Host
Appearances
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I don't typically record, like, prefaces at the front of episodes, but as you can tell by the title, this is an episode about a one Grimes, someone who weaves a particularly and exhaustingly complicated web. even among the people we talk about on this show.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Yeah, it's it's so fascinating. I think about the people who are really famous on Tumblr who like Acacia Brinley, like, I don't I don't know if that's gonna trigger some memories from anyone listening. But like a lot of those people kind of you didn't hear about them after Tumblr came and went.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Hello, hello, and welcome back to A Bit Fruity. That was a Grimes tweet from last week. Thank you, thank you. Recently, the flyer for World Pride 2025, which is being held in Washington, D.C. this June, was released. And among the top billed performers is a one DJ, Claire Elise Boucher, known to most of us normals as Grimes.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Taylor, you said that you did the worst thing you could have done with Tumblr fame, but I would argue that it's not as bad as what Grimes has ultimately done. True. Low hanging fruit.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Well, that brings me actually into the next part of my outline, which I just labeled pseudo-intellectualism.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Grimes has for basically, I feel like as long as she's been famous, it's hard to even describe the pseudo intellectual aspect without talking about, again, her kind of like self mythology and her self branding, which is all about like, I'm a little nymph from the woods and I'm an alien from space and I'm not a real human being. And it's like, you are a rich girl from Vancouver, BC.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But sure, you can also be like an AI alien from space, I guess. But Grimes says from the beginning, she's always kind of talking about, like you said, Kathy's like larger than life concepts that are really difficult and unappealing, I think, for the normal person to try to spend too much time thinking about. She's always talking about like capital C civilization. You know what I mean?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And honestly, in ways that I don't understand and in ways that I more often than not just find very grating.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
it's i don't know it's like the worst person you can be drunk next to at a party and they just start talking your ear off about how like cryptocurrency can save the art world from i don't know it's just words on words and words and words i think what's so interesting too of just like that era of the internet that she came from was a very tech optimist era of the internet like you had
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Oh, it was talked about as a good thing.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
People, especially gays, who, you know, are the only people paying attention to the flyer release for World Pride 2025, were not happy. Here's some comments on Instagram. There's no reason for her to be here. She's consistently complacent. We have a gay pop renaissance. There's plenty of people who could replace her.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Listen, if you are all about trad living, if you watch Nara Smith wake up in the morning and spend six hours cooking a bowl of cereal from scratch and are like, I'm going to do that, this one might not be for you. But if like me, you find yourself on the opposite end of that spectrum where you love good food but rarely have time to prepare it yourself, Factor might be for you.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Factor is a meal delivery service with chef-made gourmet meals that make eating well easy. The best part is they are ready to heat and eat in two minutes. There are a bunch of different Factor menus that you can try. Personally, I go for Protein Plus. I know, I know, not so dainty, but I admittedly do love going to the gym and I don't love eating unseasoned grilled chicken seven days a week.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Sorry. Some of the Factor meals that I've personally loved are the mushroom chicken with wild rice, the cavatepe with meatballs, and the smoothies. The smoothies are great. If you'd like to try Factor, you can get started at factormeals.com slash fruity50off and use the code fruity50off to get 50% off your first box and free shipping. That's factormeals.com slash fruity50off.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
with the code FRUITY50 off. Thank you so much to Factor Meals for making my dinner last night and for sponsoring this episode. Now, let's get back to the show. Do you guys know about the 2009 riverboat incident?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Wow. Okay, so in 2009, Grimes, then Claire, and her college friend from McGill named William wanted to set sail on a boat that they made themselves. Here is a little snippet from a Pitchfork article that was written about this.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Another says, I fear she may have destroyed her career by procreating with that thing. Another says, Next up, is J.K. Rowling doing a speech? We have more gay pop acts than ever, and you chose someone who ignored a man's fascist ideologies for a doomed relationship and a child.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
The couple traveled 25 hours from Montreal to Minnesota, where they spent a month constructing a 20-foot house raft on a friend's property with the intention of sailing it down the Mississippi River to New Orleans. They named the boat the Velvet Glove Cast in Iron.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
When we talk about celebrities, we're usually also talking about bigger forces at play, which stories about these famous people come to represent and which affect us all.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
and renamed themselves Verushka and Zelda XOX, Boucher and Gratz painted murals with fantastical creatures on the side of the vessel, which they filled with live chickens, a sewing machine, and 20 pounds of potatoes. But soon after setting sail, the engine failed, and Boucher and Gratz spent three weeks traveling downstream.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
They spent three weeks traveling downstream, attempting to fix the boat and dealing with the police.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Right. I guess if she had stayed on the riverboat, it would have been fine.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Grimes is someone whose public image and art I have been personally, purposely avoiding for years, as both have gone down the tubes in a pretty dramatic and dark way. And as a little closeted gay boy who lived on Tumblr in 2012, I once loved Grimes. Those photo shoots of her with the, you know, DIY pink bangs are etched into the back of my brain like a tattoo I can't get rid of.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
i am more of a general deist slash feel like god is physics slash math slash sees itself through our eyes kind of vibe in terms of what i actually think in parentheses the universe is also probably dead and empty except yeah idk prob not ngl this is the most millennial stuff idk prob not ngl lol lmao This is also one from a few weeks ago. Actually, this is what I opened the episode with.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
The primary uniting force in this country is anime, and it's the only media through line that I can reliably observe regardless of political alignment. It is also, I think, underrated as a later stage illustration revolution. I'd argue the Akira art is the Cold War Mona Lisa.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Most of what I'm complaining about, like mostly I just find pseudo-intellectualism annoying. It's not a crime, certainly, but I also think it's hard to talk about her pseudo-intellectualism without highlighting, and this is kind of what I had going on next in my outline, is like that being the thing that also kind of brought her and Elon Musk together.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And so I'm really not enjoying any of this. But as someone who still, 13 years later, feeds off of pop culture and political news like a fish needs water, it's gotten increasingly difficult to avoid the train wreck my former mother has gotten herself wrapped up in. Every time she tweets, it's like adding a new car to the back of the pile. Grimes has obviously, well, not obviously.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And that was about the... Kat, I love how you remember the typo in that tweet. This is how online we are. In, I believe it was 2020, Elon Musk tweeted, pronouns suck. And this was kind of the first glimpse most of the world got into like, oh, wait, is this guy like, does this guy really have like a fixation on trans people? And that was when she responded, Elon, hate is not in your heart.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Give me a doll. Give me a call. Yeah.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Obviously, if you listen to this podcast a lot, not obviously, if you're out in the world touching grass, three children with Elon Musk. And though they've long since split up and have also had a grisly custody battle, it still seems like they play an important role in one another's lives.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And despite early signs that Grimes might have been putting up a fight against Elon Musk's political swerve to the far right, time has shown that she is willing to ignore and often co-sign her ex-partner's beliefs. I think talking about Grimes will in some ways follow the script of a conversation about a pop cultural fall from grace, you know, those types of conversations that everybody loves.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Grimes is someone who, in going from beloved Tumblr-era indie artist to abused accomplice of the world's richest man and shadow president, tells us stories about the internet era that shaped millennials, about pipelines to political radicalization, about domestic abuse. It's a rich and complicated text that I hope you find as interesting and perhaps challenging as I did while recording it.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But with the Elon of it all, and of course, the techno-mechanicus of it all, we add in some harder questions about what it means to be a victim or a victimizer and who bears responsibility for what Grimes has become. Was that good?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Yeah, and we've been talking about them having an abusive dynamic. And I want to talk a little bit about the specifics of some of the things that she alleges. So like you mentioned, they have these three kids, X, the next one is Exodark Siderail, the next one is Technomechanicus. I've riffed enough about the name thing.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I feel like online and on this podcast, I don't need to talk more about the names. I don't like the names. I don't like the situation they create for the children who have no agency in what they're called. I don't like names. But shortly after their third child, Technomechanicus is born, they split and enter into this custody battle.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And Kat, you were reading some of the legal documents as you love to do. Would you like to shed any light on what they revealed to you?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Scripted that shit out. To do that, I would like to welcome back to the podcast two of my best friends and two people who you're intimately familiar with at this point, if you listen to this podcast often, Kat Tenbarge and Taylor Lorenz.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
You sound really thrilled to be talking about Grimes, Kat.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Yeah, yeah. And just because I can already read the comments litigating how much sympathy or scrutiny towards Grimes is too much, I want to be clear and say that there is a reason A very valid reason that so many queer people reacted so negatively towards Grimes' inclusion in the World Pride lineup.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Grimes has, you know, co-signed and espoused some really shitty political views that we're going to get into in a bit. And at the same time, she's in this truly nightmarish situation inside this relationship with the father of her children. I don't think those things, by the way, are entirely separate either, which we're going to get into in a second.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But I do think people can and probably should have conflicting feelings about them. And I'm not asking anyone to reconcile those feelings necessarily, but I think it's worth noting that they can all exist at the same time.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I would like to take a quick break from the show to give a shout out to Rocket Money for sponsoring this podcast and making episodes like this possible. And for, you know, being a very useful app that might be especially useful to you as we head into the new year and you might be looking over your budgets. It's happened to all of us, right?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Kat and Taylor are both seasoned journalists who have each recently gone independent. And so if you would like to support them, I want to plug both of their newsletters right up front. Those newsletters in which they are doing some of the best work in reporting around politics and culture and the internet will be linked in the episode description.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Where you sign up for something, whether it be a streaming service, a news subscription, an OnlyFans, and then you eventually stop using it, but you forget to unsubscribe. So you keep getting charged for it, quietly, in the background, for no reason. But the subscriptions that you're paying for every month don't need to be a mystery hidden in the folds of credit card bills.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money will show you all of your subscriptions that you're paying for each month and help you cancel the ones you don't want anymore with just one click.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
In the app, you get a dashboard where you can see everything in one place, you can create budgets, and you get notified when your subscription prices increase. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved over $500 million in unwanted subscriptions. And it saves its members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
If you want to start budgeting and saving for the new year, you can do that. Head over to rocketmoney.com slash fruity. That's rocketmoney.com slash fruity. Now let's get back to the episode. while we're complicating this all, let's talk about Grimes' own political radicalization and maybe speculate on what about this arena of far-right personalities was interesting to her.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Because while, to be clear, obviously, I vehemently disagree with how she chooses to spend her time nowadays, I kind of always think, and it's a running theme on this show, that perhaps the most productive thing we can do is ask how and why.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I thought that we could just start the spiral on something kind of unrelated. But if you guys open the doc that I sent you with my notes for this episode, you'll see that I put the World Pride Music Festival flyer into it. I just wanted you guys to call out some of the names here and get your reaction. This is like deeply unrelated to Grimes. I just thought it was crazy.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I was going to say, it's not just Twitter follows.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Right, that's what I was going to mention. I mean, there's write-ups about her friendship with Curtis Yarvin, who is this avowed white supremacist. Yeah, he's a eugenicist. On January 19th, the night before the inauguration, she was DJing a sort of like MAGA hangout party. She's on Twitter all the time defending Elon.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Someone just a couple weeks ago said, girl, please, you were in love with a Nazi. And she just responded to that person, quote, hysteria will get you nowhere and told them to read Confucius and study history.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I just like imagining like Jennifer Lopez, Troye Sivan, Paris Hilton, RuPaul, and Trisha Paytas like in the green room backstage. What do they talk about?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Again, in my own head, I find myself coming back to this point of what is the right amount of sympathy? What is the right amount of scrutiny? How do I hold these things at the same time? Because on one hand, right, and this is what people bring up a lot, Grimes will somewhat regularly go out of her way, especially on Twitter, to defend Elon. Like just in January, there was this tweet.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Let me find it. She was sparring with some random person on Twitter. And continuing to claim that like Elon is still this like climate change warrior, despite obviously like joining the worst presidential administration the climate has literally ever known. So she continues to do this sort of like laundering of Elon's image for reasons that don't quite make sense.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
But then at the same time, like a month later, she tweeted, let me find this one. She tweeted directly at Elon Musk. Here it is from the 20th of February. This is urgent, Elon. I'm not giving any details, but he won't respond to texts, calls, or emails and has skipped every meeting. And our child will suffer lifelong impairment if he doesn't respond ASAP. So I need him to fucking respond.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I just want to locate like the one specific gay guy for whom all of this is perfect.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And if I have to apply public pressure, then I guess that's where we're at. Like, it goes without saying that that's pretty fucking horrifying.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I have news for you. You say it looks like a trashy rave poster. Have you been to a world pride? Have fun, everyone. Before we really get into today's episode, Kat and I want to do something that we have done on this podcast once before, and yet so many people didn't listen. Kat, would you like to do the vocal fry disclaimer?
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Well, and speaking of behavior that seems, from the outside, pretty irrational and, like, straight-up bizarre, did you guys see the tweet about the video games? She, like, she tweeted about Elon, like, being good at video games. Here's the tweet. From January 18th. Just for my personal pride, I would like to state that the father of my children was the first American druid... I'm sorry.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I don't know. I don't know video games. I'm sorry if I fuck up these words. Was the first American druid in Diablo to clear the Abattoir of Zir and ended that season as the best in the USA. He was also ranking in Polytopia and beat Felix himself at the game. I did observe these things with my own eyes. There are other witnesses who can verify this. That is all.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Aye, aye, aye. What a ride. What a ride. Grimes, the web that you weave. The web that you've been weaving since you sunk your alien claws in me 13 years and two months ago when I first heard Oblivion. I certainly could not have predicted then that we'd all end up here now. And you know, sometimes when I shut my eyes, I'm 15 again.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
In the closet, in my childhood bedroom, reblogging photos of you with some good old DIY bangs. Take me back. Taylor and Kat, thank you so, so much for being here today.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
And thank you. I don't know, maybe all of my episodes are this like rollercoastery, but this maybe it's because of my personal relationship to Grimes, to be clear, a parasocial one, but one that I've been fostering for over a decade. Maybe this just felt so heavy. And, you know, I think objectively it is. So thank you for making it this far. If you have, thanks for listening to this podcast.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Once again, if you would like to experience the podcast live, experience our conversations live, and are in a city where we're doing a show, please come through. I'm so excited. Take care of yourself, please, so we can all see each other through the other side of this madness when it's over. And it will be. I love you. And until next time, stay fruity.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
So before you leave that comment about how you love the content, but you can't listen to the vocal fry, delete that comment and go outside.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I've gotten comments when we've done episodes that have been like, it's the battle of the vocal fry. And in my head, I'm like twiddling my thumbs and I'm like, who will win? Yeah.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
before we get into the chronology of grimes life and who she was who she is who perhaps she's always been how are you guys feeling going into this because grimes has been i would say in the news but really just kind of like on our social media timelines a lot lately particularly as it
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
So without further ado, just kidding, I do have one more thing to say. This spring, A Bit Fruity is hitting the road. I am so excited to be doing seven live podcast shows this coming May and June. in Toronto, Chicago, Philly, New York City, Seattle, LA, and Portland.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I saw this tweet the other day from someone named George Severus who wrote, small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss celebs.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
A hundred percent. And Grimes is a rich text, if ever there was one. So Grimes was born in Vancouver, BC to wealthy parents. Her dad was a banker who then switched to biotech, which anyone out there who really knows what biotech is, feel free to leave a comment. I can't wait to read them. But she and her younger brother were raised Roman Catholic. Her parents divorced when she was 11.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Obviously, I'm like really speeding through the timeline of her early life. She ended up going to McGill University where she was a freshman in 2006. and I put in the outline a few photos that were unearthed from her time at McGill, if you guys want to look. I love these photos. She looks like Claro, or like a little, I don't know, she looks like a little Amish boy. It's very sweet.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
You can see it's always been there. Grimes says that she was expelled from McGill in 2010 for missing, at that point, a year of classes. But while she was still at McGill, she began releasing music on MySpace.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
She formally released her first two albums, both in 2010, which were generally well received in some indie circles, and really had her breakthrough with fame with her 2012 album called Visions, which is most likely when, if you know who Grimes is, probably the first time you've heard about her.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
Visions had the two songs Genesis and Oblivion on them, which were both critically acclaimed, put on all the year-end lists. Her sort of
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
mythology around the album Visions was that she wrote the songs over a nine day period where she says she did not eat or sleep and took a bunch of amphetamines and that's just like I've read enough Grimes interviews to have like accepted that story uncritically over time but as I was drafting this outline for this episode I googled like how long you can survive without sleep or food and like I don't think she went nine days you can go nine days without food you can't go nine days without sleep
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
It'll be just like the podcast but you know live with Q&As, audience feedback, you know we can all hang out and there will be some special guests who you might recognize from this podcast. I am truly so excited. Tickets for those shows are now officially on sale and the link for those will be in the episode description. I can't wait to see you. I'm so excited. Okay, Grimes, I'm ready for you.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I just bring that up to say I think Grimes has always done some, you know, self-mythology.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
I love that we're, like, zero and a half minutes in and, like, we already have the Elon lashings. Thanks, Kat. Mm-hmm. It would be an overstatement to say that this album Visions at all broke her into like the pantheon of mainstream pop. But if you were gay or had no friends and lived on Tumblr during the early 2010s, you knew Grimes. I was gay and had no friends and lived on Tumblr in 2012.
A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein
The Complex Tragedy of Grimes
So I knew Grimes. This is, I feel like where she enters all three of our lives. And so I don't know, I wanted to ask each of you like where you first encountered Grimes and what you remember about her from this era of her burgeoning career fame.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
And so that final state of glorification does not come until the return of Christ.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
This has been Ask Ligonier with me, Nathan W. Bingham. If you have a biblical question that you'd like to pose to one of our future guests, leave us a voicemail by calling 1-800-607-9386. That number again is 1-800-607-9386. And you can always record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
Rev. Ken Jones is joining us this week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, and he's the pastor of Glendale Missionary Baptist Church in Miami. Rev. Jones, when does glorification happen? At our death or at Christ's return?
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
And if you'd like to go back and browse the entire archive of answers, you can find them at ask.ligonier.org slash podcast.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
at Christ's return. That's an easy one. And I say easy, but it is layered because Paul's wonderful chain in Romans 8, 29 and 30. And at the end of it, he says those that he has justified, he has glorified. So what does glorification mean? It means to be incorruptible. It means a final state. And so that state and what happens in our death is that our soul is in the presence of God.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
I was wondering when glorification happens. Is it at our death or at Christ's return? Thank you.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
But God created us body and soul. But the body is separated. And Paul's language and logic in 1 Corinthians 15 is that the mortal must give way to immortality. And that which is corruptible must give way to that which is incorruptible. So right now, Paul could say in Romans 8.30 that we are, if we are justified, then we are glorified to go back to that chain again.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
What God has decreed is the guarantee that it will come about. So those who have genuine saving faith in him, who are justified in him or by him, ultimately, they will be glorified. And in the minds of God, we are glorified. But the reality of glorification, which means a mind and body that not only does not sin, but cannot, that's the final state.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
It's an investment of your time, of your finances. And maybe if your family's assisting you, it's an investment of their finances in you. It's also an investment, especially if you're at a Christian college, of donors who have enabled that college to be there and enable you to be there to study.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And it's an investment of time, of the administration, of the staff, and certainly of the faculty as they are educating you. And again, if it's a Christian college, also seeking to disciple you. So college is an investment. College also is intense investment. a lot is concentrated into a short amount of time in college.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
There's a lot of introductory courses, so intro to philosophy or intro to sociology or intro to theology. And so you have professors who are experts in those fields, and they've studied for decades in those fields, and they've got to compress all of that field into one semester. And it may feel like you're sitting in class drinking at a fire hose because you, in fact, So, college is just intense.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Everything about it is intense. And also, if you are a college student, here's one thing we can say for sure. It's your vocation. It's your calling. If you're there, God has put you there. God has called you to that, and it is your post. Calvin loved to talk about vocation, and Calvin would say, whether you are a pot washer or Or you are on sentry duty. This is your calling of God.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And so college is an investment. It is very intense. And it is your calling. You are to apply yourself to it. So that's college. Now let's think about what church is. Church is the God-ordained institution. So church is God-ordained, and what that means is it is absolutely essential and central to your Christian life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Dr. Nichols, we have a question from a new college student, and they're wanting to know how can they balance their workload in school with their desire to serve and minister in their local church?
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
So now we have two important things that can be very demanding, and now we have to balance them. And here's where you begin to learn what is very important to learn as you go through college, not just knowledge, but wisdom. And so how can we wisely balance pursuing our education as a calling and our ministry in the church? Well, let me just say a few things. First, you need to attend church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
You need to attend church joyfully, and you need to attend church attentively. So that means you're not out all hours of Saturday night and then finding yourself trying to hold your eyelids open during the Sunday morning service. So attend joyfully and attend attentively to the service. But as far as service goes,
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
I would say, and this is a principle for whatever stage of life you find yourself in, look for areas of service that are compatible with your training, with your gifting, with your age, and that are compatible with your time and attention to those other callings in your life. So I'll give you an example of this. I have a friend who's a CPA, and he loves to teach Sunday school.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
But their church is set up with a quarterly Sunday school system, and they have a wide pool, a deep bench of Sunday school teachers. So he's never able to teach in quarter one and quarter two because he is just so busy with his practice that the time he has, he needs to make sure he gives proper attention to his family, and there's not a whole lot of time left over.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
But when it gets to quarter three and quarter four, now he's able to teach Sunday school. And so in a sense, you could see your college life like that. It's a season of life. There's an intensity there. And you may have desires to do things, but those things you have desires to do may not be compatible with the time and attention that you have.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Well, first of all, let me say to you, congratulations on being a college student. I remember talking to Dr. Sproul about just how wonderful it is to teach in colleges. And he said the reason that he loved teaching in college, and actually the reason that he wanted to start a college was, and he was very frank, he said, I want their minds.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Or take, for instance, a family and we have a young mom with an infant or a father with a young infant. Well, that might be a time where they're not able to pursue a certain ministry in the church. And later in a season in life, they'd be able to. So this is something that's going to be with you your whole life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And I think you have to be, again, careful to just look for those areas of service beyond attending that are compatible with where you are in life and the time and attention you can give to it. We need to recognize that we are finite creatures and we all have the same amount of time in a week.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And we have to steward that time well so that the opportunities that God has given and put in front of us, we are optimizing and we are making the most of. And I'll just say one more thing. The service that you might want to be doing in church or can be doing while you're in college will likely not be the service you'll do as an older adult in church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
How can college students balance their education with their service and ministry in the church? Joining me this week for the Ask Ligonier podcast is Dr. Stephen Nichols. He's a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow and also the president of Reformation Bible College.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And that's okay because you need to have some more gifting, more developing, and just more life and wisdom and seeing the application of scriptures in your life for some of those teaching ministries and some of those other ministries that may come to you later in life. But those opportunities to serve are there.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And if you can serve where you're needed most and be faithful in those opportunities to serve, I fully believe that God honors that by bringing opportunities to us later in life as we serve faithfully. So God bless in your studies. God bless as you serve the church and as you balance that intensity and that calling of being a student with being a member of your church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. If you'd like to ask a biblical question for a future episode, you can always call us at 1-800-607-9386, or record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org. And if you like the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Because we learn from sociologists that your sort of mental development and sort of the development of you and your worldview really takes place in two moments in your life when you're in that four to six, two to six for some people, age span, and then college. So these are very important years in your life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
So let me just encourage you to make the most out of your college experience as you develop your worldview and affirm and go deeper on your convictions and set that trajectory for your life. And you're asking a very important question. How do you balance your education with ministry in the church? Well, first, let's just think a little bit about college. First of all, college is an investment.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so if you put those two words together, it means to lead from the beginning or to lead from the outset. And so as it is applied to Christ, Jesus is the author or the pioneer, and that's really probably the better translation, because as the pioneer, he is the one who has led from the beginning. He is the one who went from the beginning. He went from the outset.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
He was the one who went early on and led. And the second word in Hebrews 12.2, Jesus is both the author or pioneer and finisher or end. perfecter of our faith. The word there is very helpful because it is related to the same word that Jesus used when he said on the cross, it is finished.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so it speaks to Christ's perfect life, law-keeping life, fulfilling each and every aspect of the law of God, fulfilling the righteous demands of the law of God, so that when he died, his life that was perfect and sinless, even though he was tempted in every way as we are yet without sin, that Christ's life is the basis of our righteousness. He earned it for us.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so we are saved by his works, his righteousness, his perfect life, so that when he died, his death would be a sacrificial atonement, a substitutionary and a vicarious atonement that was finished for us. So when Hebrews speaks of Jesus being the author or founder or pioneer of our faith and the finisher of our faith, it's not only saying that he's gone before us, that he's gone from the outset.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
but also that He has finished it for us. He has completed it for us, that we are secure. That's why the author of Hebrews tells us to look to Him, and not just to look to Him, but to fix our eyes on Him, because He is our hope. He is the one who's gone before us. He has won the victory, and we have nothing else ultimately to fear.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
You have been listening to Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. R.C. Sproul founded this ministry, and for over five decades, we've been helping Christians know what they believe, why they believe it, how to live it, and how to share it. To learn more about Ligonier, download the free Ligonier app from your favorite app store or visit Ligonier.org.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
The language of Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith comes from Hebrews 12 and verse 2. And I think a lot of Christians really don't understand what those words mean because they've been translated variously in different Bible translations. Sometimes we hear the word author. Sometimes we hear the word pioneer. Sometimes it's even translated as founder.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
What does it mean that Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith? This week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, we're joined by Dr. Burke Parsons. He serves as Ligonier's chief editorial officer and is also the senior pastor at St. Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida. Dr. Parsons, what does it mean when Scripture speaks of Christ being the author and perfecter of our faith?
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
So that Jesus is the founder and perfecter, or the author and finisher, or the pioneer and finisher of our faith. And so I think a lot of Christians are confused about what do those words mean? And just as importantly, how do we understand those words and how do they apply to our lives?
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
Especially as we look to Jesus as the author and perfecter of our faith, which is what the author of Hebrews is telling us to do in our fight against sin, in all of our struggles. What does it mean that he is the author and perfecter of our faith? Well, let's look at those words individually. First of all, we have the word author or founder, or as it's translated elsewhere as pioneer.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And that word in the original language is comprised of two words. The first part of the word is the word ark. And of course, we have cognate to that word in English. We have archaeology and archetype. And essentially, that word means early or first or beginning or from the outset. The second word in that compound Greek word is the word ago, which means I lead.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Sproul was a fantastically clear communicator. And for all his intellectual ability, he gave his life to communicating Christian theology to ordinary Christians who had never been to seminary. So that, I think, is where I would begin.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Another book I might recommend, which is a much older book, but a very attractive book, is a book by a man called Thomas Watson, who was a minister in London in the 17th century. And I think he must have been a fantastic minister to have. He had a tremendous reputation.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
ability to express Christian theology in ways that are digestible and also with a great warmth and with some wonderful illustrations and even some great Latin phrases. Even if you don't know any Latin, you know, it's kind of attractive to read and to think about. And I think they're translated in the modern version. So everyone's a theologian and body of divinity.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Then the next stage, there is a book that I think is really a very beautiful exposition of Christian theology written by the Dutch theologian Herman Bavinck. It was translated into English, I think, in the 1950s and published then as Our Reasonable Faith. And it's been more recently republished in a much more attractive edition called
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
with the original title of Magnalia Dei, The Great Works of God. And Bavinck was a theologian of the first rank, a wonderful theologian. And this is a quite separate book that he wrote for Christians in general. It's, I think, probably more challenging than either Dr. Sproul or Thomas Watson, But it's a very engaging book. He just writes with a lovely warmth.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And I think that's a book that teaches you that high-level theological thinking can be very beautiful to read. Then beyond that, I think you come to the stage where you're starting reading systematic theology textbooks. And a book I used a lot when I was a teenager and into my 20s, now probably about 80 years old, I think, is a book called Systematic Theology written by Louis Berkhoff.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
It is not the most readable book in the world, but it's absolutely jam-packed with information. And I think that's very helpful. And then to crown it all is a four-volume systematic theology by the same man, Herman Bavinck, which has been translated into English only, I think, in the last 30 years. And it is really just an outstanding exposition of theology with great warmth.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Well, asking questions about books today is asking to select out of probably thousands and thousands of good books that are available to us. But when people ask particularly about theology books and systematic theology books,
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And then, if you're still game for more, there are modern systematic theologies by people that listeners to Ligonier broadcast are probably familiar with, perhaps especially Joel Beakey's multi-volume work on systematic theology, Michael Horton's work on systematic theology, Bob Letham's work on systematic theology. And these are larger and they're all written by native English speakers.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
They're written by people who are living in the modern world and therefore, in a way, are more up to date. So those books, I think, would keep people going on a summer vacation and into the long winter nights. And I think they're all very helpful indeed.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
This is Nathan W. Bingham, and you've been listening to Ask Ligonier. If you like the show, why not subscribe or write a review on your favorite podcast app? If you'd like more information or for the archive of episodes, simply visit ask.ligonier.org slash podcast.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
What are some good systematic theology books to help believers grow in their faith? This week we're joined by the vice chairman of Ligonier Ministries, Dr. Sinclair Ferguson. He's also a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow. Dr. Ferguson, what systematic theologies would you recommend to a Christian to help them grow in their faith?
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
I think we can start from what I would recommend to somebody who was beginning right through to what I might recommend to somebody who had already studied a lot of Christian doctrine and theology. So the book I recommend to people who are beginning is Dr. Sproul's book, Everyone's a Theologian. for a couple of reasons. One is because the title takes people by surprise.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And by the title, he's echoing Martin Luther actually in the title, but by the title, he is helping people to realize that it's not just some people who are to think theologically, but that we all think theologically. It's just that we either think well theologically or bad theologically. And it's written for ordinary Christians. It's superbly well written. R.C.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think it's not only important, but I think it's liberating for us to understand that God understands our chronic sickness, and He wants us to take care of ourselves. And that's not just an option, that's actually a command. That's part of what it means to love ourselves as we love our neighbors.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
We want to care for our neighbors, but it really is a command that we should also care for ourselves. And I'm struck by the fact that when Paul writes to Timothy, remember, he says to Timothy, who obviously himself suffered from some kind of chronic sickness. It seemed to be gastric in nature, but maybe affected other parts of his anatomy.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
He says to him, make sure you take care of yourself and take a little wine for your stomach's sake. And he actually says, stop drinking water. And I think that's an indication that there was some conflict in Timothy and that Paul is saying, Timothy, you will not be of use in the kingdom unless you take care of yourself. So it's really important to do that.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think it's also releasing to know that the Scriptures encourage us to do that. Because often as Christians, we have this inner drive to do more. And sometimes that drive can lead us astray. So I would say that's the first thing.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
I think the second thing I would say is that in the very nature of the case, a chronic sickness or chronic illness is not only physical, it also usually affects us emotionally and psychologically, and therefore can also affect us spiritually. it can make us prone to discouragement and even depression.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
If there is in your church a friend with a cheerful spirit, but who is also not irritatingly cheerful, who has a sympathetic spirit, then cultivate that friendship. And then I think most of all in this connection, keep your eyes fixed on Christ because he understands you and he is sympathetic.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Dr. Ferguson, we have a question this week from someone who suffers from a chronic illness, and they'd like to know how they can balance sacrificial love and service to others with taking care of their own body.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And then the third major thing I think I would say is we live in an evangelical subculture where our spiritual value is often measured by what we do, whereas in Scripture our spiritual value is measured by two things. One is how much God loves us because He's given His Son for us. And the second thing is, what matters to Him is not so much what we do, but who we are and what we become.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And you do not need to be doing as a Christian to minister to others. Just your being, the way you are as a Christian, even the way you handle chronic sickness as a Christian, leaves its mark on others. I think I saw that many, many years ago.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
A man I knew who had been at university for quite a number of years when I arrived at university, and because he had various illnesses, including a brain tumor that was operated on at least a couple of times, we ended up in the same year in theological studies and became very good friends. He was a very unusual person, really unusual person.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And eventually he was really debilitated in many ways by his illness. And he went to be with the Lord. And afterwards, he was doing a doctorate at the time, but he was quite a bit older than I was. And I was given his papers to see if I could make something of them. And I wrote a little memoir of him with some things that he had done.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
But as I looked at the papers, I was really puzzled because I couldn't, I was looking for something that told me this is what this man's life was for. You know, a kind of tangible fruit of his life. And then it dawned on me that that actually wasn't what God purposed him to be for. and that the really important thing about him was not what he accomplished, but what God made him.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Because you couldn't be with him without seeing how God had given him grace to be strong in the midst of his weakness and to keep looking to Christ in the midst of his affliction. And he was a great example to me of that principle. It doesn't matter what you do or what you can't do, but that God ministers to others through what you are.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Well, suffering from chronic illness is a suffering that other people don't always see. And I think that in itself can present certain challenges to people. You know, if you break a leg, people are sympathetic and you discover an amazing number of people seem to have broken a leg as well. And there's a community of sympathy.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
As someone who suffers from a chronic illness, how do I balance service to others with taking care of my own body? Joining us this week on the Ask Ligonier podcast is Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow and also our vice chairman here at Ligonier.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think that's a very helpful thing to remember when, you know, our powers are lessened, not just through chronic illness, but also when we get older. and we feel we're not doing as much as we used to be able to do. That it's who we are in the family of God that really matters.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. To browse our growing library of podcasts, including Renewing Your Mind, Ultimately with R.C. Sproul, Things Unseen with Sinclair B. Ferguson, and others, simply search for Ligonier Ministries in your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
But I think one of the things that happens with somebody who experiences chronic sickness is that with it they can feel quite isolated. And that sometimes produces a certain sense of conflict within them that they want to do more to serve Christ, but they don't feel able to do more. So I think I would say certain things.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
The first is to remember what the cabin staff say when they speak to you at the beginning of a flight, that in an emergency, there will be masks that will drop, you hope, from these compartments above you. And if you're carrying somebody who's a child or you're with somebody who is unwell, make sure you put your own mask on before you help somebody else.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
with respect, and we'll see later, Peter's going to use the word to talk to unbelievers and non-Christians of reverence, but with respect, and then also to back up our message, as it were, with the lifestyle and with the conduct. So what is true for these believing wives of unbelieving husbands is also true for believing sons and daughters of unbelieving parents.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Your question was framed so well that, yes, you need to love and you need to respect. God has ordained the family. It is a part of the natural law, the natural order of things that we talk about. And whether they're Christians or non-Christians, all children are to obey their parents and to honor their parents. It's part of the Ten Commandments, which is a codification of natural law.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so having family relationships that are loving, that are kind, that are respectful are required of all of us as Christians and non-Christians, but especially required of us as Christians. And that's not contingent on those other family members being Christians. The other place where we can get some insight is a little bit later in 1 Peter 3.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Now here, Peter is not talking at all about family relationships. He's just talking about Christians and non-Christians. And so Peter says at 1 Peter 3.15, "...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." Yet, he adds, do it with gentleness and respect.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Well, first let's look at the activity there. Peter says you need to be ready. If you get asked, why do you have this hope? Why are you a Christian? You need to be ready to give an answer. So you need to be prepared. So you ask, how do I witness to my parents? Well, anticipate some of the questions they might ask. You know them. You know what objections they might have.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
They might think that, well, all Christians are hypocrites. Well, be ready to respond to that. They may have doubts about the Bible. Can it really be authoritative? Can it be trustworthy? Anticipate that and be ready to give an answer for that. So we call this apologetics. In fact, we get that word from this verse.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
The words that are translated to make a defense is actually the Greek word apologia, and that's from which we get apologetics. But Peter's not only interested in the message, he is interested in the message, but he's also interested in how we convey the message, not just the content and not just being willing to give that answer, but how we give it and the manner that we give it.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Of course, if God has opened your eyes to the truth of the gospel, you want that for the people in your life. You want that for your loved ones. You want that for your siblings and your parents and your friends. So I can really appreciate where the question is coming from. Fortunately, we have help because Scripture helps us on this. In 1 Peter chapter 3, Peter writes.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so he says, yet do it with gentleness and respect. Now that word translated respect in the ESV, is the same Greek word back in 1 Peter 2, verse 17. And back in 1 Peter 2, verse 17, we read, "'Honor everyone, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor.'" Now that expression, fear God, is of course the word phobia, from which we get phobia in English.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
It's the same word over in 1 Peter 3.15. We could easily translate respect there as fear. So one way you can't witness to your parents is by being unloving, unkind, and argumentative. That's not following Peter's advice here, whether it's the specific advice to wives and their husbands earlier in the chapter or to all non-Christians in the middle of the chapter. So think very much about that.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And then lastly, I would say pray. Just pray. You know, there's all kinds of stories from church history of mothers praying for their wayward sons. Probably there's no better story than Monica and Augustine. And well, she might have done more than pray because she also followed Augustine wherever he went all around the Mediterranean world and kept tabs on him.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
I believe one time Augustine slipped out in the middle of the night, did not tell her where he was going. She found him anyway. So that might be extreme. But one of the things Monica never stopped doing was praying for Augustine. And decades later, God answered those prayers. So we hear lots of stories of of parents praying for their sons and daughters, prodigals, to come home.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
How can I properly love, honor, and witness to my non-Christian parents? This week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, we're joined by the president of Reformation Bible College, Dr. Stephen Nichols. He also serves as a teaching fellow at Ligonier Ministries. Dr. Nichols, how can a Christian love, honor, and witness to their unbelieving parents? Hmm. That's a great question.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so we also need to recognize that God wants the sons and daughters to pray for the unbelieving parents. And so that's very important to do in this process of loving and honoring and respecting and witnessing, is to pray. And I have no doubt that you do. But let me just encourage you to be steadfast and persevere in those prayers.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. If you'd like to ask a biblical question for a future episode, you can always call us at 1-800-607-9386, or record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org. And if you like the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Now, he's not talking about children to their parents and sons and daughters to their parents. He's talking about wives to their husbands. But I think it applies. And Peter says, likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands so that even if some do not obey the word. So what we're talking about here is wives who find themselves with husbands who are not believers.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And Peter uses that expression, who do not obey the word, to represent unbelievers. So wives married to unbelieving husbands, Peter says to them, Be subject to your own husbands, even if they don't obey the word, so they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives. He goes on to say, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. So this is where we need to begin.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
That expression has stuck to me and I will own it, but I don't see it as a hobby because I don't actually find it enjoyable at all. I don't like being pugnacious for its own sake. I have no personal animus against people in the administration. That's not the point.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
There's a pattern of conduct in my central administration that's just extremely troubling that when bad things come to light, the university doesn't candidly address them. It doesn't openly discuss what the problems are. You might hope, oh, the more scandals you expose, the more you'll sort of pry open this kernel of secrecy. Right now, it just seems to be the opposite.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
Like the worse the scandals get, the more our central administration hunkers down.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
I kind of thought that the issues that I raised would open a dialogue with the administration where the administration would have said, well, this is why we reported these figures. This is what we meant by these figures. Nothing like that has ever happened. They obviously were very concerned about their legal liability, and so it was just like this iron curtain of silence descending.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
So I reached out to the provost and I said, could we have a discussion about it?
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
We want to know whether we're buying good products, whether we're going to vacation in good places, and of course, whether we are sending our kids to good schools.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
Someone who was present at that meeting, you know, described it as an infomercial. And I think that just about sums it up. The provost spoke in general terms about how she was confident that the figures were accurate. That was the position of the universities, that the figures are broadly accurate.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
We still have no idea in practical terms who actually was responsible for gathering the data, who assembled the data, who filled out the survey form. Was it one person or many people? What offices of the university are they in?
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
I would have loved to engage with those people, talk to them, but that was the only time ever that I had any kind of public dialogue with anyone in the central administration.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
The fallout of the commotion has been that I think there's been a permanent change in how people think about university rankings in general. And there's a much broader sense of public skepticism about whether the rankings are meaningful or helpful. That's all extremely positive. I think people should take these rankings with a grain of salt. I mean, no, with a heaping teaspoon of salt.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
They mean almost nothing, and I'm glad people have woken up to that.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
There's just no way to measure the quality of what happens in the classroom without going into the classroom. Besides, everyone's opinion about what's a good education differs anyway. What makes a university good? That's so complicated. There's so many different cross-cutting factors and reasons.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
Anxious young people are just relieved of the need to make a decision for themselves. You just apply to five colleges, and then you choose the one that appears the highest in the ranking. There's a sense of comfort that comes from that. There's a sense of ease. But there's also just something mesmerizing about it. There is something fascinating about a horse race.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
People look to the rankings as validation of the prestige of their own school and therefore, by extension, as validation of their own individual self-worth. If I went to Duke University, say, and Duke University is ranked in the top 10, then I respond to this by thinking, oh, well, then I'm a top 10 kind of person.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
And if you look at message boards on Reddit or if you read articles in the press, you see this kind of rhetoric all the time. Columbia versus Cornell. Cornell was so happy when Columbia got knocked down the rankings and therefore they surpassed Columbia in the rankings. Oh, last week we were worse than you and suddenly we're better than you.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
And obviously a lot of people in society crave some kind of validation. They need it. They want to be told that they are prestigious or accomplished or important. And that's really what the rankings are selling.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
going back to the beginning of the 20th century, from time to time, people thought, gee, there ought to be a ranking of schools. So they would come up with something and they would do it for a year or two, and then they would abandon it. But none of them were anywhere near like the systematic ongoing annual rankings that started with the US News rankings.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
I've spent much of the last few years just telling people university rankings are of no value and you should pay no attention to them whatsoever. I often say that to journalists. And then their follow-up question is, well, in light of that, what do you make of Columbia's rise from number 13 to number 12? I think rankings are going to be with us for a long time to come.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
You might say, well, that was pretty unscientific and pretty subjective. But a lot of schools suddenly took these very seriously. My own college, Amherst College, ordered something like 25,000 copies of the US News ranking, which said that they were number one among liberal arts colleges, and sent them out to all the students who were thinking of applying to Amherst.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
But the interesting thing was that in those days, colleges were not being required to report as many statistics to the government as they are now. So it was quite a big imposition on the schools to fill out these questionnaires every year. But in spite of that, these colleges all did fill it out and submitted them to U.S. News. So that is another indication that they took them very seriously.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
First, they had to decide which of these variables to use in their formula. But then they had to come up with weights to assign to these different factors so that they could combine them all into a single metric.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
Higher educational institutions are enormously complex. When you think about it, they are providing a hugely complicated product, a life experience that's a whole range of educational experiences, but also social experiences, food and housing, entertainment. It seems to me way, way too complicated to reduce to a single ranking.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
These schools vary enormously in their character and in their mission, in their history. There are huge research universities. There are athletic factory universities. There are small colleges that specialize in the liberal arts. There are engineering schools.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
It's a little bit like saying we're going to have a single ranking for all appliances and we'll just throw in stoves and vacuum cleaners and refrigerators. It would make no sense. But in some ways, that's exactly what the college rankings are purporting to do.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
That was a big event because it expanded from the tens of thousands to the millions, the number of people that looked at their rankings. It also, of course, reached an international audience, which was very important because a lot of foreign students want to attend American universities.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
When I was the dean of the University of Pennsylvania Law School, I felt as though I was a captive to the rankings. Everybody in legal education was complying with U.S. News' rankings, paying slavish attention to them.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
US News was ranking law schools, and still is, by giving a fairly heavy weight to the average LSAT score of the incoming students. And we used to use that factor, of course, but we didn't give it as much weight. We tried to factor in less quantitative, more qualitative measures. And we found that because we were doing that, it affected our rankings.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
So I confessed, and I confessed in the book, that we ended up changing the relative weights we gave to the various factors in admission for that reason.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
I think that virtually everybody in higher education, if they're honest about it, would admit that they've changed their policies or their practices or their priorities to some extent in order to look better in the rankings.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
The fact that they were number two raised, if not alarm bells, at least it raised my eyebrows.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
That was actually the first teaching position that I ever had. I've never taught a course at any other university besides Columbia.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
Two meant that we were tied with Harvard and MIT, that we were surpassed only by Princeton in this ranking. And I knew that we at Columbia have certain objective disadvantages compared to those other schools. We have a smaller endowment. We have far less physical space, for example. So even though my admiration for Columbia is boundless, I think this is a wonderful institution.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
I've chosen to be here my entire career. I knew that we faced certain inherent disadvantages when it came to a linear ranking.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
This took me several days of hard work. I took the directory of classes, which is a website that lists every class in the university together with its enrollment, and I just downloaded the HTML code of all of those web pages, concatenated them all together, and I arrived at figures that were very, very different from what Columbia had reported.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
Well, I suppose we are a competitive society, and we are very much a consumerist society, and many of us are status seekers. So all of those things contribute to this preoccupation with rankings that you see almost everywhere in our society.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
$3 billion was, at the time at least, more than the total amount that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton put together reported that they spend on instruction. It's literally the single largest figure reported by any university.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
The money that Columbia Doctors spends on patient care, which is obviously a ton of money because it's a large operation involving hundreds of doctors, all of that was being inaccurately described as an instructional expense.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
I thought about trying to approach some magazine or something and publish an article in a magazine. I decided not to do that because if you look at what I wrote, it's a weird mixture of different genres. It's partly academic report, it's partly journalism, and it's partly a polemic.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
that I decided just to post my report on my webpage, which is not exactly a high-traffic location. Mostly only math faculty and students who ever looked at it. But I figured the claims I'm making were so provocative that eventually someone will take notice.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
They realized that me even saying that there might be a problem was something that was worthy of coverage, even if my claims hadn't been peer-reviewed or appeared in any other publication. And they wrote a story about it. And that very, very slowly started the ball rolling.
Campus Files
Dissension in the Ranks
It's one of these things that growth was maybe exponential. First it happened very slowly, and then it happened very suddenly.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Every week on The Moth Podcast, we share stories that are funny, strange, heartbreaking, and above all, true.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Gow says the board fired him because they were uncomfortable with him and his wife producing and appearing in pornographic videos.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
And when it was brought to the attention of university officials, he was denounced by top administrators and the Universities of Wisconsin Board of Regents, who called his behavior abhorrent.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
They began investigating him. He does not comply with the investigation. He tries to slow it down.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I mean, I would guess that they were trying to capitalize on some of the publicity to steer folks towards their OnlyFans. I happened to find videos of them on PornHub, and I was like, yep, this is the guy. I had to do some unfortunate due diligence there.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
process to fire a tenured faculty member is this quasi-judicial public hearing before a committee composed of several faculty members, five in this case.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
University officials argued that Joe Gao should be fired for a number of things, basically bringing reproach on the system with his behavior. But they threw a litany of charges at him, like misusing university equipment. Things like receiving vendor emails about sex toys, printing a vegan cookbook on university equipment, that he failed to cooperate with the investigation into his behavior.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
But the ultimate thing that they argued in trying to fire him was that he was guilty of quote, unethical and potentially illegal conduct. For example, they took things out of a couple of erotic books he had written with his wife under a pen name.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
The university seized on these statements as basically admissions of illegal and unethical behavior.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
And they said he's being fired for his private speech, that university professors have First Amendment rights, and they're allowed to have private lives, even if they do things like Joe Gao did. Which is basically what Chancellor Joe was arguing.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Joe Gao has argued that his activity is completely protected by the First Amendment, that he did not harm anyone, that his activities were between himself, his wife, and other consenting adults, that he made no money off of these activities. If he had, it could potentially be a conflict of interest, but he referred to it instead as a very expensive hobby.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Joe Gao has suggested that he may have been a sacrificial lamb of sorts, that there was pressure to get rid of him. And indeed there was. Several Republican lawmakers tweeted statements or released press releases calling for his immediate firing.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I can give you some examples from the hearing. There were faculty members, at least one, the communications department chair, who was called to testify against him. And she cast him as an ineffective teacher. Her testimony was pretty damning.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I do not want Dr. Gao to teach in our department based on my past experience and observations of having him in the classroom.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
But at the same time, he was chancellor of the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse for a very long time, 17 years. The average chancellorship is 5.9 years these days. So he had a pretty successful tenure.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
The public seems to view this with a lot of amusement. A local brewery released a beer in his honor called Hot for Chancellor with a rather creative label of him basically in the nude. I understand that he did stop in and pick up a four pack of that beer.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
The Universities of Wisconsin system is a step closer to removing former Chancellor Joe Gao as a tenured faculty member at the UW-La Crosse. That decision was made by five UWL faculty members after a two-day public hearing back in June.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
They wrote in their findings that he had placed himself in the public eye for personal gain, and that in doing so, they believe he is in opposition to the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse's interest.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
And it seemed to be really well received by students. It was not as well received by system officials.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
So I have found that sometimes things pile up in my freezer.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
We have a motion and a second to adopt the proposed decision in order as the board's final decision and order of dismissal in the matter of Dr. Joseph Gao of UW-La Crosse. This will be a roll call vote.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
And then the board comes back with a unanimous recommendation to fire Joe Gao.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
As of late September, he is no longer a University of Wisconsin employee. So now he is weighing his legal options.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I've gotten a whole lot of attention because I was in the chancellor job and it was a very high profile thing and fired. But Carmen's story is equally interesting. It just doesn't tend to get told for lack of a better metaphor. You know, it's like Simon and Garfunkel. I mean, you couldn't do it alone.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
University of Wisconsin's Chancellor Joe Gow under fire for hiring a porn star to give a speech.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
You can work out a whole lot of s*** in the hours of Target.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
The higher-ups are concerned about one thing, and that is avoiding scandal.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
It was the biggest academic scandal in the history of college sports and probably in the history of academia.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
A chancellor having a pornographic double life is an extremely rare case.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Follow and listen to The Moth on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. The Moth Podcast
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I can't think of any reason why not. I mean, the only thing that crossed my mind is I see that Joe is active in talking to reporters, and the last thing I want to do is get caught up as, you know, some kind of turncoat or something like that. But I don't know if that would really be a factor. You called me, and I can tell you a few things.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I met Joe Gow when I was already on the faculty in Communication Arts and Sciences. And he came here to earn a degree. I think it was his PhD that he was working on. And we got to know each other, but really more as acquaintances. We didn't know each other well. We didn't spend a lot of close time together, but he started a band.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
And I had a band, and there we were, you know, two people involved with this particular faculty, both trying to make music locally.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
So in 1982, Joe's band made a four-track EP here, and I'm holding in my hands and looking at a 33-and-a-third EP with four tracks, two on each side. They call me Joe Cool I haven't played it for a while. I only pulled it out because the subject came up. But I remember they were good. Kind of new wave punk. Heck, I can send you a copy. I've got a little handful.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
He wasn't just doing cover versions of other people's music. He was writing some interesting stuff, you know? It held up at the time.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I'm guessing that his ambition was not unlike mine to have some sort of a breakthrough and get radio play in a region in the U.S. and have it catch on and become a hit of some sort.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
guy who clearly had some talent and panache and, you know, was willing to go out there and do what it took to make a name. If he was at all like me, the academic side was kind of the fallback. You had your academic career, if all else fails.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I wish I could tell you a little more in depth about Joe, but again, just a musical rival and colleague is how I knew him.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
If you walk around the library on College Street, you will see displays of books banned by organizations, schools, even entire states.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Legacies shape who we are, but who's shaping them? In the new season of Black History Year, our chart-topping history podcast by Push Black, we're breaking down the meaning and power behind the personal, familial, and systemic legacies that define our world. From the iconic legacies of Black family dynasties...
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
to the far-reaching impact of laws like the death penalty, we're diving deep into how political and cultural forces have historically molded Black communities and what it means for our future. Join us on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts for a new season of Black History Year, dropping this February. Let's shape our collective memory and legacy together.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I myself have been married for 56 years. Unfortunately to four different women.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Have you heard the Disgraceland podcast? Do you know about Jerry Lee Lewis wanting to murder Elvis? Or the hip-hop star who cannibalized his roommate? What about the murders ACDC was blamed for? Or the suspicious deaths of Brittany Murphy and River Phoenix?
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
These stories and more are told in the award-winning Disgraceland podcast hosted by me, Jake Brennan, every Tuesday, where I dive deep into the dark side of entertainment and the connection between music history and true crime. Londi's lead singer, Debbie Harry, was shocked when she saw the man's photo in the newspaper. She recognized him. How could she forget?
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
He'd given her a ride years ago, a ride she'd barely escaped from with her life. And now, here he was, right there on the front page, accused of kidnapping and killing at least 30 women. And now, Debbie Harry finally knew his name. Ted Bundy. Follow and listen to Disgraceland on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I write a lot of leadership and finance stories. So a college closing or merging or dealing with severe business issues, hiring and firing.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
We have breaking news tonight. UWL Chancellor Joe Gao has been fired for producing online pornography.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Gao was on holiday break with his family in Florida when he got an email late Wednesday night telling him that he was fired.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I was a little bit shocked and I've been a journalist long enough to not be shocked by much. So I knew this was certainly an unusual case.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
They previously had an OnlyFans behind a paywall that no one really noticed. So they'd been creating this content for a little while, flying completely under the radar.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
She's Carmen. And he's Joe. And we are the Sexy Happy Couple. And this is Sexy Healthy Cooking.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Well, the last step in our meal is to saute the vegetables for the fajitas.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Seems like a perfect time to show you the scene that we shot with Sophie yesterday, and I think you're gonna enjoy it. We had quite a physical workout there with her, so.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
Basically, she was having a conversation talking about pornography and feminism, answering questions from students about things like pornography and human trafficking, and just giving her view as someone who worked in the porn industry.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
I don't know about you all, but that was a workout for me in that scene. We hope you enjoyed it.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 1
The couple have posted videos on porn websites under the username Sexy Happy Couple.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Do you know what went down at the Viper Room the night River Phoenix died? Or how about the mysterious death of Brittany Murphy? Are you aware of how Steve McQueen escaped murder at the hands of the Manson family? The obsessive killing of Dorothy Stratton? The real-life murder that inspired David Lynch's Twin Peaks? The three conspiracies surrounding Marilyn Monroe's death?
