Jacinda Ardern
Appearances
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And the thing that I think increasingly turns people off politics is the way that it's seen in the public domain is that people don't have their eyes on improving people's lives. They're in the politics. That's right. But my experience is that often people sacrifice a lot to be there and most of the time, most of the time, it's for the right reasons.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Well, it was an extraordinary moment in a string of extraordinary moments. So we'd been in opposition for nine years, so we had not been in government for a long time. And so it's pretty soul-destroying to be in that situation. Your party.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so I was the deputy leader. Now, in New Zealand, being deputy leader does not mean you are the next in line. It means actually probably you're not too threatening. Yeah. Yes. You're there as a support person to the leader. Which is where you'd always wanted to be anyway. You're not being behind the scenes. I thought I was much better suited to a role like that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But even then I found that challenging. We're seven weeks out from the election. And one day my boss and I, we receive poll numbers that say we're heading south. Things are not looking good. And, you know, my leader muses aloud to me, maybe I should step down. And, you know, the panic alarm rings for me in my head. The idea that he's contemplating departure seven weeks out from an election.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Well, I actually respect that. Well, I respect that he had that thought process. I did not appreciate it. I respect that he had the self-awareness. Absolutely. I did not appreciate that he looked at me as the possible replacement. A week after that conversation, he came to work one day, he quit and he nominated me. And so I then found myself in the position of leading the party into an election.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
You knew you were going to be nominated though, right? I had a sense that he'd suggested that if anyone was going to take over, that he thought it should be me. I thought it absolutely should not.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I meant it. So you didn't want it. I did not.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I did not. But there's always, you know, I think everyone can identify with that idea that sometimes you can have these dueling moments you know, these dueling sentiments, these dueling values. The idea on the one hand, that lack of confidence on the other, a sense of responsibility. And so the moment came that he said, well, I'm nominating you and I believe you need to step up.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
It was just time for the sense of responsibility. And you were 37? I was 37, yeah. Wow. And then the election. In New Zealand, we have a system a little bit similar to Germany. You don't always know on election night who has the numbers to form a government. So on election night, it was not clear cut.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
There was one small party that held the balance of power and they decided they would negotiate with both us and one other party. So we're in the middle of those negotiations. When I start feeling a little off. Had you missed your period? Well, there was one of the, obviously there's a number of things that suggest maybe you should think about taking a test.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
It is. It is genuinely a breathtaking place. And with beautiful people too.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I don't remember at the time them being large red flags for me. Any large red flags. Just feeling a bit off is how I would describe it. And a friend of mine suggested I take a test. And so in the middle of negotiations to find out whether I would be prime minister, I first found out I was pregnant. And you thought, what? I thought you could not write this until you did.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
So I talk a lot more about, you know, how that was a bit of a surprise because having a child had been something we'd thought about, but it did not come easy to me. And so it was a real surprise.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I didn't know if I loved the universe in that moment. I think I have probably natural levels of anxiety for someone who's 37 years old and 10 weeks ago did not anticipate being in this position and who's also pregnant.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Because you were determined that you were going to breastfeed. I was determined. I was determined. And now looking back on it, I see there were lots of reasons why I was determined. I think I saw it as a part, a series of mini tests. the test of motherhood, you know, the test to prove that I was doing what I was meant to do. But it was hard and it didn't come easy for me.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I do think the people, you know, and that is something that I've missed since I've been away. But, you know, you can still spot a New Zealander when you're out in the world often. You know, little things. I'll be walking through an airport. Recently, I saw someone walk past me with a... with a piece of greenstone, pounamu, around their neck.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
The breastfeeding didn't come easy. Yeah, it didn't. And I think I had this idea in my head that eventually it's just meant to work. But it wasn't like that. And I think it's not like that for a lot of women. And one of the reasons I wanted to write about it was to just demonstrate that, you know, out there in the images that we present sometimes, it may have looked like I was Wonder Woman.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
