and emotionally suffering way. And then we have to talk to ourselves about what happened. So all three of those end up as this quality of blame. You did it to me. I'm not responsible for how bad I feel.

And I'm going to talk to myself that solidifies this as a blaming story.

And I'm going to talk to myself that solidifies this as a blaming story.

You're spot on with that because when people are devastated... It's appropriate to be disrupted, dysregulated, confused, angry, lost, scared, and short-term. It's really helpful to have somebody to blame besides you.

You're spot on with that because when people are devastated... It's appropriate to be disrupted, dysregulated, confused, angry, lost, scared, and short-term. It's really helpful to have somebody to blame besides you.

When something happens, we have a choice of how we talk about it. And so we can talk about it as a normal life event, a catastrophe, something to cope with, you know, something I'm here to learn from, or a sign that the world is an unfair, unsafe place. What we lose when we get too deep into a grievance story is one, we have a choice. So that story of

When something happens, we have a choice of how we talk about it. And so we can talk about it as a normal life event, a catastrophe, something to cope with, you know, something I'm here to learn from, or a sign that the world is an unfair, unsafe place. What we lose when we get too deep into a grievance story is one, we have a choice. So that story of

hey, I got a really crappy deal with this wife and she messed up my life for six months. That's a healthy story for a month or so. You know, it's like that's how your brain rebalances and reorganizes itself from the disruption. And it can't go directly to, oh, let's think about this. I didn't make a good choice in marriage. She gave me lots of clues.

hey, I got a really crappy deal with this wife and she messed up my life for six months. That's a healthy story for a month or so. You know, it's like that's how your brain rebalances and reorganizes itself from the disruption. And it can't go directly to, oh, let's think about this. I didn't make a good choice in marriage. She gave me lots of clues.

I didn't do X. You can't reorganize coherently right away. So she's a terrible human being is a wonderful way to reorganize. The grievance story is a practice for how it is we're going to explain to ourselves what happened and what's an appropriate response for us to deal with it. The practice of it is very useful short term and destructive long term.

I didn't do X. You can't reorganize coherently right away. So she's a terrible human being is a wonderful way to reorganize. The grievance story is a practice for how it is we're going to explain to ourselves what happened and what's an appropriate response for us to deal with it. The practice of it is very useful short term and destructive long term.

When Dana wanted a promotion. She turned what she wanted into an expectation. I want to be promoted. She turned it into, I have to be promoted. When somebody gets married, they have a hope, you know, I want my partner to be faithful. but they change it into they have to be faithful. That is a rule for somebody else's behavior that you actually don't have power to enforce.

When Dana wanted a promotion. She turned what she wanted into an expectation. I want to be promoted. She turned it into, I have to be promoted. When somebody gets married, they have a hope, you know, I want my partner to be faithful. but they change it into they have to be faithful. That is a rule for somebody else's behavior that you actually don't have power to enforce.

If you wake up in the morning and you say, hey, I got a big day today, it has to be sunny and it's pouring, most normal people recognize they don't control the weather. But when an adult person does something that you don't want, we bypass that, well, a normal adult person doesn't have to do what I want.

If you wake up in the morning and you say, hey, I got a big day today, it has to be sunny and it's pouring, most normal people recognize they don't control the weather. But when an adult person does something that you don't want, we bypass that, well, a normal adult person doesn't have to do what I want.

But when we create unenforceable rules, we start thinking an adult separate from me has to do what I want. They have to give me a promotion. They have to stay my friend. They have to be faithful. Or also, they have to talk to me. Those unenforceable rules are rigid rules. like substrates in our thinking that when they're broken, cause us to have all sorts of exaggerated distress.

But when we create unenforceable rules, we start thinking an adult separate from me has to do what I want. They have to give me a promotion. They have to stay my friend. They have to be faithful. Or also, they have to talk to me. Those unenforceable rules are rigid rules. like substrates in our thinking that when they're broken, cause us to have all sorts of exaggerated distress.

You could say that. Let's just say it was a relationship challenge. But yes, there was one situation where she demanded that I do something in her home, and it was absolutely trivial. It was something along the lines of, don't put this back here. You have to put it back here. And she was yelling at me because I had put it back in the wrong place.

You could say that. Let's just say it was a relationship challenge. But yes, there was one situation where she demanded that I do something in her home, and it was absolutely trivial. It was something along the lines of, don't put this back here. You have to put it back here. And she was yelling at me because I had put it back in the wrong place.

So she had an unenforceable, sons-in-law can't put things back where I don't want them put back. And then I had an unenforceable rule. Moms-in-law can't talk to me like this. I heard myself saying it. In my mind, you can't talk to me like this. And I ran out the front door. I literally ran out the front door, ran away from my wife and her family, literally took a run

So she had an unenforceable, sons-in-law can't put things back where I don't want them put back. And then I had an unenforceable rule. Moms-in-law can't talk to me like this. I heard myself saying it. In my mind, you can't talk to me like this. And I ran out the front door. I literally ran out the front door, ran away from my wife and her family, literally took a run

because my unenforceable role was shouting at me, she can't do this. How dare she do this? Who is she to do this? I was gone for like an hour. My wife thought I was crazy enough to have gone back to California. She wondered, and I'm not blaming one shred of this on my mother-in-law,

because my unenforceable role was shouting at me, she can't do this. How dare she do this? Who is she to do this? I was gone for like an hour. My wife thought I was crazy enough to have gone back to California. She wondered, and I'm not blaming one shred of this on my mother-in-law,

I'm saying my rule, she broke my rule so strongly that I could only react that way because of the rule, not the reality of what she did.

I'm saying my rule, she broke my rule so strongly that I could only react that way because of the rule, not the reality of what she did.

So... Either during that run or later, I went to a pay phone. I didn't want to do it in the house. And I called up really close friends and I started to complain about my mother-in-law. And I got about 10 seconds in and the friend said, Fred, every time you go there, you call me to complain. And I looked at myself and I looked at him and said, but this one's serious.

So... Either during that run or later, I went to a pay phone. I didn't want to do it in the house. And I called up really close friends and I started to complain about my mother-in-law. And I got about 10 seconds in and the friend said, Fred, every time you go there, you call me to complain. And I looked at myself and I looked at him and said, but this one's serious.

And he said, I'm sure it's serious, but every single time you go there, you call us to complain about her and you want us to agree with you. So complain and we'll agree with you. But understand you do this every time. A light bulb went off. Wow. This woman owns me. She owns my nervous system. She owns my mind. She owns my feet. They take me to the phone. She owns me.

And he said, I'm sure it's serious, but every single time you go there, you call us to complain about her and you want us to agree with you. So complain and we'll agree with you. But understand you do this every time. A light bulb went off. Wow. This woman owns me. She owns my nervous system. She owns my mind. She owns my feet. They take me to the phone. She owns me.

I mean, there's lots of information about how hostile thoughts, resentment, and blame are all negatives for long-term physical well-being. One of the studies that I liked when I was doing a lot of this was there was a linear relationship between blame and all cause like physical well-being. There is a good degree of evidence that hostile people have greater heart disease.

I mean, there's lots of information about how hostile thoughts, resentment, and blame are all negatives for long-term physical well-being. One of the studies that I liked when I was doing a lot of this was there was a linear relationship between blame and all cause like physical well-being. There is a good degree of evidence that hostile people have greater heart disease.

Yeah. And there was a recent study that linked what you're calling perseveration and anger. Both were linked to sleep quality.

Yeah. And there was a recent study that linked what you're calling perseveration and anger. Both were linked to sleep quality.

Well, I mean the clearest and simplest link is with the stress response. So when you're angry or when you're pissed off or when you're blaming, you have a internalized sense of threat. Someone out there has hurt you or disappointed you or left you and you're not okay. So that sense of not okay,

Well, I mean the clearest and simplest link is with the stress response. So when you're angry or when you're pissed off or when you're blaming, you have a internalized sense of threat. Someone out there has hurt you or disappointed you or left you and you're not okay. So that sense of not okay,

you know, leads the brain and it signals to the adrenals and all sorts of changes to prepare you to, you know, run away. And run away doesn't have to be physically run away. It could be, I'll never talk to them again. That's a form of flight or fight them, be hostile. But the more you're angry and the more you're blaming yourself,

you know, leads the brain and it signals to the adrenals and all sorts of changes to prepare you to, you know, run away. And run away doesn't have to be physically run away. It could be, I'll never talk to them again. That's a form of flight or fight them, be hostile. But the more you're angry and the more you're blaming yourself,

the more you arouse that system, the more you trigger an adrenalized response, the more you train your body to accommodate cortisol, the more your brain gets used to that pathway of reaction, it develops practice effects. It becomes easier to do because the templates become laid down more succinctly.

the more you arouse that system, the more you trigger an adrenalized response, the more you train your body to accommodate cortisol, the more your brain gets used to that pathway of reaction, it develops practice effects. It becomes easier to do because the templates become laid down more succinctly.

The immediacy of arousal of anything that's a threat to us is the reason why long-term grievances are so dangerous.

The immediacy of arousal of anything that's a threat to us is the reason why long-term grievances are so dangerous.

There's a distinction made between constructive and destructive anger. So when our arousal and our physiology and our threats say we need to protect ourselves, anger can be a really good response. So if somebody is hurting your kid, get angry. It's really helpful. If you see an injustice, get angry. Notice it and recognize you want this to change.

There's a distinction made between constructive and destructive anger. So when our arousal and our physiology and our threats say we need to protect ourselves, anger can be a really good response. So if somebody is hurting your kid, get angry. It's really helpful. If you see an injustice, get angry. Notice it and recognize you want this to change.

The destructive anger is when anger does not lead to useful action. When it just becomes perseverative, and in a grievance, it actually becomes a substitute for action. In a chronic anger situation, there's a little bit of dopamine that you get, that pleasure chemical, ah, I'm doing something about it, when actually you're doing nothing constructive about it.

The destructive anger is when anger does not lead to useful action. When it just becomes perseverative, and in a grievance, it actually becomes a substitute for action. In a chronic anger situation, there's a little bit of dopamine that you get, that pleasure chemical, ah, I'm doing something about it, when actually you're doing nothing constructive about it.

The dopamine is a response to an anticipated value, But in anger, you never get that anticipated value unless you actually do something and change.

The dopamine is a response to an anticipated value, But in anger, you never get that anticipated value unless you actually do something and change.

Hey, thank you so much.

Hey, thank you so much.

No. I mean, issues, that's a nice way of putting it. Her husband was a serial adulterer. She had found him cheating numerous times. He said, I'm sorry. She said, OK, I'll take you back. He did it again.

No. I mean, issues, that's a nice way of putting it. Her husband was a serial adulterer. She had found him cheating numerous times. He said, I'm sorry. She said, OK, I'll take you back. He did it again.

So one time we brought them to the window of the fifth floor of the building on Stanford's campus. We opened the blinds and said, literally let the sun in that this murder is a horror, but it's in your past. And you want to make sure that this murder doesn't serve as like a full solar eclipse. And it doesn't mean that this didn't happen, but you can open back up to goodness.

So one time we brought them to the window of the fifth floor of the building on Stanford's campus. We opened the blinds and said, literally let the sun in that this murder is a horror, but it's in your past. And you want to make sure that this murder doesn't serve as like a full solar eclipse. And it doesn't mean that this didn't happen, but you can open back up to goodness.

And we gave them some practice in changing the story that they tell, the grievance story, not just to talk about how terrible it was, but what are some possibilities for moving forward.

And we gave them some practice in changing the story that they tell, the grievance story, not just to talk about how terrible it was, but what are some possibilities for moving forward.

I never tell people to forgive and forget. I tell them to forgive and remember differently. That is entirely different. I explain to them that forgiveness is not condoning. It's saving your life. I remind them that forgiveness has nothing to do with seeking justice. Forgiveness is inner healing and making peace with the life you had, not endlessly arguing with what you didn't get.

I never tell people to forgive and forget. I tell them to forgive and remember differently. That is entirely different. I explain to them that forgiveness is not condoning. It's saving your life. I remind them that forgiveness has nothing to do with seeking justice. Forgiveness is inner healing and making peace with the life you had, not endlessly arguing with what you didn't get.

The other thing is the whole orientation is a profound empathy for how much someone has suffered and a plea for them to not continue parts of this suffering that are under your control by fighting hard against what actually happened. So there's an empathic plea. They stole so much from you. Don't let them steal more.

The other thing is the whole orientation is a profound empathy for how much someone has suffered and a plea for them to not continue parts of this suffering that are under your control by fighting hard against what actually happened. So there's an empathic plea. They stole so much from you. Don't let them steal more.

It was mixed. They themselves on the whole reported improvement in mood and a dimming of the symptoms of stress. When they went back to Northern Ireland, it became much more dicey because their communities didn't want to hear about forgiveness. They themselves didn't give me grief, but their communities were not interested in going to fancy California and learning to do this.

It was mixed. They themselves on the whole reported improvement in mood and a dimming of the symptoms of stress. When they went back to Northern Ireland, it became much more dicey because their communities didn't want to hear about forgiveness. They themselves didn't give me grief, but their communities were not interested in going to fancy California and learning to do this.

So that was one obstacle that we learned about. The most satisfying moment of this in a very difficult experience was the second time we brought these women back, plus family members, not all of them, And one of the women's daughters, a middle-aged woman, came to us and said, thank you for giving us our mother back. She was just grief-stricken. And, you know, we couldn't get through to her.

So that was one obstacle that we learned about. The most satisfying moment of this in a very difficult experience was the second time we brought these women back, plus family members, not all of them, And one of the women's daughters, a middle-aged woman, came to us and said, thank you for giving us our mother back. She was just grief-stricken. And, you know, we couldn't get through to her.

And you reminded her, you can be grief-stricken and still, in the present, try to love someone and hold what's still good in your life.

And you reminded her, you can be grief-stricken and still, in the present, try to love someone and hold what's still good in your life.

It can be for the other person. in an important intimate relationship. So if your partner cheats, you can forgive both to free you and them. But it's an unenforceable rule thinking that if I forgive them, like they're gonna change or they forgive me, we don't have control over the other. Part of the problem

It can be for the other person. in an important intimate relationship. So if your partner cheats, you can forgive both to free you and them. But it's an unenforceable rule thinking that if I forgive them, like they're gonna change or they forgive me, we don't have control over the other. Part of the problem

Something snapped in her. She said, no more. You'll never treat me like this again. She threw him out. She filed for divorce. But when we met her, this guy owned her brain. And her conversation was just so dominated by him, him, him, him, him.

Something snapped in her. She said, no more. You'll never treat me like this again. She threw him out. She filed for divorce. But when we met her, this guy owned her brain. And her conversation was just so dominated by him, him, him, him, him.

of unforgiveness is our lack of control of what happened makes us feel so vulnerable and threatened that if we don't come up with a strategy that puts some of the control back in our hands, we can feel lost and scared for a long time. The simplest example is an intimate partnership.

of unforgiveness is our lack of control of what happened makes us feel so vulnerable and threatened that if we don't come up with a strategy that puts some of the control back in our hands, we can feel lost and scared for a long time. The simplest example is an intimate partnership.

If your partner is a schnook and cheats on you and you don't let that go, then you sometimes bring that to the next relationship. You're going to cheat on me. I can't trust you. If you forgive it, it's not necessarily to help the past partner, but you open back up to a kind of trust so the next partner doesn't have to deal with your woundedness.

If your partner is a schnook and cheats on you and you don't let that go, then you sometimes bring that to the next relationship. You're going to cheat on me. I can't trust you. If you forgive it, it's not necessarily to help the past partner, but you open back up to a kind of trust so the next partner doesn't have to deal with your woundedness.

When I got off the phone with those friends, And I had already started the forgiveness project, but it wasn't finished. I realized I need a new story. I can't keep on telling everybody how terrible my mother-in-law is and how helpless I am. I came up with a new story, which is I asked myself, Fred, why are you here? Why are you visiting her?

When I got off the phone with those friends, And I had already started the forgiveness project, but it wasn't finished. I realized I need a new story. I can't keep on telling everybody how terrible my mother-in-law is and how helpless I am. I came up with a new story, which is I asked myself, Fred, why are you here? Why are you visiting her?

And I said, because I want to support my partner, my wife, and I want my kids to know their grandma. So I said, why don't you act like it? You show up and you're a bear. You're not helping your wife. You're not helping your kids. If you can't do it, don't go. I wasn't there to get along with my mother-in-law. I was there to really support my wife.

And I said, because I want to support my partner, my wife, and I want my kids to know their grandma. So I said, why don't you act like it? You show up and you're a bear. You're not helping your wife. You're not helping your kids. If you can't do it, don't go. I wasn't there to get along with my mother-in-law. I was there to really support my wife.

It changed my behavior 180 degrees, changed me inside. And it transformed the forgiveness project into something really useful. Positive intention. What do you want? Why are you there? What positive thing can you move forward on so that the grievance is in the rear view mirror and not out your front windshield?

It changed my behavior 180 degrees, changed me inside. And it transformed the forgiveness project into something really useful. Positive intention. What do you want? Why are you there? What positive thing can you move forward on so that the grievance is in the rear view mirror and not out your front windshield?

That was one of the most poignant experiences of my life. When my wife died, which is now about 13 years ago, I continued to visit her parents and I showed up at their home. And I knocked at the door and she comes out. I mean, we had made a peace together, but we hadn't like healed. And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia.

That was one of the most poignant experiences of my life. When my wife died, which is now about 13 years ago, I continued to visit her parents and I showed up at their home. And I knocked at the door and she comes out. I mean, we had made a peace together, but we hadn't like healed. And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia.

And she comes out and she looks at me and says, I don't think I was that nice to you sometimes, was I? And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia. And I said, no, at times you really weren't. And she said, I'm sorry. And I said, of course, fully accepted. The piece that completely ends this is I went back home, thought about that.