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
One of the guys in K told me, he was like, oh yeah, by the peak of this, our fraternity had, I think his quote was, we had a few million dollar guys and a few six figure individuals. I do think there's some exaggeration there, but certainly there was very real money to be made.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
So my name's Max Marshall. I'm an investigative journalist from Texas.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
We've got brand new video into our newsroom of the scene of a shooting in downtown Charleston. Right now, police are still on the scene of Smith Street after a man was shot there this afternoon.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
His dad was a big real estate developer. He built all these houses on Kiowa Island. His mom had run for Congress, and she was on the Charleston school board.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
The DEA got involved, the FBI got involved, U.S. Postal Service got involved. Things kind of started to unravel from there.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Charleston City Police hope one of their biggest drug busts ever will help curb crime on the streets. We're talking about Xanax, cocaine, and drugs.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Over 43,000 Xanax and synthetic marijuana pills, 734 grams of cocaine.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
We're working with our federal partners to see about any possibility of federal prosecution.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
The drug bust happens at College of Charleston, and it feels like it's part of this sort of ending. All these fraternities got kicked off campus. You know, you have students who might be actually going to jail, which is something that's very rare in any sort of fraternity case, whether it's hazing or wrongful death or drug trafficking. It's very rare that kids actually end up going to jail.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
So it felt like an example of like, oh, things are really changing.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
There was a pretty widely publicized string of hazing deaths that sort of happened in the early 2010s. Think pieces in the Atlantic magazine about, you know, why do we have fraternities? And you would see at schools like Amherst, they were getting rid of Greek life. And yeah, there's just this kind of sense of, well, like, it was a good run. This might have been it.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
The question about whether to abolish Greek life has been percolating for years. Countless opinion pieces have made the argument for why this institution has become toxic.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
There was a time when fraternities fit in with society as a whole, but that day is long gone.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
And I think more generally, the idea of being a bro went from like a kind of comic idea of like a dude who's taking a keg stand to the idea of, you know, what we learned in college and afterward, the idea of toxic masculinity and the idea of bro being this sort of intersectional identity of sort of all the most privileged ways you can be in the world.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
White, rich, straight, all of these things sort of combined, I think, to this sense that, uh, Fraternities were not long for this world.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Obviously, that didn't happen. And I think the election was one marker, but I think the bigger marker was just watching over the next few years, all of these fraternities came back on campus.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
I was thinking if I was ever talking to a journalism school about the limits of what investigative journalism can do, you just need to go on the KA and SAE Instagram because their parties are wilder than they've ever been.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
There's a lot of demand both for Xanax as sort of an anti-anxiety drug that you could take if you're stressed out for a test or you're trying to sleep or you're trying to get over a breakup, but also it had this huge demand as a party drug.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
These other guys were mostly dealing in Xanax, and Mikey was charged with dealing cocaine. But I think another part of it is these guys all had pretty exceptional South Carolina criminal defense lawyers. They're high-priced lawyers for a reason. They're very connected. They know all the right people. I think they can sort of make magic happen sometimes.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
I think it became very clear that just because bros might be talked about as villains in movies now or more vilified on Instagram, they still have all of the same material power they always have. It's still the ruling group in America. They still control how things work.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
And yeah, something a fraternity lobbyist told me more recently when he was talking about fraternities today, he said, yeah, my guys are more quiet than they used to. They're not as loud on campus. They don't want to be as public because they know they're sort of controversial in a way they didn't used to be. But they'll sort of tell me like these students can say what they want about us.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
They'll all be working for me one day. I think that kind of tells you all you need to know.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
And so the tragedy of those three deaths is also compounded by the fact that they were a chance to really have some sort of reckoning with a culture that was spiraling a little out of control, but nothing really happened. The next day you wake up and they're like, okay, well, what are we doing for semi-formal? It's truly the road goes on forever and the party never ends.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Some people play it safe, but that's never been my style. I'm Soraya, and this is Rule Breakers, the podcast where we celebrate the rebels, the misfits, and the ones who make their own way. Every week, I sit down with athletes, entertainers, and industry disruptors who don't just push the boundaries, no. They shatter them.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
People would mix it usually with, you know, four or five beers and it felt like you had 12 or 13 beers. And that was actually a very, very popular, very sought after outcome. I do think it's really telling if you think of the sort of go-to it drug of a different generations, like weed or acid in the 60s, cocaine in the 80s, ecstasy in the 90s.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
We talk about the wildest risks they've taken, the lessons they've learned, and the moments that made them who they are. No fillers. No BS. Just real talk with people who refuse to follow the script. And we don't just talk about breaking the rules now. We prove it. Think dog shock collars, bug trivia, blindfold tattoos, and text roulette. The stakes are high and the chaos is real.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
So if you've ever been told to stay in your lane, this show is for you. Follow and listen to Rule Breakers with Soraya, an Odyssey podcast available now for free on the Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Like the fact that our generation's go-to drug is a anti-anxiety tranquilizer designed for panic attacks, that really says something about our generation.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
These stories and more are told in the Hollywoodland podcast, where true crime and Tinseltown collide. Hollywoodland is hosted by me, Jake Brennan, creator of the award-winning music and true crime podcast, Disgraceland. Follow and listen to Hollywoodland wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
When I was in college, a lot of the Xanax that I saw wasn't coming from Pfizer, wasn't coming from pharmacies. It didn't even say Xanax on it. It would have some sort of random collection of numbers and letters. And that, of course, got me asking, OK, well, where are these pills coming from?
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
I saw this sort of row of mugshots, and it was all these guys with kind of the perfect frat swoop haircut. They all kind of had the tans that you get from like playing golf. It actually looked like a fraternity composite.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
I think it said 41,000 pills. But then, of course, I started talking to some defense lawyers in Charleston, and one of them let it slip that the police had found something closer to 3 million pills. And that's when I knew there was definitely a story there.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Travel and Leisure named College of Charleston the most beautiful campus in America. It's all these revolutionary era colorful buildings under palmetto trees and there's Spanish moss hanging from right above you. It's very much out of like a Nicholas Sparks novel or something. And because of that, it attracts a lot of very wealthy out-of-state kids.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Some of the kids in the College of Charleston would pull their literal yachts up to the Charleston deepwater dock and they would fly private to Aspen. And they had allowances to basically go out six or seven nights a week.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
I mean, at first, really, very few people wanted to talk. And I remember I was telling an editor, I was like, Oh, if I'm going to do this story, I need contacts. And he was like, Oh, yeah, contacts are important. You know, list of names. I was like, No, I need contacts. Like, I can't wear glasses, because I need to look more like these guys.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
But I do think coming from the South, having been in a fraternity, it definitely helped. I think it maybe made people people think that this wasn't just gonna be a outsider expose as much as like someone trying to hold a mirror up to his own experience.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Most of these guys start by dealing weed, kind of for obvious reasons. You know, so many kids smoke and it's not considered, quote unquote, sketchy. But for a lot of these guys, the next step up was Xanax.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
There are very few things, I think, in the history of college drug dealing that changed the way business works more than the dark web.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
There's a country song that every fraternity guy in the South loves, The Road Goes On Forever and the Party Never Ends by Robert Earl Keene. It's so beloved by fraternity guys, there's even a country song about how much fraternity guys love this song. Something that I think is pretty true of fraternity culture is the party never ends.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
With the dark web, the authorities really have no idea who or where you are when you're doing something online.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Something a DEA agent told me is that the U.S. Postal Service at this point is the largest drug trafficker by bulk in the world because it's just very easy to send drugs over the mail. You know, I even had a high school friend who was dealing at another school in the South, and he would just get it shipped to the campus mail center hidden in Rob Schneider DVD jackets.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
And these guys would basically rent one beach house about every month. They had an industrial pill press that could print out a few hundred thousand Xanax pills a month, and they would make hundreds and thousands and ultimately millions of these pills.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
And they would wear hazmat suits because these machines kick up so much alprazolam dust, and if it gets on you, you can black out pretty quickly.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
They would sell them to the fraternity guys at anywhere from 50 cents to a dollar a pill. And they would buy in bulk. They would buy 10,000 at a time. And then these guys would turn around and they would sell them for a lot more.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
You know, something a lot of these guys would tell me is you can walk into a fraternity house and there might be 30 customers waiting for you at one time. They like to buy from guys they know. So you sort of have this incredibly centralized system with a lot of customers in one building.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Charleston is really well located for this stuff, not far from I-95. People also said because CFC didn't have a football team, like the fraternity guys were more free to travel on weekends. And in addition to that, you have the fraternity pledge system, which, you know, during hazing, you basically have these freshmen who have to run any errand you tell them to.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
And so if you give a pledge 10 Skittles bags and say, you've got to take this over to Sigma Nu, no questions asked, that's what they would do. It just became this very efficient way of moving these Xanax pills all over Greek life, all around the South.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
You know, you can get caught with 10 pills, you can get caught with 10,000 pills. It's still going to be a possession charge, not a trafficking charge.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Who is going to open a Skittles bag expecting to find a bunch of drugs in there, especially if you're a frat kid driving a Mercedes? And so I think it was just sort of this perfect storm of like there was so much money to be made and it seemed like there was so little risk. And so you combine all that and it's a pretty quote unquote rational way to make a nice profit pretty quickly.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
No matter who gets arrested, no matter who dies, no matter what happens, There will be a party the next weekend, and sometimes the party is a funeral party, but nothing stops the party. Nothing.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
People often sell drugs because it's their best and sometimes only economic option. But these were kids who had four-figure allowances, and some kids had much bigger allowances than that.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
The other words of the year, they were just as online. You know, Oxford's was brain rot. If you can believe it, its first use was in 1854 by Henry David Thoreau. R.I.P. Henry David Thoreau. You would have hated TikTok.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
You're so right, Kate. Hello, listeners. We are the hosts of ICYMI, or rather, in case you missed it, Slate's podcast about internet culture. We're extremely online, so you don't have to be. Follow ICYMI now wherever you listen.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
There's a quote that you would hear sometimes in fraternity life, above the law, under the influence.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
You know, people were doing cocaine off the mirrors. People were taking psychedelics and having sex under the trees all over. And then a guy drove his Hummer into the water and it got stuck. This was all by like noon. By nighttime, they had stripped a lot of the furniture out of these cabins and started a bonfire. They basically burned everything that was burnable inside these cabins.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
And, you know, when I was talking to the guys who were there, I was like, what were the consequences of this? But nothing really happened. Something that a few of the sources told me was their alumni are powerful enough and wealthy enough that, like, if something like that happens, it's sometimes possible to buffer the consequences using generations of wealth.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
One thing people would tell me is like, oh, well, SAE is one of the best fraternities at College of Charleston. Just look at what happened at their mountain weekend. I thought it was fascinating that that was the story people wanted to tell in terms of why SAE was one of the best fraternities.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Because on one level, it's like they're the best fraternity because, well, listen to how wild this party is. But it's also they're the best fraternity because they got away with all of that. When you start to break shit and you start to burn things and you start to break the law, it takes money to get away with it.
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Something people often miss when they talk about Greek life is how much it's sort of this never-ending status Olympics. Like you can really go to any campus in America and ask, what are the three best fraternities and the three best sororities here? And people will immediately have an answer. But what makes one fraternity better than another?
Campus Files
The Party Never Ends
Like the best college football team is the one that wins the most games or the best hospital is going to do the best job of saving your life. Why are some fraternities better than others? A lot of it comes down to wealth.
Campus Files
Harvard's Secret Court
Every week on The Moth Podcast, we share stories that are funny, strange, heartbreaking, and above all, true.
Campus Files
Harvard's Secret Court
Follow and listen to The Moth on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
It would have been best if I could have found a way to go to Tar Heel Nation and said, listen, everybody, I know this Carolina way thing was really intoxicating to think that we were doing all this winning without being as corrupt as Alabama and Auburn and LSU and whoever you want to name. But we just weren't.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
My father and his father and all my father's brothers and lots and lots of people on my father's side of the family went to UNC Chapel Hill. And so I was raised with Carolina Blue stuff all around and with all the legends and folklore of UNC Chapel Hill.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
If I could have found my way to realize it myself sooner and stop looking at the world through Carolina blue glasses, then that might have been better for everybody.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Now the mood on campus today has been vacillating between shock and surprise. Some people said they thought they saw this coming, but there's also been a lot of tears on campus today from faculty members.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Yeah, that's something that's been badly interpreted because the News & Observer wrote an editorial basically congratulating themselves for being the ones who wore me down. And I never thought that Dan King was doing anything other than his job. And while I disagreed with the News & Observer editorial board, they were writing what they had always written about college sports.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
No, the people who wore me down were the people on the other side, the sports fans and the sports trustees.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
They were just constantly telling me, oh, why don't you just tell all these people to go away and ignore this and hire attorneys who can go fight it?
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
These universities are so paralyzed about doing and saying the wrong thing that they're holed up. They're hiding behind their comms people and their attorneys and their reputation consultants.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
You get these jobs by convincing the board that you're going to build academic success and get more Rhodes scholarships and climb in the rankings and all that stuff. But you keep the jobs by managing all of the matters, as we used to call them, that come up. So do you take somebody who knows the academic side and teach them how to run all these things?
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Or do you take somebody who's an excellent general manager and try to get them to understand the intricacies of academia? Nobody's really solved that problem.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I went there for the first time when I was six years old to go to the Moorhead Planetarium, which I eventually ended up running. And I went to football games and all that kind of stuff when I was a kid and was a diehard Carolina basketball fan long before I ended up being in charge of it.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
The universities are way too complicated. They're trying to do too many different things. And so that's where the problem comes from. And while you run a sports entertainment enterprise and a hotel and a fire department and a police department and all these things that these universities are doing, most of which are distractions from research and teaching. So that's the problem.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Now, unfortunately, that's a genie that's very hard to put back in the bottle.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
The University of North Carolina today reeling from a blow, a really big blow to its reputation. An eight-month investigation found thousands of UNC athletes remained eligible to play by taking fake classes that fraudulently boosted their grades.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
As far as the story, no, nothing in there was surprising to me. I had talked to him at length. Actually, he brought his daughter to tour Wash U like the week the report came out. And so the two of us had a long dinner three or four days after the report came out, talking about everything that we'd both been through with the whole thing.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Most of our fans, once they were forced to choose between whether they cared more about winning or cared more about the Carolina way, it turns out they cared more about winning.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
When you go to hire a football coach, first thing they want to know is what's the admissions policy, because they don't want the admissions challenges to constrain them from winning. So when you're hiring a football coach or basketball or anybody else, you're telling them basically, look, the students have to succeed in our majors somehow, but you can recruit anybody you want.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
That's the lesson of all this is that if you're going to compete in intercollegiate athletics, you're going to have these challenges. There's just too much in the system to stop it.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
The people who gained from the AFAM scheme are the athletics department, the coaches, the administrators who had fewer problems to deal with because this was there. Those are the people, the powerful people in these transactions. Debbie Crowder and the athletes, they don't deserve any of the blame for this.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
They were people who were just disadvantaged by the money and power that was going to somebody else.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I mean, everything that we got nailed for in the extra benefits part of the case would be legal now. So maybe nobody would have ever found the ticking time bomb in AFAM. I'm very much in favor of NIL. When I saw how little money was involved in getting these athletes to take money that they weren't supposed to take, it just showed me how much they're exploited.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I went to Chapel Hill as a freshman right after UNC had won the 82 championship. So Michael Jordan played for UNC for two years while I was an undergraduate. And it was really the beginning of the golden years of UNC basketball.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
You know, I remember we had one athlete who just wanted to get a free meal at the Cheesecake Factory. And so I have been on the side of giving the athletes more ever since that happened.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I know NIL is a huge complication for the athletic directors, but as far as I'm concerned, too bad. You guys go figure it out. You're making a lot of bank running these programs. These are people who've been doing the work of sports for all this time. And if they're finally going to get compensated for it, that's good. You go work it out.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I do, you know, the hilarious thing is I ended up being a big college football fan because once you learn that much about a game, it's much more enjoyable to watch it.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
A six-time champion, a football savant, without question the greatest today.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
The seats here at Kenan Stadium surely will be filled next season, and the university is banking on that to help the Tar Heels foot the bill for Belichick's multi-million dollar deal.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Some people play it safe, but that's never been my style. I'm Soraya, and this is Rule Breakers, the podcast where we celebrate the rebels, the misfits, and the ones who make their own way. Every week, I sit down with athletes, entertainers, and industry disruptors who don't just push the boundaries, no. They shatter them.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
We talk about the wildest risks they've taken, the lessons they've learned, and the moments that made them who they are. No filters. No BS. Just real talk with people who refuse to follow the script. And we don't just talk about breaking the rules now. We prove it. Think dog shock collars, bug trivia, blindfold tattoos, and text roulette. The stakes are high and the chaos is real.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Like a lot of young kids from medium-sized towns like mine, it was Fayetteville, North Carolina, I thought I wanted to be a physician. So I became a chemistry major because that was most of the requirements for pre-med, but I changed my mind at the last second to get a PhD in chemistry instead of going to medical school.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
So if you've ever been told to stay in your lane, this show is for you. Follow and listen to Rule Breakers with Soraya, an Odyssey podcast available now for free on the Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I mean, I'm somebody who is very focused on getting things done. I've since come out as being autistic. I'm very task oriented. I'm very literal. If there's a problem to be solved, I want to get it solved.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Yeah, that's a great question. When I was interviewing for the job, there was one question about athletics. And I said some weepy-eyed things about Carolina basketball and how much I loved it. And I just got all the alumni all misty-eyed about the Carolina Blue and all that stuff. And that was the last they asked me.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I mean, I knew about going to the games and stuff, but I knew next to nothing about how athletics really worked. And we had an experienced athletic director. And you have to remember that there was nowhere near their mind that we could have some kind of big scandal either.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
And also, I had a lot of connections in Democratic politics. And it was a time when North Carolina was the unusual southern state in that it hadn't gone red. And so the leaders of Democratic politics in North Carolina were incredibly powerful. And one of the most powerful ones was my father's law partner.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
And so all of those things, I think, added up to me being the person then picked for that job.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
There's no way I would have become the chancellor at UNC at age 43 if it hadn't been for that. So all of those things, I think, added up to me being the person picked for that job.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Thank you. This is an incredible day for my family and me. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to lead the best university in the world.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I think looking back, I definitely could have used a few more years in the administration. A lot changed after I got picked for that job. We had the 2008 financial crisis. The Republicans won the 2010 election and flipped North Carolina red, and we got an athletics crisis.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
You know, I've had good timing in my career and I've had bad timing. Becoming the chancellor of UNC Chapel Hill in 2008 was just bad luck.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
We are Theresa and Nemo and that's why we switched to Shopify.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
The platform we used before Shopify needed regular updates that sometimes led to the shop not working.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Imagine if you could ask someone anything you wanted about their finances. How much do you make? Who paid for that fancy dinner? What did your house actually cost?
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
On every episode of What We Spend, a different guest opens up their wallets, opens up their lives, really, and tells us all about their finances. For one week, they tell us everything they spend their money on.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Okay, testing one, two, three. This is Holden Thorpe.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
My son slammed like $6 worth of blueberries in five minutes.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
This is a podcast about all the ways money comes into our lives and then leaves again, which, of course, we all have a lot of feelings about.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I really want these things. I want to own a house. I want to have a child.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
But this morning, I really wanted a coffee. Because whatever you are buying or not buying or saving or spending, at the end of the day, money is always about more than your balance. I'm Courtney Harrell, and this is What We Spend. Listen to and follow What We Spend, an Odyssey original podcast. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
The other words of the year, they were just as online. You know, Oxford's was brain rot. If you can believe it, its first use was in 1854 by Henry David Thoreau. R.I.P. Henry David Thoreau. You would have hated TikTok. Wait, Candice, we should probably introduce ourselves. You're so right, Kate. Hello, listeners.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
We are the hosts of ICYMI, or rather, in case you missed it, Slate's podcast about internet culture. We're extremely online, so you don't have to be. Follow ICYMI now wherever you listen.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
It's fifth national championship. And more importantly, thanks for salvaging my bracket.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I know Coach Williams instills the importance of academics into all these guys. And what they understood is that being a champion doesn't stop when you step off the court.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Oh, yeah. I was raised on that philosophy. And so while I have great admiration for Dean Smith and what he accomplished, he did manage to convince people that they didn't need to look too closely at how it all worked by coming up with this whole Carolina Way idea. So that made it all the more difficult when I figured out there wasn't as much to it as everybody thought.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
After 50 years of bragging about how we did athletics a different way, that was a cataclysmic event for the University of North Carolina, where I had to somehow go to Darhill Nation and tell them that the Carolina Way was dying because we were suddenly in all this trouble.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
And for a nerdy autistic guy who doesn't know how to work rooms, who's used to solving problems that have an analytical solution, that was one hell of a challenge.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
If we were LSU, we would have played everybody and told the NCAA to go away. And so there was this huge burden on me for deciding to pull all those guys. So the weight of all of the drama of that, yeah, I could barely stand up.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I called over to the public records officer and I said, get the roster for that class. And she gets it and she starts reading the names off of the roll. And it's a who's who of Carolina Athletics and every name she read off, my soul just got crushed because I knew that as soon as she read that roll off, that this thing was a whole lot worse than I thought.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
I thought we just had a bad tutor who was writing people's papers for them. But once I got the role of that first FM class, I knew we were in big trouble because it was apparent to me right that second what the scheme was.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
Because you're telling the media, oh, I'm not going to answer this until the report gets done. Well, that sounds pretty good while you're doing it. But the problem is credit cards have 18% interest. And so the longer you go on putting it on the credit card, the bigger the bill is when the report comes.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
My big mistake was not explaining to the world what I'd figured out about Carolina athletics sooner than I did.
Campus Files
Carolina Way - Part 3 | Carolina's Favorite Son
So, yeah, of course, I knew it went back further than that. But the reason we did 2011 to 2007 was that that was what Dan had in his first public records request.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 2
Every week on The Moth Podcast, we share stories that are funny, strange, heartbreaking, and above all, true.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 2
Follow and listen to The Moth on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. The Moth Podcast.
Campus Files
Hot for Chancellor - Part 2
I see you're very hands-on. I am very hands-on. I would know. Right?
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Every week on The Moth Podcast, we share stories that are funny, strange, heartbreaking, and above all, true.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
That's not at all what they wanted to do. Not at all. They wanted to just sweep it all under the rug and move on.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Everybody stayed away from me like I had some infectious disease or something. I was certainly the bad egg. I was the snitch. But I don't think they knew exactly what to do with me. My boss, he started just following me around everywhere. It was crazy. It was kind of like having a stalker. They were trying to figure out how to fire me with just cause. So it wasn't a fun time.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
It's hard being a whistleblower. It's a difficult existence. You give up so much, including so many friendships.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
You know, look at the history of academic scandals and sports programs over the past 50, 60 years. There's a small handful of people who have been willing to stick their necks out and speak from within the belly of the beast. And Mary belongs to that small list of very courageous people who was willing to do that.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Former Governor Jim Martin released his independent report today on the academic scandal at UNC.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
That report, however, cleared the athletic department of funneling athletes to easy or no-show classes.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
We were unable to discern a clear motive for establishing and offering these perverse and anomalous courses.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
They wanted to put their heads in the sand and pretend that this wasn't as bad as it was. Their interest was in protecting the brand, protecting the university brand, and making the bad headlines stop.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
The University of North Carolina today reeling from a blow, a really big blow to its reputation.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Having Weinstein lay out the case for decades of fraud in the way he did was very gratifying to me personally. I'm a longtime employee at UNC. I shouldn't have taken such joy at UNC's humiliation, but I did.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
What happened at UNC now appears to be the biggest academic fraud scandal in all of college sports history. And I have to tell you that this is validation for Mary Willingham,
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
the paper class system. It was so well designed and so large and involved so many people over so many years. I feel just a little bit of sympathy, I have to say, for the enforcement staff of the NCAA.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
I think the UNC lawyers were extremely clever and they basically found a way to pin NCAA rules back on the NCAA.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
I think UNC had the right argument. In order to advance that argument, however, they all had to look like fools, like complete utter fools, and say, yes, we at UNC are happy to offer contentless courses. We think that is exactly the way university students should be taught. They even said that, you know.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
This is an ideal, an ideal learning experience for our athletes to be offered this customized instruction. I mean, it's laughable. It's laughable, but I think they found, by God, they found the loophole. And I'm willing to congratulate the UNC staff for developing a brilliant counterargument.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
The word is that the Tar Heels will avoid major sanctions. Many thought this was going to be doomsday for the Tar Heels.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
That was the worst punishment it suffered. And it deserved much worse. It deserved to pay a serious, meaningful institutional price for decades of cheating. And it didn't have to.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
To make a long story short, accountability didn't mean anything to them. They were not interested in dealing truthfully with what had happened.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
So I designed this class that was focused on the rights of athletes and the various ways in which they are suppressed, mitigated, violated all the time.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
I want to be as fair and generous as I can to my colleagues here at UNC. I do want to acknowledge that steps have been taken to ensure that certain kinds of abuses can't occur again. So the independent studies system has been completely revamped.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
I can say with confidence that we will never again have a situation in which a single faculty member or a single department is offering hundreds of independent studies every year.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
And for a while, the provost's office would do classroom checks for Not in the old-fashioned way that the athletic department used to, to make sure that their students were attending classes, but to make sure that professors are in classes. Love it. Gotta love it.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Athletics is bigger than it ever was, here and everywhere. The pressure to win and to compete and to maintain the reputation of the athletic program here and elsewhere is only growing.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
And what that tells us is that personnel at these universities, whether they're professors or advisors or administrators, people will be looking for the paths of least resistance for athletes who need to stay eligible for their sports. Paths of least resistance aren't going anywhere.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
The basic paradox that is the modern university, that is that it is ostensibly an academic enterprise all about nurturing minds and developing and imparting new knowledge, but is also running this multi-million dollar business that's generated by the profit motive. That paradox remains. and I don't think it's going anywhere.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
I grew up in Charlotte, North Carolina, and as anybody who's from North Carolina will tell you, I think college basketball in particular is a humongous deal here.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
The higher-ups are concerned about one thing, and that is avoiding scandal.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
It was the biggest academic scandal in the history of college sports and probably in the history of academia.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
A chancellor having a pornographic double life is an extremely rare case.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Basketball is so central and so sort of attached to the heart of UNC for a couple of very obvious reasons. One of them is that the most famous basketball player who has ever lived went to Carolina. It's Michael Jordan, of course. He's very much attached to the program still. His image is on the Nike logo that adorns UNC apparel. And then the second reason is Dean Smith.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Follow and listen to The Moth on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
This was a coach who talked very loudly and persuasively about the importance of academics and of ethics. This was an intoxicating quality for professors, for students, for administrators, because Dean Smith was coaching in an era where people started to get a little bit antsy in college sports about scandals.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
If you were a student at UNC, the Carolina way is not something you could miss. It was everywhere. That phrase alone, you would see everywhere on signs. If you went to any kind of sporting event, you would see it. It was a source of institutional pride, the idea that you can win and you can win the right way. You can win the Carolina way.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
This player tweeted basically that like he was in Miami at a club and getting bottles for free, something to that effect. And it was like a lyric from a song, but it caught a bunch of notice, including from NCAA investigators.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
He argued that the NCAA and UNC had overreached. He filed a lawsuit and buried inside of this lawsuit were some of the papers that this player had written to prove that he'd done his own academic work.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
So some NC State fans go into the lawsuit, they plug it into a plagiarism detection software and find that, lo and behold, this paper was heavily plagiarized.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
And the leaders of the university wanted to do everything they could to sustain and promote future athletic success.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
There were so many flags there that this was a lot of lifted passages and some really outdated information. I mean, why didn't anybody catch it?
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
His transcript was really interesting because it showed that the first class that he took at Carolina was not your typical introductory class. It was a 400 level during the summer.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
And then he goes in to start a sort of regular first semester as a freshman. And his grades in many of his classes were just way below what he pulled in that class. So he really stuck out as an outlier.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
I'm in the academic support program and I'm working with athletes who, they're just so far behind. How on earth are we going to keep these players eligible? You know, I learned about the paper class system pretty quickly.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
And we made the decision right there that this is a story. There's something wrong here. Something doesn't make sense. We published another story. And that day, Mary Willingham sent me an email and she was willing to talk off the record.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
So I asked her what was going on here, you know, with what we were seeing. And she said the African Afro-American Studies Department, you know, had these classes that, you know, looked like they were lecture classes, but they weren't in fact meeting. And this was just absolutely mind-blowing.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
You know, there was this sense of holding back, trying to control the story, trying to say we dealt with it, time to move forward.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
I myself have been married for 56 years. Unfortunately to four different women.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
There was a Potemkin village of a curriculum here. The courses had titles, they had course numbers, it seemed that they had instructors, and none of that was real.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
So I looked at this and I said, it just wasn't coincidental that on this transcript, the student, this mock student, does poorly in everything, almost everything, except for these AFAM classes. This looked like it was a real transcript and it looked like somebody who's a beneficiary of these classes.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
The university just insisted over and over again that this was not a real transcript. It was a mock transcript. It was just designed to test this tool.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
One in a billion shot that this would ever happen. I mean, it was just kind of an explosion, you know, a big explosion because it really put into focus the seriousness of the situation.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
That's the biggest academic scandal in the history of college sports and probably in the history of academia. We were all complicit because we enjoyed game day so much. Shame on us.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Have you heard the Disgraceland podcast? Do you know about Jerry Lee Lewis wanting to murder Elvis? Or the hip-hop star who cannibalized his roommate? What about the murders ACDC was blamed for? Or the suspicious deaths of Brittany Murphy and River Phoenix?
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
These stories and more are told in the award-winning Disgraceland podcast hosted by me, Jake Brennan, every Tuesday, where I dive deep into the dark side of entertainment and the connection between music history and true crime. Laundie's lead singer, Debbie Harry, was shocked when she saw the man's photo in the newspaper. She recognized him. How could she forget?
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
He'd given her a ride years ago, a ride she'd barely escaped from with her life. And now, here he was, right there on the front page, accused of kidnapping and killing at least 30 women. And now, Debbie Harry finally knew his name. Ted Bundy. Follow and listen to Disgraceland on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
And I sat at his memorial service and listened to people talk about how important academic integrity was.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
Mr. Friday was a man of high morals and values. Integrity in all institutions and in all walks of life mattered greatly to him.
Campus Files
The Carolina Way - Part 2
And I went home and I said, I've got to do something. And my husband was like, you should just write a blog post. And that's what I did. And then that's when Dan said, well, you may as well talk to me now.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Do you know what went down at the Viper Room the night River Phoenix died? Or how about the mysterious death of Brittany Murphy? Are you aware of how Steve McQueen escaped murder at the hands of the Manson family? The obsessive killing of Dorothy Stratton? The real-life murder that inspired David Lynch's Twin Peaks? The three conspiracies surrounding Marilyn Monroe's death?
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I remember expressing surprise that I had not gotten into trouble already. I'm sure things got back to the faculty of the administration, but I did not get into trouble. Until I did.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
And they never told me about this, the determinative factor. I found out from other faculty.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
There was a sit-in on campus about race. And of course, at first, people were unwilling to open their mouths. So here we have a student on campus, this issue which is roiling the college community, and students are unwilling to talk about it. So as usual, I said, I am not going to accept this. So we were having this debate.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
We had passed through microaggression and there was a girl who was speaking out. She happened to be the poorest student in the class. And she was saying something and a black student said, well, I don't have to listen to anything you say because she was white. And I said, you know what you just did to her. is you discounted her as a person on the basis of her skin color.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I said, and that's a microaggression. He reacted in a way I've never seen a student react. And I actually went to talk to him after class to ask if everything was okay. And he said it was, but that's what did me in.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I went out of my way to treat everyone equal in class. And under certain circumstances, that meant not avoiding saying things because people were members of a certain ethnicity or a certain religion. That became a real problem.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Students wrote like five-page letters. Hundreds of students wrote like five-page letters to the administration saying that my class changed their lives. It changed their ways of thinking about the world.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I said, if they really believed their own rhetoric, they would be guilty of willfully endangering students.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I was a very strange child, but I was always an intellectual in the good sense of the term. And I think I always knew I was going to PhD from the time I was a child.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
People having their careers torn asunder, illegitimately, having done nothing wrong. In fact, in many cases, having done everything right. Which brings us to the case of Evan Charney.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
The only people who reached out to me were conservatives. They identified with me and maybe, probably, didn't fully realize where I was coming from. That I was not coming from this as a conservative. I could play my little game and say, well, you'll never know. But I'm going to tell you the truth. I am a far-left liberal. I'm also a liberal who believes in the unfettered right to free speech.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Today, we're delivering a clear message to the professors and power structures trying to suppress dissent and keep young Americans from challenging rigid far-left ideology. People who are confident in their beliefs do not censor others.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
The hypocrisy is none of those people are really champions of free speech. What they want is to diminish the influence of liberal speech and replace it with conservative speech. So they want the power hierarchies that exist on some college campuses to be reversed. What they don't want...
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
is an open field for debate and contestation where all these different ideas can be expressed freely and openly. Toleration in respect to free speech is one of the hardest things to do, which is why probably for the most part, people are not willing to do it.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Those who would get gratification out of knowing that they've harmed me, they should go celebrate because of two things. Number one, when I say I love my students, I really did. I had a family of like hundreds and it was like losing my extended family. And I felt that it was going to be very hard for me to get another job. I didn't realize that it was going to be absolutely impossible.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
It took me years to get a job, any job, really. I'm a science editor at Northwestern, which every other day basically say, I don't want to do this anymore, to be perfectly honest. And I still miss teaching.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
And it wasn't until I actually started teaching as a professor that I discovered just how much I loved teaching, how exhilarating I found it, and how much I loved working with young people. And how there's a certain high that comes with teaching, especially when teaching goes well, that is just incomparable.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I chose to tell my story to add a voice, a voice of warning and a plea.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I would say the greatest danger to universities now is suppressing speech out of the misguided idea that the point of a college or university is to make students feel comfortable. Like if you want to do that, open up a resort on Miami Beach, okay? And invite them there for the summer. As far as I'm concerned, that's the total degradation and destruction of the educational mission of a university.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Some people play it safe, but that's never been my style. I'm Soraya, and this is Rule Breakers, the podcast where we celebrate the rebels, the misfits, and the ones who make their own way. Every week, I sit down with athletes, entertainers, and industry disruptors who don't just push the boundaries, no. They shatter them.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
We talk about the wildest risks they've taken, the lessons they've learned, and the moments that made them who they are. No filters. No BS. Just real talk with people who refuse to follow the script. And we don't just talk about breaking the rules now. We prove it. Think dog shock collars, bug trivia, blindfold tattoos, and text roulette. The stakes are high and the chaos is real.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
So if you've ever been told to stay in your lane, this show is for you. Follow and listen to Rule Breakers with Soraya, an Odyssey podcast available now for free on the Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Over time, as the course progressed, my sense of what my mission was grew. I realized that, and I mean this quite seriously, that when students come to class, Young adults, 18, 19, they feel they know what is right and what is wrong. They feel they know all the answers. And my first mission as a teacher was to show them that they didn't know anything.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
These stories and more are told in the Hollywoodland podcast, where true crime and Tinseltown collide. Hollywoodland is hosted by me, Jake Brennan, creator of the award-winning music and true crime podcast, Disgraceland. Follow and listen to Hollywoodland wherever you get your podcasts.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I would say to them, look, Socratic wisdom begins with a sense of your own ignorance with an awareness that you do not know what you thought you know. So it's going to be one of my central tasks in this class to relentlessly attack your deepest hell convictions and cherished ideals. And I am going to point out to you that your beliefs are unfounded or contradictory.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
As students learned very quickly, this was done, believe it or not, in a spirit of respect and empathy and fellow feeling. And I made clear to the students that if I can go after you, you can go after me. In fact, I encourage you to do this.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
One of the best topics that I dealt with in terms of trying to lead students into a state of aporia, that is a state where they did not know what to say, was when I did bestiality, people having sex with animals. So I would start by saying, okay, I'm going to give the following arguments against homosexuality. And I said, you know, I think it's unnatural.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
You know, and students would say, what are you talking about? You know, it occurs in nature. And I say, yes, but it doesn't lead to procreation. And the students, you know, they were being indulgent because they knew I was being stupid for some reason. And then I'd say, okay, how about this? And then I would show them a video.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Now, the video was not of people having sex with animals, but it was a video by someone who was promoting what adherents of this like to call zoophilia. And the first thing students would start to say is, oh, well, that's unnatural. And I'd say, what did you just say? I said, you can't say it's unnatural. I just said something was unnatural and you laughed at me. You tore me apart.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Students did not know what to say. They were completely and totally lost.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
And I told them, I am not going to give you the answers to controversial questions. I'm going to give you the tools to come up with reasonable defenses of different sides of any given issue. But I don't want you to believe in, quote unquote, the right answer because it's the answer I believe in. The success of the class also depended upon there being a plurality of different points of view.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
So one of the ways in which I would address this was I would ask the question, how many of you believe that women should have a right to have an abortion? And everyone would raise their hands and I'd say, OK, bullshit. I do not believe that everyone in this class has the same point of view. I do not believe there is a uniformity of opinion in this class.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
And then I would tell them if those who held conservative views were going to engage in in self-censorship then it would spell the death of the class because this class is about above all being intellectually challenged
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I mean, what was so sad is that there was such a hunger amongst the students for what I did, because I did things that no one else would do. And I challenged them in ways that no one else would challenge them.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Endlich macht unser Nemo Boards Shop dadurch auch auf den Mobilgeräten eine gute Figur. Und die Illustrationen auf den Boards kommen jetzt viel, viel klarer rüber, was uns ja auch wichtig ist und was unsere Marke auch ausmacht.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Starte dein Test nur heute für 1 Euro pro Monat auf shopify.de slash radio.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I had a very close relationship with a lot of my students and I enjoyed talking at length with the students. Sometimes we'd often just get together for coffee and we would talk for hours. And I would ask them questions about not just their hopes and aspirations, but about campus life.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Because I tried as far as I could to relate some of the topics that I was dealing with to students' own personal moral dilemmas and life experiences. So, for example, I spent a lot of time talking about chauvinism on the Duke campus. And it was extraordinary the extent to which I was able to show students that so much of Greek life, of nightlife,
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
of campus culture was dictated by men and was designed for the sexual gratification of men and so forth.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I always felt that to be an effective teacher, it was important that I know what students were experiencing on a daily basis. The pressures, their emotions, their fears. I showed a lot of genuine care and affection toward my students and concern. And, you know, students would come to me when they were having emotional problems. I mean, I was quite moved by that. I love my students.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
The use of the term harm expanded to such an extent that it encompassed or came to encompass points of view that people were opposed to or that they found disagreeable. And the extent to which students would react as if I had done something to them grew and grew.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
I think I used the term political correctness. But by the way, I was always careful to say that there is political correctness on the left and there is political correctness on the right. No ideology has a monopoly on political correctness. But she said, you know, it hurts me every time someone uses the term political correctness. And I said, did you see this scar? I said, that hurt.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Don't tell me that hearing the term political correctness hurts you. Well, she like went back in her chair, like slammed back and was stupefied because she thought she had a Trump card that was going to shut me up. It wasn't because of what I said, per se.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
It was because, you know, I didn't fall at her feet and beg for forgiveness and sort of reinforce the perverse ways in which students understand that they can exercise control over their professors. That was the beginning of something really important for me.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
As students head back to class, a new book challenges colleges to better prepare young people for life after they graduate.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Should American colleges try to protect students from anything — words, books, even ideas — simply because it might upset them?
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
Over time, I started realizing that students had lost sight or no longer were able to comprehend the distinction between, say, discussing the use of offensive speech, say, in a law case, and using an offensive epithet directed at someone with the intent of making them upset.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
So we started reaching a point where it was becoming harder and harder for me to discuss the topic of speech, which was increasingly becoming, and that's no coincidence, the most important topic on college campuses in this country. And I could so easily have left out that topic, and I refused to do it.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
It always surprised me when students would say, especially when I would deal with issues of race, that they never talked about that in any other class. They never talked about it their whole time at Duke. And I would say to them, are you kidding? And they were serious. And of course, this was part of the culture.
Campus Files
Dogmatic Slumber
The part of the culture was that professors, faculty, were so afraid of offending their students, so afraid of making their students upset, and so afraid of facing potentially negative consequences for that, that they avoided controversial subjects. Of course, I refuse to be intimidated by any of that.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, Maximoff doesn't explicitly state that. But he does raise some serious questions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Even when it's pursued in the name of noble goals.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Those ideals of equality and justice.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
What Maximoff does so brilliantly is make us confront these questions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And the potential for even the most well-intentioned ideologies to be twisted into instruments of oppression.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
The only way to like truly achieve revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's not just about the Russian Revolution. It's about understanding the dynamics of power.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's about recognizing the warning signs.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That can indicate when a revolution is veering off course.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But Maximoff does make us think twice about revelationary violence.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He makes us really consider the costs.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
No matter our political beliefs.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's definitely been a journey.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's like Maximoff gives us this new lens to view history through. And maybe even the world around us.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
I think the most important lesson is never take freedom for granted.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, yeah. It was a foundation laid by Marx himself.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Always be skeptical. Always be questioning.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Even when it's difficult. Even when it's dangerous.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But it ultimately, I think it's left us with more hope than despair.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Because knowledge is power. And the more we understand about the past, the better equipped we are to avoid repeating those mistakes.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Never stop seeking the truth. That's the best way to honor the legacy of those who fought for a better world.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's a reminder that we all have a responsibility to shape the future.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
I know what you're going to say.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
So that we can create a world that is truly just and free.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But what's so chilling is how this phrase, straight from Marx and Engels, it became the bedrock for the Bolsheviks' increasingly harsh actions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, to silence anyone they considered an enemy of the revolution. And remember, this is the time.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
The supposed champion of the people.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
even other socialist and anarchist groups.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
So this is where Maximoff's distinction between enemies and adversaries becomes so important.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
How it all began, how it was established.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, the classic class enemy.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, even if they were kind of fighting for similar goals.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
When the Bolsheviks straight up attacked anarchist organizations.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Nope. A couple of months later, they kicked the social revolutionists and social democrats out of the Soviets.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
You're either with us or against us.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Maximoff makes that connection to the French Revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Not just admired the Jacobins, but saw terror as a necessary tool for revolutionary success.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah. Maximoff reveals Lenin's plan went beyond just executions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah. And compares them to like the writings of Marx and Engels.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Using the state's control over food?
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's where things get especially dark.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
One of the areas where Maximoff's analysis really stands out.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Among many, he believed he had discovered an even more potent weapon. Control over the basic necessities of life.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He was trying to control their stomachs.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Makes terror by starvation so chilling.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, Maximoff quotes Lenin extensively on this. And it's in these quotes where we see the truly terrifying logic.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
More powerful tools of control than any law or execution.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And remember, this was a time of massive food shortages, skyrocketing inflation.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Lenin's terror by starvation wasn't about literally starving everyone to death.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was about using the state's control over food distribution to reward loyalty and punish dissent.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
They wouldn't dare challenge it.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was about transforming the very act of eating into a political act.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Maximoff takes us on quite a journey.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Maximoff goes on to show how this system of control, this terror by starvation, had devastating consequences for the Russian people and laid the groundwork for even greater horrors. But we'll save that for the next part of our deep dive. Buckle up, because it's about to get even more intense.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, you will be. So we left off talking about this terror by starvation and how it created this system of control.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It really was. And you know what's wild is it wasn't just about punishing active resistance. Maximoff, he digs into this idea of passive resistance that Lenin was obsessed with.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Like Lenin's this champion of the people, right?
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Basically, yeah, Lenin claims that the most harmful and dangerous kind of resistance.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Just not being fully on board with the program.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Praising those democratic ideals of the Paris commune.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah. Not meeting those quotas.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, yeah. That's some serious thought control, right?
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
I mean, it sounds crazy, but that's what Maximoff is showing us.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, absolutely. And this is where Maximoff's attention to historical detail really shines.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Exactly. He wasn't just theorizing from some ivory tower.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Especially those who refused to sell their grain at the state's fixed prices.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Terrible deal for the farmers.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
You got it, Liz Liu's situation.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
No, he went all in on the rhetoric.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, this is going to be a wild one.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, that's the glaring contradiction that Maximoff highlights.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And what Maximoff does so well is use quotes.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But then alienating and antagonizing vast segments of the population.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, it's kind of mind-boggling when you think about it.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Seems incredibly short-sighted.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And it gets worse. Maximoff describes how Lenin unleashes these committees of poor peasants.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
They were given free reign to confiscate grain and crush any resistance.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
You know it, classic divide and conquer.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was a recipe for chaos. The Combides, they often used incredibly brutal tactics.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
The whole thing backfired spectacularly. The government eventually had to disband them.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
From Marx himself, like way back in 1850. When he was addressing the union of communists.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, yeah. The seeds of distrust and resentment had been sown.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And that's precisely the chilling point Maximoff is driving at.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
This urge to control and punish.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He saw it as the only way to achieve true revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
They did. Yeah. Maximoff even mentions that in the chapter.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, that's one of the things that makes Maximoff's argument so compelling.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
In fact, he uses them to strengthen his case.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, Maximoff suggests that Lenin was a very shrewd politician.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He knew that openly advocating for terror would have been a really bad look.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
People were yearning for peace and justice.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Right. So Maximoff is arguing that it was all part of a deliberate strategy.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But with the intention of ditching those ideals once in control.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And to back this up, Maximoff points to the gradual escalation of repression and violence that followed the Bolshevik takeover.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, there were definitely internal debates and disagreements.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Not at all. Maximoff even quotes Lenin lashing out at fellow Bolsheviks who questioned his methods.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Called them soft, sentimental.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And Maximoff argues that this intolerance, this inability to brook any opposition, was a key factor in the Bolshevik state's rapid slide into tyranny.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, that one's a real head scratcher.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, Maximoff is arguing that just as ancient slaveholders could practice a form of democracy amongst themselves.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Exactly. So, too, could the Bolsheviks claim to be establishing a proletarian democracy.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Basically saying that this dictatorship of the proletariat was really just a dictatorship in disguise.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That's the heart of Maximoff's argument. And he supports it by showing how this system inevitably turned almost everyone into an adversary.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
They ended up being victims of the system.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's like, whoa, hold on a sec.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Why did Lenin cling to it so fiercely?
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Maximoff doesn't really delve into the psychology of Lenin.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But he does suggest that this rhetoric of proletarian dictatorship served a crucial ideological function.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
To claim that they were acting on behalf of the working class.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's a brilliant strategy in a way, but also incredibly cynical.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
By wrapping themselves in the language of revolution and liberation.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
With a ruthlessness that shocked even some of their own supporters.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Using language to manipulate and control people just as effectively as they used the terror by starvation.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That's the power of good history.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He suggests that this tendency towards authoritarianism wasn't just a product of Lenin's personality.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He sees it as a fundamental flaw in the very ideology of Marxism itself.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
I don't think he'd go that far.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That's a debate for another time.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But Maximoff certainly raises some provocative questions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, this quote really reveals a major tension brewing within socialist thought at the time.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And the seductive allure of absolute power.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
We've covered a lot of ground.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Our brains have definitely gotten a workout today.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, no, there's more to come.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And the chilling legacy he left behind.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Like how those theories of Marx and Engels.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
The brutal reality of that early Bolshevik state.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
You had groups like the Communards who were all about that like grassroots democracy, that decentralized vision.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, we've got more to uncover.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Right. He wants us to see the bigger picture.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Exactly. He's arguing that this descent into authoritarianism.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was a flaw in the system itself.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It is. But he backs it up by looking at the long term consequences.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That obsession with centralized control.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Created a culture of fear and suspicion that poisoned Soviet society for decades.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Absolutely. Maximoff gives all these historical examples.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Created a climate where anyone could be accused of being an enemy of the state.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was a system that rewarded informers and encouraged people to turn on each other.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That's the whole point Maximoff is trying to get across.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But Marx and Engels and later Lenin, they believed that a powerful centralized state.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It ended up devouring not only its enemies.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's a provocative argument for sure.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
All right, so today we're going to dive into some really fascinating stuff about Lenin.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. But I think there are some important takeaways that still resonate.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Well, first, I think it's a stark reminder that power is seductive.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And even those who claim to fight for freedom and equality can be corrupted by it.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Second, it really highlights the danger of utopian thinking. This belief that you can create a perfect society through force or ideology. And often, you know, at the expense of individual rights and freedoms.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, it's one of the core texts. And so for Maximo, for revolutionary himself to kind of label it that way is is quite a statement.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That's a good point. It's a cautionary tale about the allure of power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And the importance of those checks and balances, no matter what your political system is.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, I think the final takeaway and maybe the most crucial is that it underscores the importance of critical thinking, of questioning those in power, of holding them accountable to their promises.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Regardless of how inspiring their rhetoric might be.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That's right. We can't just take things at face value.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Especially in times of big change and upheaval.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, we have to evaluate their actions, their motivations, and whether those actions actually line up with their values.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Absolutely. And that's something that Maximoff himself emphasizes. His work isn't just a historical account. It's really a call to action, an invitation to engage with history, not as passive observers, but as active participants in shaping the world we want to live in.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
I think we'll wrap up this deep dive into Lenin's rise to power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
I think that's a good place to stop.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. We hope you found it fascinating and thought provoking.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Well, he points to some of the specific demands that are outlined in the manifesto and how he believes that that lays the groundwork for an authoritarian system. OK, so he talks about. the demand for a dictatorship of the proletariat, the call for absolute centralization, and the formation of industrial armies, particularly in agriculture. So this vision of a highly controlled society where
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
As always, we encourage you to continue exploring these ideas.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Questioning those assumptions.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And diving deep into the complexities of history.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
individual liberties take a backseat to the needs of the state is what he sees as ultimately leading down that path toward what another prominent socialist figure at the time, Karl Kautsky, called state slavery.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
State slavery. That is a chilling phrase.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. It makes you think about, you know, I don't know if if our listeners have ever considered You know, what happens when an ideology, no matter how well intentions goes to its extreme. Right. It goes to its logical conclusion.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It can have some really scary consequences.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And I think it's worth noting that this isn't just Maximoff's opinion. You know, this concern about state slavery was shared by others within the socialist movement who were seeing where things were headed in Russia.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So we have this backdrop of Russia's inherent humanism. And this revolutionary movement with all this energy behind it and this figure Lenin kind of coming to the forefront.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
But here's where things get really interesting. According to Maximoff, Lenin actually comes to power by temporarily distancing himself from those very ideas in the Communist Manifesto. It's almost like he knew that those ideas wouldn't resonate with a population that was yearning for freedom.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Maximoff argues that, you know, Lenin was a very shrewd and in some ways Machiavellian political player. He understood the power of appealing to people's desires. And so instead of focusing on the more authoritarian aspects of the Communist Manifesto, he cleverly utilized ideas from another one of Marx's pamphlets, The Civil War in France.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So kind of a strategic repositioning.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
OK, so what was so different about the civil war in France? Why would that be more appealing to the people in Russia at the time?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Well, the civil war in France advocated for things like decentralized power, individual liberties, a government that was accountable to the people. You know, this is a much more appealing message for a population that had just overthrown a czar.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it was more in line with their lived experience.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, absolutely. And it was a way for Lenin to kind of, you know, get the trust of the masses.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it was a way to build a following to say, hey, look, what I'm offering is really what you want.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Exactly. And, you know, Maximoff even quotes Lenin later on, kind of admitting to this tactic in 1922.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He essentially says, you know, look, we had to start somewhere. We had to make promises. We had to kind of paint a picture of a future that people would believe in. We couldn't have launched the revolution any other way.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Specifically, chapter one, which is all about Lenin's road to power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So he's acknowledging that, you know, sometimes you got to you got to, you know, kind of fudge the truth a little bit.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Right. We often forget that revolutions are political movements.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
They require strategy. They require persuasion.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And sometimes a little bit of, you know, we'll we'll call it deception.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. And think about the context. Right. Russia's in the middle of World War One. There's economic instability. Right. There's food shortages.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
There's growing discontent with how things are.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And then this guy comes along and he's charismatic.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And he's offering a brighter future. He's saying, look, I got freedom. I got quality. I got true democracy.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's no wonder people started to follow him.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And it is a fascinating road. It is. You know, one of the things that that Maximoff points out is that, you know, the Russian Revolution actually started as a bloodless revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He was tapping into a deep well of discontent. Right. And offering a seemingly viable path forward.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And Maximoff goes into detail about the specific promises that Lenin made.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Okay. Let's hear some of those promises.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
What did he offer that was so compelling?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Well, first and foremost, he promised a republic.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Of workers, peasants and farm laborers with power vested in local Soviets.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So a highly decentralized system where communities would have control over their own affairs.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So really putting the power in the hands of the people.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He also promised to abolish the standing army and police. Wow. To be replaced by an armed populace.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So radical shift in power dynamics there.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's like this grassroots approach to defense and security.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it's not top down. It's really coming from the ground up. That's right. OK. What else?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He also pledged to eliminate the bureaucracy and privileged officialdom that had plagued the czarist regime.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And in their place, there would be elected and importantly, recallable delegates.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Recallable. So if you don't like how someone's doing, you just get rid of them.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Real accountability built into the system.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
I could see why people would be drawn to that.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Especially after living under a czar where your voice didn't matter.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yes, a really important one. He guaranteed freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of demonstration.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So the cornerstones of a free society.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Where dissents actually encouraged. So he's painting this picture of truly democratic Russia with power distributed amongst the people.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. And you think about that.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
A government that's accountable and individual liberties protected. Yeah. I mean, compared to what they were living under, this sounds pretty good.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It does. And those promises resonated deeply with the Russian people. They were ready for change. And Lenin seemed to be offering a path toward a more just and equitable society. But as we know, the reality of his rule turned out to be quite different.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's kind of counterintuitive to how we think about this.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And that's what we're going to explore in the rest of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
We're going to unpack the stark contrast between These inspiring promises and the sometimes harsh realities of Lenin's post-revolution actions.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, it's a fascinating story of ambition ideology, the complexities of power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's amazing how quickly those promises unravel.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Usually it's associated with a lot of violence and bloodshed.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, those grand pronouncements of freedom and democracy.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's almost like a bait and switch, isn't it?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It really is. You go from this hopeful rhetoric to some pretty harsh realities. Yeah. And one of the most glaring examples that Maximoff points out is the death penalty.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Here's Lenin before the revolution railing against capital punishment.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Using it as a tool to criticize the provisional government. Right. And then almost immediately after seizing power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. But but the the initial kind of overthrow, if you will, was it was actually bloodless. And, you know, when you think about Russia as a country, historically, there's a lot of humanism. You know, in the literature and absolutely in the legal system leading up to the revolution, you know, really focused on on human rights and compassion and all that.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Maximoff actually describes this moment where Lenin learns that the death penalty has been abolished and he is furious. Really? Yeah. It's this complete 180.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And it really reveals, I think, something about his underlying views on on violence and the use of state power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It makes you wonder what was going through his mind.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, like we're in a chaotic situation. We need to restore order. Right. Or was it something more calculated, more in line with those authoritarian tendencies that Maximoff sees in political Marxism?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. I think that's the question, isn't it? And Maximoff suggests that it wasn't simply a matter of circumstance. You know, he argues that Lenin, despite his rhetoric, always saw terror as a kind of essential tool for building the kind of state he envisioned.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it wasn't just about restoring order. It was about consolidating control, eliminating any potential threats.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And that brings us to another broken promise, the coalition's socialist government.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Before the revolution, Lenin talks about different socialist parties working together, finding common ground, wielding a government that represents a broad spectrum of views.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. But then when he has the chance to actually form such a government.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He does. And that rejection of the coalition is I think a pivotal moment.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It speaks volumes about Lenin's real intentions. Yeah. He had the opportunity to create a more inclusive system. Right. A more collaborative system. But he chose dictatorship over cooperation.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, he wanted absolute control.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It seems clear that that's what he wanted, and he wasn't willing to share power with anyone who might challenge his vision.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Makes you wonder if that decision actually prolonged the Civil War.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, pitting socialist against socialist, further dividing an already incredibly fractured country.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, that's a point that Maximoff raises as well.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He suggests that Lenin's rejection of the coalition wasn't just about consolidating power within the government, but it was also a strategic move to eliminate his political rivals.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Wow. So he's thinking long game? Using the revolution as a springboard to establish this totalitarian state.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. And it kind of goes back to those ideas in the Communist Manifesto. You know, despite his earlier pronouncements, it seems like that's the direction he was always headed in.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, this idea that he was playing this long game.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That's exactly what Maximoff argues.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He sees those early promises of freedom and decentralization as a deliberate deception, a tactic designed to mask Lenin's true intentions.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And the evidence really does point in that direction when you look at how those promises unraveled once he was in power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So let's go back to those specific promises and kind of see how they played out in reality.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
We talked about the death penalty. We talked about the rejection of the coalition government.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
What are some other examples of this disconnect between rhetoric and action?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Let's take the promise of empowering local Soviets. Lenin talked about this decentralized system where communities would have genuine autonomy, you know, power flowing from the bottom up.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it's really interesting how a movement that seems to start with these humanist ideals ends up giving rise to, you know, we often associate with with Lenin, which is this brutal authoritarian regime.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
But what happened in practice was quite different.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He very quickly moved to undermine the power of the Central Executive Committee of the Soviets.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Concentrating more and more power in his own hands and within the Bolshevik Party.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
His rise to power. And specifically, we're going to be looking at the contrast between what he was promising before the revolution and kind of what happened afterward, the actions that were taken. Yeah. And our main source for this is... is going to be Gregory Maximoff's guillotine at work.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It was a highly centralized and increasingly authoritarian regime.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So much for all power to the Soviets.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It seems like it was more like all power to Lenin and the Bolsheviks.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
What about his pledge to abolish the standing army and police?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Not at all. In fact, one of the first things Lenin did was to create a new, very powerful centralized military force, the Red Army.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Which he used ruthlessly to crush any opposition. Wow. Both from within and outside the Bolshevik party.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So instead of empowering the people.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He created a tool of state control.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
A way to enforce his will and suppress any dissent.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And what about those guaranteed freedoms of the press assembly demonstration?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Those core tenets. of a free and open society that he promised to uphold?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Those were very quickly suppressed.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Independent newspapers were shut down. Opposition groups were outlawed. And any form of dissent was met with brutal repression.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's a far cry from the democratic ideals he espoused before the revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's a pretty devastating contrast, wouldn't you say?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. I mean, he promised freedom.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
But he delivered oppression. Yeah. He promised democracy, but he delivered dictatorship.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And what's so tragic about it is that, you know, Maximoff points out that the Russian people at their core really did have this deep belief in humanism and compassion. Right. They were yearning for a better world, for a more just society.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And Lenin was able to exploit that yearning.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. He used their hope and their idealism to build a system based on fear and control.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, it's a real cautionary tale.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's a reminder that revolutions, even those with the most noble intentions, can easily go astray when those in power become intoxicated by their own authority and begin to prioritize control over freedom.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Makes you wonder if there's something inherent in the dynamics of power that just leads to this kind of corruption, regardless of the ideology.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's a question that's haunted revolutionaries and thinkers for centuries.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. Can you really achieve a just and equitable society through force and coercion? Do those methods inevitably undermine the very ideals that they claim to uphold?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. How do we how do we get from A to B?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's something to think about, and it's something that we'll continue to grapple with as we delve deeper into Maximoff's analysis and explore the long-term consequences of Lenin's choices.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, it's like there's this inherent tension between these lofty ideals and the greedy reality of actually getting power and then holding on to it.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That is the question. And that's where Maximoff's analysis of Lenin's political Marxism comes in. And Maximoff, you know, makes a pretty bold claim. He actually calls the Communist Manifesto a reactionary document.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You start with these brand visions, but then you've got to make compromises. You've got to make these tough choices.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You've got to get your hands dirty.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, and all of a sudden you find yourself drifting away from those goals.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Right. And and what's really interesting is that Lenin himself seemed to recognize this tension. You know, Maximoff quotes a passage where Lenin talks about the necessity of a strong centralized government, especially once the state becomes, you know, in his words, proletarian.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So he's saying that even after the workers have control, they still need a strong state.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Right, a strong centralized state.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That seems to contradict everything he was talking about before the revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It does seem contradictory, and that's precisely what Maximoff is getting at. He argues that Lenin's ultimate goal wasn't truly about liberating the working class or creating a genuinely equitable society. It was about establishing a new form of state power, one that was controlled by the Bolsheviks. Right. And used to shape society according to their ideology.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So in a way, it wasn't really freedom for all.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And this is where, you know, that concept of political Marxism that we talked about before really comes back into focus. Maximoff sees this ideology as inherently authoritarian, as fixated on, you know, capturing and wielding state power as the primary means of achieving its ends.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So almost like the ends justify the means.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. And even if it means, you know, compromising those initial promises of freedom and individual liberty.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's like the revolution was just a way to get to that ultimate goal of having the party elite in control.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That's right. And it really challenges us to to kind of think critically.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
About how these revolutionary movements evolve. You know, we often romanticize these things. Oh, yeah. You know, as these spontaneous uprisings of the people are all coming together. Right. But Maximoff is suggesting that they can also be very carefully orchestrated by individuals.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
With very specific agendas, agendas that might not actually align with the desires of the people that they claim to represent.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Wow. That is bold because it's kind of the foundation of communist ideology, isn't it?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So what does this all mean for us today? I mean, this all happened a long time ago.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
The world is a very different place.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Oh, very cool.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
saying that a joke, which is hilarious in one language, can fall totally flat in another. Poetry is the same way. It relies so much on the nuances of language, the music of the words, and the cultural context. A literal translation could lose all the magic.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
He talks about that in the preface to specifically the concept of obsessive love, which is often a celebrated theme in Urdu poetry, but might not resonate the same way with a Western audience. Right. It really highlights the complexities of bringing Elia's work to a new audience.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Absolutely. Speaking of bridges, Carter makes this fascinating choice in his approach to translation. He draws inspiration from Charles Bukowski.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yes.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It is, but when you think about it, there are some similarities between Bukowski and Ilya. Both delve into those raw, often uncomfortable emotions like disillusionment, existential angst, the struggles of everyday life.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
That's what Carther is banking on, using Bukowski's style as a framework to make Elia's poetry accessible to English readers. It's this idea of finding a familiar point of entry into a world that might otherwise feel very foreign.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah, that's exciting. This new book is the first ever published collection of his poems translated into English. Oh, wow. It's called John Elias Poems, an English translation. And we've got excerpts to dive into.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Exactly. It's about prioritizing emotional resonance over strict literal accuracy. And it really works. When you read these translations, you feel the rawness, the vulnerability, the emotional punch that Elie is known for.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Well, the book has over 80 poems and they cover a huge range of emotions and experiences. There's heartbreak, of course, and the complexities of love, but also the struggle with self disillusionment with society and this really fascinating exploration of the city as a character.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's like the city, particularly Karachi, where Ilya lived, becomes this backdrop, almost this mirror, reflecting his internal struggles. He talks about the isolation and the pressures and the search for meaning in this chaotic urban environment.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Absolutely.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
There's this raw honesty of vulnerability that just permeates everything he writes. Okay. He doesn't shy away from difficult emotions, from existential questions. And it's all delivered with this stark, almost conversational style. It's like he's speaking directly to you, sharing his most intimate thoughts.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
From what I've read, his choice of Bukowski as a stylistic influence really seems to have paid off. He's managed to recreate that same feeling of raw honesty, that directness that makes Ilya's poetry so powerful.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Always.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Including the translator's preface, which gives us like a really fascinating look into the whole process.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
There's this one from the poem, Was It Always This Bitter, where he writes, I don't trust you anymore. Is that because you finally love me? Wow. It's this incredible reversal of expectations, making you question the very nature of love and trust.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Exactly. And it's delivered with this stark simplicity that just makes it so powerful. Another line that struck me was from the poem Selling Smoke. He writes, What else was left to trade? I sold off the dreams in my eyes.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's this incredibly poignant image of loss, and it resonates on so many levels. Makes you think about the compromises we all make, the dreams we sometimes have to let go of.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Absolutely. His poetry isn't all doom and gloom. For instance, there's a beautiful love poem called Good Evening, Good Night.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
He writes, you bloom in my verses, spilling color, shedding petals, your spring never fades.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's filled with this sensual imagery, this sense of longing and enduring love that's really quite beautiful.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
And it's not just romantic love. There's beauty in the way he describes the world, even in its imperfections. Right. In the poem A Thought, he talks about how even in this ruined world, something remains something that makes the heart tremble.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
He's right. There's this sense of acceptance. Right. A recognition of the inherent struggles of being human like can actually feel quite reassuring. Yeah. It's like he's saying, look, life is messy and painful sometimes, but there's still beauty to be found even in the broken pieces.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Oh, yeah.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
That's a powerful one. Remember those opening lines?