It may have. But I would hate that to be the sentiment because, yes, I was doing a lot and I was caring a lot, but I had a support network. I had a village. I had an incredible partner who traveled. Now a husband who traveled with me, who was our primary caregiver. And if anything, I'd like to put the spotlight on that because I don't think we should have an expectation that women do everything.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I think this is part of the reason, yeah, that you want to do it all and not be seen to break a sweat because, you know, I was at that time only the second child. leader in the world to give birth in office. And so I felt a certain amount of pressure to make sure that no one could question that it impaired my ability to do the job. Because what would that then say to anyone else?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
You know, another leader, another politician. So you've got to prove that I can do this no matter what. Yeah. So hide the morning sickness.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Hide the fact you can't quite walk straight after birth. Just make it look like it is entirely possible to do all of those things. And with the right support, you can. But it does require support.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I just yelled, kia ora, and then you just hear a kia ora ring out back in response. You know, wherever you are in the world, there's that affinity because you come from such a special place.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I don't particularly remember thinking about the magnitude of that moment. You know, for me, it was just pure logistics. Niamh was four months old. I was still breastfeeding. She had to come with me. And actually, the moment when she was photographed, I mean, you can tell that we're not aware we're being photographed. That is one of the more presentable photos of me.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Because we're in the floor. It was at an event to mark the legacy of Nelson Mandela. And so the entire floor was not full at that time. And so the press you couldn't see. I could just hear the clicking. Click, click, click, click, click, click. I did not think they were aimed on us. And so, again, I think it was just a moment where you were getting on with what was required and then afterwards...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Afterwards was the moment that I thought, well, I guess that was a historic moment. And if there's any message I want people to take, it's that there I am with my partner behind me is the person who made sure that we had a bassinet for Neve and a place to be in between time. My foreign policy advisor, she covered us so that we could go to the president's reception. You know, I had a team.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I think appreciated and appreciated. for the most part, cares for it as well. And you would have seen the natural beauty. We feel, I think, lucky to have that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Yes, you can do it all, but don't do it alone. Don't expect to do it alone. Wonder Woman deserves a sidekick too.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I know how lucky I was. I was lucky. And so... Knowing that, you know, I remember them. I've always been interested and focused on child poverty. And I put a lot of that back to, you know, observations growing up as a child. I had a wonderful childhood, but I observed children who didn't have what I had.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And then becoming a mother and experiencing having a village, I then became focused on what about all those sole parents? What about all those women who are doing this alone?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
How do they do that? And so extending paid parental leave, increasing government support for parents raising children alone, increasing access to childcare, even giving special leave to women who experience miscarriages and All of that became part of our agenda. And that was because as a government, we really thought about what it is to be a parent in the world.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And cows. And cows. Let's not forget. But I remember seeing recently that you had planned or at least wanted to hike in New Zealand to mark your birthday. Oh, yes, I'm still planning on it. But you said you couldn't find anyone to hike with. There are five million people. Who would be willing to hike with me. Who would be willing to hike with you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I remember we were very open about the fact that he was going to be the primary caregiver and I remember afterwards him sharing with me that he had had a number of men who would come and almost talk to him behind a closed hand about the fact that they had been the primary caregiver too. And so the chance to spotlight that, normalize that, we will all have different seasons.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And while my season was in office, his season was the opportunity to form this beautiful relationship with our daughter. And then he'll have a season and then I'll take on different roles. And for me, that's a beautiful partnership to have.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I think in leadership sometimes we're presented with this idea that you have to fit a particular mold. And so often parts of that mold tell you not to show emotion, not to share or show how you're feeling in any given moment. And, you know, during the aftermath of the shooting, it was almost impossible for me not to feel deeply what had happened to our Muslim community in our country.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
It just wouldn't have been possible to hide that for me.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
The idea, and because this was the motivation of the person who undertook this attack... His entire motivation was to other members of our community. Because he wanted to cause a division within... He did. He wanted to create an internal warfare. He saw New Zealand as too inclusive.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
too welcoming, and particularly in his mind to Muslim communities. He was not from New Zealand. He chose New Zealand for that reason. And he came to our country with the intention to try and cause division. And in my mind, I simply reflected in the aftermath the sentiment that I saw and I felt from New Zealanders, which was first and foremost an overwhelming sense of grief,
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
