Ivan

I'm a soldier for three years right now. So I just got used to the position. I don't know how to describe it. Just a routine, just a job. I live actually underground and eat everything that a normal human eats every day. I don't feel uncomfortable right now.

Yeah, I don't know what to say additionally.

Actually, I could imagine that, taking into consideration that the war started in 2014, and I had some thoughts that it may start again, and that I'm going to take part in defending the country.

Yeah, it's not because of a big wish, but I needed to do this because else my house would be destroyed. My family could possibly be killed. So I had no other way.

Maybe not as at the beginning. I'm tired, like most of the people here. But we have no other way.

I think that America's got its own interests in how this war must end. There is a big possibility that the American aid can stop. Well, we'll try to fight without it. It's going to be hard, but what else do we have to do?

Yeah, I'm from Europe. It's normal here. What?

Austria.

Yeah, we kind of had that history thing going.

Why Britain? It's just pure fucking chaos. I mean, I haven't been to America, so I don't know what's up. It's the best. It's sick. It's awesome. Yeah, it's pretty nice. I just can't take it. I can't take that. I just don't want to get political.

They're just weird with their, like, authoritarianism.

Oh, that's just my opinion on Britain.

No, I mean, they're trying to, like, get those, like, Trojans, like, state Trojans on their phones, which is, like, a yearly debate. Like, every year they try to, like, get that stuff in.

Yeah, just basically like state spyware. Every year they're like, hey, how about we do this to your phones? And we're like, no.

I think it's kind of like how you guys do it with the bills. They just sneak it in. Somebody just catches it and they're like, hold up. So it just doesn't go through.

Do people go to prison for praying on the street? In Britain? Yeah.

No, no, no, no. I mean Christians.

It's crazy in Europe, actually. It's getting real, like, weird politically. Like, from the top down, the EU is getting way more involved and everybody has to have, like, a stance, even though Austria is, like, neutral, like Switzerland. It's getting really weird.

I don't like it.

Yeah, I mean, I guess. What are you going to do?

Slightly weird one and going off on a tangent, but I heard it before this and I was like, it's just a really thoughtful statement. And it was the hardest things in life are not iron or gold, but unmade decisions. What unmade decision does Notion have that is heavy? You can take a moment to think about it.

Which person do you think has had the most profound impact, maybe on you and your leadership, maybe on Notion as a company, when I ask? That's a good question.

What does being cash flow positive mean you have done that you wouldn't have done if you weren't cash flow positive? What has it enabled you?

Do you think the way that companies are built today is wrong? Idea, raise 5 million on 25 after leaving Stripe, hire people, get to a million in ARR, you're an angel ambassador too, get to a million in ARR, have... excel index and everyone fired over you get to 10 million there do you think we are building companies wrong

It's funny, I had the founders of UiPath, Klaviyo, Service Titan, and none of them could raise. And it meant that they all were forced to stay very close to customers for the first few years. They didn't hire customer service teams. They didn't even hire product people because they had to do it all themselves. All three said the company would not be the success it is if they'd raised the money.

Just out of interest. What was that internal discussion? I'm fascinated.

Take me to the time where money was a really constraining factor and you decided to raise it.

$50 million at $2 billion. I mean, that's a weird raise in the way, I mean, it's a brilliant raise, but in the way that it's minimal dilution, actually, but a lot of money. $50 million buys a lot. The traditional notion is, well, VCs wouldn't like that because they can't get the ownership that they need. How do you think about that raise, the structure of it? I'm just fascinated.

How do you not let that happen? alter your mindset towards focus. You've got 50 million now, actually. You can build that new team. You can build that new product. You can do that little like or hire. How do you retain that discipline when 50 million drops?

Which makes you very rare.

What percent of budget should be allocated to tests across those different disciplines? Is it like 10 percent or is it like 50 percent?

So we do the 50 at 2 billion. And then how much did we raise at 10 billion? We raised around 270 million at 10 billion. Around 270 million to not be precise. Talk to me about the thinking there. What were we unlocking with that fundraise?

And in this particular case, there were... Do you or can you just watch others burn money in go-go times and stay disciplined?

And so we go aggressive for this year and then harder times come when we pull back?

Just thought exercise here. Is that not when you get more aggressive? Your competitors, they don't have actually the cash supplies that you do in a lot of respects. You could have gone aggressive then when they pulled back. Did you think about that?

On the 10 billion, it's a big, big valuation. How did you think about that? And how do you think about growing into that over time?

the different categories that we play in has like i think we've barely scratched the surface on it and so there's you know we're pretty excited to sort of like keep building towards that vision one of the things evaluation even matter if you're cash flow positive if you're being blunt valuation matters a lot if you're not cash flow positive because there's crunch time in 18 months when you're going back to the vc and your judgment day comes on your valuation if you don't need to go back to the vc

Is that a challenge with leaders today? You bring them in at a 10 billion price. It's high. Like seeing like, you know, 10x on that is hard.

When you look back at your fundraising, what would you have done differently? I wouldn't do anything different. How did Sequoia come together?

Do you find having Sequoia as an investor is a needle mover for a company?