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
The street kids toss stones, but even that means nothing. Dreams are just smoke and heads roll for nothing. Whoa. It just sets the tone right away. This feeling of futility, like even acts of rebellion are meaningless.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Wow.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's bleak for sure. But the way he articulates it, the imagery he uses, it's almost beautiful in its despair. Yeah. And you know what I find interesting?
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's not just personal despair. There's a strong sense of social commentary in that poem, too.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah, you might just find yourself heading over to Amazon to buy it.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yes.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Exactly. It's a critique of the systems that perpetuate suffering. Right. But it's not a passive critique. There's defiance in his voice. A refusal to simply accept things as they are. And I think that's what makes his work so compelling. It's both a lament and a call to action.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Oh, yeah.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Oh, that's a great one. He describes the city as this place where the mad ones still roam, but the streets don't care.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's like the city itself has become numb to the suffering and the madness within it.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's a city where dreams have been stifled, where even the darkest corners pretend they haven't witnessed the struggles of its people. Right. But even in that bleakness, there's a sense of resilience. It's like he's saying, even in this graveyard, life persists. We keep dreaming. We keep hoping, even when it feels like everything around us is crumbling.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah, so John Omnidia was a Pakistani poet who wrote in Urdu. He died in 2002, but his poetry continues to have this deep resonance with readers. He's known for this really raw and honest style that delves into the complexities of love and loss and the human condition.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
I know. It's so direct, so visceral.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Right.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Exactly.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Uh-huh.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's brutal, isn't it? There's a raw honesty there that's almost hypnotic. He doesn't shy away from the ugly parts of himself, the parts that hurt others. In doing so, he invites us to confront the darkness within ourselves.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
And that honesty is what makes his poetry so relatable.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
He lays his heart bare on the page, and in doing so, he gives us permission to do the same.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
He shows us that it's okay to be vulnerable, to admit our flaws, to share our pain.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
And that's what's so comforting about his work. And when it's dealing with difficult, painful emotions, he reminds us that we're not alone in our struggle.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Okay.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Right.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Essentially, it's a translation approach that prioritizes conveying the overall meaning and emotional impact of the original text over a strictly literal word for word translation. Especially with poetry, you can't just swap out words. Yeah. You have to capture the feeling, the rhythm, the soul of the poem.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's a tightrope walk for sure. A good translator has to be fluent in both languages, but also deeply attuned to the cultural nuances and literary traditions of both the source and target languages. Okay. They have to be able to make those tough choices, sometimes sacrificing literal accuracy to preserve the emotional essence of the poem.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
I agree.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
He really has, and the fact that this is the first ever published collection of Elia's work in English makes it even more special. It's like opening a door to a whole new world of poetic expression, introducing this unique voice to a WIRE audience. For anyone who's been curious about John Elia, this is the perfect opportunity to dive in.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
You know, and even if you're not familiar with Urdu poetry, this translation offers a fascinating perspective on the art of translation itself. Okay. It shows how a skilled translator can act as a bridge between cultures. bringing the beauty and power of language to a wider audience.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
And for those already familiar with Ilya's work, this translation provides a whole new way to experience his poetry.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Exactly. And that's the magic of translation at its best, expanding all horizons, connecting with different cultures and experiencing the world through the eyes of others. And in the case of John Delia, it's about encountering a poetic voice that is both deeply personal and universally resonant.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It really speaks to the timelessness of his themes.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
The heartbreak, the longing, the search for meaning in a world that often feels chaotic and absurd. Those are emotions that transcend time and place.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It does.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah, that's what makes him so relatable. He's not afraid to show his scars, to admit his flaws. It's like he's saying, look, life is tough. We all mess up. We all hurt. But we're not alone in this.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Exactly. And he does it with this incredible poetic skill.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Weaving together language and imagery in a way that just gets under your skin. His words leaner in your mind long after you finished reading.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
Yeah.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
He doesn't offer easy answers or platitudes, but he does offer a kind of solace. It's the solace of shared experience, of knowing that someone else understands the depths of your pain, your joy, your longing.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's a chance to step outside of your comfort zone, to explore a different culture, a different way of seeing the world. And who knows, you might just discover something about yourself in the process.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's available right now on Amazon. Just search for John Elia's poems, an English translation by Mason Carter. You won't regret taking the plunge.
Class with Mason
Jaun Elia’s Poems: An English Translation : A Window into the Mind of Urdu’s Most Iconic Poet
It's a journey worth taking a journey into the heart and mind of a poet who continues to captivate readers generations later.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
All right. So you want to look into how to build socialism from below. And you've given us a really interesting mix of stuff to dig into here.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's about cultivating those values of cooperation, solidarity, compassion, even in our everyday interactions.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Yeah, because at the end of the day, the world we create starts with the choices we make each day.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
How we treat each other, how we consume, how we engage with our community.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So as we wrap up this deep dive, I want to leave you, our listener, with this question.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
If you were to start building socialism from below in your own community, what would your first step be?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And who knows, your step might inspire others to follow, creating a ripple that could change the world.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's a really interesting concept. Yeah. He's saying that every time we engage in activity purely for the love of it, for the joy of creating something or helping someone. Yeah. We're kind of subtly pushing back against that logic of capitalism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You're not doing it for some external reward. Right. You're doing it for the intrinsic satisfaction of the activity itself.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And that's like a powerful act of defiance. Yeah. In a world that's increasingly dominated by market forces.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Exactly. And your sources offer some really good concrete examples of how this is already happening. Things like worker cooperatives, community land trusts.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's like they're creating these pockets of socialism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
These little glimpses of what a different kind of society could look like.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. So if we're talking about building socialism from below, it can't just be about economics.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So groups like Cooperation Jackson, which specifically focuses on empowering black working class communities. They're saying that building socialism from below needs to start by addressing those systemic inequalities.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's not just about building a better future. It's about reckoning with the past and addressing the injustices that continue to shape our present.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So how do they actually go about doing this? Well, what are some of the strategies they use?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's not about just waiting for some big revolution. Right. You know, it's like, what can we do right now? Yeah. Right where we are.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's about changing the way we do things, changing the way we relate to each other.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. Direct democracy from ancient Greece to modern day movements. There's this idea of people coming together face to face to make decisions collectively without relying on representatives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
But let's be real. Isn't that incredibly challenging to implement on a large scale?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Especially in today's complex societies. Sure. How do you get millions of people to participate in every single decision?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So things like neighborhood assemblies, worker councils, community based decision making processes. Exactly.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's not about throwing out everything and starting from scratch. Right. It's about finding ways to introduce these more democratic practices into our existing structures and gradually expand their reach.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
That's been nagging at me too. It seems like a lot of the examples we've been talking about are very localized. But how do we scale that up to create systemic change?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, so less about top down control, more about people power.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I mean, are we talking about getting rid of wages altogether?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's like planting the seeds of a new economy right within the old one.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And that reminds me we are about to dive into some real world examples. Yes. Of these cracks in capitalism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Before we pause. Mm hmm. Your source mentioned things like community gardens, time banks, even open source technology and the sharing economy.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, so let's break these down a little bit. OK. Community gardens. I get that.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You know, growing your own food, being sustainable, building community.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It fits right in with this whole from below idea.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Like a mini socialist society in action. Yeah. Working together, sharing the rewards.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK. So it's basically the idea that the way we organize and make decisions like within our movements should reflect the kind of society we actually want to create.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
With climate change and all the uncertainty in the world.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So instead of paying someone to fix my leaky faucet.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I could trade them like an hour of my questionable guitar skill.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's a way of recognizing those essential jobs that often don't get paid enough.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Like the care work that women usually end up doing.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Okay. This is all starting to sound pretty utopian. I mean, could it really work on a large scale?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, let's tackle the tricky one. Open source tech and the sharing economy.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I mean, companies like Uber and Airbnb. Right. They're all about profit.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So a community owned ride sharing platform that's nonprofit is totally different from a corporation like Uber that's exploiting its workers and driving inequality.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Making technology free and modifiable. So communities can build their own platforms instead of relying on corporations.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's about creating a more decentralized democratic society.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Where people have more control over their own lives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's a shift from this like me first mentality to one of cooperation and understanding that we're all connected.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's like that quote from The Ecology of Freedom.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
The most distant journey begins with a single step.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Precisely. It's about building the world we want to see one step at a time. And it's not just about formal organizations. It's about fostering a culture of mutual aid, cooperation, respect in all aspects of our lives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
We've got some theory. We've got some real world examples.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Before we get lost in these big ideas, let's make sure we've got the key takeaways down.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
We talk about how even doing things we love outside of the market can be a form of resistance. And we looked at real world examples like community gardens, time banks, open source tech.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. We've talked about big ideas, but what are the actual steps you can take starting today? I think that's what our listener really wants to know. OK, so we've explored all these inspiring ideas.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
But like, I think our listeners ready for some action.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
What can they actually do to start building socialism from below?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's about finding those little cracks in the system.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And seeing how you can fill them with something better.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You know, one of your sources, Jackson Rising Redux, really stressed the power of connecting with like-minded people. It's about finding those individuals and groups who are already working towards these goals.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's not about blindly supporting any politician who calls himself a socialist.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Are they truly working to empower communities and redistribute power?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. It's about finding ways to influence policy at the local level, pushing for things that create space for these alternative systems to thrive.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Exactly. It's about using whatever tools you have to create a more fertile ground for socialism from below to take root.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Get ready to dive deep into a topic most people think they know, but really probably don't.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then this subsequent descent into terror under the Bolsheviks.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's essential to remember that this legacy of terror continues to haunt Russia to this day.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Run deep, shaping the country's political culture and their relationship with the world.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's a sobering reminder of the dangers of unchecked power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. As we move into the final part of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
The world today. Man, this has been quite a journey.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You know, from Lenin's promises of freedom to the brutal realities of his rule.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then this horrifying expansion of terror under Stalin.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It really is. And I think it's clear, you know, that the seeds of tyranny were sown very early on.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. It's a stark reminder that revolutions, even those launched with the noblest intentions, can be corrupted by power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So as we wrap up this deep dive, it's important to kind of shift our focus from the past to the present.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. Because understanding how terror takes root, how it spreads, how it infects even the most idealistic movements, that's essential to preventing its recurrence.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So, I mean, one of the, I guess, the most important lessons here is this danger of unchecked power, right?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. We're going to go way beyond, you know, the storming of the Winter Palace.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We need to look at Lenin. Right. Lenin. Yeah. His ideology, his approach to revolution. Because initially he was presenting himself as this champion of democracy and freedom.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Both Lenin and Stalin were able to consolidate their authority because there were no effective checks and balances in place.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Even in the context of, you know, a revolution that's supposed to be championing the rights of the working class.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's right. That's right. And while it's impossible to create perfect systems of governance, I think we can and must advocate for structures that promote transparency, accountability, and the rule of law.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So it's about supporting the institutions that uphold these values.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Like a willingness to recognize those warning signs.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. The warning signs of authoritarianism. Right. And a willingness to speak out against injustice.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's got to be tough, you know, sometimes to do that.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And we've seen how easily fear can take hold.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So I think courage is a crucial antidote. Yes. To that fear.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And courage isn't always about, you know. Right. Grand gestures of defiance. Right. Yeah. It's about the everyday choices we make. OK. It's about being willing to question authority. Yeah. To challenge the status quo, to speak truth to power, even in small ways.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And that means being critical of all forms of power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's right. We have to be willing to challenge our own assumptions.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And listen to perspectives that are different.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's easy to fall into that trap of thinking that our side is inherently good and their side is inherently bad.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, he does. He demonstrates very powerfully how the lines between good and evil, between liberator and oppressor, can be blurred very easily when power goes unchecked.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's important to remember that, you know, Lenin truly believed he was acting in the best interests.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But his unwavering conviction. Right. His refusal to tolerate any dissent. Right. Ultimately led him down this path of just unimaginable brutality.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's this cautionary tale about, you know, the seductive nature of power and the dangers of ideological rigidity.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's not just about protecting individual rights. Right. It's about ensuring that we can hold power accountable and that we can challenge dangerous ideologies before they take root and metastasize.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Which is kind of wild. Like what was that? Did he have a change of heart?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And we see this throughout history and even in the world today. Right. Governments, powerful interests.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Trying to control the narrative, to suppress dissent, to manipulate public opinion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, I mean, not really a change of heart when he learned that the provisional government had abolished the death penalty. He was furious. Really? Yeah. As Trotsky recounts in his memoirs, Lenin believed that executions were an indispensable tool for consolidating power and maintaining order.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And it's scary to think that with the rise of social media, it's easier than ever to spread propaganda and disinformation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And these are incredibly powerful tools for communication. But they can also be used for manipulation and control.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So I think media literacy is more important now than ever before.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We really got to be able to critically evaluate the information we consume.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's that old saying, don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But these days, it's not just the Internet. It's everywhere. It's everywhere, you know. We're bombarded with information from all sides and we have to sift through the noise.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's much easier to just passively consume information.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
whatever's in front of us to accept the dominant narrative or question.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But this deep dive has shown us that kind of apathy and complacency can have dangerous consequences. So what's the antidote to this apathy?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, I think for one, we can support organizations that are fighting for human rights and democratic values. We can educate ourselves about the issues.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Engage in thoughtful discussions. Hold our elected officials accountable.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, and I think it's important to remember that even individual actions can make a difference.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes, they can. Speaking up against injustice, challenging harmful narratives, having difficult conversations with friends and family members. These are all acts of courage.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, and you never know they might have this ripple effect.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And I think it's also important to never underestimate the power of storytelling. Sharing these stories of those who have suffered under tyranny, fought for freedom, I think can connect with this history on a human level.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
By continuing to fight for a more just and equitable world.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
This book, The Guillotine at Work, it's not just a chronicle of terror. It's also this testament to the resilience of the human spirit.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it reminds us that even in the darkest of times, there is always hope.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Let's keep this conversation going. Yeah, let's keep it going. Let's learn from the past, stay engaged in the present, and work together to create a future where all forms of tyranny, both the wet and the dry guillotine, are relegated to the history books.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, thank you for joining us on this deep dive into the Russian revelation. Yes. We hope it's inspired you to think critically about the world around you.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And to really embrace your own role in shaping a more just and equitable future.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Exact one. Really get down into the weeds of a darker, more complex story of how these revolutionary ideals get twisted into these like instruments of oppression.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Not at all. Maximoff cites official Bolshevik sources that reveal a horrifying number of executions under Lenin's rule.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Even conservative estimates are in the hundreds of thousands.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And he justified this bloodshed in the name of discipline and suppressing enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Mm-hmm. Precisely. Lenin was convinced of his own infallibility. Any opposition to the Bolshevik Party line, any deviation from his vision was a threat to the revolution itself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes, to root out and eliminate enemies of the people. That's what they call them, enemies of the people.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So who were the enemies of the people at first? I guess it was the bourgeoisie, right? The wealthy elite.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Which I guess is somewhat understandable given the time.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, but it quickly expanded as Maximoff documents.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it wasn't just the bourgeoisie anymore. It was political opponents like the Mensheviks.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So anyone who questioned his authority at all, regardless of their political affiliation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Who advocated for individual liberty and decentralized power. Right. Lenin hated that. Yeah. He saw that as a threat to his vision of a centralized authoritarian state.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And what's often overlooked is that it wasn't just like one event.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Just resisting the government's grain requisitions.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. They saw it as a threat to the Bolsheviks control over food distribution, which was essential for them to maintain power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And so they were demonized, dehumanized, crushed. And Max Moff really details the brutality.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Employed to silence any dissent. Nope. Shooting hostages.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But it was a series of power struggles and shifts in ideology, each more brutal than the last.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
I mean, this was this was the reality, the so-called dictatorship of the proletariat.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then there's this whole other dimension of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. That Maximoff refers to as this dry guillotine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So this is where we see Lennon's true genius. Yes. for control, right? The Dry Guillotine wasn't about brute force. It was about a more insidious form of oppression. The control of minds through fear and manipulation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like something out of a dystopian novel or something.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It does, doesn't it? But this was the reality in Russia under Lenin. Really? Think about it this way. The wet guillotine, right? Yeah. Eliminated physical opponents. Yeah. But the dry guillotine sought to eliminate opposition itself by controlling what people could think.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And that's where our source material comes in for this deep dive at work. Yeah. 20 years of terror in Russia.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, one of the primary tools was censorship. Independent media was shut down. Anything deemed harmful was destroyed. Libraries were purged of anything that didn't align with the Bolshevik ideology.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So they were really trying to control the flow of information?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Absolutely. They wanted to create a monopoly on truth.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. They encouraged people to inform on each other, which created an atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia where even family members couldn't trust one another.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like turning... Turning people against each other. Yeah.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. And they also used propaganda extensively, right?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. Propaganda was key. It was a weapon in their arsenal to glorify Lenin, to demonize his opponents and create this cult of personality around him. Wow. It was everywhere in schools, workplaces, art, literature, shaping people's perceptions and molding their thoughts.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like they were infiltrating every aspect of life. They were. You couldn't escape it.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's like they wanted to control not just your actions. That's right. But your mind.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And Maximoff wasn't just like some historian, you know, kind of watching this all from afar.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's a good way to put it. They aim to create a society where obedience wasn't just enforced, but internalized.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So even if you disagreed with the regime, you'd be too afraid to speak out.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So this dry guillotine was in a way even more effective than the wet guillotine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. Way more effective. Because it created this self-perpetuating cycle of fear and self-censorship.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You didn't need the Checo to come knocking at your door. You were already censoring yourself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. The Russian Revolution, but not the one you might see in like a textbook or something.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And paranoia. But wasn't this terror just confined to like those outside the party?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, that's where things get even more disturbing.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Because Lenin wasn't content with just silencing dissent outside the party. Right. He was just as ruthless in purging anyone who dared to question his authority.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. Maximoff shows how Lenin systematically sidelined, expelled or exiled prominent figures like Tomsky and Miasnikov, who had the audacity to disagree with him.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Living through this whole thing, you know, witnessing firsthand how the Bolsheviks led by Lenin transformed this promise of liberation into a reign of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it wasn't just about eliminating external enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. Crushing any potential challenge to that power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Wow. And this is important to remember because this internal purge, this atmosphere of suspicion and fear within the party.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Okay. And that's where we're going to pick up in part two of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We'll examine how Stalin took this blueprint that Lenin laid out and amplified it to a horrifying scale.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And how the terror became like this defining feature of Soviet life.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Welcome back. As we kind of dig deeper into Maximoff's book, you really see how Stalin's reign of terror, it wasn't like a sudden departure from Lenin, you know, it was more of a continuation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Down a dark path, exactly. And this period between Lenin's death in 1924 and Stalin's complete consolidation of power is really crucial, I think, to understanding how it evolved.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. You know, I would assume that with Lannan gone, there might have been some sort of like reprieve.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
No, not even close. In fact, you could argue that the dry guillotine, the system of psychological manipulation, social control that we talked about, it became even more refined and systematic during this time. Wow. Why is that? Well, I mean, remember, Russia is in a state of immense turmoil after the Civil War. Right. The economy's in shambles. There's widespread famine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And his account is so striking because he uses official Bolshevik documents and eyewitness accounts to weave a narrative that goes beyond, you know, just the physical execution.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
People are grappling with the uncertainty of a new political order.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, he was a master manipulator. He positioned himself as the only one strong enough to restore order. The only one capable of defending the revolution from its enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And just like under Lenin, These enemies seem to like multiply at an alarming rate.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. It was a chilling echo of what we saw before.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Anyone who deviated even slightly from the party line was suspect.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But Stalin took it a step further. Right. He wasn't content with just silencing dissent. Right. He wanted to control people's very thoughts.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's terrifying. Like, how do you do that? What were the tools?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, censorship became even more pervasive and ruthless. Independent media was completely eradicated. Wow. Any publications deemed even remotely critical were destroyed. Libraries were purged of anything that didn't align with the official ideology.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
They were. They understood the power of information and they were determined to monopolize it.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it went beyond just controlling information. Right. They actively shaped people's worldview through propaganda.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's like if the party said the sky was green, you better agree.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Very dire. This is where the Chica, now renamed the OGPU, became Stalin's primary instrument of terror. They carried out mass arrests, deportations, and executions with a chilling efficiency.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, no, no, no. This wasn't random violence. This was calculated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You know, he went after specific groups. Okay. Peasants who resisted collectivization, religious leaders who challenged his authority, intellectuals who dared to think independently, and even members of the Communist Party itself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
As opposed to the wet guillotine. Right. Wow. This is the systematic crushing of dissent through exile, censorship and psychological manipulation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wait, party members too? I thought they were supposed to be like the most loyal supporters of the regime.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Stalin was paranoid to the core. Yeah. He saw enemies everywhere.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Anyone who showed even a hint of independence. Right. Anyone who might potentially challenge his authority had to be eliminated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Where millions were arrested, executed, sent to labor camps.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
The Great Purge was the terrifying apex of Stalin's reign of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's hard to believe that this all happened under the banner of socialism.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Like, how could something that started with such noble intentions go so wrong?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's the question that haunts Maximoff throughout his book. He argues that the seeds of this terror were present in the very ideology of Bolshevism, you know, in its belief in the absolute power of the state and the need to crush all opposition.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
In a way, Stalin was just taking Lenin's ideas to their logical conclusion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
In a sense, yes. But you also have to remember that Stalin was a ruthlessly ambitious and cunning individual who exploited those ideas to serve his own lust for power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So was there any like organized opposition to Stalin? I mean, were there any like groups or individuals who dared to resist?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
There were there were pockets of resistance, but they were brutally and swiftly suppressed. Right. Maximoff highlights how even within the Communist Party, there were those who bravely spoke out against the excesses of the regime.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Trotsky. Yeah. He vehemently opposed Stalin's rise to power. Right. And criticized the authoritarian direction the Soviet Union was taking.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's fascinating. This this contrast between the initial February revolution, which was relatively bloodless.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, he was exiled from the Soviet Union. And then in 1940, he was assassinated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. It's like this system where fear was the only acceptable emotion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And that fear extended far beyond the borders of the Soviet Union. The purges and show trials, they sent shockwaves through the international communist movement. A lot of people were disillusioned, questioning the very ideals they once believed in.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
I can't even imagine like the level of paranoia and distrust.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It did. Maximoff describes the society where everyone was walking on eggshells, constantly afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
By a neighbor, a colleague. Right. A family member even.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It was a world where trust had been completely eroded.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So you're thinking about picking up The Grammar Whisperer by Mason Carter.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like having a crystal ball that shows you what you'll be doing next week at 5 p.m.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He also explains how we can use it for polite or indirect questions about the future, assumptions about the present or future, and even planned or expected future events.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Wow. It's amazing how many different ways we can talk about the future. It seems like there's a tense for every possible scenario.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
There really is. And we haven't even touched on the perfect tenses yet.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Right. Those are the ones that always trip me up. How does Carter explain those?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He starts in Chapter 24 with the present perfect tense, which he calls the detective of tenses because it's always connecting the past to the present.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's the tense of I have lived in this city for 10 years or she has worked at the same company since 2015.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Yes. Chapter three dives right into that. It tackles the myth of never starting a sentence with a conjunction like and or but. It turns out you totally can. He debunks this by showing examples from famous authors who break this so-called rule all the time.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Actions that started in the past and are still going on.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He also points out that we use it for actions completed at an unspecified time in the past. Life experiences and actions that happened recently but have a present effect.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like the tense that bridges the gap between then and now.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Okay. I'm ready for the past perfect tense. How does he tackle that one? In chapter 25, he introduces the past perfect tense as the time traveling tense. It allows us to talk about a past action that happened before another past action.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's like a flashback within a flashback, going deeper into the past.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Precisely. He explains how we use it to show cause and effect in the past.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Add emphasis with words like already, just, and never, and even in reported speech when retelling past events.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's the tense of looking back at what happened before something else happened. It's like piecing together a historical timeline.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
And finally, we reach the pinnacle of time-traveling tenses, the future perfect, covered in Chapter 26.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Okay, this one sounds complicated. How does Carter break it down?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He describes it as the tense that lets you claim achievements before they even happen. It's like pre-celebrating your future success.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's a tense of, by this time next year, I will have graduated. Or by the time you read this, I will have finished writing the book.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He explains how we use it for actions that will be completed before a specific time in the future. Actions that will be finished before another future action. And even making predictions about completed events.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like fast-forwarding to the future and looking back at what you will have accomplished. What a journey through time. We've covered all the major tenses, but is there anything else he covers in this section on tenses?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Yes. He wraps up this section with a chapter on the often misunderstood passive voice.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Ah, the passive voice. It gets a bad rap. Does he defend it at all?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. He explains that passive voice isn't inherently bad. It's all about using it strategically. He points out that it's useful when the action is more important than the doer or when the doer is unknown.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So instead of saying the dog bit the boy, you might say the boy is bitten by the dog if the focus is on the boy and what happened to him.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He provides clear examples and even points out when passive voice can be effective despite its bad reputation.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like he's saying, don't be afraid of the passive voice. Just use it wisely.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. And that's really the overall message of the grammar whisperer. Yeah. Don't be afraid of grammar. Right. Embrace it. Have fun with it.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Well said. Based on all the excerpts we've explored, the Grammar Whisperer truly lives up to its promise of making grammar fun and accessible. It's comprehensive, engaging, and surprisingly hilarious.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
The thing that immediately jumped out to me was how it presents itself as an ancient manuscript discovered in Tutankhamen's tomb.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
I completely agree. It's not just a grammar guide. It's a celebration of language.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
If you're looking for a grammar book that won't put you to sleep and will actually help you improve your writing, I highly recommend checking out The Grammar Whisperer. You can find it on Amazon in both paperback and Kindle format. And that brings us to the end of our deep dives into The Grammar Whisperer.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's so liberating. It's like being told you can wear white after Labor Day. So it seems like this book encourages you to be a bit more adventurous with your writing.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
We hope you enjoyed exploring this unique and engaging guide to the English language with us. What are some other books or resources that have helped you improve your writing? Share your favorites in the comments below.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Absolutely. He wants you to use language effectively and expressively, not be bound by outdated rules. And speaking of expression, Chapter 4 is a punctuation guide, which could be incredibly boring, but he manages to make it fun.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Okay, how does he make punctuation fun? Give me an example.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He brilliantly illustrates the importance of the comma with this classic, Let's eat grandma versus let's eat grandma.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Oh, my goodness. The difference a comma makes. That's a great example of how humor can make a point really stick. Does this book go beyond the basics, though? Does it cover more complex topics as well?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It definitely does. Chapter five tackles common English mistakes, again with a relatable and humorous approach. Then chapter six dives into vocabulary building, focusing on prefixes and suffixes.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Prefixes and suffixes. That sounds a bit dry. How does he liven that up?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He compares prefixes to spellcasters that change the meaning of a word and suffixes to sidekicks that modify its form.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Okay. That's actually a pretty clever way to think about it. It makes it so much easier to understand how they work.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. It's those little touches of humor and creativity that make this book stand out. Right. And you know what else? He doesn't just explain these concepts. He gives you examples of how to apply them.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Okay. That's pretty clever. So right off the bat, it seems like the author is trying to make grammar fun.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's practical, too. It seems like he's trying to give readers the tools to actually improve their writing, not just memorize a bunch of rules. What about sentence structure? Does a book cover that?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Yes. Chapter seven breaks down different sentence structures, simple, compound and complex, using relatable examples and even challenges. It even goes into conditional sentences, which can be tricky.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's helpful. I know a lot of people struggle with sentence structure. It'd be hard to know how to make your writing flow well without sounding repetitive.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's another thing I appreciate about this book. Chapter 8 is all about avoiding monotony in your writing.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He talks about varying sentence length, using strong verbs, and injecting personality.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It sounds like the grammar whisperer covers a lot of ground. We've already touched on puns, grammar myths, punctuation, vocabulary, and sentence structure.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
And we're just getting started. The book also delves into parallel structure, the art of crafting a well-structured paragraph, and so much more.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
This is fascinating. It sounds like the Grammar Whisperer might be the perfect guide for anyone who wants to improve their writing, regardless of their skill level.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
I think so too. It's comprehensive, engaging, and surprisingly funny.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It even goes further with fake praise from historical figures like Shakespeare and Einstein.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
We'll continue exploring what the Grammar Whisperer has to offer in the next part of our deep dive.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
But for now, if you're intrigued by what you've heard so far and want to improve your writing, you can check it out on Amazon. It's available in both paperback and Kindle format.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Cool. Now, even the best writers make mistakes right.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's where Chapter 10 comes in. Providing a toolkit for catching those pesky errors before they make it into your final draft.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like having a grammar safety net. What kind of tools does he provide?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Well, he starts by emphasizing the importance of reading your work aloud. It's amazing how many errors our brains just skip over when we read silently.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Oh, I'm so guilty of it. Sometimes I'll catch like a glaring error just by reading my work out loud. It's like my ears pick up on what my eyes miss.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He also suggests using what he calls the backward trick, which involves reading your work in reverse, sentence by sentence. It forces you to slow down and focus on each individual sentence, making it easier to spot those hidden mistakes.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's a really unique and engaging way to present what could otherwise be a pretty dry subject.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's a really interesting technique. It's like looking at a picture upside down. You notice things you wouldn't have seen otherwise. Does he have any other error catching tricks up his sleeve?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. For those recurring errors that we all have, he suggests using the find and replace function. Like if you constantly mix up its and its, you can search for those words specifically and double check every usage.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's such a simple but effective tip. I'm definitely going to try that. It's like having a grammar detective on call. Does he talk about using online grammar tools at all?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. He acknowledges the role of tools like Grammarly.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
But he also reminds us not to rely on them blindly. They can be helpful for catching obvious errors, but they don't always understand the nuances of language.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Right. They're not a substitute for a human's critical eye. So it seems like he encourages like a multi-pronged approach to error detection. Read aloud, read backward, use find and replace, and get a second opinion from a human. That's pretty comprehensive.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Like who wouldn't want to learn grammar from a book Shakespeare supposedly endorsed? Did any of these ancient endorsements particularly tickle your funny bone?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It is. And it shows that he really understands the challenges writers face. He wants to equip you with all the tools you need to produce polished and error-free work.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's great. Now, one thing that can make writing really clunky is redundancy, using unnecessary words or phrases.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. Chapter 11 is all about avoiding redundancy, how to cut the fluff. He has this brilliant analogy where he compares redundant phrases to showing up at a party where you already know everyone and then introducing yourself again.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
I love that. It perfectly captures how awkward and unnecessary redundancy can be. Does he give any examples of common redundant phrases to avoid?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Oh, absolutely. He points out phrases like completely and utterly exhausted. When simply exhausted gets the point across, it's like adding extra cheese to an already cheesy pizza. Sometimes less is more.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So true. Does he give any particularly funny examples of redundancy?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. One of my favorites is, I honestly believe, without a doubt, that I'm the best at this. The fixed version. I believe I'm the best at this. Short, sweet, to the point.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's perfect. It really highlights how much we can streamline our writing by cutting out the fluff. So we've talked about sentences and avoiding redundancy. What about paragraphs? Does he offer any guidance on crafting effective paragraphs?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Yes. Chapter 12 breaks down the essential elements of a well-structured paragraph using a really engaging analogy. Okay. He compares a paragraph to a kingdom. The top book sentence is the ruler, the supporting sentences are the loyal subjects, and the concluding sentence is the strong fortress that holds everything together.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Okay, I really like that analogy. It makes paragraph structure so much easier to visualize. So the topic sentence sets the stage.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Want to know if it's worth a read? We've got excerpts from the preface and a bunch of chapters here.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Oh, absolutely. John Milton supposedly claimed that the grammar whisperer helped him avoid titling Paradise Lost as Paradise Lost.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
The supporting sentences provide the evidence and examples.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
And the concluding sentence wraps it all up neatly.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He also stresses the importance of unity and coherence within a paragraph. Every sentence should support the main idea and the sentences should flow logically, like a well-planned city.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like he's giving you a roadmap for crafting a killer paragraph. Does he give any tips on paragraph length?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. He suggests that around four to seven sentences is usually the sweet spot. But it obviously depends on the context.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's about finding that Goldilocks zone not too long, not too short.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That makes sense. He seems to have a knack for explaining these concepts in a way that's both clear and memorable. It's not just about following rules. It's about understanding the why behind them.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Right. He wants you to not only write correctly, but also write well. And that involves thinking about the reader's experience.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Speaking of the reader's experience, I know one thing that can make reading difficult is when you feel lost or confused about where the writer is going with their argument. Does the book address that at all?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It does. Chapter 16 is all about signposting, which is essentially using signals to guide the reader through the text.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
I've heard of signposting. It's like those helpful signs you see on a road trip that tell you what's coming up next, how far you have to go, and where you can stop for a break.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's a great analogy. He compares signposting to using clear signals on a road trip. Without them, you're likely to miss turns and end up somewhere you never intended to go.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's hilarious. I'm already starting to see why people might find this book enjoyable. It's not just a textbook, you know. It's got personality.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So signposting is all about providing those helpful cues that tell the reader what's coming next, how ideas connect, and where the argument is heading.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He breaks down different types of signposts, from those that announce the overall structure to those that connect ideas within and between paragraphs. He even discusses concluding signposts that wrap up a section and prepare the reader for the next one.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like he's giving you a masterclass in keeping your reader engaged and on track. Does he give any specific examples of signposting phrases?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. He provides lots of examples to show how signposts work in action. For example, to introduce a contrasting idea, he might use phrases like, on the other hand, or however. To add emphasis, he might use phrases like, more importantly, or above all.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's really helpful. It's like he's giving you a toolbox of phrases to guide your reader smoothly through your writing.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
And, you know, guiding the reader isn't just about using signposts. It's also about making sure your arguments are well supported. Chapter 17 dives into the concept of underpinning, which is essentially the backbone of any strong argument.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
You hit the nail on the head. It feels like Carter is having a conversation with you, not lecturing you.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Underpinning. That sounds pretty important. How does he explain it?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He compares underpinning to wearing a belt. Without it, things might just fall apart in the worst possible moment. It's about providing the support system for your ideas, ensuring that they stand firm and don't crumble under scrutiny.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's about making your arguments convincing and preventing your reader from questioning the validity of your claims.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. And he breaks down underpinning into different types.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
From evidence-based underpinning to logical underpinning and even theoretical underpinning.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's fascinating. Fascinating. It seems like he's really trying to help writers build a strong foundation for their arguments, no matter what kind of writing they're doing.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He is. And he uses humor to make these concepts engaging. Right. For example, when talking about evidence based underpinning, he says, if you make a claim, prove it or risk sounding like that uncle who swears he almost became an astronaut.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Chapter one dives into puns and wordplay. Okay. Which immediately sets a lighthearted tone.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's hilarious. And so true. Without evidence, your claims just float around like unfounded rumors. So it seems like he's encouraging writers to back up their claims with solid evidence.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He also talks about using stories to make your points stick. He calls it narrative underpinning.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
I love that. Stories are such a powerful way to connect with people and make your arguments more memorable. Does he give any examples of how stories can be used effectively in writing?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. He gives the example of JK Rowling's struggles to get Harry Potter published.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He argues that if she had given up, we'd live in a world without Hogwarts. And honestly, that's just a tragedy no one wants to contemplate.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's such a great example. It shows how a well-chosen story can make an abstract concept relatable and memorable. It's like he's saying, don't just tell me, show me.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. And that brings us to the end of part two of our deep dive into the grammar whisperer.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's not just about the rules. It's about appreciating the playful side of language.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
We've covered a lot of ground from error detection strategies to the importance of underpinning your arguments.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's amazing how much this book covers. We haven't even touched upon tenses yet, but I'm already feeling inspired to improve my own writing.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Me too. It's clear that Mason Carter has a passion for language and a gift for making grammar fun and accessible.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
I'm excited to delve into the wonderful world of English tenses in part three of our deep dive. But for now, if you're intrigued by what you've heard so far and want to improve your writing, you can check out The Grammar Whisperer on Amazon. It's available in both paperback and Kindle format. All right, we've explored a ton of great tips and tricks from the Grammar Whisperer so far.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
But now it's time to tackle a topic that often makes people cringe, English tenses.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Precisely. He uses puns like time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. They're funny, but they also make you think about the multiple meanings words can have.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Ah, yes, tenses. They can seem daunting, but Carter actually manages to make them surprisingly approachable. Really? And even entertaining.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Well, he starts in Chapter 18 with the present simple tense, which he describes as the calm, emotionless robot of tenses.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's the tense we use for things like the sun rises in the east.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. But as Carter points out, it's also surprisingly versatile. We use it for habits and routines, scheduled events, instructions, and even commentary.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like the multi-tool of tenses. It can do it all.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Precisely. Then chapter 19 takes us to the past simple tense, which Carter personifies as that friend who loves to reminisce about the good old days.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's the tense of, I ate an entire pizza last night.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
You got it. It's all about completed actions in the past.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Whether it's a single action, a series of actions, past habits, or even specific points in time.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like the storyteller of tenses bringing the past to life. What about the future? Does he give the future tense a fun personality too?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Of course. In chapter 20, he introduces the future simple tense as the fortune teller of tenses, always looking ahead.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's the tense of I will order pizza or she will be famous someday.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He explains how we use it for spontaneous decisions, predictions, promises, threats, offers, and even requests.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Wow. It really does cover a lot of ground. Now, what about actions happening right now?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
For that, we have the present continuous tense covered in chapter 21. Carter describes it as the live action tense, always on the move.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's the tense of I'm eating a burger and she is watching TV. Things that are happening in this very moment.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
That's right. And he points out that we also use it for temporary actions, future plans, annoying habits.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
I see. It's a sneaky way to get you thinking about grammar without even realizing it. Now, a lot of us were taught grammar rules that aren't actually rules at all. Does this book address any of those grammar myths?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like the tense of constant motion and ongoing development. Does he also cover the past version of the continuous tense?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
He does. Chapter 22 takes us back to the past with the past continuous tense, which he calls the middle of an action tense, like a paused movie scene.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
So it's the tense of I was eating pizza when the phone rang or she was studying at 2 a.m.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Exactly. He explains how we use it for actions happening at a specific time in the past. Too long actions happening simultaneously, interrupted actions and even setting the scene in a story.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
It's like the background music of the past setting the stage for the main event. Now, this might sound crazy, but is there a future version of the continuous tense?
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
There is. It might sound like time travel, but Chapter 23 introduces the future continuous tense. Carter describes it as the tense that sets up a scene in the future.