anger that someone would come and perpetrate such violence on our Muslim community and an utter rejection of everything he represented I had never felt more privileged to lead than I did during that period because I saw ultimately what New Zealanders did in response to that attack and the response of our Muslim community, which was deeply humbling.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I do. Being in Boston? I do. I miss the people. I miss the place. But it'll always be home and I'll be back. And you'll be back.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
So when people, particularly members of the Muslim community from around the world, comment on it, I mostly feel sadness. Shouldn't it be a given that after an experience like that, that you respond with humanity?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And these were, I mean, incredibly challenging moments that only I would have understood exactly, you know, the things the community were grappling with. Had I been there. And I think one of the things, one of the really important things about empathetic leadership is that you just instinctively feel like you need to be on the ground closest and closest proximity to where the crisis has happened.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I, you know, no one told me I needed to do that. No one counseled me. Often people ask me about that decision. All I remember thinking was, I'm going into the community space. They have just lost an incredible number of their family members and their loved ones. The least I can do is show respect in that moment.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so all I really remember from that moment is I packed from Wellington to get ready to go to Christchurch, was calling a friend and asking if she had a scarf I could use. No one counseled me either way. It just felt like the least I could do in that moment. And then there was that famous photograph of you with the scarf, yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And in the book, I talk a little bit about that moment because whilst a lot of the commentary was about me, when I was photographed at that time, I was listening to one of the most humbling experiences, which was a leader in the Muslim community who had just watched members of his congregation been...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I think in leadership, particularly in these times... There's a tendency at least to be provided with advice to avoid unpredictable situations. And there is often nothing more unpredictable than periods of crisis, but particularly where there's crisis and grief, understandably.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I don't know whether I'm meant to share the iterative process. You know, I remember one of the early titles I floated with the publisher. Was? Run. It was just... And they said to me, but it might convey that people should, you know, turn their back on challenging opportunities.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I think the important thing about proximity is it allows you to then understand what's needed. Empathy is nothing without action.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And hearing then in those moments what people needed. They'd lost, in many cases, their breadwinner that they may have had in that time. a lack of sense of security around their ability to continue to reside in New Zealand. There are a whole range of issues that by having that proximity you understood, and true empathy is then actually following through with action.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Now that you've seen it, now that you've heard it, what will you do about it? We are here just 26 days after the most devastating of terrorist attacks in New Zealand's history. When I visited the hospitals and the victims, None of them had just one gunshot wound. In every case, they spoke of multiple injuries, multiple debilitating injuries.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I could not fathom how weapons that could cause such destruction and large-scale death could have been obtained legally in this country.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
In my mind, one of the beautiful things about New Zealand and New Zealand is such a pragmatic people. And every time you see crisis in New Zealand, whether or not it's a weather event or in this case, that alongside the care and support you see the community provide, there's that, now what can we do? And that is reflected then in an expectation of leaders. What will you do?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And there were two things. One was, well, first of all, we know that he was able to take the lives of so many because he had access to military-style semi-automatic weapons, particularly AR-15s. And then it begs the question, well, How was he able to get access to those? And the answer was legally.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I remember in that briefing, which was only the day after the shooting when I received that briefing and was told he legally obtained those weapons, you know, my immediate instinct was, well, that can't stand. And I had that strong sense that even though I had to consult with other members of Parliament to get their support, I just had a sense that New Zealanders would want that to change.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so when I went down to... But he wasn't even from New Zealand. He wasn't. He was from Australia. And there's a range of things that make things a bit easy when you're from the closeness of our relationship. But he was able to legally obtain those weapons.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I think that was a shock to New Zealanders that you could so easily access weapons that were able to take the lives of so many so quickly.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Nobody had. Just the range of injuries and the scale of injuries. And so I just instinctively knew, and I think MPs knew, that New Zealanders would be behind them. And they were. When they cast the vote, 119 of 120 members of parliament supported the banning of military-style semi-automatic weapons in New Zealand. And so when we passed that law, we bought them back.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I said, well, that's part of the appeal for me, because actually my first instinct when faced with really, you know, huge responsibility was run. But actually, I also wanted it to be a call to action, you know, to push through that, to take on the opportunity to run for elected office or whatever might come your way. But in the end decided it might be misconstrued as a jogging book.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
