George Saunders

Every month we were bouncing checks and we were, you know, you'd have that.

I still had this kind of ingrained credit card flinch, you know, where you hand the credit card over and you just make yourself look very respectable.

And then when it clears, you try not to.

Oh, my God.

And then if it does, you feel like hugging the person, you know.

So it was that kind of a period.

But I guess the thing that was – so what I found out was to be in over your head is kind of clarifying.

Because there were no distractions.

It was just pure work, you know.

And you were still young.

I'm working towards something where things get— Yes, but also, you know, it was nice, Rachel, at that point, and this was the first time it ever happened to me, was I thought it will end, but it might not end well.

In other words, the boat with my writing dream on it might just sail out of sight, and I'm going to be fine.

And I think in the past, I just couldn't really imagine myself without some accomplishment to tie my ego to.

But in that case, with the kids and everything, I just thought, well, it's all right.

You're not the first person whose artistic dream didn't come true.

So man up.

And there was something very sweet about that.

And also, I think in a kind of paradoxical way, it was really good for my writing.

Because it was like abandoned hope, you know?

And when you abandon hope, it's kind of amazing.