And she comes out and she looks at me and says, I don't think I was that nice to you sometimes, was I? And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia. And I said, no, at times you really weren't. And she said, I'm sorry. And I said, of course, fully accepted. The piece that completely ends this is I went back home, thought about that.

And here I am a big shot forgiveness teacher and an older woman makes the first step. That doesn't look good. And the next time I went and visited them, I knocked on her door. And I said, remember when you told me that you were sorry for treating me a certain way? I said, well, I'm here to apologize to you.

And here I am a big shot forgiveness teacher and an older woman makes the first step. That doesn't look good. And the next time I went and visited them, I knocked on her door. And I said, remember when you told me that you were sorry for treating me a certain way? I said, well, I'm here to apologize to you.

I'm sorry for all the ways that I may not have been a good son-in-law and just made your life harder. I'm deeply sorry for that. And I think we both hurt your daughter. So please accept my apology. She smiled a little. She was, you know, not fully there. Forgiveness, wrapped it up in a bow, we're both clean, and it's as if it never happened.

I'm sorry for all the ways that I may not have been a good son-in-law and just made your life harder. I'm deeply sorry for that. And I think we both hurt your daughter. So please accept my apology. She smiled a little. She was, you know, not fully there. Forgiveness, wrapped it up in a bow, we're both clean, and it's as if it never happened.

Oh, there's a sadness or a poignancy sometimes. When you see people who are hurt like that, her conversation is about my ex and the lost marriage and what a bad person he was. But it's shrouded in failure. It's this didn't work. I couldn't make it happen. I did my best. There were obstacles too big for me. And that has implications for her entire life.

Oh, there's a sadness or a poignancy sometimes. When you see people who are hurt like that, her conversation is about my ex and the lost marriage and what a bad person he was. But it's shrouded in failure. It's this didn't work. I couldn't make it happen. I did my best. There were obstacles too big for me. And that has implications for her entire life.

It was a piece of research where they experimented with giving people scenarios and asking them to assume the role of different people in scenarios. So one of the scenarios that I remember was a bicycle accident. where a car was driving and it hit a bicycle. It was not a terrible accident. Nobody was killed. But they asked people to assume the role of car driver.

It was a piece of research where they experimented with giving people scenarios and asking them to assume the role of different people in scenarios. So one of the scenarios that I remember was a bicycle accident. where a car was driving and it hit a bicycle. It was not a terrible accident. Nobody was killed. But they asked people to assume the role of car driver.

So in their stories, the bike driver is weaving all over the place and they're honking their horn and slowing down and skillfully trying to get around them. When they're in the role of bicyclists, it's this lunatic speeding driver came up behind me without any warning and scared the crap out of me.

So in their stories, the bike driver is weaving all over the place and they're honking their horn and slowing down and skillfully trying to get around them. When they're in the role of bicyclists, it's this lunatic speeding driver came up behind me without any warning and scared the crap out of me.

I know from the show you do that you know about the negativity bias, the profound effect of our brain of finding things wrong and looking for problems. And I know because of the work you do that you know about the confirmation bias. Our meaning-making apparati are so biased, but they are biased mostly in the direction of threat. Since threat, that negativity bias, is there to protect us,

I know from the show you do that you know about the negativity bias, the profound effect of our brain of finding things wrong and looking for problems. And I know because of the work you do that you know about the confirmation bias. Our meaning-making apparati are so biased, but they are biased mostly in the direction of threat. Since threat, that negativity bias, is there to protect us,

So many of the responses that we consider innate are actually off kilter because of our need and desperate biological necessity to deal with danger and threat. So in an accident, you're going to distort this to keep your ego intact to deal with the threat.

So many of the responses that we consider innate are actually off kilter because of our need and desperate biological necessity to deal with danger and threat. So in an accident, you're going to distort this to keep your ego intact to deal with the threat.

Our memories are state-dependent. So that when you're unhappy, that gives greater access in your brain to other times when you were unhappy. When you're angry, you have greater access to stories and times when you are angry. That is to allow us to draw upon the past as to how to solve the issue that we're dealing with now.

Our memories are state-dependent. So that when you're unhappy, that gives greater access in your brain to other times when you were unhappy. When you're angry, you have greater access to stories and times when you are angry. That is to allow us to draw upon the past as to how to solve the issue that we're dealing with now.

So it would do no good if you're angry now and your memory is access to lying on the beach in Hawaii. You're not gonna get much information.

So it would do no good if you're angry now and your memory is access to lying on the beach in Hawaii. You're not gonna get much information.

So when we have a habit of creating grievance stories around life, not only are we reacting to the current experience, but we get access to a pattern of creating grievance stories that makes the current story seem more real and the response to it seem more usual.

So when we have a habit of creating grievance stories around life, not only are we reacting to the current experience, but we get access to a pattern of creating grievance stories that makes the current story seem more real and the response to it seem more usual.

I mean, Alice, like everybody, tries usually what the fight-or-flight brain gives it. So if you don't like your in-laws, you go, well... I'm not going to talk to them, or I am going to tell them how I feel, or I'm going to stew, or I'm going to tell my husband to stop.

I mean, Alice, like everybody, tries usually what the fight-or-flight brain gives it. So if you don't like your in-laws, you go, well... I'm not going to talk to them, or I am going to tell them how I feel, or I'm going to stew, or I'm going to tell my husband to stop.

Or sometimes you say, well, none of that worked, so I won't talk to them, or I'll make the conversation short, or when they visit, I won't be here. And the really handy thing is, Instead of continuing strategies that don't help you, take 15 minutes and write them down. So we asked Alice, what do you do when your in-laws are not what you want them to be? She wrote down six things.

Or sometimes you say, well, none of that worked, so I won't talk to them, or I'll make the conversation short, or when they visit, I won't be here. And the really handy thing is, Instead of continuing strategies that don't help you, take 15 minutes and write them down. So we asked Alice, what do you do when your in-laws are not what you want them to be? She wrote down six things.

We said, did they work? She said, no. We said, don't do them again. And so we saved Alice a lot of grief Because if like being snarky to your in-laws is not helpful, at least don't be snarky. Say to yourself, I know what doesn't work. Let me see if I can experiment to find out what does work.

We said, did they work? She said, no. We said, don't do them again. And so we saved Alice a lot of grief Because if like being snarky to your in-laws is not helpful, at least don't be snarky. Say to yourself, I know what doesn't work. Let me see if I can experiment to find out what does work.

But that's the direct result of anger on the brain. Anger reduces blood flow to the prefrontal cortex, your thinking capacity and your creativity are dimmed. If you can soothe that anger in the moment, then you get your blood flow and your brain back and you get a chance to think of some different strategies. And that is the simplest description of how forgiveness is helpful.

But that's the direct result of anger on the brain. Anger reduces blood flow to the prefrontal cortex, your thinking capacity and your creativity are dimmed. If you can soothe that anger in the moment, then you get your blood flow and your brain back and you get a chance to think of some different strategies. And that is the simplest description of how forgiveness is helpful.

Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. Slow and deep. Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. And when your belly inhales, allow it to expand. And now bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you love. Just bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you really, really, really love. And try to feel that love in your body.

Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. Slow and deep. Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. And when your belly inhales, allow it to expand. And now bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you love. Just bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you really, really, really love. And try to feel that love in your body.

That is true for her. It's like, let me tell you. Now let me tell you. Now let me tell you again. Now let me call up grandma and tell her. The real suffering is when that failure and that loss become part of their identities. And so for somebody like Debbie, when we had encountered her, it was, hi, I'm Debbie, a woman with a lousy ex-husband and a failed marriage.

That is true for her. It's like, let me tell you. Now let me tell you. Now let me tell you again. Now let me call up grandma and tell her. The real suffering is when that failure and that loss become part of their identities. And so for somebody like Debbie, when we had encountered her, it was, hi, I'm Debbie, a woman with a lousy ex-husband and a failed marriage.

Try to almost feel it in your heart. And then you can open your eyes. What we taught Alice and all the women from Northern Ireland is When you get a picture or a thought about your mother-in-law or the murder, practice this. Don't allow your nervous system to be hijacked by stress. Practice this immediately.

Try to almost feel it in your heart. And then you can open your eyes. What we taught Alice and all the women from Northern Ireland is When you get a picture or a thought about your mother-in-law or the murder, practice this. Don't allow your nervous system to be hijacked by stress. Practice this immediately.

We told the women in Northern Ireland, you may have to practice this 50 times before it has an impact, but then you're starting to counter condition your stress response. With Alice, it wasn't quite that tough. So maybe after eight practices, we'd say, okay, you got your mind back. Now what can you do?

We told the women in Northern Ireland, you may have to practice this 50 times before it has an impact, but then you're starting to counter condition your stress response. With Alice, it wasn't quite that tough. So maybe after eight practices, we'd say, okay, you got your mind back. Now what can you do?

What might be a strategy to use with either your husband or your in-laws that doesn't bring back stress for you? And that becomes the inner guidepost. So she said, well, I guess I could just take a deep breath when they upset me. And I'd say, beautiful, try that. Or instead of giving your husband grief, ask for his help.

What might be a strategy to use with either your husband or your in-laws that doesn't bring back stress for you? And that becomes the inner guidepost. So she said, well, I guess I could just take a deep breath when they upset me. And I'd say, beautiful, try that. Or instead of giving your husband grief, ask for his help.

You can't come up with any of those solutions as long as fight or flight is active. So PERT is just a simple practice to shut that down.

You can't come up with any of those solutions as long as fight or flight is active. So PERT is just a simple practice to shut that down.

It's a study that reviewed all the research and suggested pathways for for how forgiveness could reduce the rumination and anger that are so constant companions to fibromyalgia. And they now know that the mental component of anger and rumination blends in with the pain pathways of the physical parts and amplifies it. So when you reduce your anger and rumination, you reduce the experience of pain.

It's a study that reviewed all the research and suggested pathways for for how forgiveness could reduce the rumination and anger that are so constant companions to fibromyalgia. And they now know that the mental component of anger and rumination blends in with the pain pathways of the physical parts and amplifies it. So when you reduce your anger and rumination, you reduce the experience of pain.

When anger becomes chronic, that appears to amplify those pain pathways. When anger is soothed, that piece of it can go away from the pain pathway.

When anger becomes chronic, that appears to amplify those pain pathways. When anger is soothed, that piece of it can go away from the pain pathway.

Well, we taught people about positive emotional intelligence centered on forgiveness. We took about 100 people in different work sites and we led them through this process of a little bit of coaching and a workshop and stuff like that. And then we evaluated at the end of like six months and it led people to be less stressed,

Well, we taught people about positive emotional intelligence centered on forgiveness. We took about 100 people in different work sites and we led them through this process of a little bit of coaching and a workshop and stuff like that. And then we evaluated at the end of like six months and it led people to be less stressed,

less angry, fewer symptoms of stress, but it also helped be more productive at work. That was the piece. Now, this is an uncontrolled study. We really didn't have a great control group, and it's one group, but it's the kind of study that suggests there might be more here than we acknowledge.

less angry, fewer symptoms of stress, but it also helped be more productive at work. That was the piece. Now, this is an uncontrolled study. We really didn't have a great control group, and it's one group, but it's the kind of study that suggests there might be more here than we acknowledge.

I wrote a blame letter about that. Here's all the things you did to ruin my life, so to speak. didn't give me what I want, but he wrote me back something that in retrospect wasn't as bad as I received it as, but because I had practiced arousal so much, I'm reading his letter and my blood pressure is like 200 over 120 and my mind's going ballistic and I have all these thoughts of anger and revenge.

I wrote a blame letter about that. Here's all the things you did to ruin my life, so to speak. didn't give me what I want, but he wrote me back something that in retrospect wasn't as bad as I received it as, but because I had practiced arousal so much, I'm reading his letter and my blood pressure is like 200 over 120 and my mind's going ballistic and I have all these thoughts of anger and revenge.

And this was the third learning point for me. I said to myself, nobody will ever get this control over my nervous system again long-term. So I took a deep breath and I stepped away. I pushed the letter away. I took a deep breath and I pushed myself away and I said, calm down, calm down. Then I started reading a bit and came up with PERT

And this was the third learning point for me. I said to myself, nobody will ever get this control over my nervous system again long-term. So I took a deep breath and I stepped away. I pushed the letter away. I took a deep breath and I pushed myself away and I said, calm down, calm down. Then I started reading a bit and came up with PERT

So that had meant that it was now integrated into her self-concept.

So that had meant that it was now integrated into her self-concept.

But his letter triggered every response that I had practiced for the last six months or a year. He fit right in with a stream going full. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to respond the way I want. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to be my friend as long as I want him to be my friend. I have an unenforceable rule. He can't take time off from the relationship.

But his letter triggered every response that I had practiced for the last six months or a year. He fit right in with a stream going full. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to respond the way I want. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to be my friend as long as I want him to be my friend. I have an unenforceable rule. He can't take time off from the relationship.

I then started to untangle those unenforceable rules.

I then started to untangle those unenforceable rules.

Well, after that blame letter, we didn't have contact. But I worked on myself. This is how I developed the forgiveness project. I started trying out my new story with my wife. I created a story that looked forward, not backward. And I got hope again.

Well, after that blame letter, we didn't have contact. But I worked on myself. This is how I developed the forgiveness project. I started trying out my new story with my wife. I created a story that looked forward, not backward. And I got hope again.

And then I don't remember who contacted who, but we met for dinner and I showed up in front of him and I sat down and I realized that I had forgiven him. But I also realized that all the work I had done for myself, I recognized that I was half the problem. That had I known how to handle this, it never would have escalated the way it did. So inside of myself, I said, I forgive you.

And then I don't remember who contacted who, but we met for dinner and I showed up in front of him and I sat down and I realized that I had forgiven him. But I also realized that all the work I had done for myself, I recognized that I was half the problem. That had I known how to handle this, it never would have escalated the way it did. So inside of myself, I said, I forgive you.

I didn't say anything to him. Within about a half an hour, we were the best of friends again. And nothing, there's not even been a blip in decades.

I didn't say anything to him. Within about a half an hour, we were the best of friends again. And nothing, there's not even been a blip in decades.

Hey, this was a delight. Again, thank you for helping me publicize forgiveness.

Hey, this was a delight. Again, thank you for helping me publicize forgiveness.

So she was, my mom didn't love me. I never got the kind of affection that I would hope for. I felt rejected and unwanted and I grew up with this sense of not being good enough and, you know, not having enough value in this world. And no matter what I said to mom, I couldn't get through to her. You know, like, mom, notice me. Mom, I'm around. Notice I matter. Mom was impenetrable.

So she was, my mom didn't love me. I never got the kind of affection that I would hope for. I felt rejected and unwanted and I grew up with this sense of not being good enough and, you know, not having enough value in this world. And no matter what I said to mom, I couldn't get through to her. You know, like, mom, notice me. Mom, I'm around. Notice I matter. Mom was impenetrable.

And so Jill brought that sense of frustration and invisibleness to the way she talked about what it was that had occurred 20 years ago when her mother had died. You could just feel the angst.

And so Jill brought that sense of frustration and invisibleness to the way she talked about what it was that had occurred 20 years ago when her mother had died. You could just feel the angst.

Precisely. And what you articulated is one of the unanticipated consequences of keeping a grievance alive. And they don't realize how integrated that wound or problem has become in their self-identity. And that link, that integration makes it seem really hard to imagine, what would I be without this?

Precisely. And what you articulated is one of the unanticipated consequences of keeping a grievance alive. And they don't realize how integrated that wound or problem has become in their self-identity. And that link, that integration makes it seem really hard to imagine, what would I be without this?

Sam was my closest friend for probably a decade. Somebody I considered almost a brother. and a very, very dear friend of my wife and I. I assumed that Sam would always hold that place in my life. So what happened or what transpired was he met someone who was, for whatever reason, uncomfortable with the relationship that Sam had with me and my wife.

Sam was my closest friend for probably a decade. Somebody I considered almost a brother. and a very, very dear friend of my wife and I. I assumed that Sam would always hold that place in my life. So what happened or what transpired was he met someone who was, for whatever reason, uncomfortable with the relationship that Sam had with me and my wife.

Yeah. And he just disappeared. We're best friends and now poof. And I couldn't connect with him. And the word ghosted did not exist then. But I was ghosted. And inside of me, I fell apart. I became bitter as my trust was shattered and I developed a bit of like an agitated depression.

Yeah. And he just disappeared. We're best friends and now poof. And I couldn't connect with him. And the word ghosted did not exist then. But I was ghosted. And inside of me, I fell apart. I became bitter as my trust was shattered and I developed a bit of like an agitated depression.

When a mutual friend came to my house and said, oh, by the way, You know, he's getting married. I had absolutely no ability to integrate that information. It hit me like bricks in my face. And I just, I crumbled.

When a mutual friend came to my house and said, oh, by the way, You know, he's getting married. I had absolutely no ability to integrate that information. It hit me like bricks in my face. And I just, I crumbled.

My wife turned to me one day and said, Fred, I still love you. I just don't like you as much.

My wife turned to me one day and said, Fred, I still love you. I just don't like you as much.

So I was, to put it kindly, crabby.

So I was, to put it kindly, crabby.

So my wife told me to go to the supermarket. And I told her I wanted to go to supermarket A because it was closer. She said, go to supermarket B, Safeway. It has what I want. I walked out of the door muttering, poor me. I get to Safeway muttering all the time, you know, people don't understand me and really like bitter.

So my wife told me to go to the supermarket. And I told her I wanted to go to supermarket A because it was closer. She said, go to supermarket B, Safeway. It has what I want. I walked out of the door muttering, poor me. I get to Safeway muttering all the time, you know, people don't understand me and really like bitter.

I walked to the place with the item that my wife is going to send me to Safeway for, and it's not there. And my self-pity is, like, overwhelming. Like, I could have gone to Albertsons. You know, why am I here? And nobody loves me, and nobody understands me. And my self-pity went to a kind of overdrive. But there was a moment where it broke.