So people who had them, we paid for them. And then we destroyed them. Well, what do you say that people say, well, you didn't get rid of all of them? You know, in our minds, of course, understanding that New Zealand, you know, we are hunters, we have pests. There's a number of reasons why people hold guns.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But weapons like that, they're designed to take the lives of a large number of people in quick order. And in this case, they did. And yes, you know, we still have weapons in New Zealand, but we do not routinely now have these ones. And that was, I think, an incredibly important response to this attack.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Yeah, we're like, I guess everyone started with a small number. And that was one of the things when we looked out into the world, because we were later in receiving COVID, it took a little longer to get to our shores. Our first case was the 28th of February in 2020. So we could see what was happening.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And we also knew from modeling what it would mean for our population, tens of thousands of people losing their lives. And I remember being presented with that as a leader. I talk a little bit in the book about how there's so few decisions where you can draw that direct line between your decision and life and death. But a pandemic is one of them.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And one of the things that we decided to do really early on was just share everything we knew about this illness.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Just to be transparent, but also everything we didn't know. And as a result of that, you know, when it came to the point that we made the decision that actually we need to close our borders and see if we can try and keep New Zealand COVID free till we have another way of protecting people.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But by sharing all of that, New Zealanders could see not only the decisions we were making, but the choices we had. And I think that made a difference in people supporting the course of action. And accepting it. Yeah. Certainly in the beginning. In the beginning. And look, there is no question. You know, I look around the world. It was an incredibly difficult thing to govern through.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
So how would you describe this last week? If there is like a subterranean space that sits beneath hell. That. No response was perfect. Populations around the world would have reflections on what they believed their governments did right and what they did wrong. And after the pandemic, we put in place a royal commission, people to go and ask those questions for us.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so we ended with this. And for me, I think a different kind of power, I... You know, I think I could go as far back as to say I really grew up with a series of character traits that over the years I believed were weaknesses. Things that I thought would hold me back in life, you know, a lack of confidence being a significant one.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Look at how we can be better prepared next time.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Thank you. Because that one I rewrote and rewrote and rewrote because I was processing it. You know, I came out of COVID and it was a... I had two goals, and I've talked about this a bit. One was to save people's lives, but the other was to keep people together, and I didn't achieve both. I found that so hard. I still find it hard.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Yes, exactly, exactly. And so it's hard to feel upset about that. And when people say, what do you regret? I find that really simplistic because...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I absolutely agree with you. And it's one of those things that you then realize how much through your life you rely on the ability to still just communicate with someone. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And that if you can at least talk to them and you can have that dialogue, then if there is that, you know, that bizarre view that someone might have, that conspiracy theory that you think you might be able to talk that through, but you can't.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I just don't understand how anyone could assume that I'm so cavalier about having a whole city and over a million people in lockdown of course I think about it all the time I have to take sleeping pills so I don't think about it all the time
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so the only thing that you can, you know, it took me a while to get to this, but the only thing that you can hold on to in those moments is that you know. what your motivation is, you know that you're just trying to make the right decisions.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And even, I think, I remember my hardest moments looking out when we did have an occupation on Parliament's grounds and thinking, well, they think they're protecting people's lives too. And so do I. We actually want for the same things. We have just come at it from completely different corners. And I do spend a lot of time reflecting on it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But I still give myself as much grace as I can that we were motivated by the right things. And that was to save people's lives. For all the thinking I give to what I would have done differently, I would still rather be sitting in front of the public and explaining why perhaps we did too much differently. rather than why we did too little.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Because the doing too little was the difference between people living and people dying.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