Class with Mason
Review of The Grammar Whisperer
Allowing us to talk about actions that will be happening at a specific time.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Ever feel like you've read the same self-help book a dozen times? Just a bunch of recycled platitudes.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Like what? Just give us an example.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Which makes me think about another one of his rules, the one about judging others. I always find that to be such a tricky subject because it's so easy to slip into judgment, even when we're trying not to.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So what's Carter's advice on how to approach those judgments with more compassion and understanding?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about extending grace to others, recognizing that we all have our own unique struggles and challenges.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Hmm. That's an interesting way to put it. So it's about trying to see the world through their eyes, to understand the context of their experiences before we pass judgment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about recognizing that our way isn't the only way and that diversity of thought and experience is what makes life so rich and interesting.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, interesting. What's his take on the whole social media phenomena?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about using those platforms to build bridges rather than walls to foster understanding rather than division.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
That's a really beautiful way to look at it. It's about using technology to cultivate compassion and connection, to create a sense of community in a world that can often feel isolating.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about choosing to move forward without being defined by the past or the actions of others.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, wow. That's powerful. It's a reminder to approach those relationships with tenderness and understanding, especially as our loved ones enter their twilight years.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about honoring the wisdom and experience they've accumulated over a lifetime while also extending grace and patience as they navigate the challenges of aging.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
He's inviting us to engage in that ongoing conversation about what it means to be human with all its complexities and contradictions.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
On that note, to our amazing listeners, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Which of Carter's rules resonated most with you? How are you putting these ideas into practice in your own lives? Keep those conversations going, keep diving deep, and we'll be back next time with another thought-provoking episode. Until then, be well.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
That's powerful. It's not about condoning what happened, but about reclaiming your own emotional well-being.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay. I'm intrigued. How does he redefine courage? Isn't it about facing your fears?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's that whole take the log out of your own eye idea, right? It's about acknowledging that we're all works in progress and none of us has it all figured out.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Tell me about it. Nobody actually enjoys being criticized, even if it's meant to be helpful. So what's Carter's advice on handling criticism gracefully? Both when we're on the receiving end and when we need to give it to someone else.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like that Maya Angelou quote, people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. So even when we're offering constructive criticism, it's got to come from a place of compassion, not judgment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Whoa, that stops you in your tracks, doesn't it? It makes you realize how much our experiences shape how we see the world.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about bridging that gap between us and them, recognizing that we're all part of this big, messy, beautiful human tapestry.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Talk about an eclectic mix. So who is this Mason Carter? Fill us in.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Interesting. So it's like, don't wait for someone else to point out your flaws. Be proactive about identifying areas where you can improve.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about taking ownership of our own journeys, right? Not relying on others to validate us or tell us who we are.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
OK, humility. I feel like that word gets tossed around a lot these days. But what does it actually mean in this context?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about embracing the possibility that other people might have something valuable to teach us, even if we don't always agree with them.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Love and selflessness. Those sound like pretty lofty ideals. How does he connect those dots?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And he's not just talking about romantic love here, right? This applies to our relationships with our friends, our families, our communities.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like that ripple effect. When we act from a place of love and compassion, it creates these positive waves that extend outward, impacting not only the people we interact with directly, but also those we interact with, and so on.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Prefiguration. Now there's a word you don't hear every day. What does that even mean?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay, so we've got Gothic lit and socialism. Those don't usually go together, do they? How does that work?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
OK, I'm starting to see how this all fits together. So it's not enough to just talk the talk. We have to walk the walk. Our actions have to be in alignment with the values we espouse.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about being the change. Which makes me think about something else Carter talks about. Anger. Because let's face it, even with the best intentions, we all get angry sometimes as a normal human emotion. But it can also be incredibly destructive if we don't know how to handle it constructively. So what's Carter's take on anger management?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, I know that voice all too well. It's like the master of rationalization, always ready with a reason why it's OK for me to unleash my fury on the world.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about taking a step back, taking a few deep breaths and choosing a different response, even if it's difficult in the moment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Which is often easier said than done, especially when we feel like we've been wronged.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about breaking free from that cycle of reactivity and choosing a more conscious, compassionate response.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Apologies. Those can be tough. Sometimes it feels like swallowing our pride. What's Carter's take on that?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about recognizing that we've hurt someone, even if it wasn't intentional, and taking responsibility for our part in this situation.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about creating a space where we can be vulnerable with each other, where we can mess up and be forgiven, where we can learn and grow together.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like he's embracing the duality of human nature.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, education. Always a hot topic. What's Carter's take on the current state of our education system?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about moving away from that rote memorization, that teaching to the test mentality and fostering a love of learning for its own sake.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about empowering them to think critically, to question assumptions, to challenge the status quo.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
The good, the bad, the beautiful, the messy.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And he uses some pretty interesting examples to illustrate his points, right?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
You've got it. He talks about how those two didn't just regurgitate the teachings of Socrates. They built upon them, challenged them, and ultimately created their own unique philosophies.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Precisely. And he argues that this active engagement with knowledge shouldn't be confined to the classroom. It's something we should all strive for throughout our lives, always seeking new information, new perspectives, new ways of understanding the world around us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I love that. And, you know, another area where Carter encourages us to go deeper is in our relationships. He's not a fan of superficiality or pretension. He believes that true connection comes from a place of authenticity and vulnerability. So it's about being genuine, letting our true selves shine through, even with all our quirks and imperfections.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like we're building walls instead of bridges. We're missing out on the beauty of true intimacy, that feeling of being seen and accepted for who we truly are.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay, I'm all ears. What's Carter's secret to happiness?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Wow, that's so simple yet so profound. It's about appreciating what we have, who we're with, and the beauty of this present moment, rather than constantly chasing after something more.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about savoring those everyday moments, the laughter, the conversations, the shared experiences that make life so rich and meaningful.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I can get behind that. So how does this all play out in his 36 Rules for Life?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Well, buckle up, because on today's deep dive, we're talking 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter. And trust me, this is not your average self-improvement guru.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like that old adage, joy shared is joy doubled.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about recognizing our interconnectedness, that we're all part of this intricate web of life, and that our actions have ripple effects that extend far beyond what we can see or even imagine.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Is it like a how-to manual for embracing our inner darkness?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like we become these little beacons of hope, lighting the way for others to step into their own authenticity and embrace a more compassionate way of being.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Like his rule about approaching pessimism from a place of wisdom and preparedness, not doom and gloom, right?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about acknowledging the darkness without letting it consume us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Right. It's about holding on to that spark of hope, that belief in our own resilience and the possibility of a brighter future.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
We're all in this together, stumbling and striving, learning and growing. And sometimes we need a little guidance along the way.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And to find those unexpected sources of wisdom and inspiration even in the darkest of corners.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about being open to those unexpected sources of wisdom, those little sparks of truth that can ignite our imaginations and inspire us to live more meaningful lives.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, that's not what I would expect it. How does he spin pessimism in a positive light?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like that old saying, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. It's about being realistic without letting fear paralyze us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I like that. It's about approaching life with a healthy dose of caution, but not letting that caution turn into cynicism or despair. It's about being prepared for setbacks without losing sight of our goals.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Right. So get ready for a deep dive into a story that's, well, it's heartbreaking for sure, but also hopeful. Yeah, hopeful. We're off to Karachi, a city, you know, bustling with life, but also struggling with poverty and hardship. And we're going to meet Zero and Ziba.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And then there's, well, Ziba develops this gothic look.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It makes their first meeting even more powerful. Here's Zero. He's out, forced to beg by his uncle. And then there's Ziba with this gothic look. And she's, well, she's surprisingly kind to him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Two people, they understand suffering, they understand hardship, and they find comfort in each other.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Two people who teach us about resilience and those unexpected ways, ways we find connection, even when things are really, really tough.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's something special to see, especially in a place like that. But then there's Zach. He comes into Ziba's life from a totally different world. He just got back from studying abroad, and he brings this sense of hope with him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And the conversations they have. Wow. They get into everything, life, the universe. It's electric. They challenge each other.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
But their connection, it feels fragile, doesn't it? Yeah. Like a flower trying to grow in the middle of the sidewalk.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it explodes. Zach's parents, they don't want them together. So they find out about Ziba's past and they use it against them to manipulate Zach.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it's just heartbreaking. He just crumbles under that pressure. He confronts Ziba, wants answers, but he doesn't even give her a chance to explain.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Yeah. And it reminds us how quickly trust can be broken. Yeah. And it leaves, well, it leaves devastation behind. Ziva's heartbroken, abandoned again, and she retreats back into herself, back into that darkness.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
He buries himself in his studies, using them to avoid his pain. And there's this bench in a park. It becomes his place to be alone, to remember Ziba.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And that's when he meets Faye. She's, well, she's a free spirit. She sees right through his walls, right to the pain he's hiding. And she offers him a lifeline, makes him laugh, encourages him to live again.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Their connection, it's a slow burn. Two people who are hurting, trying to find comfort. But there's hope there, a little light in all that darkness.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's a battle he has to fight on his own. But as he's doing that, his life takes another turn. One that will bring even more heartache and a huge revelation. So Zach's back in England. Trying to move on, you know. But he's got the weight of the past on his shoulders.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Right. And it's like their lives are, well, they're kind of like a tapestry, I guess. Like all these threads killing a much bigger story. About Karachi. Yeah. But we should start with Zero. Just imagine being orphaned at six years old during a terrorist attack.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it's ironic, isn't it? Because just as he's finding some stability, some success in England, something happens back in Karachi. Something that'll shatter everything.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It is. Remember Zero. He's been trying to survive on the streets just a kid.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And this is where, well, it gets even darker. Two police officers see Zero and, well, things get out of hand.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's awful. Zero's terrified. He just runs and then he's gunned down. A life lost just like that over a desperate attempt to eat.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's almost too much to bear. But there's this detail, this chilling detail. The officers find something in Zero's hand. A golden locket.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Talk about a cruel twist of fate. And that locket, it becomes a key piece of the puzzle, and it eventually finds its way back to Zach in England. Can you imagine getting that call, finding out a kid you knew, a kid connected to your past, was killed, and he had your picture?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
He realizes that his actions, his choice to leave, had consequences he never imagined. And if you think it can't get any worse, it does. Zack, he's reeling from Zero's death, and then he finds out Faye, the woman who helped him rebuild his life, she's betrayed him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Zack's left with so much to deal with. It's a lot, even for a character in a story.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
They really do make you think, long after you've finished with the story. You question yourself, your own biases.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It really makes you wonder about those what ifs. What if Zach had just listened to Ziba?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
What if he had challenged those expectations, fought for their love?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
That's right. Zero, Ziba, even Zach. They went through so much, but they never lost their capacity for love, compassion, and hope.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's a powerful message, a reminder that hope exists, that connection is possible, and that the human spirit, well, it can overcome just about anything.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Ooh, Zen. Yeah. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing. Right. Forcing Zero into servitude, basically exploiting his own nephew.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's bleak. But then we meet Ziba, a young woman whose beauty is almost haunting.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Like it's a reflection of all the pain that she's gone through. Similar to Zero, she lost her parents in a senseless act of violence. And her uncle, well, he turned out to be no better than Zen.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That tangible reassurance of her presence. It speaks volumes. It's a grounding moment for Jeremy, a confirmation of something real amidst all the uncertainty.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That question coming from Emily is crucial. It suggests a level of awareness we haven't seen before. As if she understands the nature of his struggles, the very real possibility that he's been questioning her existence.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Yeah. And first kisses, they're always a pivotal moment in any love story, right?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's a satisfying resolution to a story that's been so fraught with uncertainty.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It leaves us with the possibility that love, even in its most unconventional forms, can be a source of grounding, a way to anchor ourselves in a world that can often feel like a dream.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The author's masterful use of the unreliable narrator. Yes. It's not just a plot device.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It becomes a way to explore the very nature of reality, how our perceptions can be shaped by love, loss, and longing.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's a catalyst for change. But you mentioned that his entries start later in the story. What does that tell us?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Especially if you appreciate a love story with a healthy dose of mystery and psychological depth.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The author's ability to weave together these intimate diary entries with Emily's ethereal letters creates a truly unique and captivating reading experience.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep diving deep.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Mm hmm. He's trying to understand something.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Makes sense of events that have maybe shaken his reality.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And speaking of Emily. Is she equally as present throughout the diary entries?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
What a way to build tension and mystery around her character.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
OK, so diary entries, huh? What makes them special enough for a deep dive?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It immediately raises questions about her reliability, about her true nature.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's wild. And how does Jeremy react to this uncertainty?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
This poetic style. Does it carry over into Emily's letters?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Yeah, that contrast in their voices definitely adds another layer of intrigue.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Is this disconnect something that Jeremy picks up on?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That's brilliant. It's a really good way to create that dramatic tension and keep the reader engaged by subtly shifting the dynamic between the characters.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The author raises doubts about the stability of their relationship.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Wow. Talk about a contrast.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The juxtaposition of their first kiss and this moment of perceived betrayal.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
What a powerful choice by the author.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It highlights the depth of Jeremy's pain, the shattering of his idealized world with Emily.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
This makes me wonder about Jeremy's reliability as a narrator.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Is he truly experiencing these events accurately or is his perception skewed by his intense emotions?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And it's something that we should delve deeper into. But before we do, let's take a moment to consider what we've learned so far.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
These initial diary entries introduce us to a complex relationship, a hidden world, and a protagonist whose grip on reality seems tenuous at best.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Interesting. So they just drop us right into the middle of things.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And the author has cleverly laid the groundwork for a story that promises to challenge our perceptions and make us question the very essence of love and reality.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's fascinating how the author uses these ordinary settings, you know, to heighten the mystery around Emily. Jeremy describes them having lunch in the cafeteria.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
A place we all associate with, you know, routine and mundane conversations. But through his eyes, it becomes this intimate space, you know, where they're completely detached from everything going on around them.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Their ability to find such profound meaning in those everyday moments, that just adds to Emily's mystique. It's almost as if she possesses a wisdom beyond her years.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The perspective that transcends the mundane.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Yeah. A good hook to capture the reader's attention for sure.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That longing for a static existence, a world without change or progression, that's a curious detail. Could it be foreshadowing Emily's eventual disappearance, as if she's aware of her own transient nature?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And what about these initial entries? What's he revealing?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
that physical touch, that brief reassurance of her presence only amplifies the uncertainty surrounding their relationship. It's as if Jeremy is constantly seeking proof of her existence, grappling with the possibility that she might be slipping away.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That's a turning point in the story. It shatters the illusion of stability in their relationship.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And forces Jeremy to confront the possibility that his perception of Emily might be flawed.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The author does a fantastic job of conveying this gradual fading, you know, through these subtle changes in her behavior.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It creates this haunting atmosphere, the sense that something is amiss without explicitly revealing the true nature of her existence.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That's a powerful metaphor. Contrasting his longing for connection with the natural world's unhindered flow. It highlights his growing sense of powerlessness.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
His inability to control the course of their relationship.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
But also a subtle admission that their journey might not have a clear destination. Exactly. A guaranteed happy ending.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The snowstorm itself is symbolic, wouldn't you say?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
A sudden disruption of normalcy, a foreshadowing of change.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Coupled with the magical quality of their interaction.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It makes you question whether this is a genuine connection or a manifestation of Jeremy's longing.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Exactly. And then there's that scene where Emily vanishes right before his eyes.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Literally disappears into the mist.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Hidden gardens. Symbolically. Very interesting, right? It could be more than just a physical place.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Leaving Jeremy feeling utterly lost and confused.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Absolutely. And from that point on, Jeremy's perception of reality becomes increasingly fragmented. Yes. He describes feeling connected to Emily in a way he hasn't before, as if he can see into her soul. Right. But then he also senses this coldness, a warning as if she's hiding something.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And those fleeting moments of unease.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The subtle changes in Emily's behavior.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
They all build towards that devastating scene where Jeremy sees her with another man. Not just any man, but Warner.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And in the same garden where they shared their first kiss.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And it marks a turning point for Jeremy's mental state.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
His entries become more and more fragmented. His sense of self begins to unravel. He talks about not recognizing himself in the mirror. Wow. Seeing Emily appear and disappear in reflections. It's as if his own identity is becoming as elusive as she is.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That's a powerful metaphor for the feeling of being erased from the reality of someone you love.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It speaks to the profound sense of loss and isolation Jeremy is experiencing.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That regression to childhood could symbolize a breakdown of Jeremy's ego.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
A desperate attempt to escape the pain of his current reality. The cafeteria, a place associated with routine and normalcy, becomes a stage for his internal turmoil.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
His inability to reconcile his past with his present.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Absolutely. And this feeling of disorientation continues in subsequent entries. He's drawn back to the garden, but it no longer feels real. He finds remnants of their shared experiences. Emily's picnic basket, her crumpled tissue. But it's as if he's reliving a memory that might not have happened.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's a powerful testament to the author's ability to convey the complexities of human emotion.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And then in a jarring shift, Jeremy wakes up in a hospital room.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The sterile environment, the sounds of medical equipment. Right. It's a stark contrast to the emotional turmoil of his previous entries.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That sudden transition to a hospital setting raises so many questions.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Is this a physical manifestation of Jeremy's mental breakdown?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Or is there something else at play, something we haven't yet grasped?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And it perfectly sets the stage for the final act of this captivating story.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
even real at all it's a classic element of the unreliable narrator trope right oh yeah the protagonist's grip on reality is so tenuous right that it makes us the readers question everything we've experienced along with them it's incredibly effective yeah i was genuinely feeling jeremy's despair that sense of being unmoored from reality yeah
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The setting that's become so symbolic throughout the story.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
What's the atmosphere like this time?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It sounds like the author is using the setting to really kind of mirror that emotional intensity of their relationship.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
This return to the garden, especially with a newfound sense of reality, could signify a turning point for Jeremy. A potential reconciliation with himself, with his perception of the world.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so 1948 would be 7.48 p.m.?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the date would have been July 18th?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that date and time stamp would have been on the photocopy of the photo that you showed him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ask him if he was the sole owner of the Malibu?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I asked him if he was driving the vehicle that date and time. He said, yes, that was me. I asked him, is anyone else in the car with you at that time and that particular date? He goes, no, it was just me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you aware at that point that a runner had been seen on the surveillance video taken from Logan Collins' residence?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. It was one of the pictures. It was shown that there was a person.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. The first time that I got involved, I was with the Iowa City Police Department and they told me that they needed assistance with the Hispanic community for me to go ahead and do interviews in Spanish.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you point that out to the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I pointed out to the person that was running, and that's what I told Mr. Rivera. You see this person that is running? He said yes, she was running.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he used the term she?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now the picture that you would have shown him would have been essentially a shadowed dot. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Was there any way to tell in the photo that you used with the defendant if it was male or female?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he used the term her?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, at this point, did the defendant then describe seeing anyone running in Brooklyn at about that time on that date?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he went on describing that it was a female girl running.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he say at this point how many times he observed this female runner while in Brooklyn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera told me that he saw her three times. He saw her first turn around, came back. He stated that she even waved at him and smiled and then he went back and that is when he continued doing what he was doing at that time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was it that he was supposedly doing in Brooklyn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated that he was trying to find his way around town, that he was heading to his uncle's residence to obtain a vacuum cleaner.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he told you that he saw a female running. Yes. On three different occasions. Did he ever place himself out on the county blacktop east of Brooklyn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The way that Mr. Rivera described that first sight of the female was it was in a paved road near a curb.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he ever indicate that he got out of his car or engaged her in any way?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not at that particular time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he never would have had any contact with Molly Tibbetts other than, at least that's what he said, never had any contact with her other than seeing her?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that time, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After seeing her the last time, the third time, where did he say he went in Brooklyn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how many days in July did you spend in Poweshiek County assisting in the investigation in that manner?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera told me that he lost track of her, that he lost sight of her, and continued on his way to pick up the vacuum cleaner.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he then say where he went?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And to town, I am guessing because he told me that he was going to his uncle's residence, which was in the trailer court inside Brooklyn.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have a discussion with the defendant about the appearance of the female runner that he saw?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I asked her what he thought of the female runner first, and his answer was I found her attractive. I asked him what she was wearing. He said black shirts, maybe a top sport bra, and he continued describing. He did not say the name of it, but he just said one of those things that you put on to measure your steps or to hold your cell phone.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Or to what?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Hold your cell phone? Hold the cell phone.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he ever use any other term other than attractive to describe the runner that he saw?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated at one point that he thought that she was hot.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One day.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, during this conversation, does the defendant ever admit to you that he had anything to do with harming Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Moving forward to August 20th of 2018, were you contacted by law enforcement in Poweshiek County to come to Montezuma to interview a person identified to you as Christian Rivera?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right at that time, he said no.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
A break was taken after this discussion?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
During that break was, uh, Christian Rivera, uh, placed into custody.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And did the interview then continue in the vehicle later on that morning?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So later on in the morning at approximately 4 30 a.m. Did you Christian Rivera or Christian Bahena Rivera and another officer leave the sheriff's office?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Officer Kivi, an agent from FBI and myself and Mr. Herrera left the office.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And where did you go?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We went to Mr. Rivera's residence and the farm that he worked at. I believe it was a property. Yes. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's an area in southeast of Brooklyn, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not familiar with the area, but yes, that's Poweshie County.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then did you proceed to a rural area in far eastern Poweshie County?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We landed in Cornfield.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, I'm going to show you a photo. Do you see States Exhibit 3 there on the screen, Ms. Romero?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This location that is on the map is 2478 460th Avenue. Do you see that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What kind of road is that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Gravel road.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it, even for a rural county, is that area pretty rural?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was a corn field. It was corn fields all around us.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, that's a good point. This is August of 2018, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the corn is up, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it was August 21st already, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right. The corn is up and at least about head high. Would you agree?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. The grass was pretty tall, too. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The nearest town to where this location is that you went with Mr. Rivera, the defendant, is nearest the town of Guernsey. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it's almost to the Iowa County line. Would that be true?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you in the vehicle with the defendant roadside at that location that we see here on Exhibit 3?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We're going to look at Exhibit, I believe it's 25. Exhibit 25, is this the general area that you would have been parked roadside with the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, my name is Pamela Romero.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When I was contacted, I was not made aware that I was going to go ahead and interview.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, that's where we were parked.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. To the right on this photo, there is an opening to a cornfield. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And through that area, who was located there?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly Tibbetts' body.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever go out to the location of the body?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Were other officers present at this location?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, they were.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Which direction are we looking here? We would be looking back to the east. Would that be accurate?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That will be accurate.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And then exhibit number 26, if we can see that. The opening to that cornfield there is on the left on exhibit 26. Do you see that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And generally, does this area show where you were parked in the vehicle with the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. We were close to that white vehicle.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Say that again.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We were like in front of that, where that white vehicle is right now, like in front of that. Like those vehicles were not there then, but it was close to that area.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So a little bit further up the road is what I'm hearing you say.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point, were you told that you were needed to assist in the interview of the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this is looking back to the west. Would that be true?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That will be true.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there any fence between the two posts or to cross into the cornfield?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, there wasn't.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, whenever you got back into the vehicle, did you read the defendant's Miranda warnings?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did. So inside the vehicle was Mr. Rivera, myself, and Sergeant Jeff Fink.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did he wave those?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he wanted to talk to me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you then ask him what happened between he and Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I asked Mr. Rivera to give me all the details that he could remember since he approached Molly Tibbetts.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. What was the first thing the defendant told you about seeing a female on July 18th of 2018 near Brooklyn, Iowa at or near 7.45 p.m.?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told me he saw her running again three times. One of those times he parked his car behind her, ran after her or jogged after her, came close to her that she noticed him. She turns around. makes the attempt to use his cell phone to call the police. At this point, Mr. Rivera told me that he got angry and that that is when they started fighting.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. All right, let's break that apart just a bit. So the defendant on this occasion, this is while you were seated in the car roadside that we just saw, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When I got there.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admits seeing Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
he indicates that he followed her yes okay whenever you say that he said that he followed her did he indicate that he followed her in his car for a period yes did he then tell you that he stopped his car he said i parked my car yes and he got out of his vehicle and i started jogging behind her Is there another officer in the vehicle that you were in interviewing him that also spoke Spanish?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you arrived in Montezuma?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, Sergeant Jeff Fink speaks Spanish.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And does Officer Fink ask him if that was on 385th Avenue?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how do you spell your last name?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what did the defendant respond?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera confirmed that it was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
confirmed that he had seen Molly Tibbetts on 385th Avenue?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And why were you chosen to be the person to interview the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You told us that he jogged towards her and that a cell phone was used. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is what he said. Mr. Rivera said that she made the attempt to use the cell phone, later telling me that she told him that she was going to call the police.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what was the defendant's reaction to Molly Tibbetts' threat to call the police?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera said that he got angry.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he indicate that there was any type of physical altercation?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After he stated that he got angry, he stated that they started fighting.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was he any more specific at this point as to what the fight was?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He said that Molly tried to slap him and was screaming at him.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did this make him angry?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera said that this is when he became angry.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, What is the next thing that Christian Rivera told you that he remembers while he was on this road with Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was brought to the understanding that Mr. Rivera spoke Spanish, so me being a native speaker, it will be easier for me and him to communicate.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So once Mr. Rivera told me that he got angry and he remembered them starting fighting, he stated that usually when he becomes angry or when he gets mad, he blocks out. So the next thing that he told me was that he remembered him driving.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and looking down into his legs and finding the earbuds that belonged to Molly, and that is when he remembered that he had Molly in the back of his vehicle in the trunk.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He did not tell you that he remembered putting her in the trunk?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated that he did not remember putting her inside the car. He did not remember how she got there, but he did remember how he took her out of the vehicle. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But he did remember her being in the trunk?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And where were the earbuds at specifically in his car? The earbuds he described, where did he put them?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated that he was driving, looked down on his legs. That's how he put it, and that's when he saw them.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant indicate to you where he took Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, at the location where we were at at.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To a cornfield?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To the cornfield.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Does the defendant describe at this point any injuries to Molly Tibbetts' body?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He remembers that there was blood. He told me that he took her out of the car, put her on top of his shoulder, carried her inside into the cornfield, laying her down, covering her with corn leaves, and leaving right away.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And were you briefed at the time by officers that were involved in the investigation as to what the facts were of the investigation to that point?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is he specific at all concerning the injuries to Molly Tibbetts as to what part of her body those injuries were located?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At one point I asked him, was it the head that it was bleeding? Was it the forehead? He stated with his hand in motion, the neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
R-O-M-E-R-O.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So did he actually say the neck or did he just point to his neck?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated and he pointed to the neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he describe for you how her body felt when he carried her?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I asked him how her body felt against his body when he was carrying her. He told me that it felt like a person that had just fainted.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant ever tell you or remember for you any weapon that was used to cause the injuries to Molly Tibbetts that would have caused her to bleed?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, he did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He couldn't remember it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He could not remember.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it fair to say that in your conversation with Christian Rivera roadside at the cornfield that the recall by the defendant was not complete?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I was trying to get more details from him.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, DCI agents and FBI agents.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it was not complete in terms of he never discussed a weapon that was used to harm Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He did not provide you turn by turn a drive that he took to the cornfield, correct? Correct. And there may have been some other details left out, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant provide you any information concerning the condition of his clothing?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he told me that he had no shirt on because it was stained with blood. I'm sorry, I didn't... He had no shirt on because it was stained with blood. Or it could be bloody.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At the time that you were requested to assist in the investigation, had the body of Molly Tibbetts yet been located? No. Whenever you came to Montezuma, did you come with any other Iowa City police officer?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He had no shirt on at what point?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When he was carrying her inside the cornfield.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After he covers Molly Tibbetts with corn leaves, did he leave right away?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he said I left right away.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You asked him again in this part of the interview concerning putting her in the car. Do you recall that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He doesn't remember putting Molly Tibbetts in the vehicle, but remembers taking her out. Is that accurate?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is accurate.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After going through this statement with the defendant, did you press him then for more details?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because of those gaps that we just mentioned, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you want to get all of the information that you could possibly get from the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was your goal?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was my goal.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever then press him then on more details? How did you go about doing that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, so I went to ask him, Mr. Vera, please just let me know, give me more details how she got into the car, what happened to her, what did you do to her. His answer was, I brought you here, didn't I? So that means that I did it. I don't remember how I did it.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he tells you that you were pressing him for more details?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He tells you that he brought you all the way out to her?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that means I did it, right? It was a question, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is how he put it, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then he follows that with, I don't know how I did it, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you press him at one point on more details by asking him what changes?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He goes, nothing changes. I brought you out here. And then he restates what he told me earlier.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and towards the end of this interaction with the defendant, You come back to asking him about being scared when Molly Tibbetts threatened to call the police. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was his reaction or what was his answer to that particular statement?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He said that he got scared, but he got angry too.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he was angry about her threatening to call the police?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ask him after this happened, did you think about it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was his answer to that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He goes, not really.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And when people, you asked him, when people were looking for Molly Tibbetts, did you ask him, what were you thinking?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. At that time, I was traveling with Sergeant Fink.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was his reaction to that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I remember he just shrugged his shoulder and he goes, I didn't think about it.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he say that he felt bad?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he say that he blocked out everything or tried to?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The part where he got angry, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This interaction with... Christian Rivera or Christian Bahena Rivera at the roadside lasted how long in the car?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, I don't have exact times, but it was probably an hour or so.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And at any point in time, did you go back into the cornfield to observe the area where Molly Tibbetts had been found?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sorry, say that again.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you drive back to the sheriff's office with the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, currently how are you employed?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sergeant Fink.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. No, not with the defendant.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. But you went back?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The man that you've just recounted, these statements that he gave to you on August 20th and 21st, is he seated here in the courtroom?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he is.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Please point to him and describe what he's wearing.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
F-I-N-K?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He is right there, and he is wearing a light blue shirt with the gray dress pants.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your Honor, the record should reflect that Ms. Romero has identified the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is Sergeant Fink's first name? Is it Jeff?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Record will so reflect.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's all I have.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you. Ms. Freeze, you may cross-examine.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, you said that Mr. Bahena made a statement that kind of gestured a slitting of a throat. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My mistake, it was not the slitting of the throat. It was just more of a sign. Like he went like this through to the neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and so what did you understand him to mean when he did that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was asking him where there was blood, either head, forehead, and I myself went head, forehead, which he said neck, and he went like this.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sorry, that's okay. Whenever you left Iowa City, where was the first place you went to then in Poweshake County?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So my client specifically said that there was blood on her neck, is that right? That is what I understood from him, yes. And from what you understood was that her neck was bleeding, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, at the time he just said that there was blood in the neck and that's how I took it.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You understand that our injuries are not consistent with that? I was not aware of the injuries. You don't know anything about the injuries in this case, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I know what the information that they have given me, yes, but not any details or anything in particularly.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would be a different area for someone else to testify to, is that right? That is correct. Someone that has expertise in what her injuries were, is that correct? Yes. But from what Mr. Bahena said is that there was blood specifically on her neck, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When I asked him, I asked him again, was there blood in the head, forehead? He pointed to his neck like this and he said in the neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And when he pointed to his neck, he had his thumb and his forefinger around his neck as if someone was being strangled.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We went to the sheriff's office in Poweshade County.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, he just said that. I did not think of cuts, strangles, or anything like that. I just was trying to understand where he saw the blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You've pressed my client many times for more details. Is that right? Yes. You told him several times that you didn't believe that he didn't remember these details. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that where you met with other officers that you just described?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not tell him that I did not believe him. I told him that I understood if he had that condition. I even remember saying that that could be a condition when someone blacked out. But no, I do not recall saying that.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But as far as what exactly happened, you know, whether a knife was used or some sort of an object, you just don't know. Is that right? That is right. And that's because my client did not give you that information. Is that correct? That is correct. Now, he did lead you to the body. Is that right? Yes, he did. And what he did is he said, this is where this happened. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you were briefed on the investigation at that point?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He showed me the cornfield and he goes, this is the cornfield where I came, took her out of the trunk. carry her on my shoulder, went inside the cornfield, drop her on the ground, cover her with leaves, and I left right away.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now you were very clear to him that you wanted more information, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In the car, yes, when I was doing the interview, I wanted more details. I was trying to have him remember what happened between the time that he stated that he did not remember how she got in the car, but he remembered when he took her out of the car.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was that the time when it was decided that you would attempt to interview the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, he wouldn't provide you with those details. Is that correct? That is correct. And specifically, when he asked or when you were pressed for details, he said, I brought you here, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He kept restating that, yes, I brought you here, didn't I? I brought you here, didn't I?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And another thing that he said to you is, what changes? Is that right? Yes. He knew that. I mean, many hours before, he was detained on an immigration hold. Isn't that right? Yes. He was detained around 11.30 p.m. at night. And when he was talking to you at this cornfield, that was approximately 5 or 6 o'clock in the morning. Isn't that right? We left the office at 4.30 a.m.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he knew once you were there that he was going to be arrested for her homicide. Isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that time, when the 1130 interview with the ICE agent, at that time he was under custody.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And specifically, though, ma'am, between 5 and 6 in the morning when you are at that cornfield, he has brought you to the body. He's led you in the cornfield. Isn't that right? That is right. And he knew that he was going to be placed under arrest for her homicide, isn't that right? What he was thinking, I'm not sure what his thoughts were.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, he had no reason to believe that he wasn't going to be held accountable, isn't that right? I guess not. And you asked him for more details, right? Yes. And he was simply unwilling to give them to you, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When was the first time that you met the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, I will not say the word unwillingly. He kept stating that when he got angry, he blocks out. So I'm not sure if he was not willing to do it or he was just describing a condition that he had. Again, it's not my area. Now you're trained in interview techniques, is that right? I received, like I stated earlier, 16 hours of the CTK class. Have you ever heard of the term false confession?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was brought in one of the classes of the training, yes. Explain for the jury what a false confession is. Sorry, but I will not be able to do that because I do not have the knowledge of what it is exactly.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was at that time. He was sitting out at the lobby, and I was told by the DCI agents that he was out there, so I went out there to introduce myself.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Explain what you were trained at the interview technique schools that you were at.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not remember going into details with a false confession. My training was how to direct an interview, how to do report building, how to go ahead and get to know the person that you were interviewing. how to conduct the interview and manage like that.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I am the Learning and Development Specialist at West Liberty Foods, located in West Liberty, Iowa.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, ma'am, you have some very reputable skills that I would assume, given your dual language, is that you did interviews quite a lot in your capacity as a law enforcement officer. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It all depends what you mean quite a lot. Again, I started my career with law enforcement and I was doing this for two and a half years almost at the time. So I was still brand new to all of it. And I was, yes, conducting interviews in a small town of West Liberty, which I There were not a lot of interviews to be done. It all depends what a lot means to you.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was generally known in the community that you were a native Spanish speaker. Isn't that right? That is correct, yes. And so if there was someone that was investigating a case involving someone that spoke Spanish, they would often bring you in to assist. Isn't that right? Yes. And have you ever been asked to assist in another jurisdiction such as this case? No. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, ma'am, I want to talk to you a little bit about report building. That's something that you've learned at the academy?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I told him who I was, so I'm Officer Romero with Iowa City Police Department at the time, and told him, thank him for being there and for being patient, and to let him know that I was gonna go ahead and be a few minutes for us to go ahead and bring him back.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, a little bit in the academy, but again, the report building skills that I learned were mostly at the CTK classes. And specifically, what is rapport building? Again, just getting to know the person that you're talking to, anything about family, history, employment, anything that we can go ahead and get out of the specific person.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it sounds to me like you talked to my client for about two hours just doing general rapport building.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, I do not recall the exact times, but yes, the interview was long.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You did speak to him about a number of different things. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is right. We spoke about family. He gave me a list of uncles and aunts. You talked to him about his employment and where he worked.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? Yes, that is right. You also talked to him about family.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
how often he worked is that correct yes and he talked to you and ma'am i do have your trans or not your transcripts but the transcripts here if you'd like to look at them but he talked to you about how often he worked at the dairy farm is that right yes he did he told you that he worked long hours is that right seven days a week yes five to five sometimes All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so he goes into work at 5 o'clock in the morning, is that correct? That is correct. That's what he told me. And then he would leave work at 5 p.m., is that right? Yes, he said the 12-hour shift. And he would work seven days a week on his on week, is that right? Yes, he told me that there were some every other weekend or something like that, that he was off.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So generally there would be one week that he would work every single day, 12-hour days, is that right? That was my understanding when I spoke to him. And then the next week he would have two days off, is that right? He said every other weekend, so yes, that's what I understand. And that second week, so he'd work five of the seven days, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not ask what week he was on at that particular time, so I'm not sure.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so you went out initially and introduced yourself?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, let me ask a better question for you. Generally, if it was a two-week period, he would work 12 of the 14 days. Is that right? Yes. And so I understand you don't know about what days were off, but he would work 12 hours a day, 12 of the 14 days a week. Is that right? Again, he told me he went in at 5 a.m., come out at 5 p.m. And you didn't have anything to dispute that, is that right? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He talked to you about his family in the area, is that right? Yes. You were able to connect to him that you both immigrated here to the United States, is that right? Yes. You told him that you immigrated here when you were 10, right? Yes. And he said that he came to the United States when he was about 17. Yes, if I recall correctly, yes. Did he tell you the area or the township that he was from?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then you went back to where?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where was he from? I do not recall the name of the town, but he was from the south part of Mexico. The state, I believe it was Guerrero.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Back to the room where the other agents were at.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what I thought was the town, so it sounds like you're following this better than me. Did you ask him about his parents and if they're still alive? Yes, I did. And did he tell you where they were? They said that they were both in Mexico. So they were still in Mexico in Giro, is that right? Yes. Did you ask him about if he had any siblings? Yes, I did. And did he tell you about his family?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he did. And what family did he have other than his parents in Mexico?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After speaking with officers, after introducing yourself to the defendant, did you then go back out to the lobby to get him, to bring him back to attempt an interview?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, in Mexico, I do not recall anymore besides the parents, but I believe he mentioned a brother or sister. But we mostly focus on the family that he had here and around the area.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And my notes, and I don't think I want to make you go through the interview here, but it said he had two siblings. But your understanding is he had a sibling or two that were still with his parents. Is that right? That was my understanding, yes. He also told you that he's building a house in Mexico. Is that right? Yes, he did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how is it that one works in Iowa, you know, 12 out of 14 days of a week and still is doing that in Mexico?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, everybody, I don't know how he's doing it. The things that I know is that that's what a lot of immigrants do. That is what my parents did. We came here for a better life and we were building a house, meaning that someone does the construction work while you send money to them.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it's not unusual for someone that is an immigrant in this country to still be sending money home to their family. Is that right? That is right. And is it unusual for a family to be separated where, you know, part of the family immigrates to the country and the other part of the family stays there?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's not unusual.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why would a family do that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because of their immigration status?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, with Christian, him sending money back to his family to take care of his family Is that something that's unusual? No. Now, the money that someone can make in the United States versus in Mexico, is that significant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I will say so. To be honest, I came here when I was 10, so I do not have any knowledge of how much money you can go ahead and make in Mexico.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was the defendant cooperative?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he tell you that he spent time with this child?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he stated that he drove down to the Cedar Rapids area where she was living with the mother and that he used to bring her over to Brooklyn.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where did you take him to be interviewed?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So his daughter would stay with him, you know, those two days out of every 14 days. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My client also talked about his family that is in the Iowa area. Is that right? Yes. And specifically, he told you that he chose the location that he did because he had uncles in the area. Is that right? Yes. He told you that he had uncles in Tama County. Is that right? Yes. I think he said he had four different uncles in Tama. Again, I do not recall the number, but yes, there were quite a few.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We took him to one of the back interview rooms.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He also told you that he had family in Brooklyn. Is that right? Yes. It sounds to me like he had some aunts that would take care of him and kind of take cook food for him when he had a lunch. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is right. He stated that the uncle's wife was the one who prepared his food.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you take his phone away from him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He also showed you a picture of his daughter, is that right? No, I do not recall that. You don't recall him showing you a picture of his daughter? No, I do not remember that part. If I showed you a copy of your transcript, would that assist with that? Yes. All right. This was over an 11-hour interview, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I'm not expecting you to remember every single detail. But it does show that you asked to see a picture of his daughter, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you pleasant with him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not seeing where I asked him to show me the picture. I was asking him for the cell phone number. And right now, when you see my cell phone, I have in the background my own baby. And that is what I saw in his cell phone. He did not show me the picture like this and when this is my daughter. It was just in the background of the cell phone. And I asked, is that your daughter? He said yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. That makes sense. So because it talks and I don't have it right in front of me, I can bring it up. But there's some sort of a statement that you say, oh, that's your daughter. Is that right? Yes. And then you say, oh, she's cute. Is that right? Yes. So you didn't ask to see a picture of his daughter, is that right? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In the manner that we're speaking here today?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So after the rapport building that happens, and we talked about some of the things you talked about, but you got to know him fairly significantly, is that right? Yes, I believe that we spend time talking. The next thing, you did talk to him some about his status. Is that right? Yes. And we already talked about he came to Mexico when he was 17. Is that right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I believe this is the same tone that I was using with him.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You talked to him about how it is that he's able to, I guess, function in the United States without a legal status. Is that right? Yes. And my client didn't make any sort of statements or try to represent to you that he was legally in this country. Is that right? No, he was very upfront with you that he was here illegally. Is that right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whenever you showed him back to the interview room, did you point out the exits to him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was brought here when he was 17 and he's just remained. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told me that he had been in the United States for seven years and four in Brooklyn.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One thing that you were very clear to him on the outset is that you were not here to investigate his immigration status. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do remember telling him a couple of times that I was not interested in his status.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so specifically, you said you were worried about this girl's disappearance. You were not the immigration police. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is West Liberty Foods?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At one point, I did mention that, but not at the beginning of the interview.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, why don't you look at page 26 now? And you were very clear with him that you are not here to investigate his immigration status. Is that right? Yes. And he was very clear to you that he was in this country illegally. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told me that he was using another name and social security number.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And specifically that he was working under the name of John Budd. Is that right? Yes. He talked to you about using that name. Is that right? Yes. He said that he has no credit cards, debit cards or anything like that. Is that correct? Yes. Basically, he uses that name so that he is able to work. Yes. And then he cashes the check and operates with cash, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I made sure I knew where the exits were before I took him down. When we were walking down, it was myself and Mr. Rivera, and I show him there's the exit sign right there. That means that that's an exit door.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, that's what he told me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, the statement that you had about immigration, that you were not here to arrest him for immigration, you genuinely believed that at that time, is that right? Yes. Now, there were people that were not in the interview room that were making the big picture decisions on the case. Is that right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How many other people were there working on that case from the FBI, DCI, any sort of law enforcement agency?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not able to tell you that. I don't know.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
From what you saw, were there more than 10 people?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not that I remember. I mean, I do remember like four, five of them.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, you are aware that when my client was brought into custody, that his vehicle was also being processed. Is that right? At the beginning of the interview, I was not aware of that. You were made aware of that at a certain time. Is that right? That is right. And specifically, you were told at that point in time that there had been hair that was found in Mr. Rivera's vehicle. Isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Later on in the interview, yes. And explain to me, who told you that there was hair that was found in the vehicle? I do not recall who told me that. At that time, you were made aware that my client's vehicle was being searched and was being processed by the Division of Criminal Investigation, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, I'm not sure who was investigating the vehicle. I was aware that the vehicle was being investigated, but not sure who it was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I'm not asking you when, but at some point in time during that night, you became aware that simultaneously, as my client's being interviewed, his vehicle is also being processed. Is that right? That is right, yes. And one of the things that you were told... was that there was hair that was found in that vehicle. Is that correct? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there a door on the room that you conducted the interview in?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it was believed that that hair may be from Molly Tibbetts. Isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not recall telling him that it was from Molly Tibbetts. I believe I told him that there was hair found with the information that I got from the outside, but I did not mention Molly Tibbetts.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You went in and you confronted my client saying that there was hair found in the vehicle. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's a turkey process meat factory.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, there was a door which I showed to Mr. Rivera that the door was unlocked.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I informed Mr. Rivera They were telling me that there was hair found in the vehicle.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you essentially were saying, hey, explain this. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, which he stated that it was hair from his daughter.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You later found out that the statement or what you were told was not true. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Later on, again, I do not recall that. All right. I did not... People were not there telling me, yes, this is true, this is not true. I was given the information, going in there, conducting the interview.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right, so it would be for this jury to listen to the evidence and to find out if hair was actually found in the vehicle. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is someone else's part to explain.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But one of the things that you confronted him with is that there was hair in his vehicle. Is that right? I informed Mr. Rivera that there was hair. And as far as the immigration, what you told him, it turned out to be a lie. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You're telling me you could leave at any time?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, it wasn't a lie. I was not there for immigration status. I was not there to ask him about his status at all. I was there, again, to conduct an interview, and that's what I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
one of the tactics you were taught to use is to present a suspect with information that ties them to the crime isn't that right yes and sometimes investigators use false information to present to a suspect isn't that right yes and the information that you told him that you were not worried about his immigration status that changed at 11 30 p.m isn't that right
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was he agreeable to speak with you?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That did not change because I was not interested in his immigration status.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, at about 11.30 p.m., he was placed in custody for immigration. Is that right? By ICE agents, correct. Okay, so a break was taken in the interview, and he was put in custody for being illegally in the United States. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what I understood at 11.30, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My client had just gotten off of work or was finishing the day at work when he was brought in. Isn't that right? I'm not sure.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was not given that information. Well, that's what he told you. He told me that he was at work when they went to talk to him.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So up until this point, what language were you speaking with the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the interview started at about 5 o'clock p.m.? Approximately 1706. And 1706 would be 506? 506, yeah. So that would be approximately the end of his day at the dairy farm, is that right? With the information that he gave me, yes. And that interview continued through the night, isn't that right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he was given breaks, but he was essentially in a small room at the sheriff's office from 5 p.m. at night until...
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
4 30 the next morning is that right yes that was an 11 hour interview with approximately eight to nine breaks that he was given he was given food he was given breaks to use the restroom he was um given numeral number of like breaks to just be by himself yes
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
His family came and asked to talk to him. Isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Spanish.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right. When the interview began shortly after, what language were you speaking with the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not sure what the family asked. I was told that there was family out in the lobby, and I went outside to talk to them.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you talked to his family. Were you able to get their names? No, I was not. There were two people there. Is that right? I recall seeing three of them there. When you talked to them, you suggested that they go home.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I told them that I wasn't aware of how long this was going to go ahead and go for, that it was late, that if they wanted to go home, that they could.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever offer them a chance to speak with my client? No, I did not. Did you ever tell my client that his family was there to speak with him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not to speak to him. I made Mr. Herrera aware that he had family out in the lobby.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You made him aware that he had family out in the lobby? Yes. If my client says that you never made him aware that he had family out in the lobby, you disagree with that? It was recorded, so it will go ahead and be in the transcripts. All right. So you believe that it's in these transcripts somewhere? Somewhere, yes. All right. Did you offer him a chance to go speak with his family?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Spanish.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You just told him that they were there?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And was the interview recorded?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At the beginning of the interview, I told him he had his cell phone with him. I told him he was free to go whenever he wanted to. He continued to stay. He continued to talk to me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point... in the interview, you talked to my client several times about helping himself. Do you recall that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The word help, it's translated in a different concept in Spanish, so I'm not sure what you are referring to when I said help.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You believe that the transcript is wrong is what you're saying?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not saying that it's wrong, but in my opinion, there are parts that me being a fluent Spanish speaker, I will say that they're not translated the correct way, but that is just my opinion.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Recorded by video?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ma'am, these transcripts, First of all, they've been authored by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Is that right? Yes, that's what I was told, yes. So that's their translation, is that right? That's what I was told, yes. And what you're saying is that their translation is not what you believe the translation is?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And audio?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In my opinion, again, there are parts in the transcripts that I believe were not translated the correct way. And the reason why I'm saying this is by looking at the video and reading what they translate it.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would it be fair to say that there's different dialects of Spanish? Yes. Explain that for the jury.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If we were to sit and watch the video and audio of this recorded interview, would we see two people speaking in Spanish?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There are different words that you can go ahead and use to describe something. Like, there are parts of Mexico that, when you say cookie, it could, for other MIBs, like slapping someone in the face. So it's different words that describe different things. It's just hard to explain.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so my client, he's from Guerrero, Mexico, is that right? Guerrero, Mexico, yes. You say it much better than me. Where are you from in Mexico? I'm from the north side. I'm Durango. As far as dialects, can you give this jury any information on different dialects?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not really, but I do understand that there is different forms that we talk. Like anywhere in the United States, if you are from the north, if you're from the south, they can go ahead and have different accents, different dialects, and that is the same way that has happened in Mexico.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
For example, using the term hey, you know, or hello, are there different ways to say that depending on where you are from?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. It will be like saying soda or pop. I mean, in the United States, it's just different.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, so let's go to page 11 first, and I'll give you a little bit of direction. What number of the transcript? It is 20-27-35, and it's about towards the middle, and I don't want you to read it to me, but let me know when you've had a chance to read the phrase. I think you use help two different times. Have you seen it? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You will go ahead and see three people speaking Spanish.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what you say is, you say, you can help me understand so you can help yourself. Yes. And at that point, you're, I guess, suggesting that you are able to help my client. Isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, that's not the way that I see it. When I said help me understand in Spanish, it would be ayúdame a comprender. Help me understand what you're trying to say. It's like talking to a kid in school. Help me, guide me to what you are saying. So that is the meaning of the word help in there.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how long have you worked for West Liberty Foods?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sergeant Jeff Fink, myself, and Mr. Rivera.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You use that phrase multiple different times. You say, let's help each other out. We're here to help each other out. You agree with me on that. Is that right? That is correct. Another thing you say, and I can go through the different transcript places, but you're telling me that we're here to help you out. That's another phrase that you used several times, ma'am. You recall that? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant ever converse with you in English?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And at that point you say, we're here to help you out. Yes. Aren't you telling my client that you're there to help him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Basically what I'm saying, what I mean with that is I am here to hear you out, to see what you have to say.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You say that you're telling him that, but that's not what you said. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, it's just difficult to explain in Spanish because when you say it in Spanish, I'm going to go ahead and talk Spanish. I'm going to go ahead and translate what I said. So help me understand. Again, I was trying to get the information that he needed to tell me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So unless we understand Spanish, we're not going to understand the video interview by watching it, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. So it would be fair to say that these transcripts you don't agree with everything that is said in here. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, it's not that I don't agree, it's just that in my opinion, because I believe, again, different dialect, different words being used, it's just not the way that I will translate it myself.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would you agree with me that if you were to translate it yourself, it would probably be about 10% inaccurate? I will not say that, but I will be able to understand it better, yes. All right. You think that you would be able to explain it better. Is that right? That is right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And someone, and again, it looks like it's transcribed by a Kathy Yanez, but someone has a disagreement with you on how this translation would read. Is that right? What do you mean? The person taking down this information takes it down differently than you would. Is that right? Yes. And that may be different from what my client would. Is that right? It could be.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It will be difficult if you're not fluent in Spanish just because of the speed of the conversation.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Another thing is that he's also being interrogated, and you'd agree with me that this was an interrogation, correct? I do not agree with you on that. Okay, well, he was a suspect here. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not make him aware that he was a suspect. I did not have anything to hold him as a suspect at the time of the interview.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How many times have you interviewed a witness for 11 plus hours, ma'am? That was the first time, yes. All right. And in this case, he was not only interviewed for 11 plus hours, he was interviewed right after he finished a long day at work. Is that right? Yes, that was the Anderson. And he's not somebody like you and me that goes and sits at a desk all day, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
With the job description that he gave me, he was not. He's cleaning pens, is that right? Yes. He's scooping poop. Yes. He's on his feet or some other machinery all day, is that right? I did not ask him that. I'm guessing. This man, he works a tough job for 12 hours a day, 12 out of the 14 days a week. Isn't that right? That is what he told me, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'd have to be fluent in Spanish in order to understand it, in your opinion?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then he's brought in and he is questioned from you on and off for 11 plus hours. Isn't that right? The interview went for 11 hours, yes. And it was not until the very end, the last couple of hours, that he was willing to give you really any information. Is that right? That's not the way that I took it. Okay. He agreed that he saw her out running. Is that right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In my opinion, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But other than that, he did not give you any significant information until the last couple of hours. Okay. He did give me information. Okay, what information did he give you? It will be recorded in the transcripts. Okay, that's fair. This man fell asleep multiple different times during this interview, is that right? Not to my knowledge, no. Well, he was given breaks, is that right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Agent Romero, are you able to translate your conversation that you had with... the defendant on the night of August 20th and morning of August 21st of 2018.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And during those breaks, he fell asleep... Multiple different times.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was not aware of that.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you don't believe that my client fell asleep during this interview? I did not see him fall asleep during the interview. And you disagree, noticing that he was tired?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's going to be two years in June 26 of this year.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not disagree with you. At the end of the interview, he looked tired. I looked tired. Everyone was tired.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, let's turn first to... 20 27 35 and if you could go to page 15 and i'm sorry go to page 21. if you could read it's about 10 lines in do you recall ma'am and and just to be clear this transcript at 20 27 35 that deals with the military time stamp is that right yes So that would have been at 8.35 at night that night, is that correct? Yes. So about three hours into the interview.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And at that point in time, it appears that you're walking back into the room, is that correct? Yes. And what is it that you acknowledged to my client? I said, you fell asleep. And so do you recall walking back into the room and seeing that he was asleep? No, I do not recall that.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I asked him because it took a little bit to come back.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
what does he respond back to you he did not admit or anything he just goes and just a little bit yes so you're telling this jury that you agree that you said that is that right yes or are you saying that it's an inaccurate translation no i'm telling you that i do remember telling him that because i took a long time to come back from that break
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and what i'm telling the jury right now is that at the time when i that i spent with chris mr rivera and all of that time mr rivera did not put his head down did not act as he was sleeping when we were in the conversation he was very engaged he was answering the questions that i was making and at no point i saw him sleeping all right let's go to page 22 now ma'am it's the same transcript
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And if you could read the last portion and just let me know, have you had a chance to look at it or do you need more time? And just to kind of, I guess, bring you to where you were in the conversation, he's talking to you about a date that he was supposed to have with a woman. Is that right? Yes. And he did talk to you about that he was supposed to have a date with a woman on July 19th.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you had an opportunity to review both video as well as transcripts prior to coming in here today?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? That is correct. And you talked about it with him a little bit that he had even bought the woman flowers. Is that right? Yes. He had had arranged through his cousin to get flowers because he's working normally during the day. Is that right? Yes. He had said that he had cleaned his car so that it was ready for this date. Is that right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He said that he was going to take this woman to Des Moines to go out to eat. Is that right? Yes. He said that they had bet on a soccer game or something. Is that right? That is right. And he said that he lost, so he was buying. Is that right? Yes. And he told you that that date was supposed to be on July 19th of 2018. Is that right? That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what he told you is that that date never happened because the tornado? Yes. What was the answer you said? Because of the tornado, he was not able to visit. This woman, she lived in Marshalltown, is that correct? Yes. What happened to be is that this tornado in Marshalltown hit the day after Molly Tibbetts went on this run. Is that right? I do not recall. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And do you recall the interview also from your own memory as to what was said during that interview?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But he said he was planning to take her on the date and this tornado hit at the same time. Is that right? Yes. So going back to this interview, you're talking about this different date and who bought the flowers and everything. Is that right? Yes. And at that point in time, you excused yourself so that he could eat. Is that right? Yes. And what is it that he says?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He goes, I am going to sleep here, question mark, so I can start making myself comfortable, right? That was a joking matter. I took it because he chuckled. And I said, no, no, don't get too comfortable. All right. I'll be right back.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And keep moving down the transcript, ma'am. I told him no, no. You don't need to keep reading it, but go ahead and read it to yourself.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So where exactly do you want me to go from here? If you could go to 24, page 24. And what's shown is that you go back into the room. Is that right? Yes. So you gave him a break. Is that correct? Yes. And at that point in time, you asked him how he was doing. Is that right? Yes. Yes. And my client told you that he was sleepy.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Prior to going into the interview, Agent Romero You did not know the location of Molly Tibbetts' body?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that correct? Well, I did not ask him. It was Sergeant Jeff that made the question, how are you doing? And he responded, sleepy.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So at that portion of the interview, my client acknowledged that he was tired. Is that correct? Yes. If you could go to 220904, that's the next transcript. And so that would be about 10 o'clock at night. So this would be at about 1150 at night. Is that correct? Yes. Again, I do not remember the exact times. Well, the transcript would have been, it's labeled that it's 235034, correct? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that would correspond with about 1150, right? Right. And at the beginning of that transcript, you asked my client if he's sleepy. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I said, are you sleeping, Christian? And he says a bit. Yes, his response was a bit.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now I'd ask you to go to page 32. Yes. At that point in time, you also ask my client, you say, you are sleepy, right? Yes. And he says yes. And again, chuckles. Now, ma'am, I guess I can show portions of the video if need be that my client's sleeping, but I want to make clear. So are you saying that he was never sleeping when you were in the room, or are you saying that he was never sleeping?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you know that Molly Tibbetts' body had been covered by corn leaves and was located in a cornfield? Did you have that knowledge before talking to Christian Bahena-Rivera?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm saying that he was never sleeping when I was in the room. He did not make any indicators. Whenever I make the question, as you can see, he chuckles. He jokes around with it and, again, engages in the conversation with me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So what you're telling this jury is that he was joking around about being sleepy?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's how I took it, not particularly joking around, but when you ask me a question, I answer it and I chuckle or laugh. To my interpretation, that will be that I'm being serious. So you don't believe that he's sleeping? Again, he was not sleeping when I was making contact with him.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brees and Mr. Brown, could I have you two approach, please? The jury, that completes our service for today. Ms. Romero, I'll remind you, you're still under oath. When we last concluded, the defense had cross-examined the witness, and we're up to Mr. Brown. Do you have any redirect?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, sir. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Good morning, Ms. Romero.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Good morning.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The interaction with the defendant that you had at the sheriff's office, was it ever verbally confrontational?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, it was not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you pleasant with the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. I will say it was a very friendly conversation.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And you did confront him at times with certain information. Would that be true?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were asked a question concerning a hair that you were told was found in the vehicle of the defendant, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were provided that information from other officers, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever examine the vehicle?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever directly speak to any of the witnesses who examined the Malibu, that vehicle?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you have any prior law enforcement experience?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I want to talk to you a bit about the demeanor of the defendant in your interaction with him, okay?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defense spent a fair amount of time asking you whether or not the defendant appeared sleepy to you or sleep-deprived. Would you agree?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you know or have any knowledge as to the injuries sustained by Molly Tibbetts that caused her death?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Whenever you interacted with him during the interview, was the defendant able to track your questions?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, Mr. Rivera was able to track the questions.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there ever a time during the interview where you asked him a question where he appeared not to follow what you were asking?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he ever ask for any clarification on any matter that you remember? No. Now, part of the interview that we saw in the room at the sheriff's office, do you recall that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant's phone is sitting in front of him. Is that right? That is correct. Up until 1130 on August 20th of 2018, did you ever try to prevent the defendant from using his phone?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sorry?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Actually, we see in the video, would you agree with me, that he does attempt to use his phone on multiple occasions?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Objection.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Go ahead.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What's the answer to that question?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At those points where the defendant is seen with his phone, would he have been free to go?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You would have allowed him to leave if he wanted to walk out the door?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In fact, did you show him... Or how did you show him that he could get out of the sheriff's office at Power Sheet County?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When I was walking back with Mr. Rivera to the interview room, I showed physically the exit door with the exit signs, and I told Mr. Rivera that he was free to go at any time. When we went inside the interview room, I even moved the lock to the door to make him aware that it was unlocked, that he could go ahead and leave at any time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have any knowledge as to Molly Tibbetts blood being located in the black Chevy Malibu? Did you have that knowledge?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he never did that, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He never left the sheriff's office on his own?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was put into custody shortly after 1130 on August 20th of 2018, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
By the agents, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, I wanted to clarify a couple things relating to translation. Tell us again your knowledge of the Spanish language. How would you characterize it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was born in Mexico, so that is my first language. That is practically what I used. As a lot of you can tell, I have an accent with my English. Spanish is my primary language.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So regardless of the transcripts that you've been shown, you were at the interview of the defendant, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You engaged with him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Did you have any difficulty understanding his answers to your questions?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant ever express to you any difficulty understanding your questions or statements that you made to him in Spanish?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At the outset of the interview, after introductions and some other basic information, was it made clear to the defendant that you were there to talk about the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because at that time, Molly Tibbetts had not been recovered, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At the outset of the interview, after the initial introductions and conversation, was it clear that you were there to talk about Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, after the observation.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How would you have made that clear to the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We again started showing pictures of the surveillance camera that we had, and I laid them down in front of Mr. Rivera, and he admitted that that was his vehicle.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But even prior to that, the name Molly Tibbetts had been introduced into the interview by you.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I had a poster flyer of Molly, the ones that they were putting up around town. I laid it in front of Mr. Rivera, and he told me that he had seen them around town.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And no blood had been found at that point in the black Chevy Malibu, correct? Correct. Because it had not been analyzed yet by the DCI.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were asked yesterday a question by Ms. Freeze where she used the phrasing that her client, meaning Mr. Bahena-Rivera, led you to the body.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you agreed with that. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And by the body, I mean the body of Molly Tibbetts.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have any personal knowledge as to where Molly Tibbetts was located at the time that you were at the sheriff's office with the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To your knowledge, did anyone in law enforcement have knowledge as to the location of Molly Tibbetts while you were at the sheriff's office?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you please describe that for the jury?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection, calling for hearsay and speculation.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Go ahead.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not to my knowledge, no.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So no one in law enforcement had communicated the location of Molly Tibbetts to you?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would you or anyone in law enforcement have knowledge that Molly Tibbetts would have been found with corn stalks covering her body?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And lastly, Ms. Romero, did you or any other person in law enforcement that would have informed you know that Molly Tibbetts would have been located in a cornfield in the eastern part of Powshey County?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant told you in your interview in the car what with regard to bringing you to that location?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated how he made contact with her. He stated that he did not remember how he put her inside the vehicle, but he did remember getting her out of the vehicle, coming to the cornfield, bringing her into the cornfield, dropping her down, and leaving right away, covering her with corn leaves and leaving right away.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
During your interview with Mr. Rivera, overall, how would you describe his demeanor?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he indicated to you that he brought you there, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's all. Do you have any recross?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No further recross. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judge, our next witness is Amy Johnson. Ms. Johnson, good morning.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Good morning.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Can you please introduce yourself to the jury, state your name, and tell us where you work?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My name is Amy Johnson. I work for the State of Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation Criminalistics Laboratory.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how long do you work for the DCI Crime Lab?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I have been there for 19 years now.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what are your current duties with the crime lab as it relates to crime scene duty?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I am on call. approximately every six weeks with the criminalistics laboratory and we are available to be called out anywhere within the state during that time that we're on call to process crime scenes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On this particular occasion, were you working as a crime scene technician on this case?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was friendly. We had a very friendly conversation. I thought so. We were very immersed in the conversation. I was making the questions. He was answering them. Very engaged.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. I'm going to direct your attention back to August 20th of 2018. Were you called to Poweshiek County in reference to a vehicle that needed to be processed?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Actually, we were told that there were two vehicles that were available to be processed.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What two vehicles were you asked to process?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was a black Chevy Malibu and I believe it was a tan Nissan Altima.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you proceed then to Poweshiek County? Yes, my partner and I. Who was your partner at the time?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
John and Barry.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you and Ms. Berry, what time did you arrive in Poweshiek County?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Approximately 5.15 p.m.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what location in Poweshiek County did you go to?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was the Sheriff's Office, Sally Port, where the vehicles were maintained.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sally Port is basically just a garage? Correct. And it was at the Sheriff's Office?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were both the Altima and the Malibu at the garage? Yes, they were. Now with regard to the Chevy Malibu, was a decision made to transport that vehicle to another location to examine it in more detail?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. I graduated from Cedar Rapids Police Academy back in 2015. And I started working with the West Liberty police department for two and a half years later transferring to the Iowa city police department for 11 months. And I'm currently a part-timer with West Liberty police department.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
2018?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then where was it taken after that to be further analyzed and examined?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was transported to the DCI laboratory garage.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Let's talk about your examination of the black Malibu on the 20th of August, 2018 at the sheriff's office. Okay? Yes. What did you do with regard to examining the car, the Malibu?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we started with taking photographs of the exterior and interior and removing the contents and photographing the contents and logging the contents of the vehicle. And we also... My partner and I took tape lifts of the interior, searching for hair and fibers, and I took samples from some of the stained areas to do presumptive blood testing to determine if they were possibly blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the areas that you took with regard to presumptive blood stains, were any of them positive?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not on that day.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. They were following, in your following examination, though, at the DCI lab, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he ever appear to not comprehend any question that you asked him? No. Did you ever not comprehend any answer that he gave? No. At the beginning of the interview Ms. Romero did you speak with the defendant about the vehicle that he drove?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, we'll talk about that here in just a second. How long did your examination of the Malibu take while you were at the sheriff's office on the 20th of August, 2018?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would say it could have been up to three hours before we finished with that vehicle.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's continue on with your examination of the Malibu at the DCI crime lab. What day did that occur?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The examination occurred on the 22nd of August.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And just to make sure we're clear in the timeline, you also were on the crime scene team that went to the cornfield to recover what was believed to be the body of Molly Tibbetts. Is that right? Correct. That had occurred the day before the crime scene. this particular examination. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we're taking it a bit out of chronological order. Would you agree?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. But I want to stick with the car for now. Okay. Yes. All right. So the Malibu was transported to the lab. Is that right? Correct. Okay. Whenever you, I want to talk in particular about your search of the trunk. Whenever you had a the Malibu at the crime lab, were you able to search the trunk of the Malibu?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you able to access it easily? Yes. How did you access the trunk? Can you tell us?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I believe we had a set of keys for that vehicle.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, whenever you examined the trunk of the Malibu, were there various things that were in it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you describe what those were, please?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
items included in the trunk of the Malibu were a football, a volleyball, a fishing pole in two different pieces, a bag of like a fish stringer, some bobbers, some other fishing equipment like weights, some plastic bags, paper. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's okay. Various items. Would that be true? Yes. Okay. Did you search any of those areas of the trunk, including the contents, for the presence of human blood? Yes. Okay. Can you describe with regard to those items what items you searched for the presence of blood?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were stains on several of the items located within the trunk and the football and two pieces of the fishing pole were found to have stained areas that were positive presumptive for blood. And then several other areas were tested that were negative for blood. Right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'll get to the contents here in just a moment. Was there an area of the trunk near the lid of the trunk that you tested for the presence of blood?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And exactly where would that have been located?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. At the beginning of the interview, I spoke to him about his work of employment, family history, and the vehicles that he had, who he lived with, and his residence, and just rapport building.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was the rubber seal located near the license plate area on the rear of the vehicle. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm going to have you take a look at a few pictures. I think that may help us, okay?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
First of all, I'm going to show you, can you see the photos on your screen? Yes. Exhibit 40 and 41 are on your screen. What are these pictures of?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
These are pictures of the black Chevy Malibu while it was located in the Powichee County Sheriff's Office garage.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm going to show you what's been previously introduced as Exhibit 43. Can you see that? Yes, I can. What are we looking at here in Exhibit 43? Tell us what we're looking at here in Exhibit 43.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a photograph of the contents of the trunk as we found it at the Powishee County Sheriff's Office.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And whenever it was transported to the lab, were the contents, did they remain in the trunk? Yes, they did. Exhibit 44, what does that show?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a photograph showing the area that tested positive presumptive for blood located on the rubber seal above the license plate of the rear of the vehicle.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What we see here, I understand the area that's important to you, but this is also the plate of the car, is that correct? Yes, it is. All right, it's DKP 055? Correct. Would you agree? Yes. Okay. All right. And the area that you're referring to that tested presumptive for blood at the pointer, does that show the area where the blood was found?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's located above where your pointer is.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And this part of the trunk, this black, what appears to be a rubber part of the trunk, how would you characterize that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I feel that that's the seal for when the door is closed to the trunk.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's take a closer look at the stain. Exhibit 45, can you tell us what we're looking at here in exhibit 45?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a closer view of the stain without a scale in it, in the photo.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the pointer that I have, is it the stain, where is it at in relation to the pointer?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The stain is located directly above the pointer.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you put some sort of scale or marker into the photo to give us an idea of size? Yes, I did. All right. We'll take a look at States Exhibit 46. Does that show the scale?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, the spot that tested presumptive for blood is here to the right of the scale. Would you agree?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Let's just speak specifically about the vehicle. We'll get into the other things. Okay. Did you talk to him about the vehicle that he drove?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Johnson, did you find any other stain that tested presumptive for blood at this time while the car was at the crime lab?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Besides the areas that I've already indicated?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The football and the fishing pole also had presumptive positive areas of blood. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How many different stains total did you find that would have tested presumptive for human blood?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Four that we tested.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, did you collect a sample of those particular areas that tested presumptive for blood?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
For the stain in this photo, I took a swab sample of it.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Describe for the jury how it is that you would take a sample of the stain that we see here in States Exhibit 46.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So I had two swabs that I added a distilled water to and used those swabs to take a portion of the sample off of the rubber seal. And then I placed those two swabs into a box and sealed it for submission.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. So what then happens to that particular swab? What section of the lab would it go to? The DNA section would...