I walked to the place with the item that my wife is going to send me to Safeway for, and it's not there. And my self-pity is, like, overwhelming. Like, I could have gone to Albertsons. You know, why am I here? And nobody loves me, and nobody understands me. And my self-pity went to a kind of overdrive. But there was a moment where it broke.

Just one moment, I turned away from the shelf where the item was supposed to be, and I noticed for the first time I'm in Safeway, big supermarket. I literally said to myself, holy , Fred, look what you're missing. You're missing abundance. This store has everything. You're missing apples and oranges and diapers and that you have the money to pay for this.

Just one moment, I turned away from the shelf where the item was supposed to be, and I noticed for the first time I'm in Safeway, big supermarket. I literally said to myself, holy , Fred, look what you're missing. You're missing abundance. This store has everything. You're missing apples and oranges and diapers and that you have the money to pay for this.

So I had a voice almost in me that said, pay attention, Fred, pay attention. I walked out of that supermarket and I was, I was different.

So I had a voice almost in me that said, pay attention, Fred, pay attention. I walked out of that supermarket and I was, I was different.

Dana is one of the people that even after a decade or more, I still remember. Her issue was that she was a great worker. for a local Silicon Valley company who worked above and beyond what anybody could expect from a employee. She came in early. She also was ambitious. And so she had an expectation that that best effort would lead to a promotion. So after a number of years of

Dana is one of the people that even after a decade or more, I still remember. Her issue was that she was a great worker. for a local Silicon Valley company who worked above and beyond what anybody could expect from a employee. She came in early. She also was ambitious. And so she had an expectation that that best effort would lead to a promotion. So after a number of years of

getting promoted appropriately, there was a bigger job right ahead of her that she just knew she was the right person for the job and had earned it. And when she found out that she didn't get that job, she became furious. I mean, hell hath no fury. I mean, because she had checked all the boxes.

getting promoted appropriately, there was a bigger job right ahead of her that she just knew she was the right person for the job and had earned it. And when she found out that she didn't get that job, she became furious. I mean, hell hath no fury. I mean, because she had checked all the boxes.

Wasted effort and that she was an idiot for putting in all that effort. It was a multi-pronged attack towards both her employer and towards herself.

Wasted effort and that she was an idiot for putting in all that effort. It was a multi-pronged attack towards both her employer and towards herself.

Thank you. Nice to see you again.

Thank you. Nice to see you again.

We're constantly trying to make meaning out of the world. And we have different levels of meaning making. We have like small things, you know, that this person said something unkind to me. And then we have these meta-narratives that say, You know, this isn't safe. And remember when your dad did what he did to you 20 years ago, which set you up upon a life which will not be safe.

We're constantly trying to make meaning out of the world. And we have different levels of meaning making. We have like small things, you know, that this person said something unkind to me. And then we have these meta-narratives that say, You know, this isn't safe. And remember when your dad did what he did to you 20 years ago, which set you up upon a life which will not be safe.

It makes it hard to just be with the experience and deal with the actual insult or not as it's happening or cognitively or emotionally with the best strategies.

It makes it hard to just be with the experience and deal with the actual insult or not as it's happening or cognitively or emotionally with the best strategies.

If you're happy, then your brain and nervous system make available to you all the other lovely things in your life so that you get to think, now, wow, the last time I was happy, I went and hugged my partner. So should I do that again?

If you're happy, then your brain and nervous system make available to you all the other lovely things in your life so that you get to think, now, wow, the last time I was happy, I went and hugged my partner. So should I do that again?

From the painful side, look at how brilliant it is to give you access to other times that you suffered and maybe to look through, well, were there strategies that I used that helped us? The problem is when it crowds out other memories, then you actually lose access to thinking rather than gain access and thinking. But the original kind of substrata is really smart.

From the painful side, look at how brilliant it is to give you access to other times that you suffered and maybe to look through, well, were there strategies that I used that helped us? The problem is when it crowds out other memories, then you actually lose access to thinking rather than gain access and thinking. But the original kind of substrata is really smart.

I'm going to add two things. It's not helpful. It's essential that if there is pain, difficulty, hostility, mistreatment, you have to remember it. You have to try to process it and deal with it. That's not just optional. It's like essential. The second piece, what I think you left out of the workplace is is the staggering amount of distraction that people have now.

I'm going to add two things. It's not helpful. It's essential that if there is pain, difficulty, hostility, mistreatment, you have to remember it. You have to try to process it and deal with it. That's not just optional. It's like essential. The second piece, what I think you left out of the workplace is is the staggering amount of distraction that people have now.

So not only are they in a workplace with maybe more interactions and more possible difficulties, their minds are frazzled even before they deal with anybody by emails, by texts, by relentless checking, by social media, by all of the just demands on their attention.

So not only are they in a workplace with maybe more interactions and more possible difficulties, their minds are frazzled even before they deal with anybody by emails, by texts, by relentless checking, by social media, by all of the just demands on their attention.

So they come into work already with a higher level of arousal because they're so used to getting stimulated by this relentless, um, attention and, and, you know, like I'm at you all day long. So that has to be factored in there as well.

So they come into work already with a higher level of arousal because they're so used to getting stimulated by this relentless, um, attention and, and, you know, like I'm at you all day long. So that has to be factored in there as well.

I'm going to add a third piece. Often we move away from somebody because we can't handle the disturbance, suffering, stress that come up in us, and we use distancing as a self-regulation strategy. So if my sister causes me every time I'm near her to feel anxious, angry, unsettled, sometimes if I don't have sufficient skill at going inward and rebalancing or whatever.

I'm going to add a third piece. Often we move away from somebody because we can't handle the disturbance, suffering, stress that come up in us, and we use distancing as a self-regulation strategy. So if my sister causes me every time I'm near her to feel anxious, angry, unsettled, sometimes if I don't have sufficient skill at going inward and rebalancing or whatever.

I'll just keep them away to try to manage my own reactivity. That's incredibly common. On the polarities that the listener sent you, it's not so simple. One of the mistakes that she presented was You can forgive someone and choose not to have contact with them. It's not either or. She could look at her sister and say, whatever you did, I'm not holding anything towards you. We're clean.

I'll just keep them away to try to manage my own reactivity. That's incredibly common. On the polarities that the listener sent you, it's not so simple. One of the mistakes that she presented was You can forgive someone and choose not to have contact with them. It's not either or. She could look at her sister and say, whatever you did, I'm not holding anything towards you. We're clean.

But enough is enough. You go your way. I go mine. But there's no bitterness in me. There's just... You know, we tried this for 40 years. It didn't work for me and have a lovely life for a while. And thank you. So they're not mutually exclusive. Um, what I would suggest is when you're dealing with your sister and like you want to see if you can rehearse even. connecting with her?

But enough is enough. You go your way. I go mine. But there's no bitterness in me. There's just... You know, we tried this for 40 years. It didn't work for me and have a lovely life for a while. And thank you. So they're not mutually exclusive. Um, what I would suggest is when you're dealing with your sister and like you want to see if you can rehearse even. connecting with her?

Like, are you able to create a, you know, a bond or an outreach, even just in practice, if not that significant information that this may go really deep? Second, on the other side of it, if you get into a really quiet, clean, gentle space, like You know, you're lying on the beach in Hawaii, and it's 92 degrees, and you just got out of the water.

Like, are you able to create a, you know, a bond or an outreach, even just in practice, if not that significant information that this may go really deep? Second, on the other side of it, if you get into a really quiet, clean, gentle space, like You know, you're lying on the beach in Hawaii, and it's 92 degrees, and you just got out of the water.

If your insides still tell you that, no, this person is not safe for you, it's probably deeply in you that that's what you feel. But if it's just that every time you think of joining or connecting with you get anxious or upset, that may not be enough inner guidance to follow long term.

If your insides still tell you that, no, this person is not safe for you, it's probably deeply in you that that's what you feel. But if it's just that every time you think of joining or connecting with you get anxious or upset, that may not be enough inner guidance to follow long term.

You know, if what I heard from her, if the word narcissist tendencies is real and not just becoming a cultural way of describing people that we don't like what they did, But if somebody has real narcissistic tendencies, you can't expect a full reciprocal relationship from them. You simply can't.

You know, if what I heard from her, if the word narcissist tendencies is real and not just becoming a cultural way of describing people that we don't like what they did, But if somebody has real narcissistic tendencies, you can't expect a full reciprocal relationship from them. You simply can't.

So within that context, any forgiveness is just for your own peace of mind so that you will calm your brain down, you will open your heart back up, never with the thought that that's going to improve them or have them see you as you are because a real narcissist can't see you as they are. They see themselves. Again, though, there's this confusion between reconciliation and forgiveness.

So within that context, any forgiveness is just for your own peace of mind so that you will calm your brain down, you will open your heart back up, never with the thought that that's going to improve them or have them see you as you are because a real narcissist can't see you as they are. They see themselves. Again, though, there's this confusion between reconciliation and forgiveness.

You can forgive someone who's unrepentant simply because you don't want to carry that in you. You make no assumption that that will change them. Now, somebody who has weaker narcissistic tendencies and you forgive them and you show up, sometimes that does influence them to reduce their side of it, but there is no guarantee.

You can forgive someone who's unrepentant simply because you don't want to carry that in you. You make no assumption that that will change them. Now, somebody who has weaker narcissistic tendencies and you forgive them and you show up, sometimes that does influence them to reduce their side of it, but there is no guarantee.

We can't know what will be good for someone else And we can't know their perception of what happened. We can only be as clear as possible about what our choices are and how our responses were.

We can't know what will be good for someone else And we can't know their perception of what happened. We can only be as clear as possible about what our choices are and how our responses were.

What a lovely description of the poles of a mind, you know, that is trying to integrate the heart but knows this is tough sledding. The real question is not should we forgive, but what's our most skillful action and what's the best mindset for moving ahead. Forgiveness is a pathway to the best mindset. It's not the mindset in and of itself.

What a lovely description of the poles of a mind, you know, that is trying to integrate the heart but knows this is tough sledding. The real question is not should we forgive, but what's our most skillful action and what's the best mindset for moving ahead. Forgiveness is a pathway to the best mindset. It's not the mindset in and of itself.

So when you're in a situation where you're vulnerable, like that listener just called in, and legitimately afraid That's not trivial, and that can't be swept under the rug by saying, well, I forgive them. It's not that simple.

So when you're in a situation where you're vulnerable, like that listener just called in, and legitimately afraid That's not trivial, and that can't be swept under the rug by saying, well, I forgive them. It's not that simple.

But at the same time, we recognize that simply hating or demonizing whatever it is we think caused our vulnerability, after a while, will diminish our own ability to take skillful action because we're tired from our anger and our resentment and clouds our judgment. So part of it is grieving and admitting our vulnerability and loss.

But at the same time, we recognize that simply hating or demonizing whatever it is we think caused our vulnerability, after a while, will diminish our own ability to take skillful action because we're tired from our anger and our resentment and clouds our judgment. So part of it is grieving and admitting our vulnerability and loss.

Secondly, joining together with other people who have similar experiences so there's some strength in numbers. And then really focusing on within the legitimate experience of our life, what's the most skillful action? How do we behave in a way that will get us closer to what our real goals are and not just have us dominated by fear or resentment? That's the piece that forgiveness clears out.

Secondly, joining together with other people who have similar experiences so there's some strength in numbers. And then really focusing on within the legitimate experience of our life, what's the most skillful action? How do we behave in a way that will get us closer to what our real goals are and not just have us dominated by fear or resentment? That's the piece that forgiveness clears out.

Well, it can be a couple of things. One, that the goal or motivation you align with, even when you're not upset or even when you're not meeting with other people in like shared outrage, But yeah, that's really what I believe in. Two, is it experimentally kind of verifiable? Like, I try this. Does it help?

Well, it can be a couple of things. One, that the goal or motivation you align with, even when you're not upset or even when you're not meeting with other people in like shared outrage, But yeah, that's really what I believe in. Two, is it experimentally kind of verifiable? Like, I try this. Does it help?

If it doesn't help, do I admit that I was not doing the best thing and go back and try something else? Do I maybe ask for advice as to other people's experience? Do I read up about past skillful action? Is my mind open to problem solving or is it motivated by resentment and revenge? Those are very different motivations and they give us different minds to evaluate the outcome.

If it doesn't help, do I admit that I was not doing the best thing and go back and try something else? Do I maybe ask for advice as to other people's experience? Do I read up about past skillful action? Is my mind open to problem solving or is it motivated by resentment and revenge? Those are very different motivations and they give us different minds to evaluate the outcome.

You'd have to be incredibly emotionally competent to say that. And you would have to have really emotionally competent parents to hear that. But it is a phenomenal strategy. And you could extrapolate that strategy to so many interpersonal difficulties, just so many. You could imagine how many intimate partners could bring that to each other. You know, you said this, it hurt me.

You'd have to be incredibly emotionally competent to say that. And you would have to have really emotionally competent parents to hear that. But it is a phenomenal strategy. And you could extrapolate that strategy to so many interpersonal difficulties, just so many. You could imagine how many intimate partners could bring that to each other. You know, you said this, it hurt me.

Part of me wants to strike back at you. Part of me wants to understand you. But underneath what you said, are some incredibly skillful means of, I'm responsible for my emotional state, I need to put what I'm feeling into words, and I trust people enough to share my vulnerability with them. None of those are easy for people to access.

Part of me wants to strike back at you. Part of me wants to understand you. But underneath what you said, are some incredibly skillful means of, I'm responsible for my emotional state, I need to put what I'm feeling into words, and I trust people enough to share my vulnerability with them. None of those are easy for people to access.

The answer to that is yes. There's a couple of steps that, you know, people need to look at. One of them is to legitimately acknowledge what you have done. That there really is no self-forgiveness without some acknowledgement, some remorse. You know, if you look at truth and reconciliation in South Africa is just a general model.

The answer to that is yes. There's a couple of steps that, you know, people need to look at. One of them is to legitimately acknowledge what you have done. That there really is no self-forgiveness without some acknowledgement, some remorse. You know, if you look at truth and reconciliation in South Africa is just a general model.

You know, there was a pretty strong public forum for, boy, did we do bad and this can't be hidden. So the first step is, to whatever degree possible, admit it to yourself.

You know, there was a pretty strong public forum for, boy, did we do bad and this can't be hidden. So the first step is, to whatever degree possible, admit it to yourself.

if safe, admitted to anybody you've harmed, and allow oneself to feel remorse, there is literature, you know, research on the value of a sincere apology, which is, I did it, my bad, hurt you, I make that link, I'm sorry, and if I can, I won't do it again. It is hard for many of us to have the humility of a sincere apology.

if safe, admitted to anybody you've harmed, and allow oneself to feel remorse, there is literature, you know, research on the value of a sincere apology, which is, I did it, my bad, hurt you, I make that link, I'm sorry, and if I can, I won't do it again. It is hard for many of us to have the humility of a sincere apology.

The last step is taken from the wisdom of the 12-step programs, which is whenever you can, make it right. Make amends. Now, if the person that you've harmed is just you, like you didn't harm anybody else, but You got drunk or you had a ridiculous sexual escapade that harmed your life. It's helpful to share with one or two trusted people as an offering.

The last step is taken from the wisdom of the 12-step programs, which is whenever you can, make it right. Make amends. Now, if the person that you've harmed is just you, like you didn't harm anybody else, but You got drunk or you had a ridiculous sexual escapade that harmed your life. It's helpful to share with one or two trusted people as an offering.

You do make a kind of inner mea culpa, but the amends is you make sure it doesn't happen again. You go to therapy, you go to 12 step programs, you take classes in anger management, whatever it is, but you need to do something positive. When those preconditions are met, you have absolutely no need for negative self-talk or bad feelings. You have done the basic requirements of self-forgiveness.

You do make a kind of inner mea culpa, but the amends is you make sure it doesn't happen again. You go to therapy, you go to 12 step programs, you take classes in anger management, whatever it is, but you need to do something positive. When those preconditions are met, you have absolutely no need for negative self-talk or bad feelings. You have done the basic requirements of self-forgiveness.

If you have to, you go see a therapist for a couple sessions. But you do not need at all that negative emotion once you've done those steps.

If you have to, you go see a therapist for a couple sessions. But you do not need at all that negative emotion once you've done those steps.

I mean, that is a very tough situation when somebody feels genuine remorse, wants to make it right, and is stymied. I have heard that multiple times. You know, there's two things that come to my mind immediately. One is some degree of self-examination. What was it that led me to not be there when they needed me? Is there something character or logic in me? Was I frightened? Was I preoccupied?

I mean, that is a very tough situation when somebody feels genuine remorse, wants to make it right, and is stymied. I have heard that multiple times. You know, there's two things that come to my mind immediately. One is some degree of self-examination. What was it that led me to not be there when they needed me? Is there something character or logic in me? Was I frightened? Was I preoccupied?

What was the flaw or weakness in me so that I can address it Or I can show this person deep vulnerability and reflection when I talk to them. Not just that I'm sorry, but it caused me to recognize how hard something like this is. Or, wow, I really struggle when somebody's needs are way bigger than mine. I may not always hear at the moment the depth of somebody's pain.

What was the flaw or weakness in me so that I can address it Or I can show this person deep vulnerability and reflection when I talk to them. Not just that I'm sorry, but it caused me to recognize how hard something like this is. Or, wow, I really struggle when somebody's needs are way bigger than mine. I may not always hear at the moment the depth of somebody's pain.

