Gideon Lewis-Kraus

Thank you so much for having me, Tonya.

Well, their contracts with other companies and with the government stipulate that it can't be used for domestic surveillance or for autonomous weaponry.

Now, of course...

The issue with these systems is that once you put it into someone's hands, it's very hard to predict or control how they're going to use it.

So it seems to me from the reporting we've seen from The Wall Street Journal and elsewhere that Anthropic may have also been caught by surprise with this, that they didn't seem to have a formulated response and they seemed as though they perhaps hadn't even known that this had been used in the Maduro raid.

There has not been a lot of reporting about that relationship.

Anthropic has decided over the last couple years that they were going to pursue an enterprise business strategy, so they work with a lot of different companies.

And presumably they expect these companies to follow the terms of the agreement that they have.

But beyond that, it's sort of out of their hands how these companies are using these systems that they've developed.

Well, I think it was clear probably even about a year ago that there were going to be some tensions, that many of the members of the Trump administration, including Trump's AI czar, David Sachs, the venture capitalist, and Pete Hegseth more recently,

had expressed reservations about Anthropic's willingness to allow the government to use the models the way that the government saw fit.

And one of the ways that Dario Amadei, the CEO of Anthropic, has dealt with these competing pressures, both the pressure to develop these systems safely and responsibly and also to

compete in a very aggressive marketplace.

He talks about the race to the top, meaning that he hopes that if they can show that their systems are safer and more responsible than other systems, that there will be market discipline that will be enforced and will force their competitors to rise to the occasion.

Now, the problem is, I'm not sure he anticipated the fact that if the government and the Defense Department are among their customers, that our government has not shown a

great tendencies to participate in races to the top, rather to the contrary.

My first impression is that there's really not a lot of personality at the company.

I've spent a lot of time at places like Google over the years, and at least in certain earlier iterations, Google could kind of look like adult daycare with board games set out and climbing walls and candy and everything.

Special nap rooms.

Anthropic really has none of that stuff, all of which I think would seem like a distraction to them.