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
get that sample to analyze.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You have no expertise in DNA analysis, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I do not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you know Tara Scott? Yes, I do. What is her particular expertise at the laboratory?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Her specific expertise is DNA.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is she also a crime scene technician as well? Yes, she is. Okay. Somebody that you work with?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what did he tell you about the vehicle that he drove?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The other items where you would have taken presumptive blood samples, going back to States Exhibit 43, some of those are shown here in this picture, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The balls that you mentioned before? Yes. Okay, and those would have been submitted to the DNA section at the laboratory also, is that right? Correct. Now, what we also see here in States Exhibit 43 is there is some sort of liner that is in the trunk.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He actually told me that he had two vehicles. One was a black Malibu, Chevy Malibu that he had purchased from one of his cousins.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was that liner removed and submitted to the laboratory DNA section for processing?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. All of the fabric-covered sections of the trunk liner were removed from the trunk for DNA analysis.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So describe for the jury how the trunk liner was secured in the car, if you recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It had plastic fasteners in certain areas, so we dislodged it from the frame of the vehicle by removing those plastic clips. placing each of those pieces in a cardboard box for submission.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So would those have been submitted to the laboratory once the vehicle had come to the location at the lab where you examined it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, they were submitted the following day.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, and to your knowledge, who was the criminalist assigned to analyze those items that were seized from the trunk?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tara Scott.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that would include the swab taken from the rubber seal of the trunk as well, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Just to make sure we cover everything, with regard to the trunk that we see here in Exhibit 43, including the other parts of it, the rubber seal, the lid, all of it, was there anything else of significance that you located whenever you examined the vehicle on August 22nd of 2018?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We submitted several other items from the trunk into the latent print section for analysis.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And do you remember what those items were?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Everything that didn't test positive for presumptive blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So sometimes an item will get submitted for DNA analysis before it goes to the fingerprint section?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And sometimes vice versa, it may go to the other section first?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And is there a reason that may be important in a case concerning how a particular item of evidence is analyzed?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then he also mentioned another vehicle, an Altima, that he stated that he usually drove in the gravel back roads of the town because the information that he gave me is the reason why he did that is because the vehicle was not up to date with the registrations, the Altima. And the Black Malibu, it was fine, so he said that he drove that one around town.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, one process may destroy the evidence for the other process to be analyzed.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the things that tested presumptive for blood would have gone to DNA first, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The other items that would not have tested presumptive for blood would have gone to maybe the fingerprint section, correct? Correct. Okay. Whenever you examined the vehicle at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office, did you notice the stain that we see here in Exhibit 46?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It wasn't apparent to us at that time. We were searching the interior of the trunk and I feel that it may have been overlooked.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. So whenever you got to the lab, this particular blood stain that we see in Exhibit 46, that's when you noticed it? Yes. At the time that you examined the vehicle on August 20th of 2018, had the body of Molly Tibbetts been located? All right, let's move on to August 21st of 2018. Were you called back to Poweshiek County on that date? Yes, I was. And for what purpose?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Our special agent in charge notified us that there had been a body located and we were requested to process that scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you proceed to a certain location in Poweshiek County?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Alright, I'm going to put on the screen State's Exhibit 2. There is an arrow on this map and the label is 2478 460th Avenue. It's indicated as the body location. Does that appear to be the same location that you would have proceeded to in Poweshiek County?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it is.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Did you go anywhere else prior to going out to 2478 460th Avenue?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not on that day.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. You went directly there?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And what time were you called?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was in the 6 o'clock hour in the morning.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What time did you arrive in Powshey County at this location that's indicated on Exhibit 2?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
State of Iowa may call its next witness.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Approximately 9 a.m.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who else was there?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My partner, Jonna Berry, was with me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were other law enforcement present?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, eventually the state medical examiner and his associates were present.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you shown to a location at this address generally where a body was located?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the medical examiner go into that area before you did?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I believe we went at the same time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So who was the medical examiner that came to the location, do you recall? Dr. Klein. Dennis Klein?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Who's the state medical examiner, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. At this point, did you begin examining the area in and around the body that was located at that address?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe for the jury what you would have done initially to search that area.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So upon arrival, my partner and I took photographs and video of the area, including the road leading up to and away from the inlet to the cornfield. And after the medical examiner arrived, we all proceeded back into the location where we were told the body was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Let's talk a bit about the roadway that is adjacent to this particular location. Do you recall that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm going to show you what states exhibit 25. Do you recognize that? Yes, I do. On the right side of states exhibit 25, this area here to the right, what is that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is the inlet to the field where the body is located.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this road is 460th, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this would appear to be facing to the east, would you agree? Yes. States Exhibit 26, which has already been admitted, this is 2478 460th Avenue, would you agree with me?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what direction are we facing here?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is facing west.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this area here, is that how you gain access to the field? Yes, it is. Between these two posts that are photographed?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. How far from the location of the roadway until you would have entered the corn to find the body that was located?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
From the roadway to the body location?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, from the roadway to when you would have entered the corn to find the body?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The roadway to the corn was approximately 430 feet.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, and you majored that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
During the interview with the defendant, did you allow him to keep his cell phone?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I'm going to show you state's exhibit number 27. What does this show?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This shows the area in the corn where... we enter to locate the body.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There is what appears to be some sort of yellow tape that is strung on the corn stalks. Would you agree?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would be crime scene barrier tape that was placed in that location prior to our arrival.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What's the purpose of putting that up?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To try to keep people out of the scene to indicate that that's a secure location.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there anyone else other than law enforcement that was at the location that we see here in Exhibit 27?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not during the time that I was there.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Other than the medical examiner, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the county medical examiner was there also.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And although I don't have a photo of it, if you would turn around and do a 180-degree turn about face and face the road, what would you see?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We would see the grassy area of the inlet.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So from the roadway to the area that we see on the crime scene tape that's in Exhibit 27, would there have been any corn that would have obstructed your view? No. All right. Is there a little bit of an incline or a hill between the roadway and the area that we see here in Exhibit 27?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you allow him to use his cell phone whenever he wanted to?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. The roadway was not visible from the corn location and the... area where the crime scene tape is was not visible from the road.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. So if you would turn around in this location, could you see the roadway?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Could you see those vehicles that were parked on the roadway?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How would you describe the remoteness of this area that we see here in Exhibit 27?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was quite remote. There was a house to the east, approximately a half mile, and a house to the west, approximately a half mile.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Standing here at the area we see in Exhibit 27 on August 21st of 2018, could you see any houses or any other outbuildings from this location?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. During the first part of the interview, you had mentioned earlier that you talked to him about his family.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, did you then proceed into the area that we see here in Exhibit 27? Yes. All right, generally speaking, where directionally would the body that was presumed to be Molly Tibbetts, where was that located?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was approximately 60 feet south of this location, a little bit to the east.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. All right. We're going to get into some photos that show the body and the corn, but I first want you to describe what you initially saw, okay? So whenever you get into the corn, you locate the body, correct? Yes. All right. Tell us what you observed whenever you saw this area.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The area had a little bit of a clearing. There were bent over corn stalks covering what is the body. And so the bent over corn area allowed for a little bit of an opening in the corn.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you talk to him about his job?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was there any particular item of clothing that stood out that identified that area as where Molly Tibbetts was located? Yes. What was that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Her bright colored running shoes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You could see those?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Was the rest of her body for the most part covered by corn stalks? Yes, it was. All right. I'm going to show you a photograph, which is exhibit 28, which will show this area, okay? What's on the screen now is exhibit number 28. Do you see that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did he tell you about his family and his job?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The area that we see here, was it difficult to photograph without removing the corn stalks?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it fairly dense in there?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was very dense.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is this area in the middle of the photo? What does that show?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The pointer is located near the running shoes that we could see.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told me that he had been here seven years in the United States, four years in Brooklyn, working in the farms that he stated that he was working at. He gave me information about cousins, uncles living in the closed areas.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And the corn stalks that cover the rest of the body, do we see that here in this area where the pointer is located? Yes. And were you able to clear this area a bit so you could further analyze it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we removed the corn stalks away from the body and we moved away some of the standing corn so that we could process the body.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So I'm going to show you now what's been introduced and admitted as States Exhibit 29. What does that picture show us?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is an alternate view of the body with the corn stalks on it.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And where the cursor is located, is that the bright colored shoes that had first drawn your attention? Yes. All right. And although you cleared away corn around this area, had you at this time removed any of the dead corn stalks that were covering what was believed to be Mollie Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm going to show you what's been admitted as States Exhibit 30. What are we looking at in States Exhibit 30?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a view of the body with the corn stalks from her feet showing the view from that location.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, these are her shoes that you see? Yes. This photo is taken from the opposite direction that you entered. Would you agree with me?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would say yes. This is taken basically facing north.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Had any of the corn stalks in this photo been removed at the time that you took the photo?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm going to show you what's been admitted as States Exhibit 31. Where my cursor is at, what does that show us? Those are the running shoes again. States Exhibit 32. What does States Exhibit 32 show us?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is the upper body area of the victim in the cornfield with the corn stalks still in place.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a bit of a closer photo. Would you agree?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. This area that we see here that my cursor is on, what does that show?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is the left hand of the victim. Okay. The decedent.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And at this time where you see the hand, had any of the corn stalks been removed at this point? Did you and the crime scene team remove the corn stalks from the body that you had located there? Yes, we did. Okay. And when you did that, were you able to get a better look at what was underneath those corn stalks?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we were.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And before we look at a photo of that, can you just describe what you saw after you removed the corn stalks?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The body was located in a face-up position with the head in a generally northern direction with the arms located at either side of the head and one leg was outstretched and the other was bent.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You had mentioned earlier that this was what you call a rapport building.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And were there, other than the shoes, did you notice any other articles of clothing?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, there appeared to be a pink sports bra around her upper torso and black socks.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Other than the shoes? Correct. Okay, so no shorts at this location?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No headband?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
By the way, did you ever locate a Fitbit or a phone at this location?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, we did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you search for one?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you were unsuccessful in finding either of those items?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. We're going to look at States Exhibit 33, which shows the body of Molly Tibbetts. Selma put 33 on the screen. You've described what you saw, but let's orient the jury on this photograph, okay? This area that I have the cursor on, what part of the body is that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is this something that you had been trained on with regard to conducting an interview?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Her head was located adjacent to the cursor.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. So this, where the cursor is now, that's her head?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Does it appear to be facing the camera?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And this area here, what is that article of clothing?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This appears to be a pink sports bra. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We're going to take a little bit closer look at that. So you can also see her left arm, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's up above her head? Correct. The area here is Molly Tibbetts' torso? Yes. Correct. And then this area would be where her genitals would be or between her legs, is that right? Yes. That area, does it appear to be more decomposed than the remainder of her body?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What's the purpose of report building?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It does appear to be decomposed. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And her legs are, the cursor here, is this her right knee? Yes, it is. And here is her left knee. Is that right? Correct. Are her legs spread apart? Is that what that appears to you?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Getting to know the person that you're talking to.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, they are.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And her shoes that you saw in the corn, is that these colorful shoes here? Yes. And I don't mean to be too graphic, but did her feet appear to separate from her legs? Or do you know?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's fine. Actually, the medical examiner was at that location and recovered the body. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you didn't have anything to do with that? No. Okay. All right. So after viewing the area where Molly Tibbetts was located, did you also search the area surrounding her in the corn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you find any other items of significance? Yes, I did. Were you able to locate Molly Tibbetts' shorts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I found a pair of black shorts in the cornfield. I understand.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They were only associated with her because they were near her body that you located, correct? Correct. And did you find another article of clothing near where Molly Tibbetts was located?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And during this part of the interview, were you able to get to know the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, two more items.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. What else did you find?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There was a pink band of fabric. and a striped, what appears to be underpants, underwear.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you diagram this area to give us a better idea of where those items of clothing were located in relation to Molly Tibbetts? Yes, I did. We're going to look at States Exhibit 24. The sketch that we see here, who created that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, in the middle of the sketch, what does that represent?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a drawing of the body position as we found it in the cornfield, showing the bent over corn stalks.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This area here, what does that represent on your diagram?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's indicated as item four, which was the pink sports bra.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this would be her head area, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Above that location, yes, that was her head.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The area then that we see on the right that appears to have a number attached to it of 15 feet, do you see that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ask him where he was currently working?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those are the black shorts located in the cornfield.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what does the 15 feet represent from where to where?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was approximately from the location of the body south into the cornfield.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Just to make sure we're oriented correctly, in order to get to the shorts that you see here in the diagram, you'd have to walk further into the cornfield.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? And as we were facing, going into where Molly Tibbetts was located, it would be more to the left. Is that true?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. The other item that we see here, there's a 24 feet that's represented there. Do you see that? Yes, I do. What item of clothing was found there? That was the pink fabric. What type of pink fabric was that, to your knowledge? Possibly a headband. So that was even further into the corn. Would that be true? Correct. Going in the same southerly direction?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where was that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, southeastern.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then moving more on your diagram then to the left, so the area that I just had pointed to you, what exactly was that that you found there?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yarrabee Farms.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So item number eight is indicating the striped fabric that was consistent with underpants.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did he tell you what his jobs were at Yarrabee Farms?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And is there a measurement that you have between where Molly Tibbetts was located and where this particular item was found?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I found that to be approximately 34 feet to the southwest of her location.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, even further into the corn than the other two items that you found that we've already discussed. Is that correct? Correct. And what was this item of clothing, if you know?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It appeared to be striped underpants.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he did. He told me that when he started his employment with Jeremy Farms, he was milking cows. And later he told me that he moved to another position, that it was a lot easier, which was cleaning the sections.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you take photos of those items? Yes. All right. We'll talk about the black shorts first, okay? Yes. All right. This exhibit, which is exhibit 34, I have here labeled black shorts, and it's difficult to see that this is from a distance. Would you agree in exhibit 34? Yes. And as we approach that area that we see that red flag is Exhibit 35. Show a closer view of that.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What do we see here in Exhibit 35?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is the pair of black shorts located southeast of the body with the flag indicating.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Same black shorts that we just saw in Exhibit 34, just closer? Yes. And this item here is what you're talking about. It looks like wadded up, dirty black shorts. Yes. Did you collect those?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And those would have been submitted back to the laboratory?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Let's move to another, the area where you had indicated there was a headband further back in the corn when we looked at the diagram. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you take a photograph of that area as well? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, let me jump in and stop you there. We'll take our lunch recess at this time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Before we move on to the next section of the interview, Ms. Romero, overall in this interview and interaction with the defendant, did you take frequent breaks?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Of all of the interactions that you had with him, was it always you and Jeff Fink that were in the room, or were there times when one or the both of you would leave?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were times that one of the other ones will live. I was all the time with Mr. Rivera.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you provide him food?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did. And the hours of the interview, I believe we gave him approximately eight to nine breaks.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So when would you have left law enforcement? Do you recall?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you provide him a full meal at one point?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, there was a sandwich, and I even asked what beverage was his preference, and I provided that to him.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you allowed him time to eat that meal?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He had approximately 23, 25 minutes to eat.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, was he always tracking questions that you were asking him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he appear sleepy to you at any time?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it was December of 2018. Ms.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, maybe towards the end. I mean, at the end of the interview, everybody was tired. I was also tired myself.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After the initial part of the interview, did you then turn to whether or not he knew, the defendant knew or had seen Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall how far into the interview with him as far as time that you raised Molly Tibbetts for the first time?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. I do not recall the exact time, but it was approximately an hour, an hour and 45 minutes into the interview.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And do you know if it was before or after he had had something to eat?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Romero want to direct your attention to July of 2018. Did you become aware of an investigation that was being conducted in Poweshiek County involving the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you then begin to gather facts or attempt to gather facts about the defendant's possible knowledge of Molly Tibbetts' disappearance?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What does he initially say with regard to Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera told me that he had no idea who she was, and she told me that he had never seen her.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have a photo of Molly Tibbetts that you showed the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that time, I pulled out one of the posters, the flyers that had Molly Tibbetts' face. I put it in front of Mr. Rivera and he looked at it and he goes, yes, I have seen them around town. They are all over town. And at that point, he also added that he remembered seeing Molly's boyfriend at one of the local gas stations.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But initially he denied having ever known Molly Tibbetts. Is that true?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is true.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
or having any contact with her.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is true. He stated he kept a copy of the poster flyer and his car.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At all points forward in the interview, Ms. Romero, with the defendant, was your understanding that you were talking about the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts with the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And when you used the terms her or she, were you referring to Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it your understanding that the defendant did the same?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Our next witness is Pamela Romero. Can you please state your name for the record?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there a time then, bringing in Molly Tibbetts to the interview, was there a time during the interview that you then showed him a photo of a vehicle that was taken from surveillance in Brooklyn from the home of Logan Collins?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, so I was provided with three pictures of a black vehicle that was obtained, I was told, by one of the DCI agents from the Logan Collins surveillance video. That photo showed the black Malibu.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And had you received those three photos at one of the breaks that you had taken during the interview?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I was made aware.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
While you were at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you show those photos to Christian Bahena-Rivera?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Hang on a second. Sorry. How did you display them to him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was just going to say that I laid them out in front of him, the three pictures together. I said, can you please look at them for me? He looked at them, and his response was, yes, that is my car.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And were you requested to assist law enforcement in speaking to potential Spanish speaking witnesses?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you even have to ask him if it was his car, or did he just volunteer that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He volunteered to say that that was his car.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
These were still shots taken from the surveillance camera, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is what I was told, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did it have a time and date stamp on it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, they did, which I pointed out to Mr. Rivera. He stated that, yes, it was 1948, the time, and July 18, the date.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And if you think it's a coincidence that they waited until the end of the work day to get this guy and bring him back and question him, you got another thing coming. So he worked since 4.30 in the morning. They get him. He voluntarily agrees to go speak. He's compliant. He's a yes man. He talks to Pamela Romero and other officers for 11 hours.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
after working in a dairy, where he works, mind you, 12 hours a day plus, 12 out of every 14 days. He tells them enough to take him to the body. Why'd he do that? Very simple. He was protecting his own. He was protecting his daughter Iris, He was protecting the mother of Iris, or protecting his daughter, Paulina, and the mother, Iris. I'm sorry, I misspoke.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, this 11-hour interrogation was recorded. And you can see from the photographs, those are snapshots from the interview, that there were times where English speakers were in there, okay? Agent Valletta speaks English. You heard Kristen testify the guy standing up was yelling at him in English. Agent Valeta was calling him a liar at the point he's sitting here.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yet, you didn't get the benefit of seeing any of the interview and judging for yourself the credibility Christian Bahena's statement or the authenticity of that interview. Think about that. This case had the unlimited resources of the federal government there. FBI right there. DCI right there. These guys are the best of the best that we have. These guys know how to interview.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They've handled homicide case after homicide case after homicide case. They've interviewed people over and over and over again. And they send in Pamela Romero, a cop who had a total of about two and a half years experience, whose law enforcement training was only the academy, and 16 hours. 16 hours. of interrogation and interviewing training. Folks, you spent 12 in jury selection.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Christian Bahena spent 12 hours working that day. They sent the most inexperienced officer they could into a marathon interrogation with a suspect in a homicide case that had more attention than they've ever known because she was a quote unquote native speaker. Now, why on earth would they not send in one of those agents who really knew how to interview and interrogate, and let Ms.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The analysis is much, much different than that. The analysis is whether this table and the people from this table, the government of this state of Iowa, and the people hired by the government of this state of Iowa, and the resources they've produced have brought forth enough evidence to prove this case and each and every element of the charge beyond a reasonable doubt.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Romero do the translation. She was fluent, which by the way, her saying she's fluent in Spanish is like one of us saying we're from Iowa, therefore we're fluent in English. There's a lot of people who speak English that aren't fluent, folks. That's just the way it is. Just because you grow up here doesn't mean you're fluent.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We can speak the language, but I would submit you wouldn't be the best at translating. You wouldn't be the best at interpreting. Agent Valletta wanted to sit behind the curtain and control the interview. But the problem is, when they come here to the courtroom and want to produce evidence, they can't because now it's all in Spanish. So now the state can sit at the table
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and sit behind the curtain and produce the evidence by having Ms. Romero testify. And you folks can't judge the evidence. If that evidence in that interview had been with someone who was an English speaker, that evidence would have been played. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. But since it's in Spanish, we only get to hear bits and pieces from what Ms. Romero said.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you're told to rely upon that as a confession. Folks, that's a problem. That's sloppy. And note, when the supposed confed came. Remember, he was in that room for several hours. I think they took him in three, four o'clock, maybe five, doesn't really matter. But what were they insistent on saying? What were they insistent on saying? We're not from immigration. We're not from immigration.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We're not from immigration, right? Because they know that that's the one thing that a Mexican national, an undocumented worker, fears most. And they wanted to put him at ease, and hopefully he would open up, and he didn't. He kept denying, denying, denying, because he knew that there were problems if he came forward. Iris was in danger, Paulina was in danger. So what did they do?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At 11, 11.30 p.m., they called immigration. When he didn't give them what they wanted, they called immigration. And they put that detainer on him so he couldn't go anywhere. They didn't get what they wanted, so they put the hold on him. So they weren't there for immigration until they were, until he didn't get what they wanted, until he didn't tell them what they wanted.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's 11, 1130 at night, so now he can't go anywhere. And yet they continue. They continue at him. And you saw pictures. He falls asleep. They wear him down. They wear him down. You heard Christian say that they said things to him. Pamela Romero said things to him. Help yourself. Help yourself. She was the good cop. She was the nice lady. Help yourself, Christian. Help yourself, Christian.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Maybe there was something wrong with you, suggesting the blackout. This all makes perfect sense. He wanted them out of their hair. And when finally she says, Christian, think about the family. Think about if you were the parent of that little girl. That's when he relents and tells them just enough to take him to the body and gives them this blackout story. Gives them the story about being angry.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's been spoon-fed to him. Now the bad cops are in the room too. Classic good cop, bad cop. I mean, this is straight off TV. Angel Valetta, right in this space. What is he, a foot and a half? You're a liar. You're a liar. You're a liar. The tall skinny guy in the back is yelling at him using words that Christian can't understand. You can assume what those words are.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sure they're curse words. But, again, they had the full resources of the federal government and they couldn't give you any basis to know what's been said there because it was in Spanish. You have to believe Pamela Romero. And you saw her up here. Her answers were evasive. She was non-responsive in many of her answers. She was obviously biased in her answers.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She couldn't just say yes or no to an answer. She had to try to explain herself and take it in a different direction. She wants to get back into law enforcement, even though she's out of law enforcement. She had never done a homicide interview in her career, ever. What a colossal blunder. What a colossal blunder. They had the ability to videotape it.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is a huge standard, folks. That is a high standard and you cannot forget that and you must keep that in the forefront of your mind. It must be right here all the time. You can't be swayed by emotion. You can't let pictures And emotions of those pictures get to you. You must be logical and you must do your job. Judge Yates has told you that. I'm reminding you of that.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had the ability to let you hear it if they chose to use someone who spoke English and translated it, and they didn't do it. They didn't do it. Element three and element four you'll find in instructions 17 and 18. And those are malice, forethought and malice, and premeditation.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, I'm going to just kind of veer off just for a second, but let's assume for a minute that you do buy into what Mr. Brown's selling. If you take Mr. Bahena's story, the first one he told police, that version of the events, that he got angry and just started stabbing Mr. Tibbetts, There's absolutely no evidence of premeditation. Did he think or ponder upon a matter before acting? Absolutely not.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Absolutely not. Not a speck of evidence of premeditation which is required for murder in the first degree. Did he deliberate? Did he weigh in one's mind? Did he consider? Did he contemplate or reflect? Absolutely not. That's even if you buy the state's theory. Malice aforethought, a fixed purpose or design to do some physical harm to another, which exists before the act is committed.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, even if you buy what they're selling, they can't prove malice and they can't prove premeditation. That would take you to murder second degree. and maybe voluntary manslaughter. You folks are smart, you folks are bright. I'm not going to take you through those. Instruction number six is you are to decide the facts from the evidence. And again, this goes back to jury selection.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And Mr. Brown asked many of you if you would hold it against him if he didn't have video evidence, if he didn't have video of the crime. And of course there's not video of the crime. Very few places in the country have video surveillance all over the place.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But you should hold against him and hold against the state those times where they had the ability to video things, record things, and not produce it. Absolutely should. Because that's the true way for you to judge the facts. Mr. Brown talked earlier about the unbiased digital evidence of Kevin Horn.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What about the ability to have video evidence that is unbiased and able for you to analyze yourself? And again, I have to come back to Agent Villada and his statement. We had the unlimited resources of the federal government, the FBI, who investigate major federal crimes. Homeland Security, they investigate terrorists. They had drones up in the air.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had guys from Dayton, Ohio doing these fancy calculations on cell phone towers. Which, by the way, they did one cell phone tower. They provided you evidence of one cell phone tower, Molly Tibbetts. What about his cell phone tower? Most importantly, what about Dalton Jack? Victimology. Victimology. Remember that statement? Let's get to know people who are closest to Molly Tibbetts.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's learn her patterns, her habits, what we're doing, what she does, who she associates with, victimology. Where are Dalton Jack's phone records? If he was in Dubuque, he had a cell phone. Where are the tower records? No, let's bring in his boss, who's going to come in and testify for him. Where's the unbiased, non-biased records?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You saw some records with Dalton Jack because I was trying to cross-examine them with him. You saw how that went. You saw the fight with those. We tried to talk about his text messages between him and Jordan Lamb, between him and Molly Tibbetts. We talked about his affairs.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why on earth would you not just put up Dalton Jack's phone records if he truly was in Dubuque, if he truly worked until 7 p.m.? Why not? Unbiased communication. Digital evidence that we couldn't refute if it truly was there. Unlimited resources of the federal government. You don't think this Kevin Horan couldn't have done that? Why didn't they not produce that for you?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You can infer from their lack of producing that evidence that it was damaging to them. And you should. Why not? You heard the testimony of that man, and we'll get to it in a little bit. But they could have, and they chose not to. They could have, and they chose not to. These things are everywhere. These things are the television of the 21st century. Your cell phone, your smart phone.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's unbelievable. You all know it. You sit around your house and you talk about recipes. You talk about buying a new boat. You talk about buying a gift for someone and next thing you know you're on your smartphone looking up the internet and there's something pops up that you talked about. It's scary. You can order something off Amazon. You can go to Hy-Vee.com.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You can go to Walmart.com and you can know that the item you purchased is off the shelf or the item's been shipped and you can track it in real time. You can know where it is, anywhere in this country, like that, okay? But the state cannot produce for you a video of Christian Bahena from the sheriff's office to Molly Tibbetts' body.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not talking at you about it. I'm just cautioning you because that's what justice is. Justice is have they done their job and proven Christian Bahena guilty. beyond a reasonable doubt. Have they proven that man, that young man there, is he a murderer? Have all the elements of murder in the first degree of that young man in the middle been proven?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You would think that this man says, I'll take you there, I'll take you there, right? That good policing, that all these years of experience, the best that the state of Iowa has with special agents, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Division of Homeland Security are here. They're all carrying these at least and he gets out of the car supposedly.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sure it's a patrol car that has at least a, you know, a recording camera on it for when someone gets pulled over or something that they don't at least take a moment to record him going to the edge of the corn and pointing out the body so you can view for yourself what he's doing? They don't have that. Why not? Let me tell you why not.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because they had nothing for four weeks and they were excited and they cut corners and they rushed to judgment. That's exactly why. They wanted to close this case and they wanted to close this case now. Just like when out at the scene they had Christian in a car,
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, if you want to believe his confession, which is now at, what is it, 6 o'clock the next morning after he was taken from his workplace, and he said, supposedly, according to Pamela Romero, I brought you here, didn't I? Question mark. That must mean I did it. Question mark.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown can say, can fight me on the punctuation, can fight me on whether or not it was one of those things where he's throwing his hands up saying, I brought you here, didn't I? or whether he said, I brought you here, didn't I? You know, sarcasm, vocal inflection, context, all that stuff matters when you are talking to someone.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You can't just say that, well, Pamela Romero said, he said, I brought you here, didn't I? After 24 hours of being awake, they didn't have a recording to show you, didn't have, after they have the body now, okay, they have the body, they have Molly's body, At that point, at least, you'd think there's time out.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's get somebody on this case now who really knows what they're doing and do a proper interview. And let's translate it. Let's get the case agent, Valletta, on this and do a proper interview because we want to wrap this up tight. But yet, they didn't do it. They wanted to just close the book. The state seems to want you to just take their word for it. Take Pamela Romero's word for it.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Therefore, he's guilty. You've got to believe everything she said. You've got to believe that statement he made was absolutely credible without any corroboration whatsoever to what she said. This is a murder case. A murder case of Molly Tibbetts. Put it in context. What was going on there? Who was all there? Why did they cut the corners that they cut? Remember this instruction.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We start talking about what witnesses you can believe. inconsistent statements, their appearance, their conduct, what interest they have in the trial, what's their memory. That tells you who you can believe and who you can't believe. You saw Christian Bahena's testimony. He sat there yesterday and he gave you his version of the events. Mr. Brown suggests that those versions of the events were
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
as a result of knowing what the evidence was and having time to rehearse them. And he says it makes no sense. It makes every bit as much sense as the state's theory that an undocumented immigrant runs up alongside Molly Tibbetts on a highway in broad daylight, gets angry, and decides to stab her. Absolutely does. Let's talk about the video evidence, and here there's a mistake here.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Like I said, Maui Tibbets deserves justice, but so does Christian Bahena. He deserves justice, and your job is to find the truth, judge the facts, and do justice. Now let's set the stage. It's important that you know all the facts, okay? It's important that you understand where we were in July 2018. A lot of time has passed since July 2018. We've lived through a pandemic.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The jogger was not seen at 8.07. She was seen at 7.45, okay? So 7.45, she's running north. I think it's on Boundary Street in the intersection of East Des Moines Street. The Malibu went by heading east out of town or east by Logan Collins' house at 8.07 p.m. Agent Reeson said it was three minutes off on his cell phone, so it's about 8, 10 p.m. Horan's testimony is that Ms.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tibbetts would have been traveling south and east at 8, 20 p.m. So... I'm going to object. That's not the evidence.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, Mr. Freeze has pointed out that there is something inaccurate on there. Talking about... Well, can we approach?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah. Go ahead and continue, Mr. Freeze.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The video evidence, you have to put together a time frame, and you have to ask yourself if this crime could have been committed by 5'7", 125-pound Christian Bahena. In that short time frame, could he have overpowered this woman? Could he have stabbed her nine times, tossed her in the trunk, and then headed south? That makes no sense. Let's look at the facts and apply your common sense.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Christian Bahena works 12 hours a day. 12 out of every 14 days. He averages 75 hours a week. 75 hours a week. The other days, the other two days out of every two weeks, he sees his kid. He has a date the next day. You heard his aunt talk about that. You really want to believe that Christian Bahena, the man you saw on the stand,
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yesterday, the undocumented immigrant who has spent years working in this country, working hard to remain undetected, going to town only when necessary, working under an Anglo name, John Budd, having no history of law enforcement contact, no history of violence, is brazen enough to pick up a woman, abduct her and maybe kill her, in a span of 10 to 20 minutes. Folks, this was planned.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not by him, by someone else. Let's talk about the DNA evidence. DNA evidence is not helpful to the state. Absolutely not. Now understand the DNA evidence is we expect Mr. Bahena's DNA to be in his trunk, right? We would expect that, especially if he was involved with killing Molly Tibbetts. Have they presented you any of Mr. Bahena's DNA from that trunk? No. Not one speck. We expect... Ms.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tibbetts' DNA to be an honored person. Only Ms. Tibbetts and Christian's DNA was submitted to the lab. Now, what the problem is with the DNA is exactly what the reports tell us and then as explained by Dr. Spence. And that is, first of all, remember the testimony was that the investigators and the lab didn't test the trunk liners until a year later at Mr. Brown's request.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So investigators didn't deem it even relevant to try to find someone else's blood, Molly's blood, inside the trunk. They had it on the trunk liner, on the gasket, that little piece of blood you saw, but not to see if she was actually, her DNA was in the trunk. We're glad that Mr. Brown asked for that because it gave us some very compelling findings. Okay?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, the DNA that was found on the trunk liner, okay, there's Item 59-3, and that's a really small, less than a dime-sized cutting that Tara Scott took, okay, small. It had 10 accounted-for alleles, those little identifying markers that Dr. Spence talked about, that were not from Christian Bahena or Ms. Tibbetts. They came from an unknown male beyond the major presence of Ms.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tibbetts, so an unknown male was there, and we know that from Ms. Scott herself, it was a mixture of three people. Three people. And what's important is Ms. Tibbetts' DNA is on that very small spot mixed in with three people, okay? Right there in that very small spot. Item 60.1, there were 14 unaccounted for alleles, not Ms. Tibbetts and not Christian. 61.1, five unaccounted for alleles.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can't tell if it's male or female. Basically what it tells us is there's other people's DNA in that trunk mixed with Molly Tibbetts in those very small portions. Not somewhere else in the trunk, but right where Molly Tibbetts' body was, in the exact spot. Why is that important? Because we have no other DNA to exclude anyone, folks. Again, victimology.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Some of us have lived through tornadoes, derechoes, just a lot of time has passed. But this case is much, much different than any case I would submit that you have ever heard. Within a couple days of Molly's disappearance, the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation is on scene. Agent Trent Villita is there. and the investigation begins.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why on earth would you not take Dalton Jack's DNA? Remember that? Crime scene team come into 622 West Des Moines Street, they take a Dr. Pepper can, they take an Arizona tea can, and they swab everybody in Molly's family for DNA. Of course Molly's DNA is gonna be on that can. Why were they even in that bedroom? They were thinking that maybe she was in that bedroom with someone else.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They wanted to get her DNA. Of course her DNA was going to be on that can. Why would they need to know that? Was she going to abduct herself? They were in that room to see if someone else was in that room, yet they did nothing to get DNA to exclude people. That's the funny thing about DNA. It doesn't need to point the finger at anyone, but it can exclude people.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would that DNA have excluded Dalton Jack maybe? Maybe, but we don't know. Because we cut that corner. We just wrote him off right away. July 25th, the testimony was that he was cleared. But then on July 27th, they interviewed him again, and he admitted that he lied. He had withheld information. And he told you here on the stand, he didn't deem that him having an affair on Molly was pertinent.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He didn't think it was relevant to the case. Well, the agent sure did. That's why he was called back to talk about it. But they didn't test anybody's DNA other than Christian and the Tibbetts family and all the Hispanics at Yarrabee Farms. They did a canvass of the entire town and didn't test anyone else's DNA. No one else's. Why would you not do that? So you can at least exclude people.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had the resources of the federal government there, folks. DNA is an exclusion tool. It acts like a funnel. It helps us figure out who couldn't do it as well. Also recall that there were no fingerprints in that trunk. Christian Bahena's fingerprints were excluded from being in that trunk. Someone else's fingerprints were in that trunk.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And in fact, the fingerprint cards that they were sent in were done so sloppily that they couldn't compare the other fingerprints against it. And they didn't ask to do any more. Remember, Tara Scott's report and a Young's report were uploaded and made available to Agent Vilda. He had him right there at his disposal. He could have done more investigation anytime he wanted. He didn't. He didn't.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They didn't get you any more digital evidence. They didn't get you any video. They didn't get you any DNA, any more fingerprints. They just say, believe us. I mean, and the testimony yesterday. You know, the DCI agents on there after the FBI says, hey, go get some of this blood from 2384 460th Avenue, a mile from where Molly is found. And they get it, and they don't test that either.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Even though the FBI says do it, Agent Villida doesn't do that. And that was days and days and weeks before Molly was found. Don't do that either. That brings us to Dalton Jack. Ask yourself this question. Why did the state even call Dalton Jack as a witness? Think about that. What do you have to add? He wasn't in town during the abduction. He didn't know who committed any of the elements.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He wasn't here. That's what they're saying. He was in Dubuque. He had nothing to add. He wasn't a witness. Why? What did he know, really? They knew he was a problem. They knew from the jump that this guy was a problem. That's why they investigated him and questioned him after they cleared him. That's why they called his boss today, because they heard his testimony. Remember that jury instruction.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Shortly thereafter, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is on scene. A number of local law enforcement agencies are on scene. In Brooklyn, Iowa, a town of 1,400 people, Homeland Security shows up in Brooklyn, Iowa, for a missing 20-year-old girl. Use your common sense. Use your experience. When's the last time something like that has happened? It was a circus in Brooklyn, Iowa.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whether a witness has made inconsistent statements. Remember Mr. Jack didn't even want to be here. Didn't want to be here for the love of his life to make sure she had justice. What kind of person is that? Well, it's the same kind of person that would have an affair on the love of his life while he was planning on getting engaged to her.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's the same kind of person that would portray their relationship as rosy to the public while it's rocky and private. It's the same kind of person who was losing control of Molly. She was going to fly. She was outgrowing this man. He was angry. He has a history of being a fighter, and they knew he was a problem. All Dalton Jack had to add was his testimony that he did not do this.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And his alibi that the state gave you was his inconsistent statements. No video cameras from the hotel. Not a single receipt that shows that he was at Walmart or got gas or went to the gas station. They got any beer. Nothing, no time cards, cell phone towers, we talked about those. We know where Ms. Tibbetts was, but we don't know where Dalton was, easily found.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ulysses Felix, you heard that name come up a number of times. Ulysses Felix knew both Mr. Bahena and he knew Dalton Jack, Iris Gamboa's cousin. He knew Miss Tibbetts. He knew the defendant and bid to his house over at night. That's the connection. Ulysses Felix is the same one who moved in with the Tibbetts family after his parents took off. That's how people knew where to find this guy.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We don't dispute Kevin Horn's testimony, not at all. We just want to know why it wasn't done for Dalton Jack. This, we think, is a big point. Dalton Jack texts Ms. Tibbus at 8.18 p.m., says, my dad, a straight-up won't work. We think at 8.28 p.m., within 10 minutes, Ms. Tibbus is in the trunk and driving at a high speed away from Brooklyn.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Within 10 minutes, within 10 minutes of her being abducted, with her being killed. He mysteriously sends a text that says, my data straight up won't work. It won't work. And 10 minutes later, she's in a trunk going at a high rate of speed away from Brooklyn, Iowa. Where was that text sent from? Where's the tower information on that? That's a suspicious text if I've ever seen one, folks.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It sounds like someone trying to cover his tracks. But believe his boss. Don't believe unbiased evidence. Remember his testimony that Jack still can't figure out what he was doing that night. We asked him, do you recall telling the agents that you showered that night and washed brush hour one in your room? He said, I'm sorry, Jack. I'm going to object. This transcript is not evidence.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained, Mr. Freese. Well, we asked him, did you have anger problems? He answered, I did in high school. Do you like to fight? He said, yes. We asked him, do you recall telling agents on July 18th you were in your room showering and watching Rush Hour One? He said, is that the night of the 18th? He said, question, yes. He said, yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But then he come to court and said your testimony today is you were outside drinking beers with the boys. Answer, yes. Question I asked him, so you told the officers on the 27th of July a different story, right? I suppose so. This guy gave different story after different story. I asked him, who's that woman you had an affair with? Her name was Jordan Lamb.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What'd you tell the officers the reason you withheld that information? I didn't deem it necessary. I didn't think it was pertinent to the case. I went on to ask him, you didn't want Molly moving in with friends. You wanted her moving in with you. I was upset that she went back on the plan that I had been going with for the last year and a half after that. You were angry, I asked.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Media was everywhere. You heard Agent Villa talk about the media that was there. You heard him talk about this reward that was just skyrocketing. That doesn't happen here in Iowa. Your experience tells you that. Your common sense tells you that. For a missing 20-year-old jogger, we didn't even know that she was dead yet. We didn't know she was picked up off Interstate 80 and abducted.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He said, correct. Finally, when I asked him about his temper, I said, it was short-fused, wasn't it, Mr. Jack? And he said, yes. Liked the fight? Yes. Ron Pexa. What do we do with Ron Pexa? Ron Pexa's address is 2410 460th Avenue, less than a half a mile where the body was found. His property is adjacent to the property where Molly was discovered. Jamie Slife came in.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and told her truth about who this man was. You needed to hear what she had to say because law enforcement would not. She called in the tip line, called the sheriff directly, no one would listen to her. Now did Ron Pexa have anything to do with the demise of Molly Tibbetts? We don't know. But what we do know is that no one investigated him. There were separate tips.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Someone called in, called him a maniac. Someone said he had a torture room. That didn't come from Jamie's life. But what Trent Villa to do with that? You know, we would walk around and we talked to him a little bit. Didn't document it in a report. Didn't document it in video or audio recording. It's because he was taking care of his own. Ron Pexa is a cop.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Christian Bahena, in his statement, was taking care of his own. He was protecting his daughter and his daughter's mother. But let's talk about 460th Avenue. 460th Avenue, I would submit to you, was not just some random place. Ron Peck's house is on there. Now whether or not he had anything to do with it, we don't know.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What we do know is that people were calling him with tips that he was some sort of sexual deviant. It was known. What we also know is that officers met with Darien Davis, who was mowing that cemetery on 460th Street. We know that Darien Davis associates with Jackson Eichhorn.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The testimony was that Jackson Eichhorn was in the cemetery in Brooklyn, and one of his stories was he was helping Darien Davis mow at the time Molly Tibbets was jogging that night. Ironic. that this guy happens to be mowing two different cemeteries, both where Molly Tibbets is associated? I don't think so.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not saying Mr. Davis has anything to do with it, but people knew those two cemeteries were connected. 460th Avenue is not a coincidence. The 2384, again, less than a mile from where Molly was found, four buckle swabs just on the other side. of Ron Peck's house were taken by Agent Bublitz at the FBI direction and never tested.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The route taken by Christian Bahena after Molly was abducted was straight down 200th Street, hard left, and then down through this 430-foot driveway and through long grass to this cornfield. This man had no idea where he was going. That route was direct. Five or six miles south, two and a half miles east, then 110 yards in. That is not coincidence. He would have no idea where this was.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was directed to go there. We think Kristen's confession, or his statement, wasn't accurate. It was false. You see here, he fell asleep three different times. Once more, he's getting pressed. False sleep again. getting pressed after hours and hours. It was an 11-hour interrogation. He was isolated from his family. He was driven to the sheriff's office and not allowed to bring his own vehicle.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Police indicated that confessing might lead to a more lenient sentence. Help yourself, Christian. Police firmly stated... I didn't object.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Fries, at this time, you may give your closing on behalf of Mr. Behina.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We didn't know anything about that. But like Agent Villita said, within five to seven days, he had the, quote, unlimited resources of the federal government with the FBI. Think about that. Think about that. That is unprecedented. Unprecedented. Now, why do I tell you that? I tell you that because I want to harken back to Mr. Claver's opening statement.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's not the evidence. I don't believe there's been anybody testifying to that. The client did, Your Honor. Overruled. Go ahead. Proceed, Mr. Chris.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Our client said very clearly... that they said, help yourself. Police firmly stated that the evidence against Christian was overwhelming, therefore resistance was futile. He was deliberately picked up at the end of the day and deliberately interrogated during the time where he would have been sleeping. They lied to him. They employed trickery or dishonesty.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They said, we're not here from immigration, and they called immigration. They suggested psychological excuses for the offense. That's where the blackout comes. They took steps to enhance their authority while interrogating the suspect. That's where Trent Valetta gets right in his face. They put three people in his space.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They made Christian think that one or more interrogators were Christian's friends and were trying to help him or her. Or him in this case. Character evidence. You heard a lot of people talking about Christian Bahena. His cousin, Wadi Makar, he paid it on time. First of the month. People said he was not a violent person. This would not be like him. He didn't want to be detected.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He just wanted to take care of his family, take care of his daughter, work hard. This makes no sense. Every one of those people who testified were credible, they were believable, and buttressed everything this man said in his credible testimony. If the evidence of such good character as the non-violence is good enough,
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
together with all the other evidence to raise a reasonable doubt as to his guilt, he must be acquitted. If these people's testimony is that believable, and I submit it is, you must acquit him when you couple that with their lack of evidence. Folks, that's the verdict form you're going to get. The judge has instructed you on how to deliberate and what your verdict must be.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We acknowledge that. We sympathize with her family. We offer empathy to them. This young lady was on her way to being someone special. No doubt about it. Absolutely no doubt about it. The loss of Molly Tibbetts is tragic. Absolutely tragic. And the reason I mentioned that. It's because the loss of someone like that can evoke a lot of emotion. And it has evoked emotion.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We submit it should be not guilty. So remember, That man right there is the one you have to judge. That man. The father, the son, the man who come here to make a better life for those around him. He's not a monster. You saw him testify. You saw him credibly testify. This case was closed. This case is police logic 101, okay? Police logic 101 is opposite of the analysis that you have to do
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The analysis you have to do is you take all the evidence that you've heard and you boil it down and you determine if that evidence produces guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That's not what the police did. What the police did is they had four weeks of nothing and then they picked this man.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who better to pick than an undocumented immigrant who doesn't speak the language, who has nobody here to speak of, to help him out. And then you cherry pick the facts that fit your theory and you close the case. Case closed, but the case is not solved. Folks, there is serious doubt in this case. Serious doubt.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Christian Bahena Rivera has not had the case against him proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And the only verdict that you can come up with under these facts, and what you heard right there is not guilty. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, on behalf of the state of Iowa, you may give your rebuttal. Can we approach, please? Yes. You may proceed.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I know we're into the lunch hour, so I'm not going to try to take a lot of time, but there are a few things I have to touch on that relates to issues that were raised here by Mr. Freeze in his closing. So the first thing I want to do is talk about an investigation. There was an allegation here that there was a pressure to close the case.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In his opening statement, he said that the DCI comes in town and they kick off an extensive investigation. He tells you the DCI is in town, the FBI is in town, Homeland Security is in town, and every lead came up empty after what he called exhaustive and intensive investigations. Four weeks, you heard they were canvassing, they were searching everywhere. You saw the map with all the red dots.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The officers that worked this case, Agent Valletta, other agents from the DCI that worked it, worked this case, worked every angle, worked every lead. There's pressure to close any case whenever they have somebody, particularly like Molly Tibbetts or any other person who's been the victim of a violent crime. But the pressure to close the case doesn't mean they go out and create their own evidence.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If that were true, why wouldn't they just go ahead and do that right at the beginning? Go point the finger at somebody else. Do something. Create something. Plant something. That's not what they did. They go and chase the leads. They look at Molly's inner circle. They look at Dalton. They look at people who know her. They search 622 West Des Moines.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They're looking for signs of violence, signs of breaking and entering, things of that nature. They don't find it. They're trying to shake this tree as hard as they can to see if there's any leads that fall, and there's not. Until when? Until they get the video. That's the lead that breaks this case. They follow it. They find the defendant. They bring him in. He makes the admissions he makes.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The blood is in the trunk. What are the officers supposed to do? Start looking at Ron Pexa? Start going out and just checking other people to see if maybe, you know, they had something to say about it? I mean, come on.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The officers in this case, the agents in this case, the deputy sheriffs, the FBI agents, all the people who were involved followed the evidence, and that's what we're asking you to do. The defendant was not targeted. That's a word that Mr. Freeze used. The defendant here was not targeted, all right? The evidence led officers to him. The video evidence led officers to Christian Bahena-Rivera.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They didn't target him. He targeted himself. by becoming involved in this. No knife. I think he's mentioning this from 622 West Des Moines in the weapons. It's not a crime scene. And by the way, there's no evidence that Blake Jack or Dalton Jack are involved. Goodness, they ran Dalton Jack to the ground in this case. They interviewed him multiple times. They looked at him, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They found out what his history was, that he'd had this brief fling with another girl named Jordan. And by the way, when you're 18 years old, it's not like he's, I've been married 32 years and I got three kids, okay? That'd be a lot different, let me tell you, okay? But he's a kid, right? What do you do if you're not getting along with your girlfriend? You break up with her, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You don't take her out in the country and stab her to death. Does that make sense to you? Goodness. The primary crime scene, we don't know. Well, guess who had control of that? This guy. All right, who's got control of the Malibu for almost four-plus weeks? The defendant, right? He's got control of Molly Tibbetts. He controls where she went. He controls where her body got dumped.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He controls what the physical evidence is in his trunk. He does. The reason why we don't have whatever a primary crime scene is, is because of the defendant. You have to factor that in. Motive.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
not angry are you serious he told us he was angry the words came from his mouth the defendant is a yes man not yesterday he wasn't he gave you a whole new story mr freeze touched on that about iris gamboa about his daughter about all of those things we'll talk about that here in just a second He's not a yes man yesterday. That's for sure. So tell law enforcement then about these other two men.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right? So you're in a place where you can be protected. So tell them. I mean, you have multiple officers at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office. You're probably one of the most secure places in the county. You know, he's there with law enforcement. He could ask for help. All he has to say is, okay, listen, guys, I know, I think I know what happened.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and they had nothing, okay? Imagine the pressure to close this case. Imagine the pressure to put this case to bed, because that's the context in which this arrest and this charge happened. Every lead, Mr. Claver said in his opening, came up empty. Absolutely right. Some of the investigation was sloppy, but it really got sloppy when Christian Bahena-Rivera got targeted because folks
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's these other two guys, these other masked men that are covered that were in my house, right? I don't really know who they are. I'm scared for my daughter. I'm scared for Iris. Can you please help me? If you help me, if you get them here, I'll tell you what I know. But he didn't do that. You know why? Because it didn't happen. Why use Pamela Romero?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let me tell you what the flip side of this would be. So let's say officers went in, like the picture that you saw, with Agent Valletta and the FBI agent. Neither speaks Spanish. Or we have somebody else. There was a mention of Jeff Fink, who was an officer from Iowa City who's not a native speaker. So let's say we try, you know, Officer Romero, you're just not experienced enough, okay?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
By the way, you saw her testify. She's impressive. young woman, right? I mean, she did a phenomenal job in recounting what the defendant said. The whole interview is in Spanish, but why not take advantage of a native speaker? Why not do that? Then we have a clean conversation. It's not going through an interpreter. You know, there's none of that. You have it.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And she can then come out and say, this is what he said. That's why we didn't show you the video. It's in Spanish. Doesn't that make sense? If we had used Officer Fink or if we had used Agent Valletta, then it would be, oh, hey, wait a second. Didn't they have a native speaker right there? Why not use Officer Romero? We know she's not experienced, but why not use her? The flip would just be true.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But the officers chose to use the native speaker that knew Spanish, that was her first language, so she could understand what the defendant was was telling her and relay that to investigators. You know, he wasn't so worn down that he couldn't lead them to Molly Tibbetts. That's true. Yeah, he does. They give him rest, by the way.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think Officer Romero talks about nine times that they took breaks during the day. So it's not like an 11-hour interview where he's got somebody in his grill the whole night. I mean, he's sitting there at a table. He does get a chance to take a break. He gets a chance to eat. They're good to him in that sense.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They are asking him hard questions, which I would hope officers would do under these circumstances. Dalton Jack, listen, Dalton Jack was in Dubuque, okay? He was working there actually the day before. I think he was in Iowa County working. That's what his boss said this morning. But Dalton Jack is in Dubuque. You know, phone records, people put in there.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
By the way, if he's off at 7, right, how's he going to get back?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
to do anything and he's going to have to what take Christian Rivera's car if somebody has no idea and what go and chase down Molly where he doesn't know where she is and what he's going to teleport himself back here in you know less than an hour I mean it's over a two-hour drive from where he was working to here plus he had no reason no reason if the defendant's DNA is in his trunk the response is of course it is
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If we would have found Christian Rivera's DNA in the trunk, of course it is. It's his car. It's a push. It's like the fingerprints that they talked about a little bit later. People can touch things and fingerprints can be there. It was on items that were in the trunk. The fingerprint expert doesn't know where they come from, doesn't know how they got there.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They're not associated other than being in the trunk. They could also be Molly Tibbetts', by the way. Remember, hers are so destroyed that because she was decomposed. And then, so it means nothing. All these things that Mr. Freeze brings up have to matter, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's poking holes, punching at our case, telling you these things, but whenever you sit back there, if you evaluate them, they have to matter. Ron Pexa is 6'7". He doesn't describe the men in his house that tall. Totally inconsistent with that. Ulysses Felix, where is he?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's no evidence that he's associated with Ron Pex or Dalton Jack or anybody else that they're throwing stones at over here with regard to who may be involved. There is no false confession, for goodness sakes. If the defendant falsely confesses, how does he take them to Molly Tibbetts? He knows where she's at.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's the one piece of evidence in this case, the one circumstance that completely cuts that argument down to the ground. So motive. There was another motive here, a sexual one that we know about, that we can look at. This is the document that shows the crime scene diagram. Molly Tibbetts' body, if you recall, her legs were spread apart and her knees were up.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What happened here was they closed a case. They didn't solve a case. To coin a phrase from Agent Villita, in his mind, Christian Bahena cleared Rod and Pexa. I would expand on that. In his mind, Christian Bahena closed the case. Good enough for them. Let's close the case, shut the book, get everybody out of here, and we're done. But they didn't solve the case.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and her underwear and her shorts were off. They were in a different spot. Her jogging bra is pushed up around her neck, all right? The defendant says, that he left her with her clothes on. That is clearly not true. The defendant says, before we get to that, he also says in his interview that she is hot or attractive.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The way that it was interpreted by Romero was that Molly Tibbetts, that he said that she was hot. That's why he was encountering her because he found her attractive. That's why he chased her down. That's why he stopped on the road, right? He saw a pretty girl and it drew his attention.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly is found with no shorts or underwear, her jogging bra like I said is pushed up around her neck and her legs are spread apart. That would all suggest a sexual motive here. Guess who does not have a sexual motive? Dalton Jack or anyone else that's been raised here by the defense. The defendant
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
wanted to encounter Molly Tibbetts by his own admission because he said that she was hot or attractive. And we have physical evidence at the scene that would suggest that there is also a sexual motive here that corroborates the defendant's involvement. She was found in that condition under the corn stalks and he testified that she was clothed.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He kept, that's what he said, but we know that's not true. Look at the corn stalks. They're not disturbed. Look at it. There they are. The corn stalks don't appear to have been disturbed. The testimony, his testimony cannot be true based upon the evidence near Molly.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Which means the sexual motive is there, that her clothes were off, that he took them off, that he was there by his own admission, and we have physical evidence at the scene of the clothes being off and the corn stalks not being disturbed. It all provides another reason, which excludes other people. So why consider it Again, I've mentioned this already. Why consider a sexual motive here?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's another circumstance that removes Dalton Jack, who they pointed the finger at repeatedly in this case, or anyone associated with him. It also excludes the two phantom men story. By the defendant's own admission, there was no sexual motive there. There was no evidence of that. So these two phantom men that show up at his apartment that he can't identify, Exclude it, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, it supports it. It supports the sexual motive. These guys didn't have that. Dalton Jack didn't have that. It's consistent with the defendant's statement to Pamela Romero that he found her attractive, that he had found her hot. That's why he encountered her on the roadside. All right, the defendant's testimony here is unbelievable.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Freeze has touched on some of this with regard to Iris Gamboa, to the daughter. Let's look at that. Why would he create a new story? Okay, why would he do that? He had the opportunity, by the way, to sit here in this case, to view the evidence, to think about the evidence. He knows DNA puts him or puts Molly in the trunk of his vehicle. He now knows that.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He did not know that at the time of the interview with Pamela Romero. He now knows multiple videos place him near Molly within seconds of running through the area. whenever she was on boundary. We see his car within about 25 or 30 seconds after that. He knows after setting through all this evidence, he's under a pretty big rock, right? And he's got to come up with something else.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's got to come up with a story to describe or explain away why he led the officers to the body, right? So what's he come up with? What's the context of this? He's now seen all the evidence against him. His statement with Romero ended with him charged with murder.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They didn't get enough evidence to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Mr. Claver, in his opening statement, also told you that they found a video of the Malibu. That was good police work. That was good police work. We're not going to suggest to you that Christian Bahena-Rivera's Malibu was on that video. That was him. He testified to that. You saw him on the stand.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
right he he tried to give them a story he told them what happened right which is probably is a lot closer to the truth but now he knows that got him charged he finds out later as mr freeze pointed out that the dna didn't come in until later that it is all that molly's blood is in the trunk he has had access to all the evidence in this case he's had had access to the video he knows his car puts him here there
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he knows all that. That's the context here that we're dealing with. The defendant's testimony that two men killed Molly is totally unsupported by any other evidence in the case. Totally. He says that the two men that showed up at his house or his trailer are covered head to toe. He can't ID them, right? He covers them completely. This is the middle of July, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he says they're in sweaters and pants with stocking hats that cover their face. He can't identify them, right? Is that believable? The other thing that might identify these men is the vehicle that they were driving. He never puts them in a car. They just randomly select him out of thin air and they appear out of nowhere to select him as the person And then what?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They hang out at the trailer for a while. He's not real specific about that. And then not only do they appear out of nowhere, then they vanish into thin air once they get out to the field. and he can't identify them. It's simply not believable. These phantom men, think about this, leave the only eyewitness to a murder.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They are attacking Molly Tibbetts on the road, that's what he said to you, whenever he testified, and they stabbed her and they put her in the trunk. Why not kill him? Why not take him out? There's no connection between these two. They leave the only eyewitness with a vehicle, according to him. They leave these phantom men, leave him with a cell phone. That's what he said. Actually, two.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think he says Molly's cell phone is in the trunk as well. So they just vanish out of thin air, walk away in a cornfield after killing this young woman, and they leave him with transportation and a cell phone. That makes no sense at all. Why would they do that? Why would they even involve him? Why not just take out Christian Bahena Rivera right there with Molly? They've got a gun.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They've got a knife. Take him out. Pile his body into the cornfield. Why not do that? Why do they need him in the first place? It makes no sense. He's not thinking about that. You know why it doesn't make sense? Because it's not true. It's not true. He conveniently threw us in the name Jack. Did you catch that yesterday, whenever he was testifying?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One of the guys, I think, is in the back seat, and one of the guys says, come on, Jack. So the one guy that they're pointing the finger at, the chief one, happens to have that last name, he throws that in. You've got to ask yourself if that makes any sense at all, or is he just trying to point the finger at Dalton Jack to say that's who it was that was there and that took Molly on the roadside.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They have spent parts of two days in this trial trying to identify Dalton Jack as the person with the motive and the opportunity to kill Molly. Dalton Jack is alibied, ladies and gentlemen. He did not do this. He didn't. He's working in Dubuque. So now his boss is going to come in here and make up records and not be truthful with you? For what? Why would he do that? Why?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Or that was him driving that car. We'll give you that. Absolutely was him. He said...