So we would use lockdowns when there were cases that we couldn't trace. So that's when we would use it. And ultimately, it meant that we had fewer days in lockdown than most countries. And when we were out, we had relative normality. Yes. And I think importantly, we saved an estimated 20,000 lives. But it came at a cost, you know, for everyone globally.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I think there is globally now this unease that the way that we'd experienced the world was upended. Suddenly you could have something that you just didn't see coming and it can fundamentally change your life in an instant. And we already have such a sense of uncertainty in the world, technological developments, the impact of, you know, the changing economies that we have, multiple wars raging.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
We have a sense of insecurity that the pandemic just exacerbated so much. And I think as leaders, and this is one of the things I talk about a lot, we have options in this environment now. We have the option of actually tackling the core of the difficult problems we have presented to us, which is hard. Or we have the option of blaming others.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
of saying that the cause of the insecurity you feel or the financial insecurity you feel is this group or this group. And that is a quick and easy way to do politics. Incite fear. It's the oldest trick in the book, but it is the most harmful and the most damaging. And I talk openly about the alternatives because they exist.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
There are leaders who champion empathetic leadership, who actually want to solve the problems. But what we see a spotlight more often is that alternative. I wish so much that we can turn towards those more optimistic, hopeful and inclusive responses to problems rather than the fear that we see people reach to.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
If I could distill it down into one concept that we are pursuing in New Zealand, it is simple and it is this. Kindness.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
You know, I was 14 years old when someone first used the term imposter syndrome. And it was just like something clicked. Suddenly I had words to describe how I'd felt for every speech competition I did or any challenge where I just had a bit of a seed of doubt and a fear that something might expose that I shouldn't be there. I think a lot of people have it. I know a lot of people have it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
There are other politicians, there are politicians out there and leaders out there. who believe in solving those core fundamental problems rather than politicking around them. I see it. I see it. I've met them. I run a fellowship program called Field to support that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I see it at lots of different levels. I see it in leadership. I think the president of Mexico at the moment is... so genuinely focused on the well-being of her people through difficult times. I see it in lots of places, but I see it at, you know, new incoming MPs, MEPs. We need to shine a light on them because I think people are losing their hope in politics.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And yet there are people that they should feel hopeful about.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I had certain mantras that would run through my head. And the one that was most common was just, let this be the right decision. Let's be the right decision. And that didn't always mean the most popular decision. I could carry the weight of an unpopular decision if it felt like it was the right one. I could wear a lot if it felt like the right one. But just let it be the right thing to do.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
One of the strengths of all of those things that I thought would hold me back of a little bit of that self-doubt was actually I would prepare. I would bring in experts. I would use people who had the knowledge and expertise to give me the best possible advice. I would read everything I could about a challenge that was presenting itself. And then I would overlay my values and my intuition.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Yeah, you knew as much about COVID as a doctor did because you were studying it every night. I was mocked for that in some cases by the people I worked with. This is sitting between me and going to sleep now, this and you. And so for me, that idea of the right decision was never just about instinct and values. It was also about... Having the right information? Having the right information.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And, you know, that trait, that trait of imposter syndrome drove me to lead like that. That was a strength in the end.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And have the humility to know that you don't know all the answers and to bring in the people who might and to draw on that expertise.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And to say from time to time, I don't know. Because it's very different than I don't have a plan. And you can lead and be open about what you know and what you don't. And actually it can build trust. FDR was that kind of leader. And he communicated so directly to people during crisis, during the depression and war times, what he knew and what he didn't know.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I think people built trust around him as a result. Who were other leaders you've admired? Well, I think, you know, when I look at the United States, I look at times of crisis. I mean, I do draw back to FDR because there was an empathy to him. And maybe that came from personal circumstance, but it manifested in the way that he did the job. In New Zealand, we have similar political leaders.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I remember as a... child our cat was named norm and my father named him us after a prime minister norman kirk and as i grew older i read a little bit more about him and he was asked in a prime time interview once you know what you know his greatest achievement is such an uh you know an entree into spouting off whatever policy as a politician you might have
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