That would be one, you know, first of all, it helps her. But secondly, it creates a shared pain. The second thing is sometimes we can't turn back time. And there is a forgiveness element there that, you know, it's up to you. And I respect as best I can how you deal with your suffering. The third piece is now that I have learned this about the dangers, or even if I didn't do anything deliberately,

That would be one, you know, first of all, it helps her. But secondly, it creates a shared pain. The second thing is sometimes we can't turn back time. And there is a forgiveness element there that, you know, it's up to you. And I respect as best I can how you deal with your suffering. The third piece is now that I have learned this about the dangers, or even if I didn't do anything deliberately,

even if it was just a bad confluence of events where absolutely nobody is at fault. One of the things that she can do is move ahead with a renewed attention to make sure that this never happens again so that her radar are more finely attuned to other people's pain and

even if it was just a bad confluence of events where absolutely nobody is at fault. One of the things that she can do is move ahead with a renewed attention to make sure that this never happens again so that her radar are more finely attuned to other people's pain and

She can even use this as a teaching to tell other people never underestimate when people are suffering how vulnerable or how reactive they might be. So she can use her loss to help others. That's sometimes the best we can do.

She can even use this as a teaching to tell other people never underestimate when people are suffering how vulnerable or how reactive they might be. So she can use her loss to help others. That's sometimes the best we can do.

I mean, if you ask me about the factors that influence the ability to forgive, Research has picked up a few, not that many. One of them is gratitude, and it may be a surprise to you, but people who see the good in their lives are more capable of letting go of the bad. And that is a reasonably robust finding that, you know, if you wake up in the morning and it's a beautiful day out,

I mean, if you ask me about the factors that influence the ability to forgive, Research has picked up a few, not that many. One of them is gratitude, and it may be a surprise to you, but people who see the good in their lives are more capable of letting go of the bad. And that is a reasonably robust finding that, you know, if you wake up in the morning and it's a beautiful day out,

and you're delighted that you had breakfast, and you look at a picture of your kid and you go, I got a good life, then when somebody calls you and is rude, you're going to be more likely to hold it better. Now, let me add one or two other things to that. A home where you were raised, where forgiveness is modeled, is more likely imprinted on your brain than not.

and you're delighted that you had breakfast, and you look at a picture of your kid and you go, I got a good life, then when somebody calls you and is rude, you're going to be more likely to hold it better. Now, let me add one or two other things to that. A home where you were raised, where forgiveness is modeled, is more likely imprinted on your brain than not.

Did you see your parents forgive each other? Did you see your parents forgive you? That is a huge modeling that even can be pre-verbal, you know? Like, oh my gosh, I saw this. Second, Our nervous systems have something to do with our ability to forgive. There's a quality of human nervous system arousal where people are called hot reactors. You've met them. They get aroused very quickly.

Did you see your parents forgive each other? Did you see your parents forgive you? That is a huge modeling that even can be pre-verbal, you know? Like, oh my gosh, I saw this. Second, Our nervous systems have something to do with our ability to forgive. There's a quality of human nervous system arousal where people are called hot reactors. You've met them. They get aroused very quickly.

those people struggle like crazy to forgive because the adrenaline just comes so quickly and so strongly and pulsates into anger that that is a real challenge. The last thing that I will say is it also depends on the amount of practice you put in. You know, if you practice

those people struggle like crazy to forgive because the adrenaline just comes so quickly and so strongly and pulsates into anger that that is a real challenge. The last thing that I will say is it also depends on the amount of practice you put in. You know, if you practice

Just normally when you're cut off in traffic, when somebody cuts in front of you in the supermarket line, when the airplane is late and you're going to miss your connecting flight, you're practicing what you might need a year down the road when somebody doesn't behave right.

Just normally when you're cut off in traffic, when somebody cuts in front of you in the supermarket line, when the airplane is late and you're going to miss your connecting flight, you're practicing what you might need a year down the road when somebody doesn't behave right.

I'm going to add two things to that. One, there's also the statute of limitations, which most people forget about. Even if they're bringing an argument before the judge, most cases have five, seven-year statute of limitations And so that's the water dampening on that analogy, even though it's true.

I'm going to add two things to that. One, there's also the statute of limitations, which most people forget about. Even if they're bringing an argument before the judge, most cases have five, seven-year statute of limitations And so that's the water dampening on that analogy, even though it's true.

Secondly, forgiveness is not just for the self, but it's for the current important relationships in one's life that one wants to maintain and grow. And again, let's just use the judge analogy. So let's say that somebody does something that's wrong. There's nothing wrong with imposing a one-week sentence on them. But then you also want to be merciful. And that's missing often in the judge analogy.

Secondly, forgiveness is not just for the self, but it's for the current important relationships in one's life that one wants to maintain and grow. And again, let's just use the judge analogy. So let's say that somebody does something that's wrong. There's nothing wrong with imposing a one-week sentence on them. But then you also want to be merciful. And that's missing often in the judge analogy.

Sometimes you let people out for good behavior. Sometimes you commute their sentence. So we're looking at a complex life and we want to be careful not to lose the complex life on our over fixation with a negative experience.

Sometimes you let people out for good behavior. Sometimes you commute their sentence. So we're looking at a complex life and we want to be careful not to lose the complex life on our over fixation with a negative experience.

I thank you very much.

I thank you very much.

Thank you. Nice to see you again.

We're constantly trying to make meaning out of the world. And we have different levels of meaning making. We have like small things, you know, that this person said something unkind to me. And then we have these meta-narratives that say, You know, this isn't safe. And remember when your dad did what he did to you 20 years ago, which set you up upon a life which will not be safe.

It makes it hard to just be with the experience and deal with the actual insult or not as it's happening or cognitively or emotionally with the best strategies.

If you're happy, then your brain and nervous system make available to you all the other lovely things in your life so that you get to think, now, wow, the last time I was happy, I went and hugged my partner. So should I do that again?

From the painful side, look at how brilliant it is to give you access to other times that you suffered and maybe to look through, well, were there strategies that I used that helped us? The problem is when it crowds out other memories, then you actually lose access to thinking rather than gain access and thinking. But the original kind of substrata is really smart.

I'm going to add two things. It's not helpful. It's essential that if there is pain, difficulty, hostility, mistreatment, you have to remember it. You have to try to process it and deal with it. That's not just optional. It's like essential. The second piece, what I think you left out of the workplace is is the staggering amount of distraction that people have now.

So not only are they in a workplace with maybe more interactions and more possible difficulties, their minds are frazzled even before they deal with anybody by emails, by texts, by relentless checking, by social media, by all of the just demands on their attention.

So they come into work already with a higher level of arousal because they're so used to getting stimulated by this relentless, um, attention and, and, you know, like I'm at you all day long. So that has to be factored in there as well.

I'm going to add a third piece. Often we move away from somebody because we can't handle the disturbance, suffering, stress that come up in us, and we use distancing as a self-regulation strategy. So if my sister causes me every time I'm near her to feel anxious, angry, unsettled, sometimes if I don't have sufficient skill at going inward and rebalancing or whatever.

I'll just keep them away to try to manage my own reactivity. That's incredibly common. On the polarities that the listener sent you, it's not so simple. One of the mistakes that she presented was You can forgive someone and choose not to have contact with them. It's not either or. She could look at her sister and say, whatever you did, I'm not holding anything towards you. We're clean.

But enough is enough. You go your way. I go mine. But there's no bitterness in me. There's just... You know, we tried this for 40 years. It didn't work for me and have a lovely life for a while. And thank you. So they're not mutually exclusive. Um, what I would suggest is when you're dealing with your sister and like you want to see if you can rehearse even. connecting with her?

Like, are you able to create a, you know, a bond or an outreach, even just in practice, if not that significant information that this may go really deep? Second, on the other side of it, if you get into a really quiet, clean, gentle space, like You know, you're lying on the beach in Hawaii, and it's 92 degrees, and you just got out of the water.

If your insides still tell you that, no, this person is not safe for you, it's probably deeply in you that that's what you feel. But if it's just that every time you think of joining or connecting with you get anxious or upset, that may not be enough inner guidance to follow long term.

You know, if what I heard from her, if the word narcissist tendencies is real and not just becoming a cultural way of describing people that we don't like what they did, But if somebody has real narcissistic tendencies, you can't expect a full reciprocal relationship from them. You simply can't.

So within that context, any forgiveness is just for your own peace of mind so that you will calm your brain down, you will open your heart back up, never with the thought that that's going to improve them or have them see you as you are because a real narcissist can't see you as they are. They see themselves. Again, though, there's this confusion between reconciliation and forgiveness.

You can forgive someone who's unrepentant simply because you don't want to carry that in you. You make no assumption that that will change them. Now, somebody who has weaker narcissistic tendencies and you forgive them and you show up, sometimes that does influence them to reduce their side of it, but there is no guarantee.

We can't know what will be good for someone else And we can't know their perception of what happened. We can only be as clear as possible about what our choices are and how our responses were.

What a lovely description of the poles of a mind, you know, that is trying to integrate the heart but knows this is tough sledding. The real question is not should we forgive, but what's our most skillful action and what's the best mindset for moving ahead. Forgiveness is a pathway to the best mindset. It's not the mindset in and of itself.

So when you're in a situation where you're vulnerable, like that listener just called in, and legitimately afraid That's not trivial, and that can't be swept under the rug by saying, well, I forgive them. It's not that simple.

But at the same time, we recognize that simply hating or demonizing whatever it is we think caused our vulnerability, after a while, will diminish our own ability to take skillful action because we're tired from our anger and our resentment and clouds our judgment. So part of it is grieving and admitting our vulnerability and loss.

Secondly, joining together with other people who have similar experiences so there's some strength in numbers. And then really focusing on within the legitimate experience of our life, what's the most skillful action? How do we behave in a way that will get us closer to what our real goals are and not just have us dominated by fear or resentment? That's the piece that forgiveness clears out.

Well, it can be a couple of things. One, that the goal or motivation you align with, even when you're not upset or even when you're not meeting with other people in like shared outrage, But yeah, that's really what I believe in. Two, is it experimentally kind of verifiable? Like, I try this. Does it help?

If it doesn't help, do I admit that I was not doing the best thing and go back and try something else? Do I maybe ask for advice as to other people's experience? Do I read up about past skillful action? Is my mind open to problem solving or is it motivated by resentment and revenge? Those are very different motivations and they give us different minds to evaluate the outcome.

You'd have to be incredibly emotionally competent to say that. And you would have to have really emotionally competent parents to hear that. But it is a phenomenal strategy. And you could extrapolate that strategy to so many interpersonal difficulties, just so many. You could imagine how many intimate partners could bring that to each other. You know, you said this, it hurt me.

Part of me wants to strike back at you. Part of me wants to understand you. But underneath what you said, are some incredibly skillful means of, I'm responsible for my emotional state, I need to put what I'm feeling into words, and I trust people enough to share my vulnerability with them. None of those are easy for people to access.

The answer to that is yes. There's a couple of steps that, you know, people need to look at. One of them is to legitimately acknowledge what you have done. That there really is no self-forgiveness without some acknowledgement, some remorse. You know, if you look at truth and reconciliation in South Africa is just a general model.

You know, there was a pretty strong public forum for, boy, did we do bad and this can't be hidden. So the first step is, to whatever degree possible, admit it to yourself.

if safe, admitted to anybody you've harmed, and allow oneself to feel remorse, there is literature, you know, research on the value of a sincere apology, which is, I did it, my bad, hurt you, I make that link, I'm sorry, and if I can, I won't do it again. It is hard for many of us to have the humility of a sincere apology.

The last step is taken from the wisdom of the 12-step programs, which is whenever you can, make it right. Make amends. Now, if the person that you've harmed is just you, like you didn't harm anybody else, but You got drunk or you had a ridiculous sexual escapade that harmed your life. It's helpful to share with one or two trusted people as an offering.

You do make a kind of inner mea culpa, but the amends is you make sure it doesn't happen again. You go to therapy, you go to 12 step programs, you take classes in anger management, whatever it is, but you need to do something positive. When those preconditions are met, you have absolutely no need for negative self-talk or bad feelings. You have done the basic requirements of self-forgiveness.

If you have to, you go see a therapist for a couple sessions. But you do not need at all that negative emotion once you've done those steps.

I mean, that is a very tough situation when somebody feels genuine remorse, wants to make it right, and is stymied. I have heard that multiple times. You know, there's two things that come to my mind immediately. One is some degree of self-examination. What was it that led me to not be there when they needed me? Is there something character or logic in me? Was I frightened? Was I preoccupied?

What was the flaw or weakness in me so that I can address it Or I can show this person deep vulnerability and reflection when I talk to them. Not just that I'm sorry, but it caused me to recognize how hard something like this is. Or, wow, I really struggle when somebody's needs are way bigger than mine. I may not always hear at the moment the depth of somebody's pain.

That would be one, you know, first of all, it helps her. But secondly, it creates a shared pain. The second thing is sometimes we can't turn back time. And there is a forgiveness element there that, you know, it's up to you. And I respect as best I can how you deal with your suffering. The third piece is now that I have learned this about the dangers, or even if I didn't do anything deliberately,

even if it was just a bad confluence of events where absolutely nobody is at fault. One of the things that she can do is move ahead with a renewed attention to make sure that this never happens again so that her radar are more finely attuned to other people's pain and

She can even use this as a teaching to tell other people never underestimate when people are suffering how vulnerable or how reactive they might be. So she can use her loss to help others. That's sometimes the best we can do.

I mean, if you ask me about the factors that influence the ability to forgive, Research has picked up a few, not that many. One of them is gratitude, and it may be a surprise to you, but people who see the good in their lives are more capable of letting go of the bad. And that is a reasonably robust finding that, you know, if you wake up in the morning and it's a beautiful day out,

and you're delighted that you had breakfast, and you look at a picture of your kid and you go, I got a good life, then when somebody calls you and is rude, you're going to be more likely to hold it better. Now, let me add one or two other things to that. A home where you were raised, where forgiveness is modeled, is more likely imprinted on your brain than not.

Did you see your parents forgive each other? Did you see your parents forgive you? That is a huge modeling that even can be pre-verbal, you know? Like, oh my gosh, I saw this. Second, Our nervous systems have something to do with our ability to forgive. There's a quality of human nervous system arousal where people are called hot reactors. You've met them. They get aroused very quickly.

those people struggle like crazy to forgive because the adrenaline just comes so quickly and so strongly and pulsates into anger that that is a real challenge. The last thing that I will say is it also depends on the amount of practice you put in. You know, if you practice

Just normally when you're cut off in traffic, when somebody cuts in front of you in the supermarket line, when the airplane is late and you're going to miss your connecting flight, you're practicing what you might need a year down the road when somebody doesn't behave right.

I'm going to add two things to that. One, there's also the statute of limitations, which most people forget about. Even if they're bringing an argument before the judge, most cases have five, seven-year statute of limitations And so that's the water dampening on that analogy, even though it's true.

Secondly, forgiveness is not just for the self, but it's for the current important relationships in one's life that one wants to maintain and grow. And again, let's just use the judge analogy. So let's say that somebody does something that's wrong. There's nothing wrong with imposing a one-week sentence on them. But then you also want to be merciful. And that's missing often in the judge analogy.

Sometimes you let people out for good behavior. Sometimes you commute their sentence. So we're looking at a complex life and we want to be careful not to lose the complex life on our over fixation with a negative experience.

I thank you very much.

Exactly. The not getting the promotion. Dana heard that, that it's about Dana. She took it personally. It's my company, my job. I did all this work. I made all this effort. She took the no, the rejection, as a personal affront.

Absolutely. So there's no denying that Dana's body and mind were affected by not getting the job. What there is room to negotiate is how much of that effect had to do with Dana's expectations, not just the not getting the job.

So Alan had a wife who cheated on him. Like, And she didn't like try to hide it. You know, it was like, we're married, but you don't satisfy me. So, you know, I have an affair. And she shut him down if he started to complain or articulate his needs. So Alan just had one of those like doozies of a story. It's all her fault. The blame is the second piece of a three-part sequence.

It starts with taking it too personally, which you covered. When we take things too personally, our mind and body react in a very harsh, physically disruptive and emotionally suffering way. And then we have to talk to ourselves about what happened. So all three of those end up as this quality of blame. You did it to me. I'm not responsible for how bad I feel.

And I'm going to talk to myself that solidifies this as a blaming story.

You're spot on with that because when people are devastated... It's appropriate to be disrupted, dysregulated, confused, angry, lost, scared, and short-term. It's really helpful to have somebody to blame besides you.

When something happens, we have a choice of how we talk about it. And so we can talk about it as a normal life event, a catastrophe, something to cope with, you know, something I'm here to learn from, or a sign that the world is an unfair, unsafe place. What we lose when we get too deep into a grievance story is one, we have a choice. So that story of

hey, I got a really crappy deal with this wife and she messed up my life for six months. That's a healthy story for a month or so. You know, it's like that's how your brain rebalances and reorganizes itself from the disruption. And it can't go directly to, oh, let's think about this. I didn't make a good choice in marriage. She gave me lots of clues.

I didn't do X. You can't reorganize coherently right away. So she's a terrible human being is a wonderful way to reorganize. The grievance story is a practice for how it is we're going to explain to ourselves what happened and what's an appropriate response for us to deal with it. The practice of it is very useful short term and destructive long term.

When Dana wanted a promotion. She turned what she wanted into an expectation. I want to be promoted. She turned it into, I have to be promoted. When somebody gets married, they have a hope, you know, I want my partner to be faithful. but they change it into they have to be faithful. That is a rule for somebody else's behavior that you actually don't have power to enforce.

If you wake up in the morning and you say, hey, I got a big day today, it has to be sunny and it's pouring, most normal people recognize they don't control the weather. But when an adult person does something that you don't want, we bypass that, well, a normal adult person doesn't have to do what I want.

But when we create unenforceable rules, we start thinking an adult separate from me has to do what I want. They have to give me a promotion. They have to stay my friend. They have to be faithful. Or also, they have to talk to me. Those unenforceable rules are rigid rules. like substrates in our thinking that when they're broken, cause us to have all sorts of exaggerated distress.

