Gordon Carrera

And so that's how we know all this stuff about Revolutionary Command Council meetings, because he and others talk about what was really going on at the time.

And it is fascinating to just

be able to piece together what was going on in his head and how he wasn't quite the leader that people thought he was, which isn't to say he wasn't a murderous tyrant, but just more detached from reality.

And of course, while they were hunting for Saddam in 2003, the occupation of Iraq turns into a disaster very quickly.

I remember Iraqi exiles telling me it'll only take two weeks for the Americans to be seen as occupiers, and they were pretty much right.

There was no plan for the aftermath.

It's a shocking part of it.

So you get looting, you get the decision to disband the Iraqi army, leaves lots of angry men with guns.

I remember an Iraqi source telling me, well, there's lots of jihadists coming over the border from other Middle East countries to fight you Americans.

I remember asking a British intelligence source about this and going, oh, we haven't heard about that.

So you start to see all these kind of impacts very quickly as the whole situation unravels after the military victory.

Yeah.

No, I mean, it is a whole other story, which is the failure to plan for the aftermath.

But of course, the crucial thing is those weapons of mass destruction were never found.

I mean, we were promising you were promising at the start of this episode that we were going to reveal where they were.

I'm afraid

This is the point where we tell the audience they've been had.

A bit like intelligence analysts, you know, briefing their customers that we're sure you'll find the stuff.

I'm afraid we've let them down badly because we've not found them yet.

And no one has, however many years, 23 years on.