He said the letters that he received after they increased benefits for the most vulnerable, one letter where a woman said she could finally afford shoes, new shoes. And what a relief it was to her. And here was this moment with this prime minister, you know.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But we don't talk about it because we have that fear that if you are too articulated, that that will be a sign of weakness, that people will lack confidence in you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
huge stature he was a solid a solid man with such presence but speaking so softly and quietly about a woman being able to now afford shoes new shoes and it just stayed with me the fact that he was someone running a country in an individual moment could be so meaningful to him so i i've been surrounded by great examples and perhaps it started with my parents
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
When you're in politics, people always expect you to spout off all of these, your political role models. But mine is an Antarctic explorer, you know, who actually failed multiple times.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
He did not get there. But he saved his men. He saved his men. And he had such a humility in his leadership as well.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
It says, optimism is true moral courage. And I think there are so many reasons that resonates with me. And one is that I think we treat hope and optimism often as if they're naive. And yet the way that he talks about optimism is that actually it's a courageous act and it's a deliberate decision.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And in the circumstances that he was in and when he's quoting lines like this, he was basically stranded in Antarctica with no hope of rescue, a sunken ship. Yeah. You just knew those men were going to die. Oh, yeah. Well, and yet, in that moment, what a courageous act it is to be optimistic.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And without that, you know, it would have impacted, I think, their survival. It would have.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But don't let anyone tell you you're naive if you're optimistic.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so today I'm announcing that I will not be seeking re-election.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I know what this job takes. And I know that I no longer have enough in the tank to do it justice.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I struggle to pinpoint the origin of it. It certainly was. I mean, I had the most encouraging family. Yes. I had wonderful teachers.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Politicians are human. We give all that we can for as long as we can. And then it's time. And for me, it's time.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I mean, the point at which I made the decision was a good year after any of that. And there was nothing particularly occurring at the time.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
There was no thing. And in fact, I knew when I came to make the announcement that people would wonder, what is the one thing? And there was no one thing. It wasn't one thing.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
It was a range of different things. A range of different trigger points, all of which, for me, pointed to, am I still the leader I believe I need to be in order to do this job well? So I felt like I was becoming a bit more defensive than I wanted to be. Oh, my God.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Yeah. Yeah. I thought everyone ran through that in their mind from time to time.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Or perhaps in some cases they feel a responsibility to stay. And that is real. I know that to be true because when I talk to a very small group, because I could only talk to a small group, about the fact I was considering stepping down, one of the things that was raised, well, we have an election. There are people that are relying on you. And I felt that weight of responsibility so, so acutely.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But actually that was also the thing that... that helped me make the decision. If I knew that perhaps I didn't have in reserve what was required for crisis and I'd seen enough of them to know what you required, and if I felt that I was becoming more defensive and maybe that my curiosity wasn't what it used to be, those were signs that it would be irresponsible to stay.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And as soon as I gave myself... The permission to think about it like that, that was when I made the call. Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I tried to write about the decision and you can see it's a very iterative thing. And that's because I think that's reality.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I don't know. Actually, you know, it was therapy with a deadline. So it ended up helping in lots of ways. But writing about the act of leaving. You know, it was, it was a series of conversations. It was a series of thoughts and moments that culminated in the decision. And once I made the decision, then it just came, it was then just about telling people.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I was, I was... You were ready. I was ready, but I was also afraid.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Incredible role models. Incredible role models. And so this, you know, when I think back, what was the source of this confidence gap? I couldn't tell you. I think that a number of people who have talked about it often might say the same thing. It's something they identify quite early on and they can't tell you its origin. But I notice it in our young people.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Yeah, I think when you're in politics, you're trained. You spend years being acutely aware of what everyone thinks. And it's part of your job. I didn't want to let people down. I didn't want to disappoint people. And so walking away, yeah, it felt like it was a lonely decision and it was a hard decision, but I've never regretted it and I've never felt like it was the wrong one.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