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, Dalton Jack is alibi. He's working. He's working on a bridge. He got off at 7. He went back to the motel. He grew up with his co-workers. Dalton Jack is alibi. Dalton Jack did not do this. If other men...
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
killed molly which is what the defense has put on here what purpose would it serve then to include the following statements here we've already talked about this in my first close but what would it serve to include the following in these statements to the police that molly had rebuked him that molly had you didn't want anything to do with him that molly had threatened to call the police and that he was angry how does that fit in with the what he claims is the real narrative
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that miss tibbett's blood was in christian's malibu in the trunk that's true too we aren't going to dispute that at all he didn't mention to you that there was a mixture of blood in the trunk and they talked about christian's quote-unquote admissions or what mr brown called a confession which we wholeheartedly disagree with what is missing In this case, that's really what you got to look at.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that these two unknown men that were masked grabbed her and made him take her to the cornfield. It doesn't fit. There's no reason to offer it. He's trying to offer a reason to the officers. as to why that happened. These statements only fit with nobody else present and with what the evidence was whenever he testified first that there were not two other men in the car and that he acted alone.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There is no evidence here that he told Iris Gamboa anything about a threat. He testified here. The reason why he didn't tell the officers about the two men that came to his trailer that he can't identify is because They had threatened Iris, and they had threatened his daughter. Iris Gamboa testified. Did you hear any testimony from her? They just called by the defense.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Any testimony from her that, oh yeah, he told me? He told me what happened? He was fearful for my safety? He was fearful for our daughter's safety? He didn't say a word about it. There's no evidence in this case that he took any steps to protect his child or Iris. Iris never testified about a threat. So ask yourself, why? My suggestion is it didn't happen. There was no threat.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were no two men. He's made these men up. He's trying to get out from underneath that very big rock. He had a chance in this case to tell the police about the two men. He chose not to do that, if you're taking any of his statements as true that he testified to yesterday. The sheriff's office is a well-protected place. He had a chance to tell the officers that.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was even encouraged multiple times by Officer Romero. Is there more? Is there more? She keeps coming back to him. He has plenty of opportunity to do it and he chooses not to do that. Why did he choose not to do that? He claims to protect his daughter and his girlfriend who he had his daughter with. The best place to get that protection would be from the police and he didn't do it.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You know why he didn't do it? Because it did not happen that way.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that's what it proves all right these are the elements of murder in the first degree each of these elements has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt all of the evidence here points to one person and that is the defendant christian bahena rivera no one else had a reason to kill molly tibbets his reason is not a good one like i said before
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When would it ever be a good idea or you would ever, ever have a good reason to kill somebody in this way? But that's what happened. And he told us that's what happened. He was angry. He was rejected. And he got angry at her and he killed her. That's what cost Molly Tibbetts her life. The video, the confession, and the physical evidence in this case tell the story. There should be no...
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
reasonable doubt in your mind. Looking at all this evidence, you must be firmly convinced. I would encourage you to use your common sense. Look at this case. Judge it with your backgrounds. Look at it. Evaluate it. We welcome that. Use your common sense whenever you look at this and at the end of the day, right, at the end of all of that, ask yourself, are you firmly convinced?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Are you firmly convinced that Christian Bahena-Rivera murdered Molly Tibbetts? The evidence in this case, there's a mountain of it. It is overwhelming. And it leads you to the only conclusion. You follow it, follow it down the path. All of the evidence in this case. Christian Bahena-Rivera took this young woman's life. This is Molly. He took her. He committed the murder. Why?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is missing? Because there's a lot missing in this case. We don't have a murder weapon. No murder weapon ever was discovered in this case. And it wasn't for lack of looking, at least as it pertains to Christian Bahena-Rivera. They found a folding knife at his trailer. They sent it into the DCI lab, tested it. No blood. No blood. They found another knife, black knife. Sent that in. No blood.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why would this happen? Because he's angry? Because he wants to have some sort of relationship with her? Because he finds her hot or attractive? Goodness, that's what happened. Molly's no longer on this planet because of the defendant. All of the evidence here points to one verdict. The defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera, is guilty of murder in the first degree.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what your verdict should be after your deliberations in this case. Christian Bahena-Rivera is guilty of the first degree murder of Molly Tibbetts. That is your verdict. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At this time, Mr. Bahena, I'm going to ask that you rise along with your attorneys, please. And I would ask that the court attendant read the jury's verdict.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We, the jury, find the defendant, Christian Bahena Rivera, guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Today is the date and time set for sentencing in this matter. Mr. Brown, do you know of any legal reason why we should not proceed to sentencing here today?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, Your Honor.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do either one of the freezes know any reason why we should not proceed to sentencing here today? No, Your Honor. Mr. Bahena-Rivera, let me ask you, do you know of any reason why we should not proceed with your sentencing here today?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'll begin then with the state regarding the matter of sentence and punishment. Mr. Brown, do you have anything you'd like to say and or victim impact statement?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judge, it's my understanding that victim impact statement should come after allocution of the defendant. Is that correct? Sure. All right. As far as a recommendation on behalf of the state, I know the court is aware that this has been a very long haul in this case. It's been a little bit over three years since Molly
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
was found in august of 2018 and a little bit longer than that when her life was taken by the defendant the jury here convicted the defendant of the crime of murder in the first degree as the court is aware there is no discretion in sentencing mr bahana rivera is going to be sentenced to life without the possibility of parole
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I would tell the court that based upon the facts and circumstances of this case, it is very well deserved. The facts and circumstances in this case, as the court knows, you step through the trial, you know what the evidence is in this case, were overwhelming as it relates to the defendant.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And quite honestly, Judge, there's a victim impact statement from the mother of Molly Tibbets, Laura Calderwood. that if the court needs any further justification for why that sentence is warranted in the state of Iowa, should look no further than that victim impact statement that she provided to the court that will be read a little bit later.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we would ask the court impose that mandatory sentence upon the defendant. We would also ask that you order an amount of $150,000 pursuant to Iowa Code Section 903b since this crime involved the death of Molly Tibbetts. and that the file is quite thick in this case.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't know if there's been other pecuniary damage statements that have been filed, but if there are, we would ask that you enter an order at that amount, and also if you can, leave it open an additional 30 days for us to finalize any other amounts that the court may order as it relates to any pecuniary damages that would be warranted pursuant to statute.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So with that, Judge, we would ask that you impose that sentence and, again, indicate to the court that we feel that it is very well justified. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Mr. Brown. Mr. Fries, on behalf of Mr. Bahena-Rivera, anything you wish to say at this time?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your Honor, given the mandatory nature of the sentence, we have nothing to say.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you. Mr. Bahena Rivera, you're not required to say anything to me, but I want to afford you the opportunity. Do you have anything you wish to say to me prior to my announcing what I'm going to do here today? No, thank you. With that then, we may proceed to the victim impact statement.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judge, we have just one victim impact statement. It's from Laura Calderwood, who is the mother of Molly Tibbetts. It will be read by Sarah Arms, who is the victim witness coordinator in my office.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera, I come here today not because I feel the need to address you. However, I come here to give a voice to our daughter, granddaughter, sister, girlfriend, niece, cousin, and friend, Molly Cecilia Tibbetts. Molly was a young woman who simply wanted to go for a quiet run on the evening of July 18th, And you chose to violently and statistically end that life.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Nothing. However... Think way back to when Tara Scott talked about her initial crime scene analysis. Remember, she went to 622 West Des Moines Street. A couple days after Molly went missing, they sent the DCI crime scene team up, and they looked at the home at 622 West Des Moines Street. And they looked at it very, very closely. And what did she note?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I want to address the chain of events you set off on the morning of August 18th after you led authorities to Molly's remains in a cornfield. Do you know what it's like, Mr. Rivera, to be woken up by your youngest son, Scott, telling you the sheriff needs to talk to us?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
scott and i stood in the entrance of our home where sheriffs tom creagle and matt mushman stood with tears in their eyes it took them a minute to find the words to say we hoped for a different results however we found molly's remains today i thanked them for their service and they left because there was still a lot of work to be done i led scott
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
whose eyes were brimming with tears to the living room and sat him down on the couch. Scott, I said, I am so sorry. I'm gonna call Aunt Billy over to the house to be with you because mom has a lot of work to do. Next, I needed to tell my son Jake. Jake was in his apartment in Iowa City and I did not want him to hear that his sister was not coming home on the news.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Knowing my sister Kim was headed to Iowa City for work, I called her and said, Kim, they found Molly's remains this morning and I need you to pick Jacob and bring him home. It was a race against the clock to notify all the people who cared so deeply for Molly that she was not coming home. It was very important to notify the people who cared deeply about Molly so they did not hear this on the news.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Imagine what it's like to call Molly's father, Rob, who resides in Fresno, California and say, Rob, I am so sorry to have to tell you this, but they found Molly's remains this morning and I need you to come back to Iowa. Can you imagine Mr. Riviera as a father having Paulina's mother taken away from you and to have to tell your daughter that she will never come home? However,
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The most difficult person to tell was Molly's grandmother and my mother, Judy Calderwood. Judy truly believed her granddaughter would be found alive because who could harm such a beautiful, vibrant, young woman so full of life and promise? Who could harm Judy's precious granddaughter, let alone brutally murder her and dump her body in a cornfield?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This was heartbreaking news that needed to be delivered in person. I entered my mother's home and she greeted me with a big smile and asked if I wanted a cup of coffee. There certainly was no easy way to tell her the news. However, it had to be done before her phone started ringing with loved ones sending their condolences. I very quietly and softly said, mom, I have some bad news.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They found Molly's body this morning. But we know where she is now. Judy Calderwood's unwavering faith had been brutally shattered by your senseless act of violence. Can you imagine Mr. Rivera sitting across the table from your Madre and telling her Paulina is never coming home? I am aware that you know Ulysses Felix Sandoval and his family.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She noted in the hallway there was a gun safe with a number of guns in it. But of particular note was a... loaded pistol, loaded pistol in a little cabinet hanging on the wall with several knives, hunting style knives. Some of them were folding knives. Bet you if they went and looked, they may have found them with a camouflage handle, but they didn't bother to look. Why?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yuli, as I call him, was a classmate and a friend of my son Scott. Do you know Yuli was at the press conference where authorities announced that you, Christian Bahena-Rivera, had been charged with the murder of Molly Tibbetts? Yuli immediately started crying, but knew that he needed to call his madre before she heard it on the news. The Felix-Sandoval family was devastated.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How could this young man they fed and fostered be responsible for such a heinous crime? Do you know, Mr. Rivera, that Yuli's parents had to leave Brooklyn because they were receiving death threats? Do you know Yuli lived in our home for his last year of high school so he could finish his senior year and play sports? However, Yuli's parents did not get to experience his senior year with him.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
because of your senseless act. Because of your act, your then employer, Craig Lane, lost all his employees because those workers were afraid of what would happen to them. Because of your act, Dalton Jack will never get to give Molly the engagement ring he had purchased for her. Because of your act, Molly's father, Rob, will never get to walk his only daughter down the aisle.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because of your act, Mr. Rivera, I will never get to see my daughter become a mother. I do hope one day Paulina has the opportunity to become a mother, but how will she ever explain to her children who their grandfather is? This is the legacy you left behind for your only child, Mr. Rivera. I don't know whose situation is worse.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Based on the The jury's guilty verdict entered on the 28th day of May 2021. It is the finding of this court that the defendant is guilty and has now ordered a judge to decree that the defendant is guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahino-Rivera, I want to inform you that I've considered all the sentencing options provided for in chapters 901 and 907 of the Iowa Code, and my judgment relative to sentence is based on that which provides maximum opportunity for your rehabilitation, at the same time protecting the community from further offenses by you and others. Mr. Bahino-Rivera, you and you alone
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
forever change the lives of those who love Molly Timmons. And for that, you and you alone will receive the following sentence. It is the order and judgment of this court acting pursuant to the provisions of Section 902 of the Code of Iowa that the defendant B is hereby committed to the custody of for a lifetime sentence with no eligibility for parole.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It is further ordered that the Iowa Medical and Classification Center at Oakdale, Iowa is designated as a reception center to which the defendant is to be delivered by the sheriff of Poweshe County or his designee. The court further orders as follows. The defendant shall pay $150,000 to the heirs at law of Mollie Tibbetts pursuant to Iowa Code Section 81.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You are required to submit a DNA sample pursuant to the request of the state. The state is given 30 days from today's date to file any restitution statements or clarify any that have been filed. And once that is filed, should there be any, the defense will then have 15 days to file any objections. Again, should there be any.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena Vera, I've selected this particular sentence for you after considering the nature of the offense committed by you, the harm to the victim and the victim's family, your need for rehabilitation, and the necessity for protecting the community from further offenses by you and others.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because they'd already made up their mind. We'll get to more of that later. What else don't they have? They don't have a primary crime scene. They don't have a primary crime scene. Where was Molly Tibbetts killed? Was she killed on 385th Street? Did someone stab her nine to 12 times?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Along the blacktop where she was jogging, someone stabbed her in the throat or do the slashing motion of the throat and stab her several times in the rib and then penetrate her skull on 385th Street where you heard about where all these houses are and the cars that were traveling out there and they talked to darn near, I would submit, everyone on 385th Street and they didn't find her.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One piece of evidence, not any blood. They had it narrowed down. We saw the map of the cell phone technology. They had a pretty small window as to where they'd find something. They send any type of canines out there to find blood. Oh, the weather was bad. I forgot. It was humid. It was hot. It had rained. I mean, they have an excuse for every piece of evidence they don't have.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that can be a problem when you are sitting as a juror. Because when you're sitting as a juror, emotions have no place in that deliberation room. You don't decide this case based upon emotions. You don't decide this case with emotions tugging at your heartstrings. It's not your job to right a wrong. It's not your job to impart vengeance. It's not your job to bring justice for Molly.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But they don't have a primary crime scene. Or was she killed on the 460th Avenue address? Did someone take her 430 feet back in this location and kill her there? We don't know. What investigation did they do to find a primary crime scene next to the cornfield? Or was she killed right there in the cornfield? I highly doubt that. I highly doubt someone killed her right in the rows of corn
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and there wasn't some other evidence there to establish that. We don't have a primary crime scene. Well, they'll pass it off and explain it away by, oh, it's been five weeks, the weather was bad, the corn was tall. You know, they'll find an excuse for everything. That's not Mr. Bahena's problem. That's their problem. They have to prove it, not him. Okay?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had the unlimited resources of the federal government. They had drones up in the air. They brought a guy in from Dayton, Ohio for the sole purpose of analyzing the data from one cell phone. And that's the evidence they put on here. They had unlimited resources. Unlimited resources. Mr. Claver told you in the opening statement his sheriff was up flying around in a helicopter.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And they can't even tell you where she was killed. No evidence come off that stand as to where she was killed. None. No forensic evidence at all. They don't have an eyewitness. They have no witnesses. Zero. None. They talk about a confession. We're going to get to that in a little bit. But we dispute greatly that what they attribute to Christian Bahena as a statement...
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Your Honor. May it please the court. Counsel. Mr. Brown, Mr. Klaver. Molly Tibbetts is truly an innocent victim. She was absolutely an innocent victim here. No doubt about it. This young woman was a spectacular young woman. She was destined to do great things. She was destined to become the change that she wanted to see in the world. She was just about to spread her wings and fly.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
can be characterized as a confession. Absolutely cannot be. Absolutely cannot be. Motive. Now motive, Mr. Brown talked about, but you really have to use your common sense here, folks. You really gotta think about this one. This man, this man, right here, five foot seven inch, 125 pound illegal immigrant, undocumented immigrant,
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He gets angry at Molly Tibbetts, who he had never met before, who he was trying to get to know, if you believe that story, and resorts to killing her, stabbing her nine times, or maybe 12, three more times, because he's angry. The only evidence they have of his anger... is the story he gave Pamela Romero.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The evidence we do have about Christian Bahena is that he's not an angry man, that he's not violent, that he's a family man, he's hardworking. He came to this country for a reason, and you can bet he wanted to stay in this country. And the concept that he got angry and killed a woman who he had just met defies any logic. Folks, we've all been rejected in our lives. We've all...
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
perhaps have walked up to someone, had the courage to ask them on a date, or had the courage to try to get to know someone, and been told no. May have been told no in an epic way. Been embarrassed by that person. Common sense tells you that you aren't gonna just stab that person, let alone a person like Molly Tibbetts. It makes no sense. They have no motive as to why this man
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
would commit that act. And then they have no scientific evidence that connects him to the killing. They want to talk about the trunk. They want to talk about the cornfield. Both of which, we admit, having her in the trunk and putting her in the cornfield does not mean he killed her. Think about that. The burden of proof is on the state. to prove all that.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that, folks, when you look at what's missing, is a reasonable doubt. What is a reasonable doubt? A reasonable doubt, long and short of it is, the judge will tell you that if after a fair and full consideration of all the evidence, or lack, lack of evidence, okay, if they don't produce the evidence, that's just like evidence you can consider. Lack of evidence. Produced by the state.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena doesn't have to produce anything. He doesn't have to tell the state anything when he has the opportunity. He doesn't have to, when he's questioned, tell the state about these two masked men. It's not his obligation. It's their obligation to prove it. Don't let them shift anything. Don't let them oversimplify and make it sound like he has to do anything. Their burden.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You have to be firmly convinced of his guilt as to each and every element, all four, in order to convict him. If not, you must find him not guilty. Now what does firmly convinced mean? Good question. You're not going to find anywhere in those instructions where it's defined what firmly convinced means. You have to determine for yourself what that means.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She deserves justice, absolutely. It's not your job. Your job is to do justice. Period. Full stop. Your job is to provide a logical, analytical, almost surgical and mechanical application of what you heard here and the instructions, and that's it. The analysis is simple. The analysis is not whether you go back in that room and decide, I think he did it.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would suggest to you that in your deliberations, To be firmly convinced, you're going to need to know that Christian Bahena did this. You can't just think he did this. You must know that based upon the evidence that they have produced, that he killed Molly Tibbetts, that he committed this crime, and that the state has proven these elements. You best know. You best not think.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's the difference between whether or not you're firmly convinced. Instruction 14 defines murder in the first degree. Element number two is that Molly Tibbets died as a result of being stabbed. We admit that. There's no doubt about that. Somebody stabbed her, and as a result of those stab wounds, she's dead. No problem. But the state has monumental issues with one, three, and four.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Monumental issues. We'll go through those. Element 1. What evidence has the state produced to prove Element 1? They have a drop of blood on the trunk seal. And look at that photo. The drop of blood is a centimeter. I mean, it's small. Okay? They have her DNA in the trunk and her body in the cornfield that Christian took them to. Okay? All facts that we don't dispute. He testified to that.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But what must you believe to establish element number one? You must believe the testimony of Pamela Romero. Okay? Now, Mr. Bahena told them enough to get them to the body. Okay? This was an 11-hour interrogation. 11 hours. Okay? After he had worked... a full day at the dairy. He works at the dairy. That's hard work.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and he is here. His name is Christian Bahena Rivera. The evidence in this case shows that the defendant and only the defendant murdered Molly Tibbetts. All of the credible evidence in this case, all of it, that there weren't two other guys That's a figment of his imagination. All of the credible evidence in this case, all of it points at him. All of it.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judges read you instructions as to what the charge of murder in the first degree is. There are four elements, four things that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. That's what we have to show. What those four elements are, what the evidence is in this case that proves that Christian Bahena-Rivera is the man who murdered Molly Tibbetts and murdered her in the first degree.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's the evidence that we're going to talk about, the evidence that you've heard over the last few days here in this courtroom. That's what we're going to talk about here. But make no bones about it, this is what it is. This is what murder in the first degree is. This is the law. The state is required to prove each of those elements beyond a reasonable doubt.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Are you firmly convinced whenever you look at this evidence? That's the question before you. Elements two, three, and four, there is really no doubt about. All right, we'll talk about them as we go through this evidence more towards the end of my presentation here, but we have to prove them. We have to prove that Molly Tibbetts died as a result of being stabbed.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dubuque and that's when we started staying in the hotel and we got in Dubuque at six o'clock that Wednesday I mean that Tuesday and worked till five o'clock and then that Tuesday we would go get groceries for grilling and everything like that then Wednesday hang on just a second you're getting just a bit ahead of me okay you let's talk about that work week that includes July 18th so two days before
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Of course we have that evidence here. We have to prove two states of mind of the defendant, that the defendant acted with what's called malice of forethought. The judge has given you that definition. We'll talk about that just a bit later.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then the fourth element that we have to prove is that the defendant willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly, and with specific intent, he acted with that specific intent to kill Molly Tibbetts. As this evidence has come in, as you have seen it, as you have heard it,
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There really is no dispute with these three elements that whoever killed Molly Tibbetts acted with malice of forethought and acted with those other states of mind in element number four. Okay? You follow me? Two through four. We're going to talk here a bit about element number one, which is really what we're going to spend most of our time talking about here this morning.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that first element is what I refer to as the identification element. that on or about the 18th day of July of 2018, the defendant stabbed Molly Tibbetts. That's what the evidence that we're going to talk about here. Was it the defendant? Was it Christian Bahena Rivera? Was it him? The basic story of what occurred that day, will focus on this particular element.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But what is the basic story of what happened on July 18th of 2018? What do we know from the evidence here, from the witnesses who have testified and come forward and taken the oath and sat in the witness chair and told you what happened? Molly Tibbetts was 20 years old. She was a University of Iowa student.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She had just finished her freshman year at the University of Iowa and she had come home for the summer. She worked at a preschool at the hospital in Grinnell. She had a boyfriend named Dalton and she was working at the job at Grinnell and she was enjoying her summer.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She lived at a house part of the time at 622 West Des Moines in Brooklyn where Dalton lived with his brother Blake and his fiancee at the time, Allie. They lived at that house. Molly would frequent the house. Sometimes she would stay there. Sometimes she would stay with her mom. That's what the evidence is in this case. Molly then went for a run. Like she did many times.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly went for a run on July 18th of 2018 at about a little bit before 7.45 p.m. You've heard testimony from people who knew her that said she liked to run. In the evening, that was her preferred time to go out for a run. We've also seen through other witnesses in this case, and they've talked about what her routes were. Sometimes she would run around town. Sometimes she would run out on 385th.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what she would do, right? She was a runner. She'd run cross country in high school and track, and this was one of the things that she enjoyed doing. It was on that night, on that evening of July 18th of 2018, that she ran across the defendant in his chrome mirrored, chrome handled, spoked, tired Malibu. And the evidence is in this case is that he stabbed her to death. Let's talk about that.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On July 16th of 2018, was your crew working in Iowa County? Yes. You said near the Amana colonies? Yes. And did Dalton Jack, was he included on that crew?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is what the issue here is. This is what this evidence will be focused on. Who killed Molly Tibbetts? Who stabbed her? Who killed Molly Tibbetts? Let's look at that evidence. First of all, Well, let me tell you this before I get into this. Really, there's three components to the proof that we have here in this case.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One is the surveillance video from Logan Collins' residence that was collected by DCI agents. that puts Christian Bahena-Rivera, the defendant, in the area, also puts Molly in the area at the same time. So that's one component, that video. That's what broke this case open. That's what broke this case. That's what ID'd, began to ID the defendant.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we have the video, the surveillance video from Logan Collins' residence. Right, the second thing is, whenever the defendant was interviewed, he confessed. he told Pamela Romero what he did, at least those parts that he claimed that he could remember. And then the third component to this case is the physical evidence.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The blood of Molly Tibbetts is found in the trunk of the black Chevy Malibu that the defendant was driving, that he owned, that he operated, that Ehrlich Lorenzana bought for him. He's directly connected, really exclusively, to the black Chevy Malibu.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he was. All right. Was that just a one-day job? No, it was a job I was doing in the meantime while crews were doing removals on the Dubuque job. So we had to wait for them to do their removals. And then once they had their removals done, we were going up there to form up under, to report. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So let's look first
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
at the video evidence that we have here. The video IDs him. He's confessed. Sometimes I get ahead of myself. The DNA and the blood puts him there. Molly's location and evidence surrounding her also corroborate the identification of the defendant because of the way in which she was found under the corn stalks, which he described without ever going back there with the officers later.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we have these components to the case, all of which, when you put them together, knit together a coherent story and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty. So let's look first at... The video evidence. Let's review that and let's look about that. That's the first component I talked about, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The video evidence that puts Molly and the defendant together in the same area. This is an enhanced video that we have. Play it again. There she goes. Now, we're looking at the video. Can we say that's her, that's Molly Tibbetts, just by looking at it? Of course not. We have to look at all the evidence in the case collectively.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant puts her there for sure, but that's Molly Tibbetts that's running on that video. So we now have her in the area. What time was that? On the video stamp of the video from Logan Collins' house, it was at 7.45 p.m., What do we see next within 30 seconds of Molly passing through the video of what we just saw? We see that car. Look closely at this picture. We see it more than once.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judge, we have one short rebuttal witness, Nick Wilson.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We have two other views of it. Actually, we have a fourth view of it, but we have these views here. This is Logan Collins actually on the left standing in his yard. You can see the black Malibu on the left side, and you certainly can see it here on the right whenever it passes by again. So between the hours of 7.45 p.m.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and 8.07 on the video, we see this Malibu pass through several times as Molly is on her run, all right? This is the video that broke this case open. Agent Reeson was talking to you. So did Matt George yesterday. He was one of the team of DCI agents that was working on this case. And he and Agent Reeson were looking at it.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So one day in Iowa County? Yes, Monday. And then did your crew that included Dalton Jack then move to Dubuque? Yes. And what was the job there? Specifically, where was it located? On Highway 61, right before going over into Wisconsin. Explain the type of work that you do on bridges like the one that goes over Highway 61 near Dubuque.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think it was Agent Reeson that looked away quickly and Matt George saw the shadow of the jogger go by. But that's what broke this case open. Because remember before this. What have the agents and the officers been doing? They've been spending several weeks trying to figure out what happened to her. They've been spending several weeks trying to find her. They can't find her.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The corn is overhead tall in the fields. They're up against a pretty decent challenge. Law enforcement was here to find this young woman. They've been looking. They've been talking to other people, which we will talk about here in just a few minutes. But they've been trying to figure out where she went, what she did.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had a little bit of help from the FBI, from Kevin Horan, in trying to locate an area to even search. But think about what they were up against. This is a young woman who really didn't have many enemies, if any. I'm not sure there's any testimony that Molly was disliked by anyone. She's a sweet young woman, right? She's what they called a low-risk victim.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No drug history, no domestic violence, nothing of that nature, right? This was a tough one to crack, to figure out. Who was this? Who would do this to her, right? They looked at other people. But this video, when they had it, aha, okay? A clue came in. A lead came in.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now they had a vehicle that they could associate with the area where Molly would normally run and within very close proximity to when she passed through. This was the car. And this car belonged to Christian Bahena-Rivera, the defendant. That's what got them there. I want to break for just a second. And talk about, just briefly, this man's testimony yesterday. Right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All of a sudden now we have these two men, right? He gets up and gives us this different version of what happened. You know what the problem is with it?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It doesn't make sense. And it doesn't fit.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The video evidence here refutes his testimony. he said that he and two men passed her running going into town right out on 385th they were going into town whenever she was running that's when he said they saw her the video shows the defendant on east des moines seconds after she passes through, not out on the county road. Whoops, he didn't think about that, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We've got him in town in his vehicle whenever she passes by within 30 seconds. Think about that. Right after she passes by, there is no way he could have passed her on the outskirts of town and seen her for the first time. He saw her for the first time whenever he saw her in town. That's what the video shows. He cannot be two places at once. It doesn't work. It doesn't work.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whenever he gets up on the stand and whenever he testifies and gives you this new story, these additional facts that he never told police, you can judge that the same as you do any other witness. You can scrutinize it. You can look at other evidence that we have in the case. And you know what it doesn't fit with? It doesn't fit with that video.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Wilson, good morning. Good morning. Can you please state your name for the record? Nick Wilson. And are you employed? Yes. Where do you work? Jasper Construction. Does your work take you on the road? Yes, it does. Mr. Wilson, do you know Dalton Jack? Yes, I do. How long have you known him? Five years. And did Dalton Jack ever work for Jasper Construction? Yes, he did.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Continuing about the video what happened before before they went out to the farm to talk to him so they had the video Officers were looking at it agents recent and George they passed that along to other officers in the case, right? They're trying to figure out they don't know whenever they see that video and see that car with those distinctive features with the chrome mirror and
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, we would break all the way through the bridge deck, and they have joints in the bridge that allow the bridge to move, and we had to replace those joints. So we'd bust them out, we'd reform up underneath of it, place a new joint in there, and then pour concrete all around the joint to hold it in place.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
with the chrome handles and the spoke wheels, they don't know that it belongs to Christian Bahena-Rivera. They don't know that. They can't associate it. There's black Malibus. It's a common vehicle. So they're looking. They have a lead, and they're chasing it, and they're trying to figure out who is this person that is passing by in the area where Molly Tibbetts is believed to be running.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Who is it? We gotta figure this out. Who is this person that keeps going by, right, multiple times between 746 and 807? Who is this person? We gotta try to figure this out. Well, they did. Steve Kinney, who's a police officer, is a deputy sheriff with the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office, is driving August 14th, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's driving after this video has been seen, August 16th, I believe, is driving this video, and whenever he knows the information, he knows what the car looks like, and you know what he sees? He sees this vehicle. This is a picture taken from the night that he encountered the defendant in Malcolm.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Remember, Malcolm is a town that is just north of I-80 in Poweshiek County, and Steve Kivy that evening sees this vehicle, and it's like zeroed in on it. Why? Because it has distinctive features. It has the chrome mirrors, chrome handles, the spoked wheels, but it was mainly those chrome mirrors that drew his attention, and it was black.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so Officer Deputy Kivy was ahead of the Malibu whenever he pulled off of the road and then let it pass, and then followed it, got to an alleyway, used an interpreter, and he found this vehicle with those features and who was driving. The defendant, by himself, alone. Had to use a resident there who spoke Spanish to try to communicate with him. Asked him a few questions, denied anything.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
First story, by the way, that the defendant tells about anything about Molly Tibbetts when he's asked, denies. Denies, denies. Doesn't know anything about her. So now, police have A potential suspect in this man that you see here on the right is the same guy that's sitting here in the courtroom.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant admits he's the sole person who uses the Malibu and then a plan is put together in order to try to take him in or bring him in and interview him to try to gain some information. The police still don't know. Is he connected? Maybe. His car's in the area. Now we know who it is. We need to talk to him. They're going to follow the evidence. They're going to follow the lead.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On Tuesday, July 17th, Wednesday, July 18th, and Thursday, July 19th, was Dalton Jack working with you in the city of Dubuque on the job you just described? Yes, he was. Did I ask you to go back and look at employment? pay sheets to verify hours and the presence of other crew members? Yes, you did. Did that help refresh your memory? Yes, it did. Let's talk about Wednesday, July 18th of 2018.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that's what they do. So the video here proves what? It proves the identity of the defendant, the vehicle that he's in, he later admits that it was his car, and his proximity to Molly Tibbetts. So the video and the admissions of the defendant place him in Brooklyn within seconds of Molly's sighting that we saw on the video. So why is that important? It is important because
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He is in the area within seconds. It fits with the evidence in this case. It fits with him having the opportunity to see her, to notice her. You can look at the picture of Molly Tibbetts. She is a cute 20-year-old young woman. He likes her. He sees her. She's in tight clothing as she's jogging. She's in a jogging bra and spandex-type shorts as she's jogging down the road.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what got his attention. That should be patently obvious. So the video, the first component that puts these two people, that puts the defendant together with Molly Tibbetts, is the video. It's really irrefutable.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it is the thing, the piece of evidence, the lead that the police followed that broke this case and led them to more evidence and more evidence that the defendant was the one who committed Molly Tibbetts' murder. So component number one. The second component... to this is the interview of the defendant. Several days passed, there was a weekend in between. and officers made a plan.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They got some help from federal partners in Homeland Security. They got other officers from DCI, and the plan was to go out to Yerby Farms and make an attempt to not only talk to the defendant, but talk to anybody else or make contact with anyone else who may have information or be a witness in this case, anybody that they can talk to. So they did. On August 20th, they found the defendant working.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If you recall what the evidence is in the case is that he had driven, they also wanted the black Malibu, I would tell you. That's what the evidence is here too. He was driving another car on August 20th, a Nissan Altima that he had driven. He was also in another building from where the officers were. So they had to find him. It didn't take long and they did locate him.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
so they get the the cars they also talked to him to get consent to bring the Malibu in his consent was given and the Malibu was brought into the Sheriff's Office to be examined by crime scene team so but what they did then is they then take him to the Sheriff's Office all right so we've already had one story one version out of the defendant right whenever Steve Kivy encountered him on
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
or in the alley up in Malcolm just a few days before, he denied any knowledge of Molly Tibbetts, denied knowing anything about it other than seeing it on the news and knowing that she was missing. This was obviously a very high-profile matter and a very high-profile investigation, and so he claims to have known about it. All right, so then what do we have?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We now have the defendant's what eventually becomes a confession. Confessions in Iowa need to be corroborated in order to be used as evidence. This confession is corroborated in many ways. So let's look at the defendant's statements to the police. How did it set up? Poweshiek County had used Pamela Romero because she was a native Spanish speaker. She was a police officer at the time in Iowa City.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She had prior law enforcement experience with the West Liberty Police Department here in Iowa. She was a native of Mexico. She came here when she was a young girl, when she was 10, immigrated here with her family, and moved to West Liberty. She ended up getting an interest in law enforcement, and she started that career with both West Liberty and with Iowa City.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And she was an Iowa City police officer at the time that she was utilized in this case. If you recall, she had been utilized about a month before to help with other Spanish speakers, to help interpret. By the way, something that Officer Romero did quite often was to help interpret, officer.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So she came to Poweshiek County back in July of 2018 to help with that and then she came back to then be the person who could talk to the defendant. And doesn't that make sense to have somebody like her? Why not have her? Does she have a ton of experience in law enforcement? No. But she speaks the same language as the defendant. She's a native speaker. She can have a conversation with him.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you remember that particular day? Yes, I do. Also, that week is particularly memorable to you for another reason. No. Okay. Is it the week that Molly Tibbetts went missing? Yes. Okay. So does that help you remember? Yes, it does, yes. I may have already asked you that.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant himself told you yesterday he had no problems understanding her, understanding the questions. There was no confusion. It's the same thing that Officer Romero told you. Whenever they were speaking, it was conversational, and they were able to understand each other. But what happens now in a case, though, whenever we have two native Spanish speakers talking on a video?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We would love to show you that, to play it, but we can't. I mean, we would need 12. really native Spanish speakers to come in to be able to understand it. So we have to rely on what Pamela Romero tells us the questions and answers were. You saw her on the stand. She's very well put together. She's soft spoken. She is pleasant. She was the same exact way with the defendant.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She will tell you what the conversation is that she had with the defendant while they were at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office. What statements were made and what was said during the interview. So initially, What do we get? We get the same story that the defendant had told Officer or Deputy Kivy in Malcolm days before. He didn't know anything about Molly Tibbetts' disappearance.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Knew that she was missing, had seen posters and flyers, had seen things of that nature, and had seen that in a store. I think he even said that he had maybe come into contact or had seen Dalton, the boyfriend of Molly. But what does he eventually end up telling the officers? They go through the interview, right? So it's deny.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then Officer Romero shows the defendant photos of things that we saw similarly in the videos that show the car. He now knows what? Okay, now my car's in the area. Uh-oh. So how am I gonna try to explain that one? All right, so he sees his vehicle in the area. She shows him several photos of it, and then he admits, right? He's now confronted with some evidence that puts him in the area.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now his story changes, right? It changes to, okay, yeah, I saw her, and she was jogging. And, you know, he even makes a comment about her attractiveness. I think there's some dispute as to whether or not she said hot or not. Hot, pretty, whatever it is.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
right he is talking to now talking to pamela romero officer romero about the way that molly tibbets appears all right story two okay first one was to deny second one now when shown evidence that his car is in the area he now moves to Okay, I saw her. Yeah, I did. That's my car. She's in the area. And he tells the officer. There's several points here.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, going back to Wednesday, July 18th of 2018, was Dalton Jack on the crew that was working in Dubuque on the bridge that crossed the river? Yes, he was. And on Wednesday of July 18th of 2018, what were Dalton Jack's hours?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
As we move through the interview with him, it starts out again with denial. The second one is, I saw her in the area. Then it moves to what whenever we get to the field? Lots, he confesses to the murder. is what he does, to the confrontation, to taking her, to being the only one, to taking her to the field, to her being bloody and putting her in the corn. That's what he does.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he admits to observing her and indicates she's attractive. So then what does he then start to tell Officer Romero? He tells her during this interview with her that he admits... that whenever he encountered Molly out on 385th, out on the county road, that she didn't want anything to do with him. She rebuked him, right? Molly threatened to call the police, right? He did not want that, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What does that do to him?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Makes him angry, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admits that. He admits that he became angry. Whenever he gets out of his car, he like jogs along with her. He talks to her about that or talks to Officer Romero about that. Molly then says, I'm going to call the police. I'm going to call the cops. This makes him mad. She even slaps him. He admits that she slaps him at one point.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So there's a physical confrontation between Molly Tibbetts and the defendant by his own admission. out on 385th, and he becomes angry. A very simple motive in the case to do someone harm. What does he admit next after this confrontation on the road? He then admits that Molly is in the trunk of the Malibu, and he also admits that he is alone, and he also admits that Molly's earbuds are on his lap.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those are earbuds that Dalton Jack purchased for her as a gift, right? He then admits to that, right? He puts her in the trunk. He starts driving down the road. We have corroboration of that also. We'll talk about here in just a second. But that's what he says happened, right? He's confronted this girl. He became angry. She's in his trunk. He's telling us that. There's no other two guys.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's nobody else. He doesn't put anybody else in the vehicle. He had every chance to do that. He was asked multiple times, tell us more, help us more. These officers who could protect him, right? He didn't do it, right? He didn't tell them. Instead, she's in the trunk. We know he's headed south. He admits that he's alone. He admits the earbuds are there. He admits to going to the cornfield.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection. Calling for hearsay.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admits taking Molly into the corn and he admits covering Molly with corn stalks and he discarded her and he left her in the corn after covering her with these corn stalks. He was in one of the most remote parts of Poweshiek County. And even though there is a cutout that goes back into the corn where she was found, she's over 400 feet, almost 500 feet into that cornfield.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Witness may answer.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She is unfindable other than by the defendant. So, this statement that he gave to Pamela Romero, Officer Romero. He was given multiple, multiple opportunities to tell more. particularly during the end of that conversation that they were having near the cornfield in the car whenever Pamela Romero runs him through the events and tries to get more information out of him. How are we here?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
5.30 a.m. to 7 p.m. This crew that you're working, are you in a supervisory position? Yes. Do you log their hours for them, the men on your crew? Yes, I do. They don't have anything to do with that themselves? No, they do not. Do you create a timesheet that... reflects the hours that each crew member worked? Yes, I do. And how long did Dalton Jack work specifically on July 18th of 2018?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How did we end up here? Tell us more. Does the defendant ever admit to stabbing her? He says that he blacked out. He didn't black out. He just doesn't tell her. But he told her everything about the confrontation, about how he got to the cornfield, about how she was covered. And he tells her on two occasions in the car, I brought you here. More or less, what more do you want me to tell you?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I brought you here. And he did. He led them directly to Molly Tibbetts. These cops had been searching for her for weeks. He goes right there. He tells Pamela Romero, I did it, didn't I? He claims not to remember, claims that he blacked out. He didn't black out. He tells about the confrontation. He tells about Molly being bloody in the trunk, about hauling her out to the corn, about covering her.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's telling the officer that he did it. He's confessing. He's telling the officers in telling them those statements, I killed Molly Tibbetts. That's what he's saying. That's what the statements all point to. We also have, as far as corroboration of this confession, This is a state's exhibit that we used with FBI agent Kevin Moran, who we brought here from Dayton, Ohio.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Agent Moran is a cell phone expert, an analyst with the FBI. He's a special agent. He's a law enforcement officer that has a particular expertise in working on the CAS team with FBI. So we put officer or agent Kevin Moran on the stand. And what he does, what does this help with? All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We know that, for instance, Christina Stewart saw Molly jogging on the road, jogging away from her, right about the same time that the video puts Christian Rivera and Molly in the area. But that's a human. That's a person that's giving you their views. You know, that's what she testified to. There's really no reason to doubt it.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But this type of evidence that Agent Horan can offer is electronic evidence, right, not subject to bias, not subject to impressions. And he helps us establish a timeline with regard to Molly Tibbetts. He helps us also establish two different search areas that also help with the investigation. He knows that Molly Tibbetts was taken at about 8.30 p.m.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
shortly before because she ends up, by his calculation, driving directly south just after that between 60 and 70 miles an hour. So we know that's when she was taken. That is consistent with and in conformity with
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The evidence that we see in the video with Christian Rivera's car being in the area with Molly Tibbetts, it also supports what the defendant is saying at the sheriff's office whenever he's interviewed that he took her out on 385th. All of the electronic evidence is matching up to help establish this timeline. It's the same location as the defendant states to Romero out on 385th.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And also, whenever he takes them to the cornfield that is down on 460th and southeast of Poweshiek County, it lines up with that as well. Actually, if you look at his search area, that is the box on the bottom of this exhibit, it puts the area where Molly was found is on the far eastern edge of that. So it all matches up. It is all consistent.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
it's the same location that the defendant took the officers to in august on august 21st of 2018. it matches and it's electronic evidence it's not subject to bias this all fits this confession of the defendant identifies and proves that the defendant and only the defendant murdered Molly Tibbetts. All right? So component one is the video and all the information we've already talked about.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
12.5 hours. He worked till 7 p.m.? Correct. Were you and the other crew members staying at a motel near Dubuque? Yes, it was a Days Inn in Dubuque. And how far was the Days Inn from the job site that you described to us? 10 minutes. And did you and your crew, including Dalton Jack, go anywhere after work at 7 p.m. on July 18th of 2018? No, we did not. Did you go back to the hotel? Yes. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Component two is the confession of the defendant where he says he is solely responsible for Molly Tibbetts' death. Let's move to some physical evidence here. The DNA that we have in the case. By the way, the DNA the defendant doesn't know about, right, at the time that he's first interviewed. This is information that came in later. But DNA proves
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that Molly Tibbetts had direct contact while bleeding with the Malibu that is owned and solely operated by the defendant. Right? That's what we have. How Molly was found in the cornfield, the physical evidence that we have there, it lines up with how the defendant said that she would be found and her clothing in the field. We'll talk about that here in just a second.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So let's talk about what we have here with regard to the DNA. All right, these are the two pictures. There's others of the car that are in, but these two photos that are here that are in the case as exhibits show that the tag on the Malibu, same tag that Officer Kivy stopped, as well as the blood spot here that you see on the rubber seal,
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that the swab was taken from that was identified solely as Molly Tibbetts' blood. So we have that. And there's another blood spot that's in the trunk. If you were to stand at the trunk and open the door and look inside, it's here to the left. There's a spot of Molly's blood that's in there. Molly's blood should be nowhere near this Malibu. Right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Unless it ties right to the defendant, which it does. And it's the further identity of his embalmer. So the defendant has what? Exclusive control of the Malibu. He never, never, never puts two men in the vehicle with Officer Romero. Has plenty of chances to do that, and he doesn't do it. He also has control of this car.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
from July 18th to August 21st when it is seized, when it is taken into custody by the Iowa DCI. So he has the ability to clean it, dispose of things. We don't know what the trunk actually looked like on July 18th of 2018. We know what it looked like on August 21st of 2018, and it had two spots of Molly's blood in there. Did I already say that Molly's blood shouldn't be in there anywhere?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She has no association with this man. It puts her in the trunk. And he knows this. Now, after it's found, keep that in mind for later. It's irrefutable that she's there on the seal and in the trunk. How Molly was found also corroborates the confession of the defendant. There's a series of photos here that we put in to evidence. Underneath this corn is the body of Molly Tippetts.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not going to show you after the corn is removed. It's in evidence. I'm not going to show you that again. You know what it shows. But these pictures that are here, all of which are in evidence, You notice what drew everybody's attention is Molly's colorful jogging shoes. That's how she was found. But she's underneath the corn. Now look at that corn and those corn stalks.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They look like they've been there for a little while. They don't appear to have been moved, again, by anyone. They're laying across her body as her body decomposes under them. And this is what they found. There's her hand. that you can see on the ground. So how does this help corroborate what the defendant told Pamela Romero? Well, remember, he took them out there. He showed them where she was.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He never walked back into the corn with the officers. But what did he tell them that he did? He told them that he put corn stalks over her. Clearly, that's what happened. And that's what he told them then. Again, not involving two other guys, right? Only him. It corroborates his confession. He knows that. That's what we have here. This corroborates his confession.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And, again, third component of the states with regard to physical evidence, location, we'll talk a little bit more about that here in a second, and the condition of the corn and what was on her body, just as he said. It all corroborates. It is all starting to fit together. Okay, motive. I want to talk a bit about motive. Motive is not an element in murder.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If you look at those four elements that we're just talking about, motive's not mentioned in them. But the judge has given you an instruction that talks about motive and utilizing it to judge whether or not you want to believe something and what somebody's testifying to. So you certainly can look at their motive, their candor, and their bias. So you can look at motive in this case.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So if not the defendant, let's look at motive for a bit. Who had a motive to kill her? Who had a motive to kill Molly Tibbetts? Who? The defendant spent a fair amount of time on Dalton Jack. We'll talk about him later before we're done today. But if not the defendant, who had the motive to kill Molly Tibbetts? A sweet girl, college girl, woman, 20 years old, no other motive.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did Dalton Jack go with you? Yes, he did. Did you see him at the Days Inn after 7 p.m. on July 18th of 2018? Yes, I did. So what was the plan then after work for July 18th of 2018 for you and your crew?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So how does the defendant have a motive? Well, he tells us what it is. Anger is a pretty good one. Anger is probably one of the oldest motives in the history of human beings for why people get hurt. Somebody gets angry and they take steps and act on that anger. Why is he angry? She has rebuked him. Molly threatened to call the police. We've already talked about this.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'll talk about it again because this does not fit at all with the other two men theory. So Molly rebukes him. Molly is threatening to call the police, and the defendant was angry. He says that. He tells us that. He also says when he gets angry, he blacks out. That's what he claims. That's what he told the police. But what do we know? We know that she rebuked him. He did not like it.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he is angry. And the way he reacts to that anger is to stab this young woman to death and dump her body into a cornfield. Now, whenever we look at motive, it's not one of those things where you say, oh, OK, now it makes sense, where you understand really why somebody would do that and have some common understanding with them. That's not what I'm talking about.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What motive is, is having some evidence as to why something happened. And this is why it happened, and we know it happened because the defendant told us that's what was in his head. One of the key things in this case is that the defendant led officers to Molly's body. No one other than the defendant knew where Molly was located.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The officers, the cops in this case, investigators, agents have been searching up and down, have been talking to all sorts of people, trying to figure out, you know, who, right? Who would have done this to her? Who would have had a motive to do it? The defendant, whenever they talk to him, they say, take us to her, and he does. Turn by turn. Takes him right there.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He led them to Molly in the dark from Yerby Farms. Remember when they left the police station, left the sheriff's office, they had to go out to Yerby Farms to orient him, and then he took them there. No mention of two other men. Only Molly's killer would know her location. Only that person. And the defendant's testimony proves how important this is. You know why? He knows this.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He knows this is the one kind of thing that people can't get past whenever it comes to his guilt, right? That he led them to the body. Wow, that's pretty powerful. So then what does he do? He comes up with another story. Denial, saw the car, takes them to the body, admits to what we've already talked about, and then number four, we heard, yesterday because he's trying to explain this one away.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We usually go back to the hotel, get showered up, then bring our food out. We all have one grill and we all just grill at the same grill and have a couple beers, play bags, and then usually go to bed at a decent time so we can get up and work a good day tomorrow.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, other suspects that's been raised here. Here's some of their names, Dalton Jack, Chaney, Pexa, Tomatic, Eichhorn, Culver, all these other names that come up. The cops ran these leads to the ground. They looked, right? They talked to these men. They could find no connection.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Are they just supposed to ignore everything that Christian Ramirez told them at the end and start keep hammering on these guys and keep coming back to them? Or do you follow the evidence in the case? They followed the evidence in the case.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's no evidence that any of these men on that list, including Dalton, who we'll talk about a little bit more specifically later, had knowledge of the defendant, knew who he was, had any connection to his Chevy Malibu, or had any real reason to harm this young woman. None. Dalton Jack had no knowledge.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One of the things that the defendant says in his testimony that one of the person, the shorter one, knew the defendant had a child, there's no evidence that Dalton Jack knew that or that Ron Pexson knew that, right? That he brings up the child because they threatened him. That's the whole reason he says he didn't talk about these two guys. I mean, come on. I mean, no knowledge.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No connection between any of these men and the defendant. None. So remember, back in jury selection, we talked about possibilities. Whenever we did jury selection, we did it in three different groups. I think I asked each one of you, not each one of you here, but each one of your groups about possibilities. Is it possible?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think the example that I used was, can we go outside of this arena that we're in to pick the jury during COVID? And if there's a hundred dollar bill that's laying out there, is it possible it could be there? Yeah, it's possible, but you don't know, right? I could suggest it just because I suggest it doesn't make it true. That's the whole point, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All these possibilities that are thrown out about Dalton Cech and Ron Pexa and all these other guys that the officers looked at. Possibility, possibility, possibility. But what's the evidence in the case? that they're associated, really none. The evidence in the case that the officers follow, that we're asking you to follow, is what we actually know.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you do that on July 18th of 2018? Yes. And was Dalton Jack present for the grilling? Yes. And did he play bags? He did. Did you ever see him go back to his room? Do you ever recall that? No. On July 19th of 2018, what was the plan for the workday?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And not just because the officers say it, because we can see it. And we can see the maps, and we can see the testimony, or hear the testimony, and we can hear and see the physical evidence in the case. Just because someone suggests something doesn't make it so.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It doesn't mean that you're not firmly convinced about exactly the opposite if the evidence proves that that's true beyond a reasonable doubt. Don't fall for the possibilities. There are three other elements. We do have to prove them. I'm going to wrap this up here in just a moment. But the element number two is that Molly Tibbetts died as a result of being stabbed.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So now we've got element one, identification. Was it Christian Bahena Rivera that stabbed Molly Tibbetts? Beyond a reasonable doubt. You should be firmly convinced based upon the overwhelming evidence that we have in this case about the defendant. So Molly Tibbetts then, number two, died as a result of being stabbed. There's no real issue here.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She was stabbed somewhere, I think Dr. Klein said, and Dr. Garvin, who testified, talked about the wounds to the ribs. They did a very detailed examination of her. This woman was brutally stabbed. There should be no doubt about that. We have to prove it. It's the cause of death element. ID is one, cause of death is two, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the second one that we have to prove, Molly Tibbetts died as a result of being stabbed. There's no... question here. We saw the defects in her jogging bra that are sharp force injuries. I think there were seven of them. The sharp force injuries that are on her ribs, same thing. So element number two, right? Element one, ID, proven. Element number two, cause of death, proven.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Element number three, this is one of two mental states that the defendant has to have in order to commit murder in the first degree. The first one is element number three, which is the defendant acted with malice aforethought. A fixed purpose or design to do some physical harm, here to Molly Tibbetts, which exists before the act was committed. The same injuries that were inflicted upon her
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
prove malice aforethought. Now that we have identity, we know that it's Christian Bahena-Rivera that committed these acts that stabbed Molly Tibbetts. He would have plunged a knife into her at least nine times. Sharp force injuries to her neck and to her chest, which killed her. If that's not malice aforethought, I'm not sure what is.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And really, the injuries to Molly Tibbetts and this mental state that was used to cause those injuries that existed before he would have plunged the knife into her really is not in dispute. So malice of forethought has to be proven in order to be murder. So looking at the injuries, looking at the circumstances, the stab wounds, element number three is proven.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The second mental state that we have to prove is that the defendant acted willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly with specific intent to kill Molly Tibbetts. The same evidence that we have here It's a little bit exceeding that because we can go back to the things that happened on the roadway to help establish what his mental state was at the time, the specific intent to kill.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But the stab wounds here, the injuries to Molly Tibbetts, what he did afterwards, he didn't tell anyone, all of those things. How he left her in the corn, all of those things, the repeated stab wounds that took time and effort to do. There's no other intent here other than specific intent to kill. There is premeditation, there is willfulness, and there is deliberation.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, we started at 5.30 that day. We knew rain was coming, so we were just trying to put in a good day before the rain hit. So we worked through lunch, and we stopped at 2 o'clock that day. And after that, we called it. We waited out waiting for about half an hour, and then we'll call the day.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He tracked her down, he found her on the road, he got angry, and he stabbed her to death and he dumped her body. That's what the evidence is in this case. So, going back to our first element, we've spent most of the time this morning talking about that. On or about the 18th day of July 2018, it was the defendant who stabbed Molly Tibbetts. Molly Tibbetts died as a result of being stabbed.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant acted with malice of forethought, and the defendant acted willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly, and with specific intent to kill. This is a saying that I learned from a DCI agent that I worked with. His name was Bill Basler. He's up in Mason City. He had this on his wall. And Bill's been retired for quite some time. I worked a number of cases with him. And he had this on his wall.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It always has struck me as very much driving to somebody's common sense. And that's what we want you to do. We want you to look at this through the lens of your common sense. The instructions allow you to do that. And that's what we want you to do, is to look at that through common sense.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is this?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you hear thundering hoes, they're horses, not zebras. What does that mean? It means look at the obvious, right? That's what it's after. Don't look for the exotic, right? Look for what the evidence, where it takes you. Look at what the proof is in the case. Look at those things. What the defendant said he did. He never introduces two men till yesterday. Think about that.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is the obvious in this case? Christian Bahena-Rivera is guilty. He's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Looking at all this evidence in the case, I do get a chance to, by the way, talk to you after Mr. Freeze is done. And we'll have an additional time to do that, and we'll cover some more ground, particularly as it relates to some of the statements the defendant made yesterday.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We are in the presence of the jury. Mr. Behema is present along with the attorneys of record. When we were last here, the defense had rested. Mr. Brown, does the state have any rebuttal?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we'll talk about that. But looking at the evidence in this case, all of it, the video, the confession, the blood that's in the trunk, all the other circumstances, all the other investigation that went into this, it all points to one person and one person only. The judge gave you an instruction right towards the end of the set of instructions that he read. Here's what he said.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then we went back to the hotel, and we stay at the hotel because we're going to work the next Friday anyways.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told you that your job as jurors, your sole duty as jurors, is to find the truth and to do justice. That's your job as jurors. And looking at all the evidence in this case, Looking at everything that we have, all of the circumstances, the truth here is overwhelming. That the defendant murdered Molly Tibbetts on July 18th of 2018. That the defendant committed murder in the first degree.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He took Molly's life. He stabbed her to death. and he dumped her in a cornfield. Justice in this case, ladies and gentlemen, is a verdict of murder in the first degree. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was Dalton Jack present for the workday on Thursday, July 19th of 2018? Yes, he was. As far as you know, was he there the entire time from 5.30 a.m. to 2 p.m.? Yes. By the way, did he have a specific job on your crew? He would just be considered a laborer. Did you notice anything unusual with Dalton Jack's demeanor, how he was acting on July 19th of 2018? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did he work in the summer of 2018? Was he working for Jasper Construction? Yes, he was. And was he a good worker? Very good. Showed up on time? Yes. Never had any real problems with him? Nope.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And can you describe that, please? He was acting kind of down, not really speaking with the group and just kind of sad. And did he ever express to you what was causing him to be sad? Later on that day, yes, he did. What did he say? He told me that he hadn't spoke to Molly in 18 hours and he was getting worried and nobody had heard from her, none of the friends he'd contacted.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he was going to maybe leave that night to go put a missing person report at the 24-hour mark and told me that he might not be at work the next Friday. Was that okay with you? Yes, it was. Were you worried for him? Yes, I was.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did Dalton Jack come to work then on Friday, July 20th of 2018? No, he did not. To your knowledge, did he go back to Brooklyn? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you and the rest of the crew finish out your job on Friday? The rest of the crew did. I left a little early to go help search. Go help search for who? For Molly. And when did you do that? I did that probably 9 o'clock in the morning on Friday. I called my boss, asked him if I could leave and come help because he has property in Brooklyn, farm, ground, and everything, and he said that was fine.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you drive back to Brooklyn? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it about a, from the bridge back to Brooklyn, is it about two, a little over two hours? Yes. And whenever I say that, a two-hour drive or a little more? Yep.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. That's all I have.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you. Defense may cross-examine.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, you were in Brooklyn helping with the search. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I haven't seen any records of you being interviewed. Do you recall if you were ever interviewed originally?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was just interviewed by the FBI agent. I do not remember. He called me. I didn't get interviewed in person, but it was a cell phone call.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. So you were called by an FBI agent. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yep.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How long did that call last?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It lasted maybe a matter of three minutes, maybe.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was the call regarding?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Just Dalton's whereabouts.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, you were not originally subpoenaed as a witness to testify at this trial. Is that correct? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's not relevant as to when we call him. Overruled.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were not subpoenaed, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you know Dalton Jack outside of work with Jasper Construction? Just at hotel, you know, when hanging out with him, yeah, just a little bit. Not personally, personally, but yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When were you contacted about testifying at this trial?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Actually a couple weeks beforehand by a sheriff.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and what was your understanding of the reason for the call?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To give Dalton an alibi, technically, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you were called by the sheriff to give Dalton an alibi, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, yeah, I was the only witness there for him, pretty much, other than the crew.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you ever asked to produce these records that you relied on?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Later on, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So just recently, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I offered to bring them beforehand, but then he asked me to bring them once, yes, later on.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. So originally when this investigation was going on in 2018, were you ever asked to produce records? No. So the records that you've relied on, you just looked at in the last couple of weeks, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, there's been some talk about you drinking most of the day that you were rained out on Thursday, July 19th of 2018. You recall drinking that day? Yes. And specifically, it was asked if you needed to have a ride to the store because you were so intoxicated.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's not correct. I had a company vehicle, and I was following the law.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Which is what?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Which is you cannot drink and drive.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you asked for someone else's assistance on July 19th to get to the store, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Specifically, who was that?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dalton Jack.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that was because you were not in a condition to drive, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's because I would not be able to pass a breathalyzer, correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You're a little older than him, is that correct? Correct. All right, I want to direct your attention, Mr. Wilson, back to the week that includes Wednesday, July 18th of 2018. Do you recall that week? Yes, I do. Was that the week that Molly Tibbetts went missing? Yes. Is that why you can remember that week a little bit better than others? Is that a yes? Yes, sorry.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, it's customary for crews to drink after a long day of work, isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So, pretty much any day that you are working, you are also consuming alcohol later on that night, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Most nights?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, let's talk about Wednesday, July 18th of 2018. You said that you drank a couple of beers that night, isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If Dalton Jack originally said to law enforcement that he showered that night and watched rush hour one in his room, would you disagree with that statement?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She's asking this witness to comment on another witness's credibility.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, a witness can answer if he knows.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, I do not recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you're not sure if he was in his room? it it's hard to remember it was three years ago you just testified that you were out playing yard games and and grilling isn't that right correct and that dalton was there correct but you're telling us that if dalton said that he actually showered and watched rush hour one in his room that you're not sure if that happened
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. How would I be sure if he was in his room watching Rush Hour? He could have done that during the shower, had it on, played it, then came outside.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dalton Jack was interviewed several times when this originally happened. You knew that, is that right? Correct. In his recollection, within days of this happening, you'd agree that would be better than yours three years later?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Workers at your company routinely share rooms, isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And in this case, are you aware that Dalton Jack was sharing a room with Brandon Gordy?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, Brandon Gordy would be a better person to say where Dalton Jack was in the evening hours of July 18th of 2018. Isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We don't have Jack's cause for speculation as to what Brandon Gordy may have said or seen or heard. Sustained.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You'd agree with me that you go to sleep early so that you can start the day early. Isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And... Brandon Gordy would be the person that is in the room with Dalton Jack that night?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were aware that Molly Tibbetts and Dalton Jack were having problems with their relationship, isn't that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objections exceeds the scope of direct.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Calls for speculation.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. The witness may answer if he knows.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not at the time, no.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You found out after the fact?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I found out during the trial.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No further questions.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, anything else to this witness? No. Mr. Brown, on behalf of the state of Iowa, you may proceed.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Your Honor. May it please the court. Counsel. Mr. and Ms. Freese. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. This is a case that you have heard over the last few days here in this courtroom. You've heard a case and evidence about a young woman who went for a run on July 18th of 2018 and she never came home. Her life was brutally taken by the defendant on July 18th of 2018.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What job were you working the week that included July 18th of 2018?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is Molly Tibbetts, 20 years old, just starting out her adult life. Molly Tibbetts went for a run. She'd gone for a run most days. Sometimes she would go a short distance, sometimes she would go a little bit longer. But on July 18th of 2018, she went for that run that was a little bit longer. She was confronted by this man. She crossed paths with him and it ended her life.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, that Monday, we started on a job we had to do. It was in Amana. It was probably five minutes east of Williamsburg. And then that following Tuesday, we were up in...