You could say that. Let's just say it was a relationship challenge. But yes, there was one situation where she demanded that I do something in her home, and it was absolutely trivial. It was something along the lines of, don't put this back here. You have to put it back here. And she was yelling at me because I had put it back in the wrong place.

So she had an unenforceable, sons-in-law can't put things back where I don't want them put back. And then I had an unenforceable rule. Moms-in-law can't talk to me like this. I heard myself saying it. In my mind, you can't talk to me like this. And I ran out the front door. I literally ran out the front door, ran away from my wife and her family, literally took a run

because my unenforceable role was shouting at me, she can't do this. How dare she do this? Who is she to do this? I was gone for like an hour. My wife thought I was crazy enough to have gone back to California. She wondered, and I'm not blaming one shred of this on my mother-in-law,

I'm saying my rule, she broke my rule so strongly that I could only react that way because of the rule, not the reality of what she did.

So... Either during that run or later, I went to a pay phone. I didn't want to do it in the house. And I called up really close friends and I started to complain about my mother-in-law. And I got about 10 seconds in and the friend said, Fred, every time you go there, you call me to complain. And I looked at myself and I looked at him and said, but this one's serious.

And he said, I'm sure it's serious, but every single time you go there, you call us to complain about her and you want us to agree with you. So complain and we'll agree with you. But understand you do this every time. A light bulb went off. Wow. This woman owns me. She owns my nervous system. She owns my mind. She owns my feet. They take me to the phone. She owns me.

I mean, there's lots of information about how hostile thoughts, resentment, and blame are all negatives for long-term physical well-being. One of the studies that I liked when I was doing a lot of this was there was a linear relationship between blame and all cause like physical well-being. There is a good degree of evidence that hostile people have greater heart disease.

Yeah. And there was a recent study that linked what you're calling perseveration and anger. Both were linked to sleep quality.

Well, I mean the clearest and simplest link is with the stress response. So when you're angry or when you're pissed off or when you're blaming, you have a internalized sense of threat. Someone out there has hurt you or disappointed you or left you and you're not okay. So that sense of not okay,

you know, leads the brain and it signals to the adrenals and all sorts of changes to prepare you to, you know, run away. And run away doesn't have to be physically run away. It could be, I'll never talk to them again. That's a form of flight or fight them, be hostile. But the more you're angry and the more you're blaming yourself,

the more you arouse that system, the more you trigger an adrenalized response, the more you train your body to accommodate cortisol, the more your brain gets used to that pathway of reaction, it develops practice effects. It becomes easier to do because the templates become laid down more succinctly.

The immediacy of arousal of anything that's a threat to us is the reason why long-term grievances are so dangerous.

There's a distinction made between constructive and destructive anger. So when our arousal and our physiology and our threats say we need to protect ourselves, anger can be a really good response. So if somebody is hurting your kid, get angry. It's really helpful. If you see an injustice, get angry. Notice it and recognize you want this to change.

The destructive anger is when anger does not lead to useful action. When it just becomes perseverative, and in a grievance, it actually becomes a substitute for action. In a chronic anger situation, there's a little bit of dopamine that you get, that pleasure chemical, ah, I'm doing something about it, when actually you're doing nothing constructive about it.

The dopamine is a response to an anticipated value, But in anger, you never get that anticipated value unless you actually do something and change.

Hey, thank you so much.

No. I mean, issues, that's a nice way of putting it. Her husband was a serial adulterer. She had found him cheating numerous times. He said, I'm sorry. She said, OK, I'll take you back. He did it again.

So one time we brought them to the window of the fifth floor of the building on Stanford's campus. We opened the blinds and said, literally let the sun in that this murder is a horror, but it's in your past. And you want to make sure that this murder doesn't serve as like a full solar eclipse. And it doesn't mean that this didn't happen, but you can open back up to goodness.

And we gave them some practice in changing the story that they tell, the grievance story, not just to talk about how terrible it was, but what are some possibilities for moving forward.

I never tell people to forgive and forget. I tell them to forgive and remember differently. That is entirely different. I explain to them that forgiveness is not condoning. It's saving your life. I remind them that forgiveness has nothing to do with seeking justice. Forgiveness is inner healing and making peace with the life you had, not endlessly arguing with what you didn't get.

The other thing is the whole orientation is a profound empathy for how much someone has suffered and a plea for them to not continue parts of this suffering that are under your control by fighting hard against what actually happened. So there's an empathic plea. They stole so much from you. Don't let them steal more.

It was mixed. They themselves on the whole reported improvement in mood and a dimming of the symptoms of stress. When they went back to Northern Ireland, it became much more dicey because their communities didn't want to hear about forgiveness. They themselves didn't give me grief, but their communities were not interested in going to fancy California and learning to do this.

So that was one obstacle that we learned about. The most satisfying moment of this in a very difficult experience was the second time we brought these women back, plus family members, not all of them, And one of the women's daughters, a middle-aged woman, came to us and said, thank you for giving us our mother back. She was just grief-stricken. And, you know, we couldn't get through to her.

And you reminded her, you can be grief-stricken and still, in the present, try to love someone and hold what's still good in your life.

It can be for the other person. in an important intimate relationship. So if your partner cheats, you can forgive both to free you and them. But it's an unenforceable rule thinking that if I forgive them, like they're gonna change or they forgive me, we don't have control over the other. Part of the problem

Something snapped in her. She said, no more. You'll never treat me like this again. She threw him out. She filed for divorce. But when we met her, this guy owned her brain. And her conversation was just so dominated by him, him, him, him, him.

of unforgiveness is our lack of control of what happened makes us feel so vulnerable and threatened that if we don't come up with a strategy that puts some of the control back in our hands, we can feel lost and scared for a long time. The simplest example is an intimate partnership.

If your partner is a schnook and cheats on you and you don't let that go, then you sometimes bring that to the next relationship. You're going to cheat on me. I can't trust you. If you forgive it, it's not necessarily to help the past partner, but you open back up to a kind of trust so the next partner doesn't have to deal with your woundedness.

When I got off the phone with those friends, And I had already started the forgiveness project, but it wasn't finished. I realized I need a new story. I can't keep on telling everybody how terrible my mother-in-law is and how helpless I am. I came up with a new story, which is I asked myself, Fred, why are you here? Why are you visiting her?

And I said, because I want to support my partner, my wife, and I want my kids to know their grandma. So I said, why don't you act like it? You show up and you're a bear. You're not helping your wife. You're not helping your kids. If you can't do it, don't go. I wasn't there to get along with my mother-in-law. I was there to really support my wife.

It changed my behavior 180 degrees, changed me inside. And it transformed the forgiveness project into something really useful. Positive intention. What do you want? Why are you there? What positive thing can you move forward on so that the grievance is in the rear view mirror and not out your front windshield?

That was one of the most poignant experiences of my life. When my wife died, which is now about 13 years ago, I continued to visit her parents and I showed up at their home. And I knocked at the door and she comes out. I mean, we had made a peace together, but we hadn't like healed. And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia.

And she comes out and she looks at me and says, I don't think I was that nice to you sometimes, was I? And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia. And I said, no, at times you really weren't. And she said, I'm sorry. And I said, of course, fully accepted. The piece that completely ends this is I went back home, thought about that.

And here I am a big shot forgiveness teacher and an older woman makes the first step. That doesn't look good. And the next time I went and visited them, I knocked on her door. And I said, remember when you told me that you were sorry for treating me a certain way? I said, well, I'm here to apologize to you.

I'm sorry for all the ways that I may not have been a good son-in-law and just made your life harder. I'm deeply sorry for that. And I think we both hurt your daughter. So please accept my apology. She smiled a little. She was, you know, not fully there. Forgiveness, wrapped it up in a bow, we're both clean, and it's as if it never happened.

Oh, there's a sadness or a poignancy sometimes. When you see people who are hurt like that, her conversation is about my ex and the lost marriage and what a bad person he was. But it's shrouded in failure. It's this didn't work. I couldn't make it happen. I did my best. There were obstacles too big for me. And that has implications for her entire life.

It was a piece of research where they experimented with giving people scenarios and asking them to assume the role of different people in scenarios. So one of the scenarios that I remember was a bicycle accident. where a car was driving and it hit a bicycle. It was not a terrible accident. Nobody was killed. But they asked people to assume the role of car driver.

So in their stories, the bike driver is weaving all over the place and they're honking their horn and slowing down and skillfully trying to get around them. When they're in the role of bicyclists, it's this lunatic speeding driver came up behind me without any warning and scared the crap out of me.

I know from the show you do that you know about the negativity bias, the profound effect of our brain of finding things wrong and looking for problems. And I know because of the work you do that you know about the confirmation bias. Our meaning-making apparati are so biased, but they are biased mostly in the direction of threat. Since threat, that negativity bias, is there to protect us,

So many of the responses that we consider innate are actually off kilter because of our need and desperate biological necessity to deal with danger and threat. So in an accident, you're going to distort this to keep your ego intact to deal with the threat.

Our memories are state-dependent. So that when you're unhappy, that gives greater access in your brain to other times when you were unhappy. When you're angry, you have greater access to stories and times when you are angry. That is to allow us to draw upon the past as to how to solve the issue that we're dealing with now.

So it would do no good if you're angry now and your memory is access to lying on the beach in Hawaii. You're not gonna get much information.

So when we have a habit of creating grievance stories around life, not only are we reacting to the current experience, but we get access to a pattern of creating grievance stories that makes the current story seem more real and the response to it seem more usual.

I mean, Alice, like everybody, tries usually what the fight-or-flight brain gives it. So if you don't like your in-laws, you go, well... I'm not going to talk to them, or I am going to tell them how I feel, or I'm going to stew, or I'm going to tell my husband to stop.

Or sometimes you say, well, none of that worked, so I won't talk to them, or I'll make the conversation short, or when they visit, I won't be here. And the really handy thing is, Instead of continuing strategies that don't help you, take 15 minutes and write them down. So we asked Alice, what do you do when your in-laws are not what you want them to be? She wrote down six things.

We said, did they work? She said, no. We said, don't do them again. And so we saved Alice a lot of grief Because if like being snarky to your in-laws is not helpful, at least don't be snarky. Say to yourself, I know what doesn't work. Let me see if I can experiment to find out what does work.

But that's the direct result of anger on the brain. Anger reduces blood flow to the prefrontal cortex, your thinking capacity and your creativity are dimmed. If you can soothe that anger in the moment, then you get your blood flow and your brain back and you get a chance to think of some different strategies. And that is the simplest description of how forgiveness is helpful.

Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. Slow and deep. Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. And when your belly inhales, allow it to expand. And now bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you love. Just bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you really, really, really love. And try to feel that love in your body.

That is true for her. It's like, let me tell you. Now let me tell you. Now let me tell you again. Now let me call up grandma and tell her. The real suffering is when that failure and that loss become part of their identities. And so for somebody like Debbie, when we had encountered her, it was, hi, I'm Debbie, a woman with a lousy ex-husband and a failed marriage.

Try to almost feel it in your heart. And then you can open your eyes. What we taught Alice and all the women from Northern Ireland is When you get a picture or a thought about your mother-in-law or the murder, practice this. Don't allow your nervous system to be hijacked by stress. Practice this immediately.

We told the women in Northern Ireland, you may have to practice this 50 times before it has an impact, but then you're starting to counter condition your stress response. With Alice, it wasn't quite that tough. So maybe after eight practices, we'd say, okay, you got your mind back. Now what can you do?

What might be a strategy to use with either your husband or your in-laws that doesn't bring back stress for you? And that becomes the inner guidepost. So she said, well, I guess I could just take a deep breath when they upset me. And I'd say, beautiful, try that. Or instead of giving your husband grief, ask for his help.

You can't come up with any of those solutions as long as fight or flight is active. So PERT is just a simple practice to shut that down.

It's a study that reviewed all the research and suggested pathways for for how forgiveness could reduce the rumination and anger that are so constant companions to fibromyalgia. And they now know that the mental component of anger and rumination blends in with the pain pathways of the physical parts and amplifies it. So when you reduce your anger and rumination, you reduce the experience of pain.

When anger becomes chronic, that appears to amplify those pain pathways. When anger is soothed, that piece of it can go away from the pain pathway.

Well, we taught people about positive emotional intelligence centered on forgiveness. We took about 100 people in different work sites and we led them through this process of a little bit of coaching and a workshop and stuff like that. And then we evaluated at the end of like six months and it led people to be less stressed,

less angry, fewer symptoms of stress, but it also helped be more productive at work. That was the piece. Now, this is an uncontrolled study. We really didn't have a great control group, and it's one group, but it's the kind of study that suggests there might be more here than we acknowledge.

I wrote a blame letter about that. Here's all the things you did to ruin my life, so to speak. didn't give me what I want, but he wrote me back something that in retrospect wasn't as bad as I received it as, but because I had practiced arousal so much, I'm reading his letter and my blood pressure is like 200 over 120 and my mind's going ballistic and I have all these thoughts of anger and revenge.

And this was the third learning point for me. I said to myself, nobody will ever get this control over my nervous system again long-term. So I took a deep breath and I stepped away. I pushed the letter away. I took a deep breath and I pushed myself away and I said, calm down, calm down. Then I started reading a bit and came up with PERT

So that had meant that it was now integrated into her self-concept.

But his letter triggered every response that I had practiced for the last six months or a year. He fit right in with a stream going full. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to respond the way I want. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to be my friend as long as I want him to be my friend. I have an unenforceable rule. He can't take time off from the relationship.

I then started to untangle those unenforceable rules.

Well, after that blame letter, we didn't have contact. But I worked on myself. This is how I developed the forgiveness project. I started trying out my new story with my wife. I created a story that looked forward, not backward. And I got hope again.

And then I don't remember who contacted who, but we met for dinner and I showed up in front of him and I sat down and I realized that I had forgiven him. But I also realized that all the work I had done for myself, I recognized that I was half the problem. That had I known how to handle this, it never would have escalated the way it did. So inside of myself, I said, I forgive you.

I didn't say anything to him. Within about a half an hour, we were the best of friends again. And nothing, there's not even been a blip in decades.

Hey, this was a delight. Again, thank you for helping me publicize forgiveness.

So she was, my mom didn't love me. I never got the kind of affection that I would hope for. I felt rejected and unwanted and I grew up with this sense of not being good enough and, you know, not having enough value in this world. And no matter what I said to mom, I couldn't get through to her. You know, like, mom, notice me. Mom, I'm around. Notice I matter. Mom was impenetrable.

And so Jill brought that sense of frustration and invisibleness to the way she talked about what it was that had occurred 20 years ago when her mother had died. You could just feel the angst.

Precisely. And what you articulated is one of the unanticipated consequences of keeping a grievance alive. And they don't realize how integrated that wound or problem has become in their self-identity. And that link, that integration makes it seem really hard to imagine, what would I be without this?

Sam was my closest friend for probably a decade. Somebody I considered almost a brother. and a very, very dear friend of my wife and I. I assumed that Sam would always hold that place in my life. So what happened or what transpired was he met someone who was, for whatever reason, uncomfortable with the relationship that Sam had with me and my wife.

Yeah. And he just disappeared. We're best friends and now poof. And I couldn't connect with him. And the word ghosted did not exist then. But I was ghosted. And inside of me, I fell apart. I became bitter as my trust was shattered and I developed a bit of like an agitated depression.

When a mutual friend came to my house and said, oh, by the way, You know, he's getting married. I had absolutely no ability to integrate that information. It hit me like bricks in my face. And I just, I crumbled.

My wife turned to me one day and said, Fred, I still love you. I just don't like you as much.

So I was, to put it kindly, crabby.

So my wife told me to go to the supermarket. And I told her I wanted to go to supermarket A because it was closer. She said, go to supermarket B, Safeway. It has what I want. I walked out of the door muttering, poor me. I get to Safeway muttering all the time, you know, people don't understand me and really like bitter.

I walked to the place with the item that my wife is going to send me to Safeway for, and it's not there. And my self-pity is, like, overwhelming. Like, I could have gone to Albertsons. You know, why am I here? And nobody loves me, and nobody understands me. And my self-pity went to a kind of overdrive. But there was a moment where it broke.

Just one moment, I turned away from the shelf where the item was supposed to be, and I noticed for the first time I'm in Safeway, big supermarket. I literally said to myself, holy , Fred, look what you're missing. You're missing abundance. This store has everything. You're missing apples and oranges and diapers and that you have the money to pay for this.

So I had a voice almost in me that said, pay attention, Fred, pay attention. I walked out of that supermarket and I was, I was different.

Dana is one of the people that even after a decade or more, I still remember. Her issue was that she was a great worker. for a local Silicon Valley company who worked above and beyond what anybody could expect from a employee. She came in early. She also was ambitious. And so she had an expectation that that best effort would lead to a promotion. So after a number of years of

getting promoted appropriately, there was a bigger job right ahead of her that she just knew she was the right person for the job and had earned it. And when she found out that she didn't get that job, she became furious. I mean, hell hath no fury. I mean, because she had checked all the boxes.

Wasted effort and that she was an idiot for putting in all that effort. It was a multi-pronged attack towards both her employer and towards herself.

Exactly. The not getting the promotion. Dana heard that, that it's about Dana. She took it personally. It's my company, my job. I did all this work. I made all this effort. She took the no, the rejection, as a personal affront.

Exactly. The not getting the promotion. Dana heard that, that it's about Dana. She took it personally. It's my company, my job. I did all this work. I made all this effort. She took the no, the rejection, as a personal affront.

Absolutely. So there's no denying that Dana's body and mind were affected by not getting the job. What there is room to negotiate is how much of that effect had to do with Dana's expectations, not just the not getting the job.

Absolutely. So there's no denying that Dana's body and mind were affected by not getting the job. What there is room to negotiate is how much of that effect had to do with Dana's expectations, not just the not getting the job.