That has always been my least favorite part. I mean, that sounds so silly. My least favorite part of politics is politics. You know, I was always attracted to it because of what you could do. Yeah, of the service. If you're one of those idealistic young people who wants to change the world, what better place than politics? It's incredible what you can do with it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I still believe in it now more so than even when I went in. But the day-to-day of it is difficult because that's what you have to do in spite of why you're motivated to be there. And I know I'm not alone in that. There are people who love the sport. And there are people who just love what you can do.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Well, two things. Full speed to slow speed. The great thing about, you know, running a country like New Zealand is that it's small and so you do get to maintain lots of normal things. You know, you're supermarket shopping and you're from time to time a drop off for Neve. I could still do that from time to time. But you're right, the pace, the pace of life suddenly turns off like a tap.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But even though the expectation wasn't there anymore, it didn't really change the way I behaved. And so I probably now have an issue now that the book is finished because for a while that was... That was what you were doing. At nighttime, I would write, you know, a spare waking moment, I would write. And it's only now after two years that I'm sitting still for a bit.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I can tell you, my husband doesn't like it. No, I don't think he thinks it suits my personality particularly.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
He did a good... I think only he could have, really. He's a broadcaster. And so when suddenly I become leader of my party, he just picked up his phone and started filming me. And you can... You can see in the film, I'm not always happy about that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And, you know, not with a great plan in mind. He just thought it was a moment in history to capture. And for me, it was a chance to humanize leadership in a moment in time when I think we could all benefit from humanizing one another.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I remember as a young member of parliament going in to give a speech about leadership to a group of young women. They were aged from probably about 13 to 15. And I went through an exercise with them where I said, I want you to write down your dream occupation, the thing that you, if you could do anything, would love to do with your life.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
We've got a hyper-partisanship now that I think can be really damaging. It means we don't work together as much. It means we don't listen and engage in a respectful debate that we need. And if we are to get back to doing all of those things, because we won't solve the climate crisis unless we do, we won't solve the conflict in the Middle East unless we do, we have to re-humanize one another again.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
After the attack in New Zealand on March 15, one of the things I became really interested in was how do we get to a place where individuals are radicalized to harm and to violence? I wanted to understand how that could happen in our world. And one of the precursors to that, certainly in the academic writing, is this idea of binary thinking. Mm-hmm. putting people into groups of good and evil.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And the moment that you can put people into those classifications and the moment you dehumanize them, that's when you see acts of terrorism. That's when you see acts of violence. Absolutely. And so I do. I think it's incredibly important that we find ways to remember our shared humanity. And if anything that March 15 taught me was that we have that in us.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
We have that in us, but there are so many things that make that more difficult in this modern age. Now, I cannot determine what will define my time in this place, but I do hope I've demonstrated something else entirely, that you can be anxious, sensitive, kind, and wear your heart on your sleeve. You can be a mother or not. You can be all of these things. And not only can you be here,
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
You know, after I left office, I never particularly saw myself moving into the space of talking about leadership. I thought there are people who have studied this. It's their life's work. You know, just because I've been a leader doesn't mean I'm an expert in it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
But when I sat down and worked through what would have made a difference for me as a leader, having that network of others who understand what it is to be in politics and to be leading empathetically and with a particular view of leadership, it would have made a real difference to me to have a network of others who are doing the same. And
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I know, as I've talked about, that there are leaders out there who are leading in that way and may benefit from having that network. And so I started Field. It's a year-long fellowship program for people who are working in and around politics who believe in empathetic leadership. to just support them in their endeavors, just provide that network to help them keep going.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And they diligently, I saw them all thinking for a moment, writing it down. And then I said to them, now I want you to write down what you think you'll do. And you know, in a way, it was a trick question. I thought that they'd be confused by it. I thought they'd write the same thing twice. Nope, straight away, pens were picked up and they wrote down what they believed.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And also to demonstrate that it is a successful way to lead and that there is support for that way to lead from voters, from the public, for the people that we serve.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