What does it help most? Talent, customer acquisition, pure brand and market and ego. What is the thing that is the needle mover for?

you know service now was like 12 years and two quarters ago right and i think that's i think it's like he's seen the movie so many different times and so his mind is so structured that's what for me with him like whatever problem you have he'll break down it to like core component parts and then play it back in an incredible clarity and structure

We mentioned Pat, we mentioned Index, we mentioned CodeTwo. When investors invest and lead and write big checks, they generally get board seats. You did boards a little bit differently. How did you do a board differently actually?

What do you want in the recruits that you have to your board?

Do you think we build boards the wrong way? I lead your A, board C. Someone else leads your B, board C. Someone else leads your C, board C.

You have now arrived at your destination. Actually, I am so excited for this, dude. We did this four years ago in COVID when no one was getting out. And now you're in London, man. This is so special. Thank you for being here. Thank you for hosting. And so great to see you in person. Now, I spoke to Ivan before the show. I spoke to many people before the show.

Sure, you have a fiduciary duty to shareholders. Correct. Which can be in direct conflict with your CEO coaching.

So it's tricky. I want to do a quick fire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay? Let's do it. Okay, so what do you believe that most around you disbelieve? I think AI will create more jobs than it will kill. I stalked your Twitter. So I know that you thought this was quite a good question. What's your favorite book written before 1956?

What's your favorite essay, blog post or memo written post 2000?

It's worth a read. Best board member that you would most like to have if you were to choose one other than Jeff Weiner?

Did you ever go to the Bert Shah Hathaway event? I've been many times. Was it amazing? It's amazing. I've always wanted to go. Most memorable first investor meeting?

What's the most contrarian or unorthodox advice that you'd have for founders listening?

Basically, he stalked the shit out of you. And what I heard was actually that you have had so many different hats across the Notion journey from CMO to CFO to head of inside sales, CHRO, head of IR, CPO. I mean, Christ, I hope you're accumulating different salaries for this. But how did you learn new disciplines so quickly on the job?

Yeah, like you have amazing community on TikTok and on a lot of short form platforms. I agree with you, but has it not helped?

So you think there's now more consumption than ever? Because there's also more creation. Everyone's a creator. You can't walk down the street in London without seeing everyone creating.

Crap, I agree. But the ratio is not the problem.

The top eight enterprise valuations of edtech companies amounts to about $19 billion. OnlyFans enterprise valuation, $18.5 billion.

Well, I actually view it as our job and our role to package that more efficiently for today's society. This gets taken and put into 100 different clips for four different platforms. And I have to move with the times to deliver my content in a better package.

You have me convinced that it's not all bad. Your feed is what you make it. It's like life. If you go on my feed, actually, my feed is protein recipes, Jim, Tony Robbins and inspirational speeches. Mine's quite uplifting. The trouble is that most people are perpetually like magnetic to crap, violence and sadness.

And so you have to change the monetization mechanism.

Which would go to an Elon view of the world, which is actually moving to a subscription-based social network model and saying, fuck you to advertisers.

Would you let your children have social media?

Final one for you. What question are you not asked by hires, by team members, by investors, by people that you feel you should be asked more?

Can we take one, apply systems design in a way that you did, just so we can understand that in a more contextual manner?

This is a strange question, but everyone is going mad over founder mode and the difference between managed mode and founder mode. When you listen to the way that you're talking, it really is quite a change from traditional org structures and org designs. And it's really driven by a very product-driven founder mindset.

Do you think in the future, and with founder mode, we will see completely redesigned orgs and the traditional functions be very changed?

What things do you think we should question that we aren't questioning today?

How did you prevent the creep? There's quite a few people that start very nimble and they're really aligned to how you built the company. And then with 100 million around or with that big mouth, you know what? We can hire that extra. We can hire that. We can start that new division. We can go into enterprise early. We can do X. How did you prevent the creep with the increased brand in cash?

You said that about kind of enduring the pain. That kind of goes in stark contrast to what we're told, which is the speed of execution is the most important thing in relatively early stage companies. The willingness to wait goes against that. How do you think about that and the importance of speed?

I love the statement you said, which is the power of the veto. What did you and Ivan veto that was the benefit of hindsight maybe would have been better to do in the moment?

My team would be watching this going, oh, there's a red rag. I think values are very, very challenged when you can't take the other side. So kind and direct. I want someone nasty and indirect. No one would ask for that. Is it a good value? Because you could not take the alternative side. So like, as an example, we look for obsessed people, not like passionate.

That's not, you need to be completely obsessed. How do you think about that? And what makes a really good value in that case?

I spoke to Ivan again before and he said, listen, he's basically hired every single leader at Notion at this point, Harry. So you have to ask him about that. When you think back over your lessons on hiring, what are your single biggest lessons on what it takes to really get the best people into Notion?

When you look back, what have been some of the biggest mistakes you've made? And what are some big lessons from those?

What was the hardest team to hire and the hardest function to build out?

How did you see it hurt you? inability to hire people, the people not having direction. What was it that was, oh, this is hurting us?

And if you want to build enterprise at some point, you've got to build outbound. And you've got to build an enterprise function. And you cannot continuously rely on product inbound. Exactly. As nice as that would be for anyone. Exactly. When was that moment when you realized that?