So Alan had a wife who cheated on him. Like, And she didn't like try to hide it. You know, it was like, we're married, but you don't satisfy me. So, you know, I have an affair. And she shut him down if he started to complain or articulate his needs. So Alan just had one of those like doozies of a story. It's all her fault. The blame is the second piece of a three-part sequence.

So Alan had a wife who cheated on him. Like, And she didn't like try to hide it. You know, it was like, we're married, but you don't satisfy me. So, you know, I have an affair. And she shut him down if he started to complain or articulate his needs. So Alan just had one of those like doozies of a story. It's all her fault. The blame is the second piece of a three-part sequence.

It starts with taking it too personally, which you covered. When we take things too personally, our mind and body react in a very harsh, physically disruptive and emotionally suffering way. And then we have to talk to ourselves about what happened. So all three of those end up as this quality of blame. You did it to me. I'm not responsible for how bad I feel.

It starts with taking it too personally, which you covered. When we take things too personally, our mind and body react in a very harsh, physically disruptive and emotionally suffering way. And then we have to talk to ourselves about what happened. So all three of those end up as this quality of blame. You did it to me. I'm not responsible for how bad I feel.

And I'm going to talk to myself that solidifies this as a blaming story.

And I'm going to talk to myself that solidifies this as a blaming story.

You're spot on with that because when people are devastated... It's appropriate to be disrupted, dysregulated, confused, angry, lost, scared, and short-term. It's really helpful to have somebody to blame besides you.

You're spot on with that because when people are devastated... It's appropriate to be disrupted, dysregulated, confused, angry, lost, scared, and short-term. It's really helpful to have somebody to blame besides you.

When something happens, we have a choice of how we talk about it. And so we can talk about it as a normal life event, a catastrophe, something to cope with, you know, something I'm here to learn from, or a sign that the world is an unfair, unsafe place. What we lose when we get too deep into a grievance story is one, we have a choice. So that story of

When something happens, we have a choice of how we talk about it. And so we can talk about it as a normal life event, a catastrophe, something to cope with, you know, something I'm here to learn from, or a sign that the world is an unfair, unsafe place. What we lose when we get too deep into a grievance story is one, we have a choice. So that story of

hey, I got a really crappy deal with this wife and she messed up my life for six months. That's a healthy story for a month or so. You know, it's like that's how your brain rebalances and reorganizes itself from the disruption. And it can't go directly to, oh, let's think about this. I didn't make a good choice in marriage. She gave me lots of clues.

hey, I got a really crappy deal with this wife and she messed up my life for six months. That's a healthy story for a month or so. You know, it's like that's how your brain rebalances and reorganizes itself from the disruption. And it can't go directly to, oh, let's think about this. I didn't make a good choice in marriage. She gave me lots of clues.

I didn't do X. You can't reorganize coherently right away. So she's a terrible human being is a wonderful way to reorganize. The grievance story is a practice for how it is we're going to explain to ourselves what happened and what's an appropriate response for us to deal with it. The practice of it is very useful short term and destructive long term.

I didn't do X. You can't reorganize coherently right away. So she's a terrible human being is a wonderful way to reorganize. The grievance story is a practice for how it is we're going to explain to ourselves what happened and what's an appropriate response for us to deal with it. The practice of it is very useful short term and destructive long term.

When Dana wanted a promotion. She turned what she wanted into an expectation. I want to be promoted. She turned it into, I have to be promoted. When somebody gets married, they have a hope, you know, I want my partner to be faithful. but they change it into they have to be faithful. That is a rule for somebody else's behavior that you actually don't have power to enforce.

When Dana wanted a promotion. She turned what she wanted into an expectation. I want to be promoted. She turned it into, I have to be promoted. When somebody gets married, they have a hope, you know, I want my partner to be faithful. but they change it into they have to be faithful. That is a rule for somebody else's behavior that you actually don't have power to enforce.

If you wake up in the morning and you say, hey, I got a big day today, it has to be sunny and it's pouring, most normal people recognize they don't control the weather. But when an adult person does something that you don't want, we bypass that, well, a normal adult person doesn't have to do what I want.

If you wake up in the morning and you say, hey, I got a big day today, it has to be sunny and it's pouring, most normal people recognize they don't control the weather. But when an adult person does something that you don't want, we bypass that, well, a normal adult person doesn't have to do what I want.

But when we create unenforceable rules, we start thinking an adult separate from me has to do what I want. They have to give me a promotion. They have to stay my friend. They have to be faithful. Or also, they have to talk to me. Those unenforceable rules are rigid rules. like substrates in our thinking that when they're broken, cause us to have all sorts of exaggerated distress.

But when we create unenforceable rules, we start thinking an adult separate from me has to do what I want. They have to give me a promotion. They have to stay my friend. They have to be faithful. Or also, they have to talk to me. Those unenforceable rules are rigid rules. like substrates in our thinking that when they're broken, cause us to have all sorts of exaggerated distress.

You could say that. Let's just say it was a relationship challenge. But yes, there was one situation where she demanded that I do something in her home, and it was absolutely trivial. It was something along the lines of, don't put this back here. You have to put it back here. And she was yelling at me because I had put it back in the wrong place.

You could say that. Let's just say it was a relationship challenge. But yes, there was one situation where she demanded that I do something in her home, and it was absolutely trivial. It was something along the lines of, don't put this back here. You have to put it back here. And she was yelling at me because I had put it back in the wrong place.

So she had an unenforceable, sons-in-law can't put things back where I don't want them put back. And then I had an unenforceable rule. Moms-in-law can't talk to me like this. I heard myself saying it. In my mind, you can't talk to me like this. And I ran out the front door. I literally ran out the front door, ran away from my wife and her family, literally took a run

So she had an unenforceable, sons-in-law can't put things back where I don't want them put back. And then I had an unenforceable rule. Moms-in-law can't talk to me like this. I heard myself saying it. In my mind, you can't talk to me like this. And I ran out the front door. I literally ran out the front door, ran away from my wife and her family, literally took a run

because my unenforceable role was shouting at me, she can't do this. How dare she do this? Who is she to do this? I was gone for like an hour. My wife thought I was crazy enough to have gone back to California. She wondered, and I'm not blaming one shred of this on my mother-in-law,

because my unenforceable role was shouting at me, she can't do this. How dare she do this? Who is she to do this? I was gone for like an hour. My wife thought I was crazy enough to have gone back to California. She wondered, and I'm not blaming one shred of this on my mother-in-law,

I'm saying my rule, she broke my rule so strongly that I could only react that way because of the rule, not the reality of what she did.

I'm saying my rule, she broke my rule so strongly that I could only react that way because of the rule, not the reality of what she did.

So... Either during that run or later, I went to a pay phone. I didn't want to do it in the house. And I called up really close friends and I started to complain about my mother-in-law. And I got about 10 seconds in and the friend said, Fred, every time you go there, you call me to complain. And I looked at myself and I looked at him and said, but this one's serious.

So... Either during that run or later, I went to a pay phone. I didn't want to do it in the house. And I called up really close friends and I started to complain about my mother-in-law. And I got about 10 seconds in and the friend said, Fred, every time you go there, you call me to complain. And I looked at myself and I looked at him and said, but this one's serious.

And he said, I'm sure it's serious, but every single time you go there, you call us to complain about her and you want us to agree with you. So complain and we'll agree with you. But understand you do this every time. A light bulb went off. Wow. This woman owns me. She owns my nervous system. She owns my mind. She owns my feet. They take me to the phone. She owns me.

And he said, I'm sure it's serious, but every single time you go there, you call us to complain about her and you want us to agree with you. So complain and we'll agree with you. But understand you do this every time. A light bulb went off. Wow. This woman owns me. She owns my nervous system. She owns my mind. She owns my feet. They take me to the phone. She owns me.

I mean, there's lots of information about how hostile thoughts, resentment, and blame are all negatives for long-term physical well-being. One of the studies that I liked when I was doing a lot of this was there was a linear relationship between blame and all cause like physical well-being. There is a good degree of evidence that hostile people have greater heart disease.

I mean, there's lots of information about how hostile thoughts, resentment, and blame are all negatives for long-term physical well-being. One of the studies that I liked when I was doing a lot of this was there was a linear relationship between blame and all cause like physical well-being. There is a good degree of evidence that hostile people have greater heart disease.

Yeah. And there was a recent study that linked what you're calling perseveration and anger. Both were linked to sleep quality.

Yeah. And there was a recent study that linked what you're calling perseveration and anger. Both were linked to sleep quality.

Well, I mean the clearest and simplest link is with the stress response. So when you're angry or when you're pissed off or when you're blaming, you have a internalized sense of threat. Someone out there has hurt you or disappointed you or left you and you're not okay. So that sense of not okay,

Well, I mean the clearest and simplest link is with the stress response. So when you're angry or when you're pissed off or when you're blaming, you have a internalized sense of threat. Someone out there has hurt you or disappointed you or left you and you're not okay. So that sense of not okay,

you know, leads the brain and it signals to the adrenals and all sorts of changes to prepare you to, you know, run away. And run away doesn't have to be physically run away. It could be, I'll never talk to them again. That's a form of flight or fight them, be hostile. But the more you're angry and the more you're blaming yourself,

you know, leads the brain and it signals to the adrenals and all sorts of changes to prepare you to, you know, run away. And run away doesn't have to be physically run away. It could be, I'll never talk to them again. That's a form of flight or fight them, be hostile. But the more you're angry and the more you're blaming yourself,

the more you arouse that system, the more you trigger an adrenalized response, the more you train your body to accommodate cortisol, the more your brain gets used to that pathway of reaction, it develops practice effects. It becomes easier to do because the templates become laid down more succinctly.

the more you arouse that system, the more you trigger an adrenalized response, the more you train your body to accommodate cortisol, the more your brain gets used to that pathway of reaction, it develops practice effects. It becomes easier to do because the templates become laid down more succinctly.

The immediacy of arousal of anything that's a threat to us is the reason why long-term grievances are so dangerous.

The immediacy of arousal of anything that's a threat to us is the reason why long-term grievances are so dangerous.

There's a distinction made between constructive and destructive anger. So when our arousal and our physiology and our threats say we need to protect ourselves, anger can be a really good response. So if somebody is hurting your kid, get angry. It's really helpful. If you see an injustice, get angry. Notice it and recognize you want this to change.

There's a distinction made between constructive and destructive anger. So when our arousal and our physiology and our threats say we need to protect ourselves, anger can be a really good response. So if somebody is hurting your kid, get angry. It's really helpful. If you see an injustice, get angry. Notice it and recognize you want this to change.

The destructive anger is when anger does not lead to useful action. When it just becomes perseverative, and in a grievance, it actually becomes a substitute for action. In a chronic anger situation, there's a little bit of dopamine that you get, that pleasure chemical, ah, I'm doing something about it, when actually you're doing nothing constructive about it.

The destructive anger is when anger does not lead to useful action. When it just becomes perseverative, and in a grievance, it actually becomes a substitute for action. In a chronic anger situation, there's a little bit of dopamine that you get, that pleasure chemical, ah, I'm doing something about it, when actually you're doing nothing constructive about it.

The dopamine is a response to an anticipated value, But in anger, you never get that anticipated value unless you actually do something and change.

The dopamine is a response to an anticipated value, But in anger, you never get that anticipated value unless you actually do something and change.

Hey, thank you so much.

Hey, thank you so much.

No. I mean, issues, that's a nice way of putting it. Her husband was a serial adulterer. She had found him cheating numerous times. He said, I'm sorry. She said, OK, I'll take you back. He did it again.

No. I mean, issues, that's a nice way of putting it. Her husband was a serial adulterer. She had found him cheating numerous times. He said, I'm sorry. She said, OK, I'll take you back. He did it again.

So one time we brought them to the window of the fifth floor of the building on Stanford's campus. We opened the blinds and said, literally let the sun in that this murder is a horror, but it's in your past. And you want to make sure that this murder doesn't serve as like a full solar eclipse. And it doesn't mean that this didn't happen, but you can open back up to goodness.

So one time we brought them to the window of the fifth floor of the building on Stanford's campus. We opened the blinds and said, literally let the sun in that this murder is a horror, but it's in your past. And you want to make sure that this murder doesn't serve as like a full solar eclipse. And it doesn't mean that this didn't happen, but you can open back up to goodness.

And we gave them some practice in changing the story that they tell, the grievance story, not just to talk about how terrible it was, but what are some possibilities for moving forward.

And we gave them some practice in changing the story that they tell, the grievance story, not just to talk about how terrible it was, but what are some possibilities for moving forward.

I never tell people to forgive and forget. I tell them to forgive and remember differently. That is entirely different. I explain to them that forgiveness is not condoning. It's saving your life. I remind them that forgiveness has nothing to do with seeking justice. Forgiveness is inner healing and making peace with the life you had, not endlessly arguing with what you didn't get.

I never tell people to forgive and forget. I tell them to forgive and remember differently. That is entirely different. I explain to them that forgiveness is not condoning. It's saving your life. I remind them that forgiveness has nothing to do with seeking justice. Forgiveness is inner healing and making peace with the life you had, not endlessly arguing with what you didn't get.

The other thing is the whole orientation is a profound empathy for how much someone has suffered and a plea for them to not continue parts of this suffering that are under your control by fighting hard against what actually happened. So there's an empathic plea. They stole so much from you. Don't let them steal more.

The other thing is the whole orientation is a profound empathy for how much someone has suffered and a plea for them to not continue parts of this suffering that are under your control by fighting hard against what actually happened. So there's an empathic plea. They stole so much from you. Don't let them steal more.

It was mixed. They themselves on the whole reported improvement in mood and a dimming of the symptoms of stress. When they went back to Northern Ireland, it became much more dicey because their communities didn't want to hear about forgiveness. They themselves didn't give me grief, but their communities were not interested in going to fancy California and learning to do this.

It was mixed. They themselves on the whole reported improvement in mood and a dimming of the symptoms of stress. When they went back to Northern Ireland, it became much more dicey because their communities didn't want to hear about forgiveness. They themselves didn't give me grief, but their communities were not interested in going to fancy California and learning to do this.

So that was one obstacle that we learned about. The most satisfying moment of this in a very difficult experience was the second time we brought these women back, plus family members, not all of them, And one of the women's daughters, a middle-aged woman, came to us and said, thank you for giving us our mother back. She was just grief-stricken. And, you know, we couldn't get through to her.

So that was one obstacle that we learned about. The most satisfying moment of this in a very difficult experience was the second time we brought these women back, plus family members, not all of them, And one of the women's daughters, a middle-aged woman, came to us and said, thank you for giving us our mother back. She was just grief-stricken. And, you know, we couldn't get through to her.

And you reminded her, you can be grief-stricken and still, in the present, try to love someone and hold what's still good in your life.

And you reminded her, you can be grief-stricken and still, in the present, try to love someone and hold what's still good in your life.

It can be for the other person. in an important intimate relationship. So if your partner cheats, you can forgive both to free you and them. But it's an unenforceable rule thinking that if I forgive them, like they're gonna change or they forgive me, we don't have control over the other. Part of the problem

It can be for the other person. in an important intimate relationship. So if your partner cheats, you can forgive both to free you and them. But it's an unenforceable rule thinking that if I forgive them, like they're gonna change or they forgive me, we don't have control over the other. Part of the problem

Something snapped in her. She said, no more. You'll never treat me like this again. She threw him out. She filed for divorce. But when we met her, this guy owned her brain. And her conversation was just so dominated by him, him, him, him, him.

Something snapped in her. She said, no more. You'll never treat me like this again. She threw him out. She filed for divorce. But when we met her, this guy owned her brain. And her conversation was just so dominated by him, him, him, him, him.

of unforgiveness is our lack of control of what happened makes us feel so vulnerable and threatened that if we don't come up with a strategy that puts some of the control back in our hands, we can feel lost and scared for a long time. The simplest example is an intimate partnership.

of unforgiveness is our lack of control of what happened makes us feel so vulnerable and threatened that if we don't come up with a strategy that puts some of the control back in our hands, we can feel lost and scared for a long time. The simplest example is an intimate partnership.

If your partner is a schnook and cheats on you and you don't let that go, then you sometimes bring that to the next relationship. You're going to cheat on me. I can't trust you. If you forgive it, it's not necessarily to help the past partner, but you open back up to a kind of trust so the next partner doesn't have to deal with your woundedness.

If your partner is a schnook and cheats on you and you don't let that go, then you sometimes bring that to the next relationship. You're going to cheat on me. I can't trust you. If you forgive it, it's not necessarily to help the past partner, but you open back up to a kind of trust so the next partner doesn't have to deal with your woundedness.

When I got off the phone with those friends, And I had already started the forgiveness project, but it wasn't finished. I realized I need a new story. I can't keep on telling everybody how terrible my mother-in-law is and how helpless I am. I came up with a new story, which is I asked myself, Fred, why are you here? Why are you visiting her?

When I got off the phone with those friends, And I had already started the forgiveness project, but it wasn't finished. I realized I need a new story. I can't keep on telling everybody how terrible my mother-in-law is and how helpless I am. I came up with a new story, which is I asked myself, Fred, why are you here? Why are you visiting her?

And I said, because I want to support my partner, my wife, and I want my kids to know their grandma. So I said, why don't you act like it? You show up and you're a bear. You're not helping your wife. You're not helping your kids. If you can't do it, don't go. I wasn't there to get along with my mother-in-law. I was there to really support my wife.

And I said, because I want to support my partner, my wife, and I want my kids to know their grandma. So I said, why don't you act like it? You show up and you're a bear. You're not helping your wife. You're not helping your kids. If you can't do it, don't go. I wasn't there to get along with my mother-in-law. I was there to really support my wife.

It changed my behavior 180 degrees, changed me inside. And it transformed the forgiveness project into something really useful. Positive intention. What do you want? Why are you there? What positive thing can you move forward on so that the grievance is in the rear view mirror and not out your front windshield?