I remember feeling that after I read it aloud several times. That probably sounds like a really strange thing to do. I think every author should. I read it aloud several times probably because, you know, I'm not an author. I considered myself a speechwriter. I would write all my major speeches.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Shocking as I know that will be for people. And so my training, I think, was speech writing. And so I would always read a speech aloud. And so I thought, I'm going to do that with the book. I read it aloud several times. It was after I recorded the audio book. that I remember standing back from it and thinking, you know, that is the best that I could have done.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I think actually that's how I felt after I left office. I did my best. And I think when you're someone who does suffer from a confidence gap, that in itself is actually a pretty significant achievement to say, actually, I know I did my best.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And please come back to New Zealand. There's a lot of people wanting to hike with you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I asked a handful of them, okay, tell me your dream job. And one girl said to me, I'd like to be a doctor. I said, that's wonderful. And what do you think you'll be without skipping a beat? Oh, I'll be probably a travel agent. You know, these two vastly different occupations. And I asked her, why do you think that you'll be a travel agent?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
She said, I just think someone else will be better at being a doctor than I will be. And here we are. I mean, this young woman, what is it in her life at that early stage had given her that mindset that it was there. And so I... I do think there are more people than we know.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And perhaps this is one of the reasons why I feel so motivated to talk about and to articulate and to say out loud the thing that I think some people just don't, which is... Yeah, I've had a confidence gap my whole life. Still do. It's not something I think you can magically disappear or press away.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
In the face of isolationism, protectionism, racism, the simple concept of looking outwardly and beyond ourselves, of kindness and collectivism, might just be as good a starting point as any.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Well, you mentioned earlier my father, you know, and actually both my parents were incredible role models. And in the process of writing about childhood, one of the things that came through to me clearly, which I already knew to be true, was how influential their example was to me. My father was a policeman for 40 years before retiring.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And there were so many times when I saw him policing in the community, but we lived in a very small town for a time. And so I got to see close up him at work. And he always had, I think, that approach to policing, that he was a member of a community first and foremost. And if he was going to police successfully, he needed to build trust.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And to build trust, he needed to try and bring dignity to the work that he did. I remember one day, I was only little, I probably would have been maybe six or seven. And to get into, to walk into the little township, which I'd do every so often to go and get a bag of lollies or something, I would cut through the car park of the police station.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And I remember coming through one day and seeing my dad surrounded by what in reflection I know were gang members. And I knew enough to know that it looked like a pretty bad situation. And my dad clocked me and he told me to just keep walking. And so off I went, but then worrying the entire time about how my dad got out of that situation.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
That night I asked him about it, thinking that because he was so outnumbered that he must have had to have used force in some way. And he looked so disappointed at my assumption. And I remember him saying to me, the greatest tool that I have will always be my words.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so he was someone who modeled, role modeled, I think, to me, as did my mother, the importance of communication, the importance of empathy, the importance of kindness, even in such a difficult job like policing. And so I think that was probably some of the earliest examples for me of how there can be a strength and a power to kindness and empathy, which we often forget in leadership.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
How do we shine a light on the humanity that I know is still there and amongst everything else?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Before, before, I might not have always articulated it as kindness. You know, at first, I think when I went into politics, The cut and thrust was always the bit that I struggled with. We have a Westminster system in New Zealand, so it can be quite aggressive. It can be a bit of a bear pit. And I remember feeling that actually as a thin-skinned, sensitive person, it was a hard place to be.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so originally I thought, well, to survive here, I have to toughen up. But there was a politician who rightly pointed out to me that actually being sensitive is a form of empathy and that actually can be a kind of power. A different kind of power. A different kind of power. A strength, not a weakness. Yes. And so I made a decision that, okay, then that was something I was going to hang on to.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And it might not make me a successful politician because if our markers of success in politics or in leadership are, you know, to be overly confident or to bring ego or to be brash, then maybe I wouldn't succeed. But that's okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
Wouldn't you say? Well, certainly that seems to be, I think, the assumption we have. And yet I think people would also agree that politics is a hard place to be. It is a hard place to be.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power
And so for the most part, my experience, at least in New Zealand, was that for the most part, even when you're on different sides of the house, for the most part, people are usually motivated to improve the place they live in, to improve... the lives of the people around them. They often just have very different ideas of what that looks like. How they're going to go about doing it.