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She was attacked brutally by him. She was stabbed repeatedly by him. Can you imagine what that was like for her? Nine to 12 times, She was stabbed. Her clothing was removed. She was dumped into a cornfield, discarded under a pile of corn. She was covered with those leaves, and she was left. Five weeks, Molly's body laid in that cornfield. And you know who knew about that? One man. One man knew.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when you called 911, where were Jacob and Sabrina? In the garage still. Do you know if they were standing or if they were on the ground or where they were? I don't recall. Do you know if Mr. Kerr still had the knife? I believe so. What were your emotions like at that time? Fear. Terrified. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B6. Can you identify what that photograph depicts?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the hallway leading to the bathroom and the bedrooms. Is that where you headed after you closed the door to the garage? Yes. There is a railing on the left. Where does that staircase go? That leads to the basement. What's in the basement? That was mine and Sabrina's room and storage. There's a door on the right in this photograph. What is in the door on the right?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would be the bathroom. Did you look in that bathroom on your way back to Eson's bedroom? Yes. What did you see? I saw a body wrapped in a blanket and stains all over the floor. Did you spend much time going in that bathroom and looking with any specificity? Could you see who it was? No. Did you make an assumption in your mind about who it was? Yes. Who did you believe it to be? Hison.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So the doorway all the way at the end of the hall, what is that doorway? That is the door to Hison's room. Is that where you went? Yes. I'm showing you what's been marked as 1B7. What is depicted in this photograph? Hison's room. There's a door immediately to the right. Do you know what that door is? I believe that is a closet.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then there's a door in the back on the right, a doorway that you can see. Where does that doorway lead to? That is the bathroom. And is that where you went? Yes. When you came in through the garage, do you remember if you locked the garage door? I don't believe I did. When you came into Hisan's bedroom, do you remember if you locked that door? Yes, I did. And when you came into the...
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's on the bathroom. Did you lock that door as well? Yes. What did you do when you got into the bathroom? I grabbed a towel to wrap up my arm and called 911. And did you just stay in the bathroom then, Ken, while you were on the phone with 911? Yes. Do you recall where in that bathroom you were standing? Up against the door. How was your body positioned?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had my back up against the door and I was standing. While you were in the bathroom, do you recall if anybody else came into the house? Yes. What do you recall?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe that Kayer came back inside and tried to get into the bathroom. How do you know that? Because I could hear him outside of the door.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You know for sure it was him? No. But you suspected it was him? Yes. I'm showing you what's been marked as exhibit 1B8. Can you identify what's depicted in that photograph? Yes, that is the bathroom. There is what appears to be some staining on the floor of the bathroom. Did you observe that staining on the floor of the bathroom before you entered the room? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Based on where you were standing and the nature of your injury, do you believe that staining came from your injury? Yes. And is that standing consistent with where you were standing in the bathroom? Yes. Do you recall making that phone call to 911? Yes, I do. And you recall talking to the dispatcher and remaining on the line until officers arrived? Yes. Did officers eventually arrive unseen? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When they arrived, do you recall dispatch telling you to leave the residence? Yes. And what did you do? I walked through the house and out of the front door. Did you walk back out the garage door where you came in, or did you walk out a different door? I walked out a different door. And that was the front door to the house? Yes. Were officers waiting there to meet you? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's the house where you resided with Sabrina and Sunny Teague? Yes. And were you living there in June of 2016? Yes. Were you working at that time? Yes. Where were you working? Burger King. Do you know about the date range of your employment with that Burger King? January, I believe, until July or August. Is that January 2016? No, yes, 2016, sorry.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then what happened after you met with officers? I was put into an ambulance and rushed to the hospital. Do you recall which hospital you were at? Fallon. What was the nature of the injuries that you suffered?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There was a severed main artery, several severed tendons and nerves. And that is all that I know. What about the injury to your chest? Do you remember that? Yes, I do. And that was just a lesion. Do you recall what you were wearing that night? Yes, I was wearing my black khaki pants and my Burger King work shirt.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, do you recall whether or not you had any weapons on your person that night? Yes. What did you have? I had a pocket knife. Is it typical for you to carry a pocket knife? Yes. Do you recall, did you use that knife at all during this incident? No, I did not. Do you recall dispatch having a conversation with you about that knife? Yes. What was the nature of that conversation?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They asked me if I had any weapons, and I told them that I had my pocket knife, and they told me to take it out of my pocket and leave it in the bathroom. Did you do that? Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to ask you to take a look at Exhibit 1B9. Can you see that knife in that photograph? Yes. Where is it located? Towards the front left of the drawer. And 1B10, can you identify what's present in that photograph? Yes, that is my pocket knife. It appears to be on a tissue. I don't mean to lead you. I don't know whether that's a tissue or not.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Was that white tissue-like object, was that yours or was that in the drawer? That was in the drawer. And again, did you utilize that knife at all during the course of this incident? No, I did not. And you did, in fact, leave it there to be recovered or photographed by law enforcement? Yes. Joel, I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B11.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph? That is mine and Sabrina's room. And which room of the home is that located in? That was downstairs in the basement, the first door on the right. And that's where the two of you stayed together? Yes. I don't mean any offense by this, but it's kind of messy. Is that sort of the normal state of affairs in that room? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, I'm going to ask you to identify Exhibit 12. Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph? That is one of our windows. I'm going to return to photograph number 11. The window in 12, is that photograph present on this photograph, photograph 11? Yes. And which window is it? That would be that one. I believe you were pointing to the top left-hand side of photograph 11. Is that accurate?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. In number 11, that window is covered. Is that right? Yes. I'm going to return to photograph 12. It appears that there is some grass or plants on the bottom of that, and it appears that the window is broken. To the best of your recollection, prior to June 7, 2016, did the window area look like that? No. Was it broken to your knowledge at all? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, you indicated that you were wearing your Burger King shirt that night. I'm going to ask you to take a look at photograph 1B13. What's depicted in that photograph? That is my work shirt. That's the shirt you were wearing on the night of this incident? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, Joel, I know this might be difficult, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this might be difficult, but I'm going to show you some photographs that depict your injury, okay? Yes. I'm showing you 1B14. Do you know what's depicted in that photograph? That is my arm. Is that what it looked like after the incident with Mr. Kayer on June 7th of 2016? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I think you indicated that the knife went directly through your arm. Is that accurate? Yes. Is there a hole on the other side that's not depicted on this photograph? Yes. And that required surgical intervention? Yes. Joel, I'm showing you 1B15. What's depicted in that photograph? My chest and face. Does that photograph accurately depict the injury to your chest? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you start Burger King before or after you started dating Sabrina? After. So January of 2016. Is that correct? Yes. And how long had you resided at that 1368 residence? About six months. During your time living there, had you ever seen or known a person by the name of Jacob Kayer to be at that house? No. Joel, I'm going to direct your attention specifically to June 7th of 2016.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And in 1B16, can you describe what's in that photograph? The wound on my chest. And again, does that accurately depict the injury that you suffered in this incident? Yes. And you indicated what treatment was required for that injury?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had to go under for surgery, and they sewed my arm back together, and I had three stitches in my chest.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, as we were having our conversation here today, you were talking to the jury about what happened to you. You called the defendant Kayer. Did you know Jacob Kayer by first and last name on June 7th of 2016? No, I did not. Did you know his last name? No. You did know his first name, though? Yes. Had you met him previously? Once. Where did that occur? At Walmart.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know about when that was? About a month prior to June 7th.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what was the nature of that meeting? Him and Sabrina got into an argument about something, and then we left after that.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I presume at some point, based on that argument and your follow-up conversation with Sabrina, you learned that his name was Jake and that he was Sabrina's ex-boyfriend? Yes. When Mr. Kayer jumped out of that laundry room, did you immediately recognize him as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend? No, I did not. When did you come to recognize him more specifically that night? When she called his name out.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So Sabrina actually called him Jake during the incident? Yes. And then based on what she said and then your subsequent observations, you were able to determine that it was her ex-boyfriend Jake? Yes. Mr. Kerr say anything to you while this attack was happening? No. Anything at all? No. Could you see his face when he came out of the laundry room? Yes. And what was he wearing?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe a black t-shirt, a hat, and jeans. The hat, was it like a baseball cap or what was it? Like a stocking cap. And what color was the hat? Black. But his face was not covered? No. You were able to see it clearly? Yes. What did it look like? Plain. And again, to the best of your knowledge, Mr. Kerr had never been to that house while you were living there? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the only time you ever met him was at that Walmart incident earlier? Yes. Joel, do you recall talking to law enforcement after you were brought to the hospital? Yes. Do you know about how many times you talked to law enforcement? I believe three different times. How soon after the incident did that occur?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About right before I went into the surgery, so about half an hour.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Half an hour after what? After the incident. Half an hour after the incident or half an hour after you got to the hospital? After the incident. And then did you talk to law enforcement subsequent times at the hospital again? Yes. In preparation for the court here today, did you have an opportunity to review any of the statements or the information that you had provided to law enforcement? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And did you know anything about that information that you provided to law enforcement that was consistent or inconsistent with what you said today? Yes, they were inconsistent. Were they substantially inconsistent? No. Do you recall some of the inconsistencies? No, I do not.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
But certain wordings and certain sayings were different than other statements.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The information that you provided to the jury today, is that the information that you remember to the best of your ability? Yes. And do you recall emotionally what you were like when you got to the hospital? I was scared, in pain, still terrified. Do you remember what shoes you were wearing when you came to the residence that day? No, I do not.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you remember if you took your shoes off prior to going into the house? Yes, I did. You know where? On the porch leading to the door. Was that typical? Yes. Was it a no-shoes house generally? Yes. Okay. I'm going to show you just two last photographs, one B-17. I asked you to take a look at that photograph on B-17. There's a shoe, appears to be a shoe, in that photograph.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And are you from the Green Bay area originally? No. Where are you from? Milwaukee. And do you live in that area now? Yes. At some point in time you were residing up in the Green Bay area, is that right? Yes. Can you tell us how that came about? An ex of mine. And that's not Sabrina? No. At some point in time did you meet a person by the name of Sabrina Teague? Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you remember that day? Yes. Were you living in the 1368 Riverdale Drive residence at that time? Yes. Had you moved out or lived in a different residence at all kind of immediately prior to that? Yes, I did. Where were you living immediately kind of prior to that? What's the timeframe? With a friend and for a couple months. So is that in like the spring of 2016?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
To the best of your recollection, is that your shoe? No. Do you know if that was Sabrina's shoe? Did you ever see her wearing that shoe? I do not think so. I'm just going to show you one B-18 that's close up of that same shoe. Does that change your opinion at all, whether that was yours or Sabrina's? No. Just a brief follow-up, Joel. Do you recall...
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to have any specific recollection of where Mr. Kayers stabbed Sabrina? No, I believe all over. Did you see him stab him multiple times? Yes. Joel, I want to ask you one last question. It's probably a little bit uncomfortable, but have you ever been convicted of a crime before? Yes. How many times? Once. All right. I have no further questions at this time.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Mr. Cotton?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You were asked questions by the prosecutor about inconsistent statements. Do you remember that? Yes. And you said that your statements were inconsistent. Is that what you said? Yes. Meaning that you gave three different statements to the police. Is that what you said? Yes. And then we have a fourth statement here in court, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And actually more statements were made because you prepared with the district attorney's office for trial, right? Yes. In other words, you sat down with them and discussed what you would testify to. Yes. Okay. And you've talked to others about this over time as the years have gone by. Fair to say? Yes. Okay. People have wanted to know what happened, and you've shared what's happened, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Now, regarding the inconsistent statements, were you – I just want to explore that a little bit further. I'm holding up here something that – does this look familiar? Can you see from where you're sitting?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What am I holding? What do I appear to be holding up?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the first statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Your first statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Meaning... Okay. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, that is my first statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. Yes. Yes. Now, you had a chance to look at this statement again when you were preparing for trial with the district attorney's office, fair to say? Yes. And that's when you noticed inconsistencies, right? Yes. Because you were rereading this and also thinking back on what you remember, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And it's fair to say four years, a little bit more than four years have gone by since the incident, right? Yes. Now, this statement was produced while you were at St. Vincent's Hospital, right? Yes. And when you had those wounds that we had seen in the pictures, right? Yes. So, and it's only one page, right? Yes. I'd like to talk to you about some of the inconsistencies, okay?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
First of all, you've testified today about what happened, right? Yes. Yes. And it's your version that Jacob was responsible for this, right? Yes. And we agree you came in through the garage. At least that's your testimony. You came in through the garage, right? Yes. And if we orient ourselves with the pictures, I believe you'd come into the kitchen. Would that be fair to say? Yes. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And today you testified that... Sabrina walked, your recollection is that Sabrina walked down to the bathroom and noticed her mother, right? Yes. And in your written statement, you had indicated me and Sabrina entered the bathroom. Would you agree with that?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would just say if he doesn't, we'll refresh his recollection as we ordinarily would. I'm asking if he recalls. In your written statement, you said, when me and Sabrina entered the bathroom, we saw blood everywhere. Would you agree that you made that written statement? Yes, I do. And today you've testified that Sabrina was the one who entered the bathroom, not you. Fair to say? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, that would be before winter 2015. Oh, okay, so this is before you moved into the residence entirely. Yes. And then once you moved into 1368, you were living there essentially continuously until June 7th of 2016? Yes. On June 7th of 2016, do you recall what time you left the house that day? I believe it was 12 or 1 p.m., And where were you headed at that time? Work.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So that's one inconsistency, right? Yes. Okay. And then in your written statement, you stated that Quote, Jake started attacking me with the knife. I fell to the floor. You remember that? Yes. And today you've testified that Sabrina was the first one who was attacked by Jake. Would you agree with that? Yes. That's another inconsistency, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And after Jake attacked in your written statement, you say that Sabrina was attacked second, right? Yes. Yes. Okay, but the way you're remembering it today is that Sabrina was attacked first and then you were attacked second. Yes. I want to try to understand a little bit more clearly what happened in this, or what you say happened.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You have been dating Sabrina since at least, I think, December-ish of 2015, right? Yes. And the two of you met however you met, and you moved into her house fairly quickly, right? Yes. Is that because you had no place else to live, or you just immediately had a very close relationship? We had a close relationship.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the bedroom we saw the pictures of downstairs was where the two of you would reside, right? Yes. And you would agree that Sabrina's mother, he's son, did not want you living in the house. Would you agree with that? No. You don't agree with that? No. Well, she was upset that you were, when you moved into the house, wasn't she? No, she was not. Was she happy that you moved into the house?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She was indifferent. But you weren't working when you moved in, right? No. Meaning, correct, you didn't have a job when you first moved in, right? Yes. And no source of income when you moved into the house, right? Yes. Sabrina was working. She was at Perkins, right? Yes. So you're not working. Sabrina is working.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you're living in the house. Yes. And so to the extent you're eating and having shelter, that's because it's being provided to you within that home, right? Yes. But it's your testimony that he-son, or Sonny as we'll call her, was indifferent to that? Yes. Okay. You didn't have any conflict with her about moving in and eating their food and living off them? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it your testimony that Sonny liked you? Yes. Okay. Now, you did have a knife on you, right? Yes. Why did you carry a knife with you? I used them at work. You worked at Burger King? Yes. Okay. And we saw a picture of that knife. Looks like a black folding knife, fair to say? Yes. Is that a work-issued knife?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you would carry that at Burger King while you worked? Yes. And then you would carry it in your pocket after you left Burger King? Yes. What was your job at Burger King? I did everything. Cook burgers?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Cook burgers, take orders, make the food, take out the garbage.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And which of those jobs did you require the knife for? Breaking down boxes. Okay, so if you had to break down a box, you had a knife for that? Yeah. And would you agree that this knife has a blade, right? We can't see it in the picture, but there would be a blade in there, right? Yes. And would you agree you also carry that knife with you for protection if you need it?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You didn't just get the knife for purposes of breaking down boxes at Burger King, right? Yeah. Right? The knife has other purposes if you need it, right? Yes. If someone attacks you, you have a knife available to repel the attack.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, in the six months or so that you had been at this house, you never once saw Jake there, right? No, I did not. And it would be completely unexpected to see Jake in the house that night, right? Yes. There's no reason for him to be there. Yes. No conflict had happened earlier that day that would cause him to be there?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina picked you up from work and you guys went to Walmart to get some food, right? Yes. So in terms of... In terms of what you were doing, it was as uneventful of an evening as you can imagine, right? Yes. Similarly, there had been no conflict between Jacob and Sonny.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you weren't aware of any conflict between the two of them where there was bad blood between him and Sonny?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, there was none.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And again, during the six or seven months, you never once saw Jacob at house, right? Until you say the night of the stabbing. Correct. Now... And just so we're clear, you did have a cell phone at that time, right? Yes. And the police took that cell phone and did whatever they did with it, right? Yes. In fact, you gave permission for them to analyze it if they wanted, right? Yes. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that is the Burger King? Yes. Where was that Burger King located? In Howard. And so when you went to work, 12 or 1, how long were you supposed to work that day? I believe I was supposed to be there until 9 or 10. How did you get to work?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you had had that phone for maybe a month or so, or a month or two months before this incident, would that be fair to say? Yes. And that phone would contain text messages, phone call history, things like that? Yes. And you also had a Facebook account, right? Yes. Would you agree with me that in your phone, you would access YouTube from your phone? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Would you agree with me that the same day of this incident, you searched on YouTube? It's up to you. We can approach first, and if you want to excuse the jury, we can. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I think for purposes of the record, there's a relevance objection. I'm going to overrule the objection.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
My question for you was whether you were able to access YouTube also from your phone, right? Yes. And you would do that periodically? Yes. And the same day of this stabbing, you had searched the phrase famous last words. Would you agree with that? Yes. In fact, that was the last thing you searched right before the stabbing? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you were asked about that by the district attorney's office in preparation for this trial, weren't you? Yes. And you told them that it's a music video that you like. Yes. Called Famous Last Words. Yes, it is a musical group. What's the video about?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Wait for a moment, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He said he doesn't recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Well, I'm just going to sustain the objection, but is there any additional questions you intend to ask on that issue? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Then I don't think I need to worry about the answer. It's already in the record. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, you were... So we've already talked about Exhibit 2, which is your written statement, right? Yes. Which was written by law enforcement because you weren't in a position to write this, right? Yes. And you were also interviewed... On video, you remember when they filmed you and interviewed you? I do not. Are you aware as you sit here today that you were video filmed as you made a statement?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. You know that, right? Yes. And you know that because the state and the prosecutors have shown you your video to show you what you said, right? Or is that not accurate? That is not accurate. Okay. How do you know you were filmed? How do you know you were filmed? Did somebody provide you a copy of your tape?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, but I was informed. By who? I believe Lieutenant Levin Lennon.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina drove me.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And he's here in court at the end of the prosecutor's table with the shaved head, right? Yes. Okay. Did you watch that tape with him in preparation for your testimony? No. No. No? He just told you that there was one, right? Yes. Okay. So you talked about an event at Walmart where you had run into Jacob at some point before this, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a car at that time? No. Was it typical for Sabrina to bring you to and from work? Yes. And you think you were supposed to work until about 9 p.m. that night? Yes. Did you end up working until 9 p.m.? No, I was released early. Is that typical that you would occasionally get released early? No. Do you know what the reason was on that particular day? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
But Sabrina never told you that Jacob would want to hurt her, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, she did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She never said Jacob was dangerous? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't believe so.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's something you would have remembered if she had told you that, right? Yes. So she never says he's dangerous, never says he'd want to hurt her, but you did have conversations about him because you saw him at Walmart, right? Yes. And that was about a month or so before the incident? Yes. During this stabbing event, it's your testimony that Jacob... is the one who did this, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's your testimony? Yes. And that he didn't say anything before or after the attack, right? Yes. No words?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No words at all.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I thought, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that you described how his face looked. Didn't they ask you how his face looked?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you said plain, right? Yes. Would another word for that be expressionless? Yes. Meaning... didn't look angry, you couldn't get any read out of it, could you? Correct. Nor are there any words being said, so that doesn't help you at all either, right? Correct. And let's go with what you remember today in your testimony, is that the initial confrontation happens in the kitchen area, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Which it's either Sabrina first or you first, depending on the written statement or today's testimony, right? Right. Yes. But eventually, all three of you make it to the garage, right? Yes. And you first, right? You were the first one to go in the garage. Yes. And it's your testimony. Jacob just jumped out of the laundry room unexpectedly and started attacking Sabrina, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You got into the garage. Yes. And then... Didn't keep running outside the home, right? Correct. Just stayed in the garage until Sabrina and Jake came out the door. Yes. And I'm trying to understand how it unfolded. You're watching as the two of them are struggling coming down those steps, right? Yes. And that's when you grabbed that shovel that we saw and you hit Jacob in the head with the shovel.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's your testimony? Yes. And in fact... Jacob fell to the ground, isn't that true? Yes. And Sabrina got on top of him? I don't believe so. So Jacob's on the ground and Sabrina is standing? I believe she was on the ground as well. And it's your testimony that you've, at this point, already been stabbed through the arm, right? Yes. And which arm were you stabbed in? This one. Okay. So then...
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You run into the kitchen and you lock Sabrina and Jacob in the garage?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No. I did not lock the door.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You ran in and just closed the door?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And left them out there? Yes. Why, if you made it to the garage, why didn't you just keep running out of the house? I don't recall. You would have had to have run under this version... Jacob and Sabrina come down those stops. They're fighting right there in front of the stairs. You would have had to have run right past them to go back through the door into the kitchen. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that's what you believe you did? Yes. And in fact, the garage door was even open at that time, wasn't it? I do not believe it was. No. You go back inside, it's your testimony you don't lock that door, but you run down the hallway and you go into Heason's bedroom, right? Yes. And you lock that door? Yes. And then you lock the bathroom door also? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have plans after work that night?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So now you've barricaded yourself behind two more locked doors, right? Yes. Now... You've identified Mr. Kerr here in court today when we all removed our masks, right? Yes. And you were close enough, you say, to see his face. You said he did the stabbing, right? Yes. You told the police that the person had shoulder-length hair. Do you agree with that? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, we were going to have a friend come over and watch some TV and movies.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that the person was not wearing any mask at all, right? Yes. Okay. No attempt to conceal one's face whatsoever? Correct. And no facial hair, right? Correct. No, he had facial hair. Okay, do you remember facial hair? Yes. Were you present in court when your 911 call was played? No, I was not. Have you had a chance to listen to your 911 call prior to your testimony? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You would agree that in the 911 call, you were asked whether there was any facial hair and you said, not that I saw? I do not recall. And you don't remember what you said in that call, right? No. What do you mean? About facial hair. You don't recall what you said? No. But that 911 call is you trying to describe everything you're seeing at the time, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you say we, you mean you and Sabrina? Yes. Do you know what either Sabrina and Sonny's plans were for that day? No, I do not. Was Sabrina working at that time? I believe so. Where was she working? Perkins. Do you know if Sonny had a job? I do not think so. So what time did you actually get off of work that day? I believe 7.30. And how did you leave work that day? Sabrina picked me up.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it your testimony that you believe you were stabbed in the kitchen area? That's where you remember being stabbed? Yes. Before you went into the garage area, right? Yes. And did you ever... You had your knife in your pocket this whole time, right? Yes. And it's your testimony you never utilized that knife in any way, right? Correct. Why didn't you pull the knife out to fend off the perpetrator?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I didn't think about it. When you were... One minute, please, Your Honor. I want to just ask a few more questions, touch on a couple other things with you, sir. Going back to Sonny, the mother, liking you... Are you aware that Sabrina had a sister, Sarah May? Yes. And did you have contact and interaction with Sarah May?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Not that I can recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you aware of the mother's boyfriend, Raymond? Is that somebody you were familiar with? Yes. Sonny had a boyfriend named Raymond, right? Yes. And were you... Were you aware of anything Sonny had said to Raymond about not liking you?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Going to the interview you did with the police at the hospital, you would agree that your written statement is a much shorter version than what was discussed over the 30 minutes or so that you talked to the officers, right? Yes. In other words, you were getting medical treatment and they were present talking to you during that time, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They were trying to understand what you believe happened, what you saw in the house, right? That was the whole point of the questioning? Yes. And do you remember an officer named Officer Ehrenstein? Is that somebody that you're familiar with? I do not recall, no. Do you know the names of the officers who were interviewing you? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Would you agree that you told the officers that the last time you saw Sabrina, she was in the garage on top of Jacob holding him down? Do you remember telling the officers that? No, I do not. As you sit here today, it's your recollection that she wasn't holding him down, he was just down on the ground, and that's when you ran from the garage? Correct. If he had a shovel...
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
and you had knocked him down to the ground, why would you just run into the house and not keep hitting the person? I don't know. That's all. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any redirects?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You were asked about the garage door and whether that garage door was open or closed. When you recall going out to the garage to get the shovel, do you believe the garage door was open or closed at that point? Closed. Do you recall actually closing it or someone closing the garage door when you came in? Yes. And do you know who did that? I believe I pushed the button to close it.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the button to open and close the door, where is that located? Right next to the door to the kitchen from the garage. Did you think about opening that door and running out before you went and grabbed the shovel? No, I did not. What was your purpose in grabbing the shovel? To fight.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this was sort of described by defense as, well, you've got the shovel and you're standing over there in the corner just watching them struggle. I mean, was this a long period of time that you're standing there with the shovel before they come out the door? No. Is it fair to say that, in fact, all of this is happening very quickly? Yes. Is it a chaotic scene? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you do recall grabbing the shovel on the side of the garage, and then about how quickly after you went and grabbed the shovel, did Jacob and Sabrina come out of the garage? I'd say about five or ten seconds. So fairly quickly, they come right out? Yes. And then likewise, the physical struggle, the you striking Jacob and then running back in the house, does that happen fairly quickly? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's just a general question. Are there things you would have done differently if you could do this all over again and you had the time to reason your way through how to respond to this attack? Absolutely. It's fair to say at that time this was just chaos and you just did what was on instinct? Yes. Again, Mr. Cotton showed you a brief written statement. It was one page, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what car was Sabrina driving? Her vehicle. And what kind of car was that, do you remember? Chevy Cobalt. I'm going to direct your attention back to Exhibit 1B1. Do you see that vehicle in the photograph? Yes. There's only one vehicle in the photograph, is that fair to say? Yes. So it's the vehicle parked in the driveway? Yes. Where did you go after Sabrina picked you up from work?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it fair to say that everything that happened that night cannot really fairly be encapsulated in one page? Correct. Correct. And he talked to you about some of the inconsistencies, right? He talked to you about who got stabbed first, whether both of you went over to the bathroom to see his son in the bathroom.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In your mind, is the big picture, the vast majority of what happened, has that been relatively consistent throughout this? Yes. Any questions, Your Honor? I don't know that I let him. I asked if it was, and he could say yes or no.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't think that was a leading question. I'm going to overrule the objection.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know if in every one of your statements you said Mr. K.R. jumped out of the laundry room and attacked you? I believe so, yes. The weapon that Mr. K.R. used, do you know if that was consistent in all of your statements? Yes, I believe so. Can you tell us a little bit about that knife? Do you remember the knife itself? Yes, I believe it was a chef's knife.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In terms of the size of the knife, do you remember any of the size of the knife? About that big. Are you familiar with a standard kitchen knife set? Yes. Would this be one of the small knives or one of the large knives? One of the large knives. As it compares to your folding knife, was it bigger or smaller?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Much bigger.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you recall if in every one of your statements you remember that you struck Mr. K with a shovel? Yes. Do you recall if in every one of your statements that... happened in the garage? Yes. Is it possible that in one of the statements that wasn't actually consistent? I do not believe so. As you sit here today, where did that contact take place? In the garage.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In every one of your statements, do you describe Mr. Kerr as the person who did this? Yes. Is there any doubt in your mind that Mr. Kerr is the person who stabbed you and Sabrina? No. And you saw him stab Sabrina with your own eyes? Correct. Multiple times? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Clearly you saw him stab yourself? Yes. Again, these are leading questions I'm objecting because he's giving the answer.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you rephrase the question?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'll withdraw that question. At any point in time, did you see anyone else in the house other than Mr. Kher, Sabrina, and Issa? No. And to be clear, I'm talking about on the evening of June 7th, 2016. Correct. Before law enforcement arrived. Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any requests?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Are you aware that Sabrina's body was eventually found next to the house? Are you aware of that? Yes. Outside of the garage, right? Yes. So in terms of the garage doors, it must have been open for Sabrina to get out of the garage, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. Okay. That's all. Do you know when that garage door became open? I do not know. It's your testimony here today that the garage door was... Do you recall when you were in the garage having contact with Mr. K or the shovel, do you believe it was open or closed? Closed. Nothing further.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Chankita is going to start off by asking you what is your current occupation?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I am a forensic anthropologist as my occupation. I am currently the chief medical examiner of Dane, Rock, Brown, Door in Oconto counties of Wisconsin.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranquita, I'm going to go back and ask you some questions then. I'm at the June 9th, 2016, during the morning hours. Did you have an opportunity to perform an autopsy on Sabrina Teague? Yes, I did. Approximate time of the autopsy, it looks like 8.46 AM. I believe that's when we started. When you do an autopsy, do you have a certain
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
a protocol, a way you like to go through it every time so you're consistent? I do. And... Could you tell the jury, is there a certain way that you perform Sabrina Teague's exam? For example, do you first look at the external part of the body and then move to internal? How kind of can you just tell them in general the procedure you used before we go into specifics?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course, very generally. We generally begin with an examination of the external aspect of the body within the body bag or the container to document whatever writing or whatever identification is present on the outside of the bag to make sure that the security seal that is sealing the bag is intact. and to make sure that any writing is identified and documented.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The bag is opened, and then we begin the external examination of the body. In forensic pathology, the external examination of the body is just as critical as the internal portion of the body. I'm looking at the external aspect of the body to document any injuries, any features of the body, any trauma. I'm also photographing, measuring, and documenting with scale. I collect external evidences
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do swabs for DNA. I collect specimens for toxicology. I try to see if there's any kind of residue that might give me an indicator of who may have committed this or who may have done this. We may also take x-rays as well at this point, especially if there's a kind of penetrating injury.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once all that is done, I then proceed to the internal portion of the autopsy examination, which is what most people think about when they think about an autopsy. The internal portion of an autopsy examination is the surgical evaluation of the organ systems of the body to see what has been injured and what disease processes may be present.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After you went through step by step the autopsy of Sabrina Teague, do you eventually compile all the information you received, notes and your observations and put it into a report?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I do. The report is composed of not only the summary of the findings, but also the diagrams and the photographs that are created as, that accompany the report. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did I ask the court's continuing permission to approach during his testimony?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, you may.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you for your documents labeled exhibit number 10. You just peruse the document as you're doing, Doctor, and then I have a couple questions for you. Exhibit number 10, could you indicate to the jury what is exhibit 10?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Exhibit number 10 is a copy of the report that was generated by our office on the death of Sabrina Teague. It includes the autopsy report, the notes that were generated during the process of making the report, the diagrams from the report, the toxicology report, about the people in attendance, and those sorts of documents.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what happened after you left Walmart? We went home. And did you go anywhere else in between, from leaving work, Walmart, and then home? No. And do you know about what time you got back to 1368 Riverdale Drive? About 7.50. Eight. Fifty or eight? Yes. When you arrived home, where did she park the car? In the driveway, right in front of the garage door.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchitti, I'd like to then just begin to go through some of the items noted in your report of the autopsy of Sabrina Teague. What I'd like to do is to Start from the beginning. I'd like to go through the final diagnosis. It's listed on pages 1 and 2 of the autopsy report. And just chronologically go through this.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to start then by looking at the first one listed on your report, stab wounds. First, stab wounds, I want you to list the stab wounds you've noted to the head of Sabrina Teague.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I noted two stab wounds to the head of Sabrina Teague. The first was located on the left cheek. This went deeply into the left cheek. It went through the skin, soft tissues, and muscles of the left cheek. It hit the left parotid gland, which is one of the salivary glands in the cheek, and then went into the mouth and struck her tongue.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And could you... indicate the other stab wound to the head.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct. There was another stab wound to the chin. This went into the skin and soft tissues of the chin and struck the mandible or the jaw.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchito, what I'm showing you on the screen has been marked 1M, number 1, as far as exhibit. A particular photograph that's up on the screen, would you indicate, describe what it is, Dr.?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When I perform an autopsy, I try to document, in as many different ways as I can, the features that I'm seeing of the body, in order to convey to the reader what I'm seeing both in diagram form, in measurements, but also in photographs. In this case, this is an overhead view of the decedent Sabrina Antique.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She has a number of sharp force injuries, which are depicted in this photograph, and I've placed a small label next to each of the injuries to help categorize them or list them in sequence as we describe them. In this case... If I may? Yes. The stab wound that we first described, or stab wound A, is located on her left cheek.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is the stab wound that went through the left cheek, went through the left parotid gland, and went into her tongue. Stab wound B, the next one going down, is located on her chin. This went through the skin, the soft tissues, and hit the mandible, or the jaw, of Sabrina Teague.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, and I'd like to continue in your final diagnosis of injuries to Sabrina Teague, going through the injuries to her torso.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we go down to the neck stab wound, there was a stab wound of the base of the anterior neck. This was stab wound C. This was a superficial stab wound. It went into the skin, the soft tissues, but it didn't go very deeply into the chest cavity. Stab wound D. Actually, I believe this was C. I believe this is stab wound D. This one went into the chest just below the left clavicle.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is also a superficial stab wound. Okay. Superficial, yeah, stab wound E is going into the upper aspect of the right side of the chest below the right clavicle. And this was a very deep stab wound. The stab wound went through the right ribs, two and three, on the right side. The stab wound also went through the right lung.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The stab wound hit the pericardial sac, which is a membrane sac that surrounds the heart. And the stab wound hit the aorta, which is the largest artery in the body. This was a fairly deep and significant stab wound. The next stab wound going down is directly overlying the sternum. This baboon hits the sternum, the left rib number four. It hits the pericardial sac.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, that's the sac that surrounds and protects the heart. And then it hit the heart as well, striking the decedent in the right ventricle. This was also a very deep, very life-threatening stab wound. We had a stab wound. The last stab wound in the front of the body is stab wound G. This entered the midline of the upper aspect of the abdomen. This stab wound hit the decedent's diaphragm.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This hit the left lobe of her liver, and it hits the omentum, which is a structure which protects and covers the intestinal tract.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I can then show you another photograph, Doctor, and it's 1M2. It would be a little easier, I think, to see C and D, so I apologize for that.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This stab wound is a close-up of the area of the decedent's head and neck. You can see very nicely stab wound A, stab wound B, stab wound C, E, E, and F. Again, stab wounds C and D are very superficial. Stab wound A goes through the cheek into the mouth. Stab wound B hits your jaw. Stab wound E goes into the torso, hits ribs, hits the lung, hits the pericardial sac and the aorta.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So is it consistent with the photograph that's being displayed that we previously addressed? Yes. Is that typically where Sabrina would park? Yes. Did Sonny have a vehicle? Yes. What kind of vehicle was that? A Chevy HHR. When you arrived home, was that vehicle at the residence? Yes. Where was it? In the garage. Do you know which stall of those three stalls? The middle stall.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound F goes through the sternum, through the ribs, through the pericardial sac, and into the heart.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to continue with going through different areas on her body. I'm going to go to stab wounds on the back area. So I'm going to show the next picture, which is 1M3.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound H, the higher up one, is described as a stab wound on the left side of the upper aspect of the back. This stab wound goes to the skin, soft tissues, and muscle, but doesn't penetrate into the chest cavity. Stab wound I also goes through the skin, soft tissues, and muscle of the right side of the middle aspect of the back.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So if you divide that back down the midline, and you divide in upper, middle, and lower back, this is the right side of the middle aspect of the back. This is the left side of the upper aspect of the back. So stab wound I goes through the skin, soft tissues, and muscle, but doesn't penetrate into the chest cavity.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound J is described as a stab wound of the left side of the lower aspect of the back. This is a fairly deep stab wound. This goes through the thick skin, soft tissues, and muscle. This goes through the left side of the diaphragm, and this stab wound injures the left kidney.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Because we're on this particular photograph, doctor, this 1M3, and of course we can see another injury to Ms. Teague's left side of her neck. Since the photo's up there, can we talk a little bit about that particular injury?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. This is an incised wound here on the posterior and lateral aspect of Sabrina Teague's neck. This is cutting into the underlying subcutaneous soft tissue. So it's very long on the skin surface, but it's just going to the level of the subcutaneous fat. This is an incised wound, or a cut, into the back and side of Sabrina Teague's neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe, Dr. Tranquilla, that we've covered on your final diagnosis all the different stab wounds listed to the head and torso, the different injuries you noted to Sabrina Teague. I'd like to kind of go to page two of your complete report in exhibit 10, where you start to list some incised wounds. I know you described what an incised wound is, longer on the surface rather than deeper.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Could we list some of those for the jury that you observed on Sabrina T?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. So again, we described incised wounds as longer on the skin surface and they are deep into the body. Another way to think about them as cuts as opposed to stabs. Sabrina Teague had about five incised wounds. And the first was on the right side of the underside of her chin.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this was a superficial cut, but it was an evidence of sharp force trauma being applied, or an object with a sharp edge being applied to the right side of the underside of her chin. We showed one of the other ones earlier as well, the incised wound on the back and left side of Sabrina Teague's neck. This was a long incised wound or long cut that just penetrated to the level of the soft tissue.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, Sabrina Teague had an incised wound. on the dorsal surface of her left forearm. She had a cut on the dorsal surface of the forearm from the elbow, the forearm we consider from the elbow to the wrist, and she had a cut on the dorsal surface of the forearm. Also, she had a cut on the volar or palmar aspect of the left thumb. That's A, B, C, and D. C and D are super
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you think that vehicle was in the middle stall when you arrived? Yes. Were there any other vehicles on scene that you observed? No. May I ask you if you can recall specifically how you entered the home that night? He went in through the garage and the side door to the garage. So you walked in the garage door, and then is there an entryway from the garage into the home? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We also have the incised wound, that superficial inside of the wound of the underside of the chin is depicted in that diagram as well. Also there are abrasions or scrapes or scratches of the left side of the seat's forehead and the chin also. Also the incised wound of the posterior aspect of the left side of the neck, which we saw earlier in the other photograph as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
These are diagrams of the decedent's hands, both the dorsal or knuckle side and the palmar sides as well, both the left and the right hands. The decedent had an abrasion on the dorsal aspect of the proximal phalange of the right index finger. This is the incised wound on the palmar aspect of the thumb of the left hand, or cut on the palmar aspect of the thumb of the left hand.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, shed a small hematoma or blood blister on the palmar aspect of the ring finger of the left hand.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, continuing with your report, Exhibit 10, after you listed the incised wounds, you have a section that lists blunt force trauma, head, torso, and extremities. I'd like to see if we could just go through those injuries you observed on Sabrina Teague's body.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course, once again, blunt force trauma is trauma that is caused by impacting or being impacted by an object that doesn't have a sharp force, a sharp edge. In other words, a blunt surface. This can be as broad as anything from a fist, a foot, or a door, or a wall, or a tree. Basically, it's something that doesn't have a blunt force edge.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sometimes these impacts can leave a pattern, but many times they don't. We try to categorize them in abrasions, superficial scrapes or scratches of the skin, contusions, where the skin is intact but we have bleeding underneath the skin surface, or a bruise, or lacerations. Laceration are tears or rips in the skin caused by the application of blood force.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In her case, she had abrasions and contusions, so scrapes and bruises. Starting with the head, We saw that she had a linear scrape or scratch on the upper aspect of the left side of the forehead. She also had another abrasion on the right side of the chin. And she had another abrasion on the underside of the chin as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you tell us how that happened? Meet me. And did you start a relationship with her? Yes. Do you know about what time, what year you began that relationship with Sabrina? December 2015. And how did your relationship progress with Sabrina?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
On the torso, she had an abrasion on the midline of the upper aspect of the back. So the upper back at the middle of the back. And she had two abrasions of the posterior aspect or back of the left hip. Now, these abrasions had a possible pattern. They were crescent-shaped, or like the shape of a crescent moon. These are very consistent or suggestive of fingernail scratches into the skin.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had a small contusion, or that blood blister, of the palmar aspect of her left hand. I'm sorry, the palmar aspect of the left index finger, left wing finger. She had an abrasion or scratch on the dorsal aspect of the proximal phalange of the right ring finger. And then she had a number of abrasions on the left thigh, left leg, and left ankle.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then she had additional abrasions on the right thigh, right knee, right leg, and right foot.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Trinke, the only one I see we really didn't cover, and there's quite a few, are... Under the blunt force trauma section head, oh, there's one contusion. I apologize.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Could you please list that?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So in addition to the abrasions and the contusion described in the left hand, there was also another contusion on the left side of the frontal scalp. So the frontal scalp covers from just above the ear forward, and there was a contusion on the left side of the frontal scalp, or bruise.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that's the entryway that you took? Yes. Was that typical? Yes. Did you utilize the front door often? No. When you arrived through the garage, did you notice anything unusual upon entering the residence? Yes, there was a bottle of water spilled on the floor. Well, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B2.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchita, after completing your autopsy of Sabrina Teague and putting together, starting to prepare your report, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty it's a cause of death of Sabrina Teague?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What is that?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
To a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I believe that the cause of death of Sabrina Teague is the stab wounds of the torso, as these penetrated deeply into the body, perforating her lung, her aorta, and her heart, her diaphragm, her liver. These were significant life-threatening injuries, causing collapse of her lung, significant internal hemorrhaging, and ultimately death.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now to my final question then. Based on a reasonable degree of medical certainty, do you have an opinion as to the manner of death for Sabrina Teague?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What is that opinion, Doctor?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
To a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I believe that the manner of death for Sabrina Teague is homicide.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Trinchita, on the same date that you completed Sabrina Teague's autopsy, did you have an opportunity to perform an autopsy in the body of his son Teague as well? Yes, I did. And on that date, June 9, 2016, do you believe it was in the afternoon hours that you completed the autopsy for Ms. Heesun Teague? Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to show you, Doctor, I'd like to go through the same procedure that we did for Suprena Teague's autopsy for Heesun Teague. I'll show you what's been marked instead of number 11. through that document. Dr. Trinchini, did you have a chance to look through Exhibit 11?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is that a copy of your autopsy report involving Isantig?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, it is.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go through again the same procedure. I'm going to begin on page 1, where it lists the final diagnosis involving the autopsy of Isantig. The very first category lists stab wounds, lists two of them. I'd like to start with those and go through injury by injury.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Peace and Teague had a number of different modalities of injuries or types of injuries. The first they listed in the list of final diagnoses were her stab wounds. She had two stab wounds. The first was of her head. This struck the left temporal scalp. It went through the left temporal muscle or the muscle that sits on the left temporal scalp. And it went into the left temporal bone.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's another photograph, and I'm going to ask you to identify that photograph. That is the garage entrance. You'll notice on that garage entrance there appears to be quite a lot of chaos, blood evidence, things of that nature. Is that there when you arrived at the residence? Objection.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It did not penetrate through the temporal bone, however. The second stab wound was of her torso. This stab wound struck her in her left breast. This went through the left fourth rib. This went through the pericardial sac, that fibrous sac that protects the heart. And then it went into the heart, stabbing her in the heart, specifically the right ventricle.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And Dr. Trinkita, I'm going to take a couple steps back. Did you... Do the same protocol or procedure that you did with Sabrina Teague's autopsy with his son. By that, I mean going to an external exam after you opened up the bag where her body was located, and then also go to an internal exam as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, again, doctor, those are the two injuries you listed for stab wounds. The next section is Roman numeral number two. endless incised wounds to Hisantig. Is that correct? That is correct. Could we go through those and indicate to the jury the incised wounds that you located on Hisantig's body?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. So once again, incised wounds are cuts. They're sharp force injuries that are longer on the skin surface than deep into the body. Hisantig had five incised wounds or five cuts. The first was of her left ear. This incised wound amputated or cut off the superior aspect of her left ear or the upper part of her left ear. She had another incised wound or cut on the left side of the forehead.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had another incised wound or cut on the left cheek. And then she had another incised wound or cut on the right jawline.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Doctor, I would like to... continue and just go through the different injuries before I start to show pictures because I think when I start to show the photographs, there's going to be a combination of the different injuries, whether they're incised wounds or stab wounds, kind of together in blunt force trauma.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I'm going to ask if we could just continue as in your report, the final diagnosis after incised wounds where it says compression of neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, sir. He, Santee, had injuries of the neck consistent with compression of the neck. I believe that there was both ligature, or using a cord, and manual compression of the neck, or using of the hands. A ligature was recovered from around Heeson Teague's neck, and there was a ligature furrow that was imprinted upon the skin of Heeson Teague's neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition to these external injuries, this ligature furrow that was present on the neck There were also abrasions as well. But deeper into the neck structures, there were areas of muscular hemorrhage deep into the neck. This is very consistent with compression by fingertips or application of blunt force trauma to cause bruising and hemorrhage of the deep structures of the neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So there was both ligature and manual strangulation of the neck. As a consequence of this, there were hemorrhages in the decedent's eyes, or petechial hemorrhages and vulvar hemorrhages.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you rephrase the question? Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Essentially, when you apply pressure to the blood vessels in the neck, this causes the blood vessels in the eyes and the conjunctiva around the eyes to burst, causing hemorrhages in the soft tissues around the eyes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchita, I'd like to see if you'd just define a couple of terms, a couple of words. Ligature and furrow.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There appear to be a lot of stains on the floor. There's a shovel tipped over. There are stains on the wall. Did you observe those stains and the shovel on the floor when you first entered the residence? No. I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B3. Can you identify that photograph? Yes, that is the kitchen and dining room. Of the residence at 1368? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A ligature furrow, a ligature is a rope or cord. You want to think of a ligature as, from the Latin word ligare, something to tie. So anything that is a cord or a rope can be a ligature. A furrow is an indentation or impression or crushing injury of the neck such that a furrow is left behind in the skin after you remove the ligature.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The next section in your final diagnosis lists blunt force trauma of the head, torso, and extremities. I'd like to see if we can go through those injuries one by one.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina, I'm sorry, Heeson Teague had abrasions. contusions and lacerations of her head, torso, and extremities, very many of them. In addition, many of these were patterned injuries. In other words, impacts to the tissues of the body that left an imprint behind that we could describe to give some indication as to what instrument may have caused these injuries.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition to these external injuries, she had diffuse subgalial hemorrhage of her head. The galia is the soft tissue that sits on your head, under your scalp, but over your skull. This was diffusely hemorrhagic. In other words, it was all full of blood. She had subarachnoid hemorrhage over the brain. The surface of the brain is called the arachnoid membrane.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When the brain is injured, it can bleed. And this is called subarachnoid hemorrhage. So there was hemorrhage all over the surface of the brain on this membrane that surrounds and protects the brain. In addition, there was injury to the brain surface itself, the brain itself, not just the membrane covering the brain, but there were contusions of the cerebral surface.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
or cerebral contusions, contusions of the brain. There were lacerations and contusions, in other words, tears and bruising of the oral mucosa, or the inner aspects of both lips, indicative of blows of the lips. She had a number of fractures, including the frontal bone, including the left parietal bone, the nasal bones, and the mandible, or jaw. She had fractures of the sternum.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had fractures of multiple ribs on both sides. She had a fracture of the cervical spine, or the neck was fractured. She had a fracture of the left radius bone, so one of the bones in her forearm. She had fractures of bones in her metacarpal bones, or the bones of the hands, of the left and right hands.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And she had fractures of the phalangeal bones, or the first section of each finger, of the left ring finger, left thumb, and right little finger. She also had a subbundle hematoma, or bleeding underneath the toenail, of the left third toe.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One of the items listed, it says in item H, hemoaspiration. What does that term mean?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Hemoaspiration comes from hemo for blood and aspiration, aspirating or inhaling. Essentially, as a result of all these injuries to her head, she was bleeding into her airway, bleeding into the nose, bleeding to the sinuses, bleeding into the mouth. And she was inhaling this blood, so the blood was going into her airway.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So she was essentially aspirating or drowning in her own blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is a document, an anatomical document diagram of the anterior and posterior surfaces of the female bodies. is that the majority of injuries are going to be depicted in another diagram, just because there are so many injuries in the head that I'm unable to put them all in the sense of this diagram.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
However, in this diagram, I'm still able to show the two stab wounds, which are the first injuries that we described. The stab wound of the left pearl scalp, and this is located just behind the left ear. This is the one that's going through the ribs, through the pericardial sac, and into the heart.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, in the remainder of the body and extremity diagrams, again, I put circles around the hands just to depict that there are so many injuries of the hands that I'm unable to include them in this diagram just for size and space. But elsewhere, I'm trying to show the injuries that are present on the torso, the injuries that are present on the arms.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
bilateral upper extremities, and the injuries that are present in bilateral lower extremities as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchita, when you go to your report, starting on page 6 of exhibit 11, It goes through, there's a lot of them, the abrasions from the head and neck. I wonder if you could just maybe list, doctor, the number of abrasions to the head or neck of He-San Teague that were observed.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And there's a door in the back in the middle of that. Can you identify what that door is? That leads to the laundry room. And then there's a door to the right of that. What is that door? That is the garage door. And is that the door that you entered when you came into the house that evening on June 7th? Yes. Do you recall if the door to the laundry room was open or closed when you arrived? Closed.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There are almost two pages of injuries of the head and neck of He-San Teague. There are at least 14 separate abrasions. There are 14 separate contusions. There are at least 29 separate lacerations. Then we go into the internal injuries of his fatigue.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchito, there are some places in your report, for example, on page 6, I'm going to pick one here, Under blunt force trauma, under head and neck, you'll have like number three, you'll say crescentic abrasion. And I think you told the jury earlier, crescentic means like a crescent moon. Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you indicate that that can help you determine when there's an injury like an abrasion that's crescentic?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When we examine injuries, as a forensic pathologist, I'm trying to determine if there's any patterns or features of the injuries that can help investigators possibly identify a weapon that could be at the scene or recovered subsequently that might match the pattern of the injury that's created.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So a crescent-shaped injury is often very helpful because it indicates an object with some sort of rounded edge or a surface with some sort of rounded edge. In this case, there were a number of injuries that were present that had this crescentic pattern or circular pattern of the body.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I was able to give the investigators, you may want to look for an object or an instrument that has a rounded or crescent-shaped edge.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Doctor, I'd like to continue in your report to page 8, where you again discuss the torso. And I'm wondering if you could just list the number of abrasions to His Antiques' torso.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were eight separate abrasions of His Antiques' torso. Again, many of these had patterned appearances, which I was able to relay to the investigators.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The same crescentic pattern?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Correct. And some had a more circular appearance, indicating an entire circular surface.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Contusions to the torso? Approximately how many can you see in your report to his body?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were at least 16 separate contusions or bruises to the torso.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It does list in your report the different fractures of the ribs, but I think you already discussed those earlier. On page 9, at the very bottom, it says left upper extremity. Left upper extremity, is that just the left arm?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Absolutely. Going from the left shoulder to the left hand. Entire left upper extremity.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Would you indicate on Heeson Teague's body, on her left upper extremity, approximate number of abrasions?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had seven separate abrasions on her left upper extremity.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then contusions?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Contusions, there were... four separate contusions. However, one of them I want to emphasize is fairly extensive. It involves the entire posterior aspect of the left elbow, the dorsal aspect of the left arm, the left wrist, the left hand, and the left fingers. So it's not just one focal bruise. The entire area is diffusely bruised.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And Dr. Tranchito, why do you describe that one as significant? Just because of the area damage, the large area?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Correct. By the numbers, I don't want to convey. I think when most people think of a bruise, you tend to think of a small focus of bruising. By full bruising, I just mean number, not size. This bruise that was confluent or diffusely covering the left forearm, left elbow, left hand is one very large bruise.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And if we continue with the left upper extremity, the number of lacerations to the upper extremity or arm?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What kind of door is the door to the laundry room? Sliding door. Is it typical for that door to be closed? No. Did you notice it when you initially came in the residence that it was closed? No. You'll also see some staining on the floor and what appears to be some disruption throughout the kitchen. Do you know, was that staining present when you initially entered the residence that night? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