It changed my behavior 180 degrees, changed me inside. And it transformed the forgiveness project into something really useful. Positive intention. What do you want? Why are you there? What positive thing can you move forward on so that the grievance is in the rear view mirror and not out your front windshield?

That was one of the most poignant experiences of my life. When my wife died, which is now about 13 years ago, I continued to visit her parents and I showed up at their home. And I knocked at the door and she comes out. I mean, we had made a peace together, but we hadn't like healed. And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia.

That was one of the most poignant experiences of my life. When my wife died, which is now about 13 years ago, I continued to visit her parents and I showed up at their home. And I knocked at the door and she comes out. I mean, we had made a peace together, but we hadn't like healed. And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia.

And she comes out and she looks at me and says, I don't think I was that nice to you sometimes, was I? And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia. And I said, no, at times you really weren't. And she said, I'm sorry. And I said, of course, fully accepted. The piece that completely ends this is I went back home, thought about that.

And she comes out and she looks at me and says, I don't think I was that nice to you sometimes, was I? And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia. And I said, no, at times you really weren't. And she said, I'm sorry. And I said, of course, fully accepted. The piece that completely ends this is I went back home, thought about that.

And here I am a big shot forgiveness teacher and an older woman makes the first step. That doesn't look good. And the next time I went and visited them, I knocked on her door. And I said, remember when you told me that you were sorry for treating me a certain way? I said, well, I'm here to apologize to you.

And here I am a big shot forgiveness teacher and an older woman makes the first step. That doesn't look good. And the next time I went and visited them, I knocked on her door. And I said, remember when you told me that you were sorry for treating me a certain way? I said, well, I'm here to apologize to you.

I'm sorry for all the ways that I may not have been a good son-in-law and just made your life harder. I'm deeply sorry for that. And I think we both hurt your daughter. So please accept my apology. She smiled a little. She was, you know, not fully there. Forgiveness, wrapped it up in a bow, we're both clean, and it's as if it never happened.

I'm sorry for all the ways that I may not have been a good son-in-law and just made your life harder. I'm deeply sorry for that. And I think we both hurt your daughter. So please accept my apology. She smiled a little. She was, you know, not fully there. Forgiveness, wrapped it up in a bow, we're both clean, and it's as if it never happened.

Oh, there's a sadness or a poignancy sometimes. When you see people who are hurt like that, her conversation is about my ex and the lost marriage and what a bad person he was. But it's shrouded in failure. It's this didn't work. I couldn't make it happen. I did my best. There were obstacles too big for me. And that has implications for her entire life.

Oh, there's a sadness or a poignancy sometimes. When you see people who are hurt like that, her conversation is about my ex and the lost marriage and what a bad person he was. But it's shrouded in failure. It's this didn't work. I couldn't make it happen. I did my best. There were obstacles too big for me. And that has implications for her entire life.

It was a piece of research where they experimented with giving people scenarios and asking them to assume the role of different people in scenarios. So one of the scenarios that I remember was a bicycle accident. where a car was driving and it hit a bicycle. It was not a terrible accident. Nobody was killed. But they asked people to assume the role of car driver.

It was a piece of research where they experimented with giving people scenarios and asking them to assume the role of different people in scenarios. So one of the scenarios that I remember was a bicycle accident. where a car was driving and it hit a bicycle. It was not a terrible accident. Nobody was killed. But they asked people to assume the role of car driver.

So in their stories, the bike driver is weaving all over the place and they're honking their horn and slowing down and skillfully trying to get around them. When they're in the role of bicyclists, it's this lunatic speeding driver came up behind me without any warning and scared the crap out of me.

So in their stories, the bike driver is weaving all over the place and they're honking their horn and slowing down and skillfully trying to get around them. When they're in the role of bicyclists, it's this lunatic speeding driver came up behind me without any warning and scared the crap out of me.

I know from the show you do that you know about the negativity bias, the profound effect of our brain of finding things wrong and looking for problems. And I know because of the work you do that you know about the confirmation bias. Our meaning-making apparati are so biased, but they are biased mostly in the direction of threat. Since threat, that negativity bias, is there to protect us,

I know from the show you do that you know about the negativity bias, the profound effect of our brain of finding things wrong and looking for problems. And I know because of the work you do that you know about the confirmation bias. Our meaning-making apparati are so biased, but they are biased mostly in the direction of threat. Since threat, that negativity bias, is there to protect us,

So many of the responses that we consider innate are actually off kilter because of our need and desperate biological necessity to deal with danger and threat. So in an accident, you're going to distort this to keep your ego intact to deal with the threat.

So many of the responses that we consider innate are actually off kilter because of our need and desperate biological necessity to deal with danger and threat. So in an accident, you're going to distort this to keep your ego intact to deal with the threat.

Our memories are state-dependent. So that when you're unhappy, that gives greater access in your brain to other times when you were unhappy. When you're angry, you have greater access to stories and times when you are angry. That is to allow us to draw upon the past as to how to solve the issue that we're dealing with now.

Our memories are state-dependent. So that when you're unhappy, that gives greater access in your brain to other times when you were unhappy. When you're angry, you have greater access to stories and times when you are angry. That is to allow us to draw upon the past as to how to solve the issue that we're dealing with now.

So it would do no good if you're angry now and your memory is access to lying on the beach in Hawaii. You're not gonna get much information.

So it would do no good if you're angry now and your memory is access to lying on the beach in Hawaii. You're not gonna get much information.

So when we have a habit of creating grievance stories around life, not only are we reacting to the current experience, but we get access to a pattern of creating grievance stories that makes the current story seem more real and the response to it seem more usual.

So when we have a habit of creating grievance stories around life, not only are we reacting to the current experience, but we get access to a pattern of creating grievance stories that makes the current story seem more real and the response to it seem more usual.

I mean, Alice, like everybody, tries usually what the fight-or-flight brain gives it. So if you don't like your in-laws, you go, well... I'm not going to talk to them, or I am going to tell them how I feel, or I'm going to stew, or I'm going to tell my husband to stop.

I mean, Alice, like everybody, tries usually what the fight-or-flight brain gives it. So if you don't like your in-laws, you go, well... I'm not going to talk to them, or I am going to tell them how I feel, or I'm going to stew, or I'm going to tell my husband to stop.

Or sometimes you say, well, none of that worked, so I won't talk to them, or I'll make the conversation short, or when they visit, I won't be here. And the really handy thing is, Instead of continuing strategies that don't help you, take 15 minutes and write them down. So we asked Alice, what do you do when your in-laws are not what you want them to be? She wrote down six things.

Or sometimes you say, well, none of that worked, so I won't talk to them, or I'll make the conversation short, or when they visit, I won't be here. And the really handy thing is, Instead of continuing strategies that don't help you, take 15 minutes and write them down. So we asked Alice, what do you do when your in-laws are not what you want them to be? She wrote down six things.

We said, did they work? She said, no. We said, don't do them again. And so we saved Alice a lot of grief Because if like being snarky to your in-laws is not helpful, at least don't be snarky. Say to yourself, I know what doesn't work. Let me see if I can experiment to find out what does work.

We said, did they work? She said, no. We said, don't do them again. And so we saved Alice a lot of grief Because if like being snarky to your in-laws is not helpful, at least don't be snarky. Say to yourself, I know what doesn't work. Let me see if I can experiment to find out what does work.

But that's the direct result of anger on the brain. Anger reduces blood flow to the prefrontal cortex, your thinking capacity and your creativity are dimmed. If you can soothe that anger in the moment, then you get your blood flow and your brain back and you get a chance to think of some different strategies. And that is the simplest description of how forgiveness is helpful.

But that's the direct result of anger on the brain. Anger reduces blood flow to the prefrontal cortex, your thinking capacity and your creativity are dimmed. If you can soothe that anger in the moment, then you get your blood flow and your brain back and you get a chance to think of some different strategies. And that is the simplest description of how forgiveness is helpful.

Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. Slow and deep. Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. And when your belly inhales, allow it to expand. And now bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you love. Just bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you really, really, really love. And try to feel that love in your body.

Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. Slow and deep. Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. And when your belly inhales, allow it to expand. And now bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you love. Just bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you really, really, really love. And try to feel that love in your body.

That is true for her. It's like, let me tell you. Now let me tell you. Now let me tell you again. Now let me call up grandma and tell her. The real suffering is when that failure and that loss become part of their identities. And so for somebody like Debbie, when we had encountered her, it was, hi, I'm Debbie, a woman with a lousy ex-husband and a failed marriage.

That is true for her. It's like, let me tell you. Now let me tell you. Now let me tell you again. Now let me call up grandma and tell her. The real suffering is when that failure and that loss become part of their identities. And so for somebody like Debbie, when we had encountered her, it was, hi, I'm Debbie, a woman with a lousy ex-husband and a failed marriage.

Try to almost feel it in your heart. And then you can open your eyes. What we taught Alice and all the women from Northern Ireland is When you get a picture or a thought about your mother-in-law or the murder, practice this. Don't allow your nervous system to be hijacked by stress. Practice this immediately.

Try to almost feel it in your heart. And then you can open your eyes. What we taught Alice and all the women from Northern Ireland is When you get a picture or a thought about your mother-in-law or the murder, practice this. Don't allow your nervous system to be hijacked by stress. Practice this immediately.

We told the women in Northern Ireland, you may have to practice this 50 times before it has an impact, but then you're starting to counter condition your stress response. With Alice, it wasn't quite that tough. So maybe after eight practices, we'd say, okay, you got your mind back. Now what can you do?

We told the women in Northern Ireland, you may have to practice this 50 times before it has an impact, but then you're starting to counter condition your stress response. With Alice, it wasn't quite that tough. So maybe after eight practices, we'd say, okay, you got your mind back. Now what can you do?

What might be a strategy to use with either your husband or your in-laws that doesn't bring back stress for you? And that becomes the inner guidepost. So she said, well, I guess I could just take a deep breath when they upset me. And I'd say, beautiful, try that. Or instead of giving your husband grief, ask for his help.

What might be a strategy to use with either your husband or your in-laws that doesn't bring back stress for you? And that becomes the inner guidepost. So she said, well, I guess I could just take a deep breath when they upset me. And I'd say, beautiful, try that. Or instead of giving your husband grief, ask for his help.

You can't come up with any of those solutions as long as fight or flight is active. So PERT is just a simple practice to shut that down.

You can't come up with any of those solutions as long as fight or flight is active. So PERT is just a simple practice to shut that down.

It's a study that reviewed all the research and suggested pathways for for how forgiveness could reduce the rumination and anger that are so constant companions to fibromyalgia. And they now know that the mental component of anger and rumination blends in with the pain pathways of the physical parts and amplifies it. So when you reduce your anger and rumination, you reduce the experience of pain.

It's a study that reviewed all the research and suggested pathways for for how forgiveness could reduce the rumination and anger that are so constant companions to fibromyalgia. And they now know that the mental component of anger and rumination blends in with the pain pathways of the physical parts and amplifies it. So when you reduce your anger and rumination, you reduce the experience of pain.

When anger becomes chronic, that appears to amplify those pain pathways. When anger is soothed, that piece of it can go away from the pain pathway.

When anger becomes chronic, that appears to amplify those pain pathways. When anger is soothed, that piece of it can go away from the pain pathway.

Well, we taught people about positive emotional intelligence centered on forgiveness. We took about 100 people in different work sites and we led them through this process of a little bit of coaching and a workshop and stuff like that. And then we evaluated at the end of like six months and it led people to be less stressed,

Well, we taught people about positive emotional intelligence centered on forgiveness. We took about 100 people in different work sites and we led them through this process of a little bit of coaching and a workshop and stuff like that. And then we evaluated at the end of like six months and it led people to be less stressed,

less angry, fewer symptoms of stress, but it also helped be more productive at work. That was the piece. Now, this is an uncontrolled study. We really didn't have a great control group, and it's one group, but it's the kind of study that suggests there might be more here than we acknowledge.

less angry, fewer symptoms of stress, but it also helped be more productive at work. That was the piece. Now, this is an uncontrolled study. We really didn't have a great control group, and it's one group, but it's the kind of study that suggests there might be more here than we acknowledge.

I wrote a blame letter about that. Here's all the things you did to ruin my life, so to speak. didn't give me what I want, but he wrote me back something that in retrospect wasn't as bad as I received it as, but because I had practiced arousal so much, I'm reading his letter and my blood pressure is like 200 over 120 and my mind's going ballistic and I have all these thoughts of anger and revenge.

I wrote a blame letter about that. Here's all the things you did to ruin my life, so to speak. didn't give me what I want, but he wrote me back something that in retrospect wasn't as bad as I received it as, but because I had practiced arousal so much, I'm reading his letter and my blood pressure is like 200 over 120 and my mind's going ballistic and I have all these thoughts of anger and revenge.

And this was the third learning point for me. I said to myself, nobody will ever get this control over my nervous system again long-term. So I took a deep breath and I stepped away. I pushed the letter away. I took a deep breath and I pushed myself away and I said, calm down, calm down. Then I started reading a bit and came up with PERT

And this was the third learning point for me. I said to myself, nobody will ever get this control over my nervous system again long-term. So I took a deep breath and I stepped away. I pushed the letter away. I took a deep breath and I pushed myself away and I said, calm down, calm down. Then I started reading a bit and came up with PERT

So that had meant that it was now integrated into her self-concept.

So that had meant that it was now integrated into her self-concept.

But his letter triggered every response that I had practiced for the last six months or a year. He fit right in with a stream going full. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to respond the way I want. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to be my friend as long as I want him to be my friend. I have an unenforceable rule. He can't take time off from the relationship.

But his letter triggered every response that I had practiced for the last six months or a year. He fit right in with a stream going full. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to respond the way I want. I had an unenforceable rule. He has to be my friend as long as I want him to be my friend. I have an unenforceable rule. He can't take time off from the relationship.

I then started to untangle those unenforceable rules.

I then started to untangle those unenforceable rules.

Well, after that blame letter, we didn't have contact. But I worked on myself. This is how I developed the forgiveness project. I started trying out my new story with my wife. I created a story that looked forward, not backward. And I got hope again.

Well, after that blame letter, we didn't have contact. But I worked on myself. This is how I developed the forgiveness project. I started trying out my new story with my wife. I created a story that looked forward, not backward. And I got hope again.

And then I don't remember who contacted who, but we met for dinner and I showed up in front of him and I sat down and I realized that I had forgiven him. But I also realized that all the work I had done for myself, I recognized that I was half the problem. That had I known how to handle this, it never would have escalated the way it did. So inside of myself, I said, I forgive you.

And then I don't remember who contacted who, but we met for dinner and I showed up in front of him and I sat down and I realized that I had forgiven him. But I also realized that all the work I had done for myself, I recognized that I was half the problem. That had I known how to handle this, it never would have escalated the way it did. So inside of myself, I said, I forgive you.

I didn't say anything to him. Within about a half an hour, we were the best of friends again. And nothing, there's not even been a blip in decades.

I didn't say anything to him. Within about a half an hour, we were the best of friends again. And nothing, there's not even been a blip in decades.

Hey, this was a delight. Again, thank you for helping me publicize forgiveness.

Hey, this was a delight. Again, thank you for helping me publicize forgiveness.

So she was, my mom didn't love me. I never got the kind of affection that I would hope for. I felt rejected and unwanted and I grew up with this sense of not being good enough and, you know, not having enough value in this world. And no matter what I said to mom, I couldn't get through to her. You know, like, mom, notice me. Mom, I'm around. Notice I matter. Mom was impenetrable.

So she was, my mom didn't love me. I never got the kind of affection that I would hope for. I felt rejected and unwanted and I grew up with this sense of not being good enough and, you know, not having enough value in this world. And no matter what I said to mom, I couldn't get through to her. You know, like, mom, notice me. Mom, I'm around. Notice I matter. Mom was impenetrable.

And so Jill brought that sense of frustration and invisibleness to the way she talked about what it was that had occurred 20 years ago when her mother had died. You could just feel the angst.

And so Jill brought that sense of frustration and invisibleness to the way she talked about what it was that had occurred 20 years ago when her mother had died. You could just feel the angst.

Precisely. And what you articulated is one of the unanticipated consequences of keeping a grievance alive. And they don't realize how integrated that wound or problem has become in their self-identity. And that link, that integration makes it seem really hard to imagine, what would I be without this?

Precisely. And what you articulated is one of the unanticipated consequences of keeping a grievance alive. And they don't realize how integrated that wound or problem has become in their self-identity. And that link, that integration makes it seem really hard to imagine, what would I be without this?

Sam was my closest friend for probably a decade. Somebody I considered almost a brother. and a very, very dear friend of my wife and I. I assumed that Sam would always hold that place in my life. So what happened or what transpired was he met someone who was, for whatever reason, uncomfortable with the relationship that Sam had with me and my wife.

Sam was my closest friend for probably a decade. Somebody I considered almost a brother. and a very, very dear friend of my wife and I. I assumed that Sam would always hold that place in my life. So what happened or what transpired was he met someone who was, for whatever reason, uncomfortable with the relationship that Sam had with me and my wife.

Yeah. And he just disappeared. We're best friends and now poof. And I couldn't connect with him. And the word ghosted did not exist then. But I was ghosted. And inside of me, I fell apart. I became bitter as my trust was shattered and I developed a bit of like an agitated depression.

Yeah. And he just disappeared. We're best friends and now poof. And I couldn't connect with him. And the word ghosted did not exist then. But I was ghosted. And inside of me, I fell apart. I became bitter as my trust was shattered and I developed a bit of like an agitated depression.

When a mutual friend came to my house and said, oh, by the way, You know, he's getting married. I had absolutely no ability to integrate that information. It hit me like bricks in my face. And I just, I crumbled.

When a mutual friend came to my house and said, oh, by the way, You know, he's getting married. I had absolutely no ability to integrate that information. It hit me like bricks in my face. And I just, I crumbled.

