George Saunders

It has to be objective.

And then you can get to where you need to be emotionally.

But I think that the feeling, maybe on the left especially, is I'm going to understand the Trump supporters and then I won't have this anxiety about disliking them.

But you can understand somebody deeply and dislike them or let's say oppose them.

And I think at the highest level, you can oppose somebody in this way we're talking about, which is

lacking facile judgment, but very firm.

It's the Cruella de Vil falsity.

They really cared about aesthetics.

Yeah, but I don't think I've ever made the argument that art enlarges everyone's soul and will therefore solve everything.

I think more like if you say—

You know, somebody went into a gym and said, this doesn't work.

There's still chubby people in here.

You know, it's just from my own experience.

Right.

But this is where the science comes in.

Because if you go in and you see charming and personable, you just add it to your data set.

Okay, note it.

He's doing these incoherent things.

He seems to be kind of largely incoherent in his views and in his plans.

He seems to have a terrific mean streak.