there were three separate lacerations or tears or rips of the skin of the left upper extremity.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, next in your report, I think you've already covered the fractures. Could you list on the right upper extremity the number of contusions observed?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were eight separate contusions in the right upper extremity. Again, I want to emphasize that one of these contusions is a large contusion that covers the dorsal aspect of the right hand, the fingers of the right hand. It's a fairly extensive injury that involved the entirety of the right hand.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, two of the contusions are paired, or they are closely approximated together, and they are opposing arcs. These contusions were suggested in a pattern of possible bite mark of the arm.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The number of lacerations to the right upper extremity?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were four separate lacerations or tears of the skin of the right upper extremity. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The left lower extremity of the hyacinth is commonly referred to as the leg. What is that area? Am I correct, doctor?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The left lower extremity extends from pretty much the hip down to the foot.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The number of abrasions observed to hyacinth?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There are three separate abrasions, including, again, a possible pattern abrasion. That's that imprint that allows me to give a possible indication of the instrument used.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that's, again, crescentic or kind of half-moon shape? Correct. This one was more circular. Circular. And then number of contusions on the left lower extremity? There were seven separate contusions on the left lower extremity. Let's move on finally to the right lower extremity of East Antique. A number of abrasions.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were two abrasions of the right lower extremity.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And a number of contusions to that right lower extremity.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were four separate contusions of the right lower extremity.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Page 2 of Incident 12, can you indicate what is depicted in the abrasion?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. As we said earlier, I reasonably put a circle around the body diagram's heads. The earlier diagram was just because there were so many injuries of the head that there just wasn't enough room to depict them individually. Depicted in this diagram are the stab wounds, abrasions, contusions, and lacerations of He-San Teague's head. The stab wounds are visible.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Let's see if you can see them very well. Here's a depiction. I think I drew this manually. I apologize for my artwork. But this is the decedent's left ear. Stab wound A was located just behind the decedent's left ear. There are a number of incised wounds as well. The first one, of course, is the one that transects or cuts off the upper aspect of her left ear.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There's also an incised wound of the left cheek. and incised wounds of the right cheek as well, and I believe there was also an incised wound of the left side of the forehead. Then, in areas with hash marks, these are all different areas of bruising or contusions. These are all bruises that have been inflicted upon this antique's head.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Some of these have a pattern appearance, a circular appearance, or quiescentic sort of appearances. Then these jagged injuries, or lacerations, or tears, or rips in the deceased's tissues caused by application of workforce trauma. She also, in addition to the skin, she also had oral mucosal bruising and tears, or contusions and lacerations.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then as we described earlier, there's a number of skull fractures as well, which are depicted in another diagram also. This is the diagram. Page three. In page 3, can everyone hear me okay? Thank you. Underneath some of the lacerations, there were fractures present. And these are crescent-shaped fractures.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, very helpful because they help me tell that this object that caused this must have a rounded edge. There were crescent-shaped divots or fractures of the frontal bone, or the bone of the front of the skull, and the left parietal bone, or the bone of the side of the skull. Now, these impacts were so hard that they also caused fractures of the base of the skull.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you did not see any staining on the floor when you first came in? No. Okay. So what happened then after you entered the residence? What do you mean? What happened? I think you said you observed some water spilled on the floor. So then what happened?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you remove the skull cap and you remove the brain, this is the base of the skull where the brain sits. The spinal cord goes in here. Underneath both of these plates are the eyes, so these are referred to as the orbital plates. These are thin bones, and both of these were broken as well from impacts.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, her nasal bone was broken, and she had a wedge-shaped fracture of her jaw right there. And these are the fractures depicted there. This is a side view from the left, depicting those fractures as well. There's another one there also. This is a lateral view of the decedent's body.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, I'm using the lateral diagrams to help depict some of the injuries that may not have been easy to show on the front and side views. These are depicting bruises to the side of the decedent's body. And these are also depicting some of the crescent-shaped impacts. In these cases, these are abrasions and confusions that are crescent-shaped or like a half moon on the side of the decedent's body.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So these are close-up diagrams of His Antiques hands, left and right, front and back. Again, the left hand contusion, or this hash mark, is going all the way up the forearm, all the way up to the elbow. This is extensive bruising going from the elbow to the hand. In addition, there are crescent-shaped lacerations of the dorsal aspects of our hand. This fingernail on the index finger is split.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There is a laceration on the palm of her hand as well, and there are also broken bones in the decedent's left hand. On the right hand as well, we have bruising of the back and the front, or the dorsal aspect and the palmar aspect of her left hand. There are lacerations of her hand as well, there and there, and she also has broken bones in her right hand as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At this time, I'd like to see if we could just approach the state in the defense for a brief sidebar.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So ladies and gentlemen, this thing looks like a good time for us to take about a 15-minute break. The jury has returned to the courtroom. Do we have Dr. Tranchita?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Dr. Tranchita, I'd like to, before we complete the direct examination, ask you to show you a couple, several photographs and see if you can identify these for the jury. The first photograph I'd like to show you is 1M4. And could you, Dr. Trankeita, identify what is depicted in 1M4 up on the screen?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The shower was running, and Sabrina went to go check on her mother and found her in the bathroom, and there were stains all over the floor. And then that is when... He came out of the laundry room and attacked.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This was the ligature, a rope that was recovered from around He-San Teague's neck, the body of He-San Teague. It appears to be a yellow woven nylon sort of rope that was looped around, or looped through, rather, a gray metal hook. has created a man-fixed simple noose around the deceased's neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, Dr. Chankita, you've already discussed numerous injuries on East Antiques' body in various places that either had a complete circle shape or half-circle or crescentic type of shape like a crescent moon. I want to show you one specific photo. It would be 1M12. See if you could identify that jury.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One M12 is depicting a crescent shaped abrasions. on the upper aspect of the left side of the scene's back, just on the medial aspect, or the closest part to the midline of the shoulder blade. In addition, there's a second, more circular, outlined circular abrasion. These are what we referred to earlier as our patterned abrasions.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In other words, these aren't just regular sort of shapes on the skin surface. there's a very kind of clearly defined shape to this injury, which might be helpful to indicate what sort of instrument or object caused, or surface caused these injuries.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Now, Dr. Trinkita, as part of your examination, a part of your autopsy in this case, did you have an opportunity to look at a tire iron that was displayed to you as part of this autopsy?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did, and I referred to this tire iron on page 14 of the autopsy report. This was after the completion of the autopsy in a separate room. I examined a tire iron that was brought to me as a possible instrument.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to show you just several more photographs at this time, starting with 1M13. Can you identify that photograph for the jury?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is the tire iron that was brought to me. This is a photograph that was taken by us. We have used a blue tray as a background. And this is our label from our medical examiner's office. It's a gray scale label that we can detect to see if there's an alteration to color. And it also has a scale on it as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The case number for this case is also included on the label, so we know which photograph goes with which case. This is the tire iron that was given. As you can see, it has a rounded edge. It has a chiseled edge, and the remainder of the tire iron is wrapped in what appears to be gray duct tape.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you got to look at that tire iron depicted in this photograph, was there at least a red substance on portions of the duct tape as well? That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In particular, when there was dried red residue on the socket end of the tire iron as well as on the duct tape as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It went really well, and we were trying to get everything set up and start life together.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go forward to 1M14. Can you just describe it? It's more of a close-up. Can you describe that for the jury?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you go over to the bathroom to look to see what was in there at that time? No, I did not. Drawing your attention back to this photograph, that appears to be a kitchen island. Is that accurate? Yes. When you came in, where did you go? I was on the other side of the island. When you say the other side of the island, are you talking about the side where the table and chairs are or the other side?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is some of that tacky red substance residue that was present, consistent with blood, on the duct tape of the tie rod.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And is this the end of it, or has the rounded area at the end of the tie rod? That is correct. Go to 1M15, or the close-up again.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is more towards the middle portion between the socket end and the chisel end of the tire iron. Again, the duct tape that's wrapped around the handle, if you will. And again, red residue droplets present on the duct tape.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Go forward to photograph 1M16.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is another close-up to, again, emphasize the presence of this red residue of droplets present on the duct tape. 1M17. This is the chisel portion of the tire iron. As you can see, it has a fairly sharper edge than the chisel portion, which is not covered with duct tape.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is a side view of the socket head of the tire wrench. Again, duct tape is covering the tire wrench almost all the way up to the socket head. And there's dried red residue on the socket head.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Final photograph, 1M19.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is an on-foss or head-on view of the socket head. The one thing that I want to emphasize is the rounded edge of the socket head of the tire wrench. In addition, there's also a hexagonal pattern imprinted on the inner aspect of the socket head. of the injuries. The curvature of the socket head is consistent with some of the pattern abrasions caused on the body.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And in addition, the edge of the hexagon is also indicated in some of the injuries as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So based on your view of the, of Hisantik's body and also your view of this, this tire iron object we're looking at, you indicated, you believe this tire iron is consistent with causing some of those injuries on her body.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct. I believe that during the assault of Hisantig, the ligature that was indicated earlier was used, and this tile iron is consistent with having been used as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go back to photo 1M12, and I'd like to see if we can zoom in, if we can zoom in any further. Can we do that? Okay. Okay. Dr. Tranchita, do you see the injury? It's on the right side of the photograph, the right side of Hisantique's kind of torso on her back. You can see that's the circle, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And can you actually see on the right side of the circle that hexagon or more of a straight edge? Absolutely. Well, then I'll just ask Dr. Tranchita, you describe what you see in that injury.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we talked about earlier, we are seeing a pattern injury present on the seaman's body. Another part of the body is crescentic. In other words, only a portion of this rounded object has struck the seaman's body, so we're only seeing the crescent as opposed to the full moon or the full circle of the object.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In this injury, we can see that, again, one side is hit, causing a crescentic compression, but then a portion of the other side is present, creating a more complete circle. On the inner aspect of the circle, there appears to be a portion of a hexagonal image.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Just finally, a couple final questions, Dr. Tranchita. Based on your autopsy, your observations, your training experience, do you have a reasonable degree of medical certainty an opinion as the cause of death of .
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The other side. And where did Sabrina go oriented on this photograph? The side with the table and chairs. I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B4. Can you describe what's in that photograph? That is the fridge and the laundry room at the house. There appears to be staining on the floor and the wall and on the refrigerator. Was that staining present when you entered the residence? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what is that opinion?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I listed her cause of death as homicidal violence, including stab wounds of the torso, blunt force trauma of the head, torso extremities, and compression of the neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you have, again, an opinion? You kind of already indicated homicidal. Do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty to the manner of death of Heath Santee based on everything that you place on the record today? I do. What is that opinion?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe that the manner of death of Heath Santee is homicide.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions for Dr. Tranchita.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Cotton?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No questions. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B5. Can you identify that photograph and what it depicts? That is the kitchen and the island. Can you see the bathroom where his son was located in this photograph? Yes. And where is it on the photograph? By the stairwell. And which direction from the stairwell is it? Towards the right. Towards the right.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you dated her? Yes. And at some point in time, did you live with Sabrina? Yes. When did that happen? About a month after we got together. And where did you live with her? With her in her house. And do you know the address of that house? 1368 Riverdale Drive. Who else lived there with you? Her mother. And what was her mother's name? He's son. Did she have a nickname? Sonny. Sonny?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So can you see into the bathroom very well in this photograph? No. So when you say that Sabrina went to go check on her mom, where did she go? Were you able to see the area where Sabrina went on this photograph? Yes. Can you describe that for the jury in a little more detail?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She went back towards the back of the house on the stairwell, and then right there in the bathroom was right in front of it.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After Sabrina looked into that bathroom, what did Sabrina do? She said, oh, my God, Mom, and then opened her phone to call 911. And did she stay in that area or did she move at all? She started walking back towards the door. Towards the door that you had entered? Yes. And where are you while that is happening? Standing by the island still. On this photograph, the left or the right of the island?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Left. There is some, what appears to be staining on the floor on the left side of the island. Was that staining present when you entered the home that day? No. So what happened after Sabrina said, oh my God, pulled out her phone and then started walking toward your direction? And... He walked out of the laundry room and proceeded to attack us. When you say he, who are you talking about? Kaya.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you know his first name? Jacob. At this point, Your Honor, I'm going to ask if Mr. Kennedy can identify the individual who he knows as Jacob Kaya. Before Mr. Kennedy makes any identification, I'm going to ask that... All of the members at council table and people in the first row remove their masks.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once everyone's mask is removed, Joel, I'm going to ask you if you see the person who you know as Jacob in court here today. Yes, I do. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Do you see him? Yes, I do. Could you indicate for the record where he is seated and what he is wearing? There and a gray shirt. I would ask the record reflect that he has identified the defendant. The record will so reflect.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you recall who Mr. Kayer attacked first, you or Sabrina? Sabrina. And where was she located when Mr. Kayer attacked her? On the other side of the island, by the chairs. Do you know what he used to attack either of you? A kitchen knife. Could you see the knife in his hand? Yes. Do you know what hand it was in? Right, I believe. Did you actually see Mr. Kair stab Sabrina? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you indicated that he attacked you as well. Do you know when that happened in relation to when he attacked Sabrina?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe he went after her first and then came over to attack me.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When he attacked you, where were you? I was still standing on the other side of the island. Were you standing roughly in the location where the staining is located? Yes. You said Sabrina had her phone out. What happened with the phone? I believe he slapped it out of her hand. And do you know if she actually successfully called 911? I do not think so. When Mr. Akayer attacked you, what happened?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was standing by the island and he walked up and went to stab me and then I put my arm up and the blade went through my arm and into my chest. And then I fell back And started kicking at him and punching.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what did he do at that point when you started kicking at him and punching him?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe he kind of walked away and started going after Sabrina again. What did you do?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I went out into the garage. Through the same door that you had entered? Yes. What did you do when you got to the garage? I went and I grabbed a shovel. And once you grabbed the shovel, where did you go to grab the shovel in the garage? On the other side of the garage. That garage, when we looked in exhibit, 1B1, we could see that the garage has three stalls. Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is that what everybody called her, Sonny? Yes. You too? Yes. And you said that shortly after you were dating, you were living with her, everything was going pretty well in your relationship? Yes. Joel, I'm going to show you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1B1. Can you see it on this screen in front of you here? Mr. Kennedy, can you identify what's in that photograph? That is the house.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Orienting from that photograph, what location of the garage was the shovel found in? I'll bring that photograph back up for you here. The furthest right stall. So the shovel was near there? Yes. So you ran across the entire garage to get it? Yes. When you grabbed that shovel, what did you do then? They were...
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
following me out into the garage, fighting the entire time. And then I struck him here with the shovel. Where did you strike him? I believe in the face. And what happened then? They fell down, and I ran inside the house and locked the doors and called 911.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That message was sent on April 9th, 2016 at 2126 Universal Coordinated Time. The message read, please contact me at 352-801-0941.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that a photograph from this commitment ceremony? That is. Is this a true and accurate depiction of the ceremony on that day, December 31st, 2000?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then is there something that indicates that Vanessa Townsend should receive something out there? Yes. When was that sent and what was the content of that message?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, this time the seat moves CCC into evidence as the next exhibit.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
On April 11, 2016, the message stated your special delivery is to arrive today. Hope to finally hear back from you.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Any objection?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. So at the time you were doing this ceremony in this fashion in front of your friends and family, you're saying that you had not represented this as a way.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you went back to the IP logs, were you able to find consistent IP shared history on February 25th from the Michael Shaver account and the Lori Shaver account? Yes, I was. Can you go ahead and describe to the jury the information that we have here?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As part of the records that you looked into, did you seek out information and documents from Facebook?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That we told everybody it was a ceremony, correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, in 2018, law enforcement responds to your call. and eventually skeletal remains are found in your backyard. Do you remember that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
These are the Facebook records that we received, the IP activity log that was put into the summary. This is Michael Shaver on this side, Lori Shaver on this side. The purple highlight is all from the same IP addresses, and it all shows the dates and times of what activity was conducted.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at that time, did you ask Ms. Shaver how that body got there? I did not. So this person that you were in this committed relationship with that had told you that her husband had just left, just had no contact with the kids, there's a body found in the backyard, and you don't ask her a single question?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is there activity from Michael Shaver's account using that IP address on the day that these messages start being sent? Yes, there is.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, at some point, law enforcement had come on to the property for a couple of days executing a search warrant. Were you aware or did you ever see that activity? Yes. Do you remember when the purchase of that weapon was in relation to that search?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was the date and time? That was February 25, 2016 at 21.57 Eastern Time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's not exactly what happened. Lori called me on the day that the detective showed up at the house. I was at work. I had just gotten off work and she called me sobbing, crying, and I asked her what was wrong. She proceeded to tell me that detectives had shown up at the house and they were asking about Michael. She then told me that they had left. I told her I will be home shortly.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then did Lori Shaver's account utilize that same IP address on that same day?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it did.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was that time? February 25th at 7.06 Eastern Time. When did Michael Shaver's Facebook account have the most activity during the time frame that you were working? Sure, the most activity was concentrated around this time, the end of February 26th. To that extent, to the time frame that messages were being sent to Vanessa Townsend. Yes, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I worked real close to where we were living and I got home, walked in the house. As soon as I walked in the house, a detective knocked on the door. He proceeded to ask me if I knew anything about Michael. I said, no, I've never met him. I couldn't even tell you what he looked like if you showed me a picture. And which detectives did show me a picture. I was like, okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was the time frame that you obtained these Facebook records and IP addresses for both the White Chamber and the White Chamber account?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We tried to go back to...
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
2014 until whatever the time was that we got these records sometime in 2018. Is it fair to say that this shared IP history extends from November 2015 to November 2017? Yes. And going through the time frame in April, once the flowers are received, is that when the majority of the activity appears on this fellow white illustrator's account?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They just told me, we'll be in touch. And that was that. I walked back in the house. I told Lori, I said, it looks like something serious is going on. You need to get an attorney.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But specifically, you did not ask her anything about the fact that that body was from the backyard? Correct. Do you remember ever saying that at one point you did ask her about it and she said she had no idea about it?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And in order to obtain records from Facebook, how do you go about doing that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We're publishing page 27 and 28 of the history of the summary, sorry. And can you summarize the types of activity that you're seeing on the Michael Shaver account and talk about how that relates to Lori's share?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir. No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After the body was discovered, did you speak with law enforcement?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. So according to the summary, it looks like once a day, Michael Shaver's Facebook account will back up. Using the same IP address that Lori Shaver's account was also accessing while Lori Shaver was uploading photos.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had multiple conversations with law enforcement.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever make the statement relaying from Ms. Chambers that it is not that he is missing and it's that he is no longer walking the face of this earth? Have you ever made that statement to law enforcement?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, during this time frame, is this when Facebook messages are being sent to Vanessa Townsend prior to the flowers actually arriving at Vanessa Townsend's work?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you for bringing that up because there's a point of clarification. I understand what you're saying.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please don't argue. Please answer the question.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And these are the time frames that the messages were not being responded to? Correct. Is Lori Shaver's account utilizing the same IP address throughout that same time frame? Yes, it is. Moving on to pages 29 and 30 from the summary, does this activity reflect actions that happened after the flowers had been received? Yes, it does. And what type of activity is being reflected here?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did not make that statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You never made that statement to law?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not exactly as you're saying it, no.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever make that statement to Robert Croker?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We have to get a search warrant.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not as you're saying it, no.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Who is Robert Croker?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He's somebody that I have done work for.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is he a friend of yours?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Have you known him for a long time?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you prepare warrants to get information for a Facebook profile associated with a Michael Schaefer?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have known of him for a long time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You have no issues with him, though?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You are now officially married to Ms. Schaefer, correct? Correct. When did that occur? 2020. Do you have any children with her? I do. How many? Two. What are their names?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So this activity, there are photos that are being uploaded, but there are also photos that are being sent.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, when it says photo, does that differentiate between actual picture and then screenshots of text messages? It does not differentiate. And during this timeframe of all this activity on the Michael Shaver Facebook account, are there large number of photos and share, basically screen captures of text messages between Lori Shaver and Jeremy Townsend's future Vanessa Townsend? Yes, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Aralyn and Samuel.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Has your relationship with your brother and your family changed in any way since you started a relationship with Ms. Shane?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not since I started a relationship with her since this investigation started.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Has there ever been a time where Ms. Shaver used your phone to text your brother or she was acting as if she was you?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Moving on to page 31 and 32 of the summary, what is the activity?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not to my knowledge.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Have you ever told anyone that she did that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it's very similar. You have logins. This one says that there were 40 photos that were sent, 8 photos sent, another login, 16 photos sent, 29 photos sent, 30 photos sent.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Approximately three months, two to three months beforehand. And did you end up purchasing that weapon?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further, Ted.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wiggs. Yes, please. Travis, let's start with one of the last issues that the state was asking you, not some statement. The statement was implying you had made some statement possibly that Lori made about willing to stop walking this earth, something of that nature. Tell us the circumstances of any questioning by law enforcement.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Pages 33 and 34, this is still all the same day as the previous page?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it is.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. And what is the activity here?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
44 photos sent 29, 15, 31, 44, 31, 27 photos sent.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm sure. already been entered into evidence in the state's exhibit number 10. Some drive in that envelope. Can you go ahead and take a look at that? And state's number 10 are those in Facebook records that you obtained from Facebook.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And moving on to page 35 and 36, are we seeing activity both on Michael Schamer Facebook and on Lori Schamer Facebook utilizing that same IP address? Yes, we are. 37 and 38, what information, first of all, what date, time frame are we talking about here?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Law enforcement wanted to have an interview with me, and I did not want to speak with them. One of the detectives had told me that if I do not speak with them, I will feel the full force of the United States government. I ended up having a conversation with that detective. I told him that I was working for Mr. Proper and that him and I were sitting on the back of my truck at the time.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
April 22nd, 2016. This is the 23rd. This is the 24th. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So this is basically everything that we have here as far as once this activity heightens up is from April 16th to April 24th. That's all this activity is just over. Now, on April 24th, does Lori Shaver's account start utilizing that same IP address that we've been talking about the whole time again? Yes, it does. Is there an entry at approximately 2,100 hours that is close in time to each other?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And he asked me, what did I think was going on? And I proceeded to tell him that based on law enforcement's response, I didn't think that this was a welfare check. I didn't think that he was walking around anymore. I see.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. I'm going to show you what's been previously been marked as States Incident 4, identification. Without taking that out or anything like that, do you recognize that firearm?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, tell me about, did law enforcement come out to the residents and say they were conducting a welfare check? I believe so. Okay. Did you confront or speak with law enforcement in the backyard about their presence and why they were there?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there is. And what is the time difference between the activity on the Michael Shaver Facebook account and the Lori Shaver Facebook account on April 24th?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No. The only time I spoke with law enforcement at the property was the day that they were doing their investigation. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So this is about 2,100 to 2,100. So we've done minutes for the Mike Shaver and then Lori Shaver's account in the 2,130, 2,130.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did law enforcement question you in the yard whether or not you saw anything unusual or anything of that nature?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That flurry of activity over that week where you kept on saying, this might be measures, this might be measures. How much actual data are you talking about that was sent to Vanessa Fowler? There were approximately 500 images that were sent, 40 of which were actual photos.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During the interview, law enforcement asked me if I had ever seen anything unusual. And I pointed a place out in the very back of the yard and said, if I had to point something out, I would say this is, and it was a large mound. It was a large mound of dirt. So I pointed that out.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The rest were screenshot with test images.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The officer had the property pulled up on his phone, Google Earth, and he proceeded to point me towards the fireplace and asked me if there was anything unusual about the fireplace. I said, no. I said, the only thing that I've ever seen unusual is this very large amount of dirt in the back of the property. He then directed me back to the fireplace. And he did that a few times.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you states PPP for identification. Do you recognize those?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Good morning.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please introduce yourself to the jury.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Let's have a sideboard. Thank you. All right. Please proceed.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you what's been previously barred for identification of states PPP. Do you recognize those photos? Yes, I do. What are those photos?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
These photos are from Roy Shaver's Facebook account that were sent to...
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And just to go ahead and make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding or a technical mistake, the source of this information was from Michael Shaver's Facebook. Correct. And this is the information that was sent to Vanessa now, correct? Correct. This time, the state moves states PPP into evidence as states...
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And I just told him, I said, I have no idea what you're talking about. I see.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So there was a period of time at which this patio was poured, correct? I'm sorry, say that again? There was a period of time, as the state referenced, about Megs are being rented, you and Lori pouring the patio, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. Now, the state has suggested... that this day to death was, I believe, around 9-12-16. Objection, Your Honor. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, they are.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that the firearm that you purchased from Orange?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you obtain these types of records, are they sent to you, printed out in boxes, or how are they sent to you?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. All right. Any further? Okay. Objection is overruled.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
These photos that are contained here are some of the photos that are in that unit that you just went through? Yes, they are. And on the left, do you recognize that individual? Yes, I do. And who is that? That's Lori Shaver. And on the right, do you recognize those individuals? Yes, I do. And who are they? Lori Shaver and Jeremy Townsend. Photographs identified as page 1145 and 1150. Who is that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sidebar, please. There's an objection. All right. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, a specific date was stated on the record. Please disregard that date. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you, Judge. So law enforcement directs you to this Patio, correct? Yes, sir. You helped lay the patio, correct? Yes, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
1156, 1164.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Jeremy Townsend and Lori Shaver. And 1193. Lori Shaver. 1196. Now, is that all the photos that were in that folder? No. That's just some of them for right now? Correct. All right. The last message from Michael Shaver's Facebook account to Vanessa Townsend, when was that posted? Last message was the end of 2016.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see anything unusual as you laid the patio? No. When Lori and I first met the patio slash fireplace that is in question right now, the dirt was already graded out.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And the color and other features of it are distinctive to you?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
the form of the fireplace was already there so there was concrete concrete bags in one of the sheds that was at the property when i met lori how long had they sat on the property to your knowledge i have no idea they were there several months or what after lori and i met yeah oh it was it was months months Did there appear to be any hurry to lay a patio? No, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They're not. So Facebook has a law enforcement records request portal where they will upload all of that information to and we then download it in a zip folder because it's usually quite large.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there a message on September 20th of 2016 from the mining chamber account to the Vanessa Thompson account?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In fact, the only reason why we decided to lay the patio was Isabel, Lori's oldest daughter, her birthday's in September. So we were going to have a large get-together, a birthday party, and the area around the fire pit was all mud. So we decided, well, the concrete's there in the shed. We're going to go ahead and lay that so people don't have to stand in mud during the celebration.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The colors match and very distinctive.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was that message?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The final message was on September 20th, and it says, Hi, Vanessa, how are you? Moving on, what's good on you? Hope you and your son are doing well.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Based on your review of the Ori Shaver Facebook records, were there pictures of the cement slab that was covering Michael Shaver's body prior to the September 20th date that that message was sent? Prior to that, yes, sir. And what was the IP address associated with that? 199.116.175.8. Now, did you also obtain bank records associated with Lori Shader? Yeah, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The mixer that you rented, did you use a credit card or cash? I don't remember. It could have been either or. There wasn't any effort to try to conceal your whereabouts, disguise your presence in there, correct? No. Anybody substitute their presence for you? No, sir. Did you ask anybody other than taking care of this personally? No, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After that purchase occurred, at some point, did law enforcement come to make contact with you and ask about this firearm? Correct. And at that time, did you turn this firearm over too long? I did. Your Honor, at this time of state move, states exhibit far into evidence that states 26.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Joining the defense, states tell L. Your Honor, at this time, the state moved states tell L into evidence. The defense is starting to search for people to attach. Just a quick approach.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see evidence of any crime within the residence the whole time you were there? Never. One moment, please, Judge.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. That's all I have.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you, Judge.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you, sir. Redirect. Yes, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, sidebar, please. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm showing you states 40. Do you recognize those documents?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Robert Bob Proper. I live in Groveland. I'm not sure what all you need.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know Travis Duller?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. Good afternoon. I'm Corporal Jared Strickland with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Good morning. I am Robert Seha. I am the owner and operator of the equestrian facility on the premises of the location that you guys were all talking about in this case, behind.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how do you know him?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And one of them, right? These are three A's, B's, E's, they can have statements. Did Michael Shaver and Lori Shaver maintain separate pay accounts? They did. Was there activity contained within those records that showed payments to send through like the internet service provider that they have to sell? Yes, there was.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Through my church, Real Life Christian Church.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how long have you known Mr. Duller?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Since approximately 2013, 2014, something like that.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what is your relationship? A friend.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe in mentoring and try to work with young men. And he's somebody that I met, and we became friends.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there any sort of records associated with the purchase of flowers around the time that the flowers were sent to Vanessa Nelson? Yes, there was. And publishing... portion of that, exhibit the area in red. Can you go ahead and state the date of that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And through that, have you ever met Lori Shaver? Yes. Has there ever been a time frame where you would socialize with Travis Fulmer and Lori Shaver?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, we did have some small group sessions together with other couples. We did financial counseling and some marital-type relationship counseling.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And do they assign it any special number?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The date that the transaction posted to the account was on April 8th. It says BB&T check card purchase from New Flowers. Transaction date was April 7th, and the amount of $42.98.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have any personal knowledge about when their relationship started or when they went in together or anything like that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is it unusual in your experience, both personal and in investigating financial crimes, that the actual purchase would come on the bank records on a date other than the purchase date?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not specifically, no.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And has she ever made any representations about what had happened with her prior husband?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That she was divorced and he was gone.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At some point, an investigation starts, and law enforcement is at the Shaver property, and the remains of Michael Shaver are found. Did you have any conversations with Travis Filmer about what was going on at that time?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The actual purchase that we are looking at here, is that consistent with the flowers that were sent to Vanessa Nelson? Yes, it is. The company that is reflected on there, is that a local business or is that an online company? From you, Flower Hill is an online company. So whoever is purchasing flowers through...
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, they do.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Does that number appear in the records themselves?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not specifically about those actions. My interaction with him was a little bit different than that.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
that business would not be writing out a card or anything like that, but they include a message to be sent with the flowers. Correct. And then is that from you, flowers, do they then associate with local florists who do the taxable delivery? That's correct. He means this transaction associated with the local delivery of the flowers sent to Vanessa Townsend. Yeah, it is.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point did he tell you any statements about what Lori said about Kermit? Sidebar, please. Did Mr. Culver make a statement that he said represented the problem?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We were discussing Mr. Shaver's disappearance and he made the statement basically that it wasn't a matter of he was missing, he was no longer walking the earth.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it does.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Does that number also appear on the business record certification that's included in that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further at this point.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wiggs. Hold on one second. Thank you. Just one moment, Mr. Wiggs.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, and just to be clear, as I did mention, that I'm going to be talking about Michael Shaver bank records. These DD&T records, do they indicate in there who this account belongs to? Yes, it does. And who does this account with the flower purchase belong to? This is Roy Shaver's account. Thank you, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further, Judge.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, Mr. Wiggs. Yeah, please to the court. And was that Mr. Filmer's opinion?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He's the one that told me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah. He made some statement to you that, well, maybe he stopped walking this earth, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He told me that it wasn't a matter of missing, that it was a matter of he wasn't walking the earth. That was what he said. That was his statement to me.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Anything further? No, sir. Mr. Weitz, please proceed. Thank you. Yes, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you just handle the digital data that you've just testified to in this case? Did I handle it? Yes, sir. Okay. Anybody else? Yes, sir. Pardon me? Yes, sir. Who was that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He speculated, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
His statement to me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And we renew our objection. It's not relevant. It's not frugitive to any mature effect in this case. This gun is not that linked to this crime in any form or any manner.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was his statement. Overruled. Please continue. I'm sorry?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's what you speculated his thought process was, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The entire team of investigators that were working this would have reviewed it at some point. Who was the lead officer on this case? There were several of us that could have been considered the lead detective. Who did the primary report? There were a few of us that did primary reports. Tell me everybody. Who was the primary on the case? I did very lengthy, several reports.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you get any statement in writing from the SAM?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had no need to.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have a counseling session with me?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it does.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm not a counselor. I'm a friend.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you do any counseling?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not professionally.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you do any prenatal counseling?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not professionally.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Well, I mean, you don't hold a degree.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, Lieutenant Tammy Dale also did lengthy primary reports, as well as Detective Dorrier also did primary lengthy reports. Okay. Anybody else? Yes, there were several. Okay. Who all? Sir, I couldn't name them all without seeing all of them. I know Detective Clay Watkins did reports. I know that the initial responding deputies did report. There were a multitude of people that did several reports.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you unofficially hold yourself out and give any kind of counseling?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I routinely meet with young men and older men. I'm doing that tonight.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Records that we're dealing with there are on a thumb drive. Do we have over 3,000 ages on that thumb drive?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So you do some counseling and some unofficially counseling?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I would call it mentoring.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mentoring. Okay. That's what you call it. But whatever Travis said to you, stop talking to him. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Who handled all the digital data as to the officers involved?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Just let him know. Just my word. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All I'm doing is repeating what he's told me. Okay. I don't know what you mean by that, but I can... One person may watch TFR, are you mad at him? No, I'm not. He says he doesn't. No, I'm overruled.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So I can only attest to myself to maintain that chain of custody. Whenever I received those records, I was the one that was responsible for submitting it to evidence. Once it was put, typically back then, data was put on a CD. Once it was placed into evidence, I would have a working copy on my computer that would then be shared with the other detectives that were also working the case.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But the records that they were, as they were received in their original format, I was responsible for those, and I can't speak to everybody else.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, thank you. You had mentioned early on that you were advised that the IP addresses were rolling accounts or rolling IP addresses, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please proceed.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Somebody may watch TV and see something on TV and interpret it a little different than the person seated next to him, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir. What I advised was that CenturyLink only maintains subscriber records for one rolling calendar year. Rolling year.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Certainly that can happen.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, the objection is overruled. Estates R will be entered into evidence. Estates number 26.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you very much. Thank you. Redirect. All right, please be seated. All right, sir, I'm going to make a preliminary inquiry. I'll swear you in.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Now, what happens after an extended period of time? What happens to the IP addresses that are on record with the company? For CenturyLink, I don't know what they do with their records after a year.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As you've gone through, after you've initialed it, you have gone through all of those records, looked at the pictures, things of that nature. Yes, I have. And as you went through that, are there pieces of information that identify the potential owner of that profile?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please state and spell your full legal name. My name is Austin James Filmer, A-U-S-T-I-N-J-A-M-E-S-F-I-L-M-E-R. Please raise your right hand.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Do you know whether they expire, they're deleted? No. Anything that happens still? Sir, I do not know what happens to CenturyLink's record after a rolling calendar year.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that any testimony you give today shall be the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God? Yes, sir. All right, sir. And are you married? Yes, sir. Who is your wife?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What do you know about Facebook? What happens to their records after an extended period of time?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know what their retention time frame is. However, we were able to go back at least four years in this case. Okay. With Facebook? Through Facebook, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Rebecca Urbanowski. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So Rebecca Urbanowski, not Filmer.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you purchased this gun, no statements were made from Ms. Shaver indicating that use in any crime or any ill motive purpose, correct? Correct. Do you know if Ms. Shaver had ever sold any other items from her residence? Not to my knowledge. Okay. Now, did there come a time when you contacted Ms. Shaver advising her that you'd seen somebody trespassing on her property? Correct. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct. She didn't take my last name.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, sir. And... Have you at any time seen your wife, Rebecca Urbanowski, conducting any research regarding this case?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Now, does Facebook, do their records go back and allow you to trace the records they have back to the physical address of the individual?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see your wife viewing any media concerning this case? No, sir. Have you done any research concerning this case? Have you viewed any media concerning this case? No, sir. Has your wife, Rebecca, spoken to you about conducting any research? In the case? No, sir. Has she spoken to you about commenting, making any comments on social media about the case? No, sir. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Facebook, I do not believe, collects address data.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. The registered address for the IP is a registered physical address, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The IP address that is provided by the internet service provider would be the subscriber information.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And it would be registered to a physical address, correct? Correct. Okay. Now, after a period of time, do you know whether or not that data is deleted, expires or anything happens to it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And does the state wish to inquire? No, sir. Okay. Mr. Wiggs?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir. You know if your wife's looking at any social media?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Some companies are different. Some companies, their records will expire sooner than others. Some companies keep their records for perpetuity. Do IP addresses change at all?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir. All right. Is that to the satisfaction of the parties? Yes. All right. Please introduce yourself.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My name's Austin Filmer.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, they do. Okay. So IP addresses that may be out there for a period of time can actually change? Yes, they can. And identify or use somebody else's address, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You know Travis Filmer?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How do you know him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He's my brother.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you older or younger?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We're twins.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So are you older or younger?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm four minutes older. All right. Do you know Lori Shaver? I do. And how do you know her? She's married to my brother. You see her in the front room and can you point her out? I do. She's sitting right there. Blonde hair, black jacket, polka dotted blouse.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That is correct. Okay. Which is why the date and time stamp that is on the activity is so important.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. In this case... Were you able to link up an IP address with a physical address and a device? Not through CenturyLink, no. Okay. Not through CenturyLink. Were you able to link it up from Facebook to a physical address to a device? I think I was, yes. You think he was? Yes, sir. What do you mean? Tell me. What do you mean?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, when did you first meet the defense?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was actually at my place of employment December 2015, I believe. And where do you work? I work at a fitness center in Claremont.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At the time, what was that fitness center called?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That was Gold's Gym at the time. And has it changed ownership? Not ownership, but names. What is its current name? Fitness CF.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The same IP address that was used for Lori Shaver's account was also used on Mike Shaver's account. An IP address is a unique identifier that works similar to mailing a letter through the U.S. Postal Service. So if your address was constantly changing... There's a possibility that you would not get the mail that was intended for you and vice versa.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you married? I am, yes. And what's your wife's name? Rebecca Urbanowski. Did she also work at that same facility at that time frame? Yes, sir, she did. What circumstances did you meet Lori Shaber?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how long have you been with the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My position at the time was to do an initial consultation for anyone joining the gym. So she was scheduled to do the first consultation with me, and I conducted the evaluation.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's why the date and time stamp that's on IP address logs are so important.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. This comes from Facebook.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And approximately when was this?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
December 2015.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And through that meeting, did your now wife end up becoming involved with a shamer? Yes. And under what capacity was that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Does Facebook identify with any degree of specificity what the Senator delivered your law enforcement?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So again, my job was to do a fitness evaluation and then place the potential client with a personal trainer. And my wife was a personal trainer at the time.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there is.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They received a search warrant requesting IP address logs, messages, photos, transactional information, and other content for the Facebook unique identifier. In response to the warrant, Facebook Meta, as they're called now, provided responsive records on March 8, 2019, and those records were downloaded by me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did they start basically working together as a client-trainer relationship? Yes, sir. Did they end up becoming friends? Yes. And at a certain point, did Rebecca move into Lori's home?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What kind of information is there?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Does it identify the records?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It does by the Facebook user account number.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not long after. A month or two, maybe? Yeah, not long after.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Does it identify the records themselves?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So sometime early in 2016? Yes, sir, correct. At any point, did you live at that residence?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Typically, there's a phone number as well as an email that's associated with that, along with what Facebook calls the vanity name, which is a unique identifier that cannot be changed within the Facebook records.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
By the user Facebook identity.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
By paragraph four, does it not state the records provided were an exact copy? Yes. Okay. But it doesn't tell you what the exact copy was there, does it? No, it does not. That we made and kept via automated systems. Doesn't tell you what was there, does it?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not per address, but I was there a lot, and I spent a lot of time there.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that was because your girlfriend at the time was living there? Yep, correct. And how long was Rebecca living at the Shea Residence? At least six months, at least. At some point, was there something that you believed to be a wedding in December 2016? Yes, sir, correct. Did Rebecca stay living at the home until that time?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And in the course of regularly conducted activity as a regular practice of that, the records were saved in the format after search and made as automated system. in accordance with the above specified legal process.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The records were made at or near the time the information was transmitted by META.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How did Travis and Lori end up getting together?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Through my wife and I. Well, she wasn't my wife at the time, but through my girlfriend and I at the time. My brother and I spent time together. We were together. They were friends and roommates, so we had an outing or two where they were introduced.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct? That's what it says, yeah.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then it says further, META no longer retains a copy of the records provided. Correct? So they sent you a certificate saying, we at some point in time had this data. We're sure at some point in time we sent you some accurate information, but we don't have the documents anymore to verify anything. Correct? That's what you've got a certificate saying.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did there come to be a period of time where your brother and Ms. Shaver started dating?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when did that start?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have to say maybe April, maybe.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And now we're talking 2016?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So Facebook records back in 2018, whenever we sent the search warrants?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During this time frame that your now wife was living over there, was there ever a time that you were over helping pouring a cement slab in and around the fire pit? Yes, sir. And tell me about how that came to be.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please allow the witness to finish answering.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Whenever we received the records back in 2018 in their original format, Facebook records back then were self-authenticating. What that means is that the records were contained in a... Please allow the witness to finish the response.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. My brother contacted me, asking me to help him pour concrete around an existing fire, fire pit, I should say. He stated that Lori wanted concrete poured around the fire pit itself. And I told him, sure, I'd help him out.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. Please allow the witness to finish. Please finish your response.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The records were received in a .zip folder because the files were so big that it had to be compressed to where it could be sent via internet portals. So whenever those records were received, they were in one singular folder. That folder was then put through an algorithm that's called SHA-256, which generates an extremely long chain of letters and numbers that is unique
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you ever poured a smith's lap?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As your brother?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not to my knowledge.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you guys have difficulties in pouring?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir, we did.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, after the body was found underneath that slab, did you ever have any conversations with Morty or your brother about that? Not to a large extent. I'm just asking if you had the conversations. Up until that point, had Lori ever said anything about the whereabouts of her previous husband? Not to me directly.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And as you went through those particular records, does that include photos that the user may have uploaded or someone using that account may have uploaded?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
to those records that were provided by Facebook back then. The records back then were self-authenticating. Facebook did not provide business record certifications back then because their records, according to Facebook, were self-authenticating.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Tell us about that.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, but we're dealing with records today. We're here in court today dealing with the case before us, not what was received and sent in a prior procedure, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were you ever present when Travis was talking to detectives about things Lori had said about the body underneath that slab?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Since 2006.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what is your current position or assignment?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. As stated, we have the... Sidebar, please.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir, I was.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir, those records were the records that I received in 2018.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what did you hear him say to the detectives about her husband and the body underneath that slab?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right, but we're here today, and now the records don't authenticate what you declare was self-authenticating on a prior date, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Objection. You're safe.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sidebar, please. What did you hear your brother say to the detectives about that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, come up for a sidebar.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You'd acknowledge, though, the records we just looked at doesn't contain any representation specific of any documents, does it, sir? Sure. And your testimony is based as well on a vanity name, correct? And that's a method that you use to verify the documents that you proclaim that you received, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the conversation from the detectives was a conversation that my brother had with another gentleman. And they asked him details of Michael's whereabouts, if he's known anything about their whereabouts. And his reply was something along the lines of he's no longer walking the earth.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Hold on, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, since Lori became involved with your brother, has your relationship with him changed?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you please repeat that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah. You were talking about on direct examination that there's ways of verification, and one was the vanity name on the account, correct? Sure. The vanity name is one of the unique identifiers. Okay. Do vanity names ever change? Vanity names that are internal to Facebook cannot change. Can anybody use another person's account? Absolutely. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Extremely.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how so?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
For the negative.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have as much contact with him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not nearly as much as we used to. Are you able to visit in that spot? No, I cannot go over there.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Has there ever been a time that you received text messages from your brother that you thought were unusual?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So when you say, well, we're relying on a vanity name that other people have access to, that's not a real dependable or reliable system to identify documents in the user, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So, sir, you had seen somebody trespassing upon the property, correct? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And why do they seem unusual to you?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I know the language that my brother and I use when we're speaking to each other. We say things like bro and dude. I have received texts where that language was completely changed. It was more of a direct language than anything.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see photographs of Michael Shaver throughout the Facebook profile associated? Yes, I did. Are you familiar with Facebook? I am. Did you ever have a Facebook account?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The way that I answered that was based on the assumption that you meant that somebody could use that account. No, the vanity name is not recycled. It cannot be issued to somebody else. That vanity name is unique to that account forever.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And have you ever asked him about those messages and whether or not he sent them?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, but I just spoke to you and I just said other people can have access to that account. Correct. Or if they have access to the device that it's logged into. If anybody within the residence has access to the browser or knows the password, they have access to that information. Access to the device or knows the password, absolutely. Absolutely.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what did he tell you about that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He told me it was not him and that I was blocked on his phone.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Has he ever made any statements about Lori making those texts to you?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He has told me that she blocked me on his phone, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But as far as the text messages that were unusual?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sidebar, please. Mr. Filmer, the specific text messages I'm referring to are the ones that you thought were unusual and were out of character for your brother. You ever asked him about the source of those texts? Yes, sir. And what did he tell you?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And as you said here today, you don't know which, if any, of those multiple documents that were submitted were utilized by any other individual, correct? No, sir. I know who they were used by. Okay. Did you witness the person signing in? No, sir. I did not. Okay. Did you witness the person sending? No, sir, I did not. Did you witness who was at the house at all hours, all times?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
uh correct uh i wouldn't possibly say just trespass until we're from the horse i'll get it in perspective we are 10 acres away on the other side i see a human silhouette i don't know at that time if anyone was supposed to be there or not but from the current situation of i believe that lori was off the property no one should be there
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, December 31st, 2016, did you attend a wedding ceremony at the chamber residence? Yes, sir. And who was that between? My brother and Lori. Nothing further, Judge.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir, I did not. Okay. And when somebody is at, as we spoke, at like Starbucks and people are accessing one account, you would acknowledge other people can access that same account, correct? Sure. Accounts can be hacked, correct? They can.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wiggs?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You're talking about an email you received, correct? An email? Yeah, or text. A text, yes. Okay, so you get a text on one day. Your brother denies that he sent it, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So out of the multitude of all the documents you've spoken to, you can't direct attention to this specific document or this specific document and say that came only from Lori Shade?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have a witness to homicide in this case, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir, I believe I can. Okay. In light of what you just testified to, correct? The multitude of the evidence when taken of the totality and taken of the whole, yes, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You were not present to testify here about any event of violence that may have occurred, correct? Correct. Okay. What you're saying is you got an email on one day and your brother tells you where he's sitting, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, okay. Now, did you request the Facebook records of Jeremy Townsend? No, sir, I did not. Do you know anything about Jeremy Townsend? I've met him and spoke with him. Okay. Did the state talk to you about Jeremy Townsend at all? No, sir. Anybody in law enforcement mention his name to you?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
For the questions that were asked, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Good morning. Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My name is Wilma Nicholas. Yes. He was my neighbor.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In what capacity? I'm asking you. Yes, sir. We were conducting a thorough investigation, and he was obviously part of that. Okay. Did you look into his records? No, sir, I did not.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you say he was your neighbor, where were you living?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Previously, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sandy Pines Road in Claremont.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Ultimately, when you're referring to being a neighbor, a neighbor to the residence where his body was especially found.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you look into Jeremy Townsend's bank records? No, sir, I did not. Okay. Was any kind of audit done of Jeremy Townsend?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As the neighbor, did you also know Lori Shearer? Yes. I see her in the courtroom and can you identify her by something that she's wearing?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You no longer have one? No, sir. All right. Is there anything that would prevent another individual from logging into someone's Facebook account as long as they had either the password or a device that was already associated with that and currently logged?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
An audit? Yes. No, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She's sitting over at the defendant table wearing a black blazer.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, in the records that have been thrown into evidence at this stage, is there any statement in there? And any single record about commission of a crime? No, sir. Any statement within those records about any collusive efforts to cover up a crime? No, sir. So these records allegedly deal with purportedly Lori Shaver and Deborah Townsend.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How long did you live next door to the Shavers?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The entire time that they lived there.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You were there first?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When did they first move in?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In 2014. What kind of neighborhood is it? It's rural, country, farm.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, I'm going to go ahead and show... Photograph number one from States Exhibit 15. Do you recognize this property?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Which records?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Most of the records that have been introduced here.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Deal with Michael and Lori, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And yet there's no... bearing on any crime or an attempt to cover up any crime within those records, correct? By whom? Whoever's communicating. Did you see any evidence or communications in those documents of any effort to cover up a crime? No. Any mention of a crime? No. And had there been, surely law enforcement would have made an arrest, correct? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And what property is this?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's the Shaver property.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you just step down and point without touching on the screen where your property is in relation to that?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Wharton. This is my house. This was a tech room, passport, garage, and a barn.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is there any sort of fence or anything like that between the two properties?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's a cattle fence that's just wire.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, we spoke about or we saw messages dealing with flowers. Do you know the motive of the individual that sent those?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it's nothing that will prevent you from seeing anything?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Go ahead and have a seat. Thank you. Now, would you ever socialize with them?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, in the beginning we did.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That sent the flowers? Yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there a period of time in 2014 that Michael Shaver moved out of the home?