My wife turned to me one day and said, Fred, I still love you. I just don't like you as much.

My wife turned to me one day and said, Fred, I still love you. I just don't like you as much.

So I was, to put it kindly, crabby.

So I was, to put it kindly, crabby.

So my wife told me to go to the supermarket. And I told her I wanted to go to supermarket A because it was closer. She said, go to supermarket B, Safeway. It has what I want. I walked out of the door muttering, poor me. I get to Safeway muttering all the time, you know, people don't understand me and really like bitter.

So my wife told me to go to the supermarket. And I told her I wanted to go to supermarket A because it was closer. She said, go to supermarket B, Safeway. It has what I want. I walked out of the door muttering, poor me. I get to Safeway muttering all the time, you know, people don't understand me and really like bitter.

I walked to the place with the item that my wife is going to send me to Safeway for, and it's not there. And my self-pity is, like, overwhelming. Like, I could have gone to Albertsons. You know, why am I here? And nobody loves me, and nobody understands me. And my self-pity went to a kind of overdrive. But there was a moment where it broke.

I walked to the place with the item that my wife is going to send me to Safeway for, and it's not there. And my self-pity is, like, overwhelming. Like, I could have gone to Albertsons. You know, why am I here? And nobody loves me, and nobody understands me. And my self-pity went to a kind of overdrive. But there was a moment where it broke.

Just one moment, I turned away from the shelf where the item was supposed to be, and I noticed for the first time I'm in Safeway, big supermarket. I literally said to myself, holy , Fred, look what you're missing. You're missing abundance. This store has everything. You're missing apples and oranges and diapers and that you have the money to pay for this.

Just one moment, I turned away from the shelf where the item was supposed to be, and I noticed for the first time I'm in Safeway, big supermarket. I literally said to myself, holy , Fred, look what you're missing. You're missing abundance. This store has everything. You're missing apples and oranges and diapers and that you have the money to pay for this.

So I had a voice almost in me that said, pay attention, Fred, pay attention. I walked out of that supermarket and I was, I was different.

So I had a voice almost in me that said, pay attention, Fred, pay attention. I walked out of that supermarket and I was, I was different.

Dana is one of the people that even after a decade or more, I still remember. Her issue was that she was a great worker. for a local Silicon Valley company who worked above and beyond what anybody could expect from a employee. She came in early. She also was ambitious. And so she had an expectation that that best effort would lead to a promotion. So after a number of years of

Dana is one of the people that even after a decade or more, I still remember. Her issue was that she was a great worker. for a local Silicon Valley company who worked above and beyond what anybody could expect from a employee. She came in early. She also was ambitious. And so she had an expectation that that best effort would lead to a promotion. So after a number of years of

getting promoted appropriately, there was a bigger job right ahead of her that she just knew she was the right person for the job and had earned it. And when she found out that she didn't get that job, she became furious. I mean, hell hath no fury. I mean, because she had checked all the boxes.

getting promoted appropriately, there was a bigger job right ahead of her that she just knew she was the right person for the job and had earned it. And when she found out that she didn't get that job, she became furious. I mean, hell hath no fury. I mean, because she had checked all the boxes.

Wasted effort and that she was an idiot for putting in all that effort. It was a multi-pronged attack towards both her employer and towards herself.

Wasted effort and that she was an idiot for putting in all that effort. It was a multi-pronged attack towards both her employer and towards herself.

Exactly. The not getting the promotion. Dana heard that, that it's about Dana. She took it personally. It's my company, my job. I did all this work. I made all this effort. She took the no, the rejection, as a personal affront.

Absolutely. So there's no denying that Dana's body and mind were affected by not getting the job. What there is room to negotiate is how much of that effect had to do with Dana's expectations, not just the not getting the job.

So Alan had a wife who cheated on him. Like, And she didn't like try to hide it. You know, it was like, we're married, but you don't satisfy me. So, you know, I have an affair. And she shut him down if he started to complain or articulate his needs. So Alan just had one of those like doozies of a story. It's all her fault. The blame is the second piece of a three-part sequence.

It starts with taking it too personally, which you covered. When we take things too personally, our mind and body react in a very harsh, physically disruptive and emotionally suffering way. And then we have to talk to ourselves about what happened. So all three of those end up as this quality of blame. You did it to me. I'm not responsible for how bad I feel.

And I'm going to talk to myself that solidifies this as a blaming story.

You're spot on with that because when people are devastated... It's appropriate to be disrupted, dysregulated, confused, angry, lost, scared, and short-term. It's really helpful to have somebody to blame besides you.

When something happens, we have a choice of how we talk about it. And so we can talk about it as a normal life event, a catastrophe, something to cope with, you know, something I'm here to learn from, or a sign that the world is an unfair, unsafe place. What we lose when we get too deep into a grievance story is one, we have a choice. So that story of

hey, I got a really crappy deal with this wife and she messed up my life for six months. That's a healthy story for a month or so. You know, it's like that's how your brain rebalances and reorganizes itself from the disruption. And it can't go directly to, oh, let's think about this. I didn't make a good choice in marriage. She gave me lots of clues.

I didn't do X. You can't reorganize coherently right away. So she's a terrible human being is a wonderful way to reorganize. The grievance story is a practice for how it is we're going to explain to ourselves what happened and what's an appropriate response for us to deal with it. The practice of it is very useful short term and destructive long term.

When Dana wanted a promotion. She turned what she wanted into an expectation. I want to be promoted. She turned it into, I have to be promoted. When somebody gets married, they have a hope, you know, I want my partner to be faithful. but they change it into they have to be faithful. That is a rule for somebody else's behavior that you actually don't have power to enforce.

If you wake up in the morning and you say, hey, I got a big day today, it has to be sunny and it's pouring, most normal people recognize they don't control the weather. But when an adult person does something that you don't want, we bypass that, well, a normal adult person doesn't have to do what I want.

But when we create unenforceable rules, we start thinking an adult separate from me has to do what I want. They have to give me a promotion. They have to stay my friend. They have to be faithful. Or also, they have to talk to me. Those unenforceable rules are rigid rules. like substrates in our thinking that when they're broken, cause us to have all sorts of exaggerated distress.

You could say that. Let's just say it was a relationship challenge. But yes, there was one situation where she demanded that I do something in her home, and it was absolutely trivial. It was something along the lines of, don't put this back here. You have to put it back here. And she was yelling at me because I had put it back in the wrong place.

So she had an unenforceable, sons-in-law can't put things back where I don't want them put back. And then I had an unenforceable rule. Moms-in-law can't talk to me like this. I heard myself saying it. In my mind, you can't talk to me like this. And I ran out the front door. I literally ran out the front door, ran away from my wife and her family, literally took a run

because my unenforceable role was shouting at me, she can't do this. How dare she do this? Who is she to do this? I was gone for like an hour. My wife thought I was crazy enough to have gone back to California. She wondered, and I'm not blaming one shred of this on my mother-in-law,

I'm saying my rule, she broke my rule so strongly that I could only react that way because of the rule, not the reality of what she did.

So... Either during that run or later, I went to a pay phone. I didn't want to do it in the house. And I called up really close friends and I started to complain about my mother-in-law. And I got about 10 seconds in and the friend said, Fred, every time you go there, you call me to complain. And I looked at myself and I looked at him and said, but this one's serious.

And he said, I'm sure it's serious, but every single time you go there, you call us to complain about her and you want us to agree with you. So complain and we'll agree with you. But understand you do this every time. A light bulb went off. Wow. This woman owns me. She owns my nervous system. She owns my mind. She owns my feet. They take me to the phone. She owns me.

I mean, there's lots of information about how hostile thoughts, resentment, and blame are all negatives for long-term physical well-being. One of the studies that I liked when I was doing a lot of this was there was a linear relationship between blame and all cause like physical well-being. There is a good degree of evidence that hostile people have greater heart disease.

Yeah. And there was a recent study that linked what you're calling perseveration and anger. Both were linked to sleep quality.

Well, I mean the clearest and simplest link is with the stress response. So when you're angry or when you're pissed off or when you're blaming, you have a internalized sense of threat. Someone out there has hurt you or disappointed you or left you and you're not okay. So that sense of not okay,

you know, leads the brain and it signals to the adrenals and all sorts of changes to prepare you to, you know, run away. And run away doesn't have to be physically run away. It could be, I'll never talk to them again. That's a form of flight or fight them, be hostile. But the more you're angry and the more you're blaming yourself,

the more you arouse that system, the more you trigger an adrenalized response, the more you train your body to accommodate cortisol, the more your brain gets used to that pathway of reaction, it develops practice effects. It becomes easier to do because the templates become laid down more succinctly.

The immediacy of arousal of anything that's a threat to us is the reason why long-term grievances are so dangerous.

There's a distinction made between constructive and destructive anger. So when our arousal and our physiology and our threats say we need to protect ourselves, anger can be a really good response. So if somebody is hurting your kid, get angry. It's really helpful. If you see an injustice, get angry. Notice it and recognize you want this to change.

The destructive anger is when anger does not lead to useful action. When it just becomes perseverative, and in a grievance, it actually becomes a substitute for action. In a chronic anger situation, there's a little bit of dopamine that you get, that pleasure chemical, ah, I'm doing something about it, when actually you're doing nothing constructive about it.

The dopamine is a response to an anticipated value, But in anger, you never get that anticipated value unless you actually do something and change.

Hey, thank you so much.

No. I mean, issues, that's a nice way of putting it. Her husband was a serial adulterer. She had found him cheating numerous times. He said, I'm sorry. She said, OK, I'll take you back. He did it again.

So one time we brought them to the window of the fifth floor of the building on Stanford's campus. We opened the blinds and said, literally let the sun in that this murder is a horror, but it's in your past. And you want to make sure that this murder doesn't serve as like a full solar eclipse. And it doesn't mean that this didn't happen, but you can open back up to goodness.

And we gave them some practice in changing the story that they tell, the grievance story, not just to talk about how terrible it was, but what are some possibilities for moving forward.

I never tell people to forgive and forget. I tell them to forgive and remember differently. That is entirely different. I explain to them that forgiveness is not condoning. It's saving your life. I remind them that forgiveness has nothing to do with seeking justice. Forgiveness is inner healing and making peace with the life you had, not endlessly arguing with what you didn't get.

The other thing is the whole orientation is a profound empathy for how much someone has suffered and a plea for them to not continue parts of this suffering that are under your control by fighting hard against what actually happened. So there's an empathic plea. They stole so much from you. Don't let them steal more.

It was mixed. They themselves on the whole reported improvement in mood and a dimming of the symptoms of stress. When they went back to Northern Ireland, it became much more dicey because their communities didn't want to hear about forgiveness. They themselves didn't give me grief, but their communities were not interested in going to fancy California and learning to do this.

So that was one obstacle that we learned about. The most satisfying moment of this in a very difficult experience was the second time we brought these women back, plus family members, not all of them, And one of the women's daughters, a middle-aged woman, came to us and said, thank you for giving us our mother back. She was just grief-stricken. And, you know, we couldn't get through to her.

And you reminded her, you can be grief-stricken and still, in the present, try to love someone and hold what's still good in your life.

It can be for the other person. in an important intimate relationship. So if your partner cheats, you can forgive both to free you and them. But it's an unenforceable rule thinking that if I forgive them, like they're gonna change or they forgive me, we don't have control over the other. Part of the problem

Something snapped in her. She said, no more. You'll never treat me like this again. She threw him out. She filed for divorce. But when we met her, this guy owned her brain. And her conversation was just so dominated by him, him, him, him, him.

of unforgiveness is our lack of control of what happened makes us feel so vulnerable and threatened that if we don't come up with a strategy that puts some of the control back in our hands, we can feel lost and scared for a long time. The simplest example is an intimate partnership.

If your partner is a schnook and cheats on you and you don't let that go, then you sometimes bring that to the next relationship. You're going to cheat on me. I can't trust you. If you forgive it, it's not necessarily to help the past partner, but you open back up to a kind of trust so the next partner doesn't have to deal with your woundedness.

When I got off the phone with those friends, And I had already started the forgiveness project, but it wasn't finished. I realized I need a new story. I can't keep on telling everybody how terrible my mother-in-law is and how helpless I am. I came up with a new story, which is I asked myself, Fred, why are you here? Why are you visiting her?

And I said, because I want to support my partner, my wife, and I want my kids to know their grandma. So I said, why don't you act like it? You show up and you're a bear. You're not helping your wife. You're not helping your kids. If you can't do it, don't go. I wasn't there to get along with my mother-in-law. I was there to really support my wife.

It changed my behavior 180 degrees, changed me inside. And it transformed the forgiveness project into something really useful. Positive intention. What do you want? Why are you there? What positive thing can you move forward on so that the grievance is in the rear view mirror and not out your front windshield?

That was one of the most poignant experiences of my life. When my wife died, which is now about 13 years ago, I continued to visit her parents and I showed up at their home. And I knocked at the door and she comes out. I mean, we had made a peace together, but we hadn't like healed. And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia.

And she comes out and she looks at me and says, I don't think I was that nice to you sometimes, was I? And this was a woman who was suffering from some dementia. And I said, no, at times you really weren't. And she said, I'm sorry. And I said, of course, fully accepted. The piece that completely ends this is I went back home, thought about that.

And here I am a big shot forgiveness teacher and an older woman makes the first step. That doesn't look good. And the next time I went and visited them, I knocked on her door. And I said, remember when you told me that you were sorry for treating me a certain way? I said, well, I'm here to apologize to you.

I'm sorry for all the ways that I may not have been a good son-in-law and just made your life harder. I'm deeply sorry for that. And I think we both hurt your daughter. So please accept my apology. She smiled a little. She was, you know, not fully there. Forgiveness, wrapped it up in a bow, we're both clean, and it's as if it never happened.

Oh, there's a sadness or a poignancy sometimes. When you see people who are hurt like that, her conversation is about my ex and the lost marriage and what a bad person he was. But it's shrouded in failure. It's this didn't work. I couldn't make it happen. I did my best. There were obstacles too big for me. And that has implications for her entire life.

It was a piece of research where they experimented with giving people scenarios and asking them to assume the role of different people in scenarios. So one of the scenarios that I remember was a bicycle accident. where a car was driving and it hit a bicycle. It was not a terrible accident. Nobody was killed. But they asked people to assume the role of car driver.

So in their stories, the bike driver is weaving all over the place and they're honking their horn and slowing down and skillfully trying to get around them. When they're in the role of bicyclists, it's this lunatic speeding driver came up behind me without any warning and scared the crap out of me.

I know from the show you do that you know about the negativity bias, the profound effect of our brain of finding things wrong and looking for problems. And I know because of the work you do that you know about the confirmation bias. Our meaning-making apparati are so biased, but they are biased mostly in the direction of threat. Since threat, that negativity bias, is there to protect us,

So many of the responses that we consider innate are actually off kilter because of our need and desperate biological necessity to deal with danger and threat. So in an accident, you're going to distort this to keep your ego intact to deal with the threat.

Our memories are state-dependent. So that when you're unhappy, that gives greater access in your brain to other times when you were unhappy. When you're angry, you have greater access to stories and times when you are angry. That is to allow us to draw upon the past as to how to solve the issue that we're dealing with now.

So it would do no good if you're angry now and your memory is access to lying on the beach in Hawaii. You're not gonna get much information.

So when we have a habit of creating grievance stories around life, not only are we reacting to the current experience, but we get access to a pattern of creating grievance stories that makes the current story seem more real and the response to it seem more usual.

I mean, Alice, like everybody, tries usually what the fight-or-flight brain gives it. So if you don't like your in-laws, you go, well... I'm not going to talk to them, or I am going to tell them how I feel, or I'm going to stew, or I'm going to tell my husband to stop.

Or sometimes you say, well, none of that worked, so I won't talk to them, or I'll make the conversation short, or when they visit, I won't be here. And the really handy thing is, Instead of continuing strategies that don't help you, take 15 minutes and write them down. So we asked Alice, what do you do when your in-laws are not what you want them to be? She wrote down six things.

We said, did they work? She said, no. We said, don't do them again. And so we saved Alice a lot of grief Because if like being snarky to your in-laws is not helpful, at least don't be snarky. Say to yourself, I know what doesn't work. Let me see if I can experiment to find out what does work.

But that's the direct result of anger on the brain. Anger reduces blood flow to the prefrontal cortex, your thinking capacity and your creativity are dimmed. If you can soothe that anger in the moment, then you get your blood flow and your brain back and you get a chance to think of some different strategies. And that is the simplest description of how forgiveness is helpful.

Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. Slow and deep. Just take two slow, deep breaths into and out of your belly. And when your belly inhales, allow it to expand. And now bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you love. Just bring to your mind's eye a picture of someone you really, really, really love. And try to feel that love in your body.

That is true for her. It's like, let me tell you. Now let me tell you. Now let me tell you again. Now let me call up grandma and tell her. The real suffering is when that failure and that loss become part of their identities. And so for somebody like Debbie, when we had encountered her, it was, hi, I'm Debbie, a woman with a lousy ex-husband and a failed marriage.

Try to almost feel it in your heart. And then you can open your eyes. What we taught Alice and all the women from Northern Ireland is When you get a picture or a thought about your mother-in-law or the murder, practice this. Don't allow your nervous system to be hijacked by stress. Practice this immediately.

We told the women in Northern Ireland, you may have to practice this 50 times before it has an impact, but then you're starting to counter condition your stress response. With Alice, it wasn't quite that tough. So maybe after eight practices, we'd say, okay, you got your mind back. Now what can you do?

What might be a strategy to use with either your husband or your in-laws that doesn't bring back stress for you? And that becomes the inner guidepost. So she said, well, I guess I could just take a deep breath when they upset me. And I'd say, beautiful, try that. Or instead of giving your husband grief, ask for his help.