Jack Recider

Of course, journalists and investigators continued asking the Greek government questions, which led us to learn something new.

Of course, journalists and investigators continued asking the Greek government questions, which led us to learn something new.

Wait, so the Sudanese government said, yeah, we did buy it?

Wait, so the Sudanese government said, yeah, we did buy it?

What? What? What is happening here? Someone at Intellexa applied for an export license to sell their spyware to a group in Sudan who is notorious for committing crimes against humanity. And the Greek government is like, yep, approved. Go for it. Doesn't this put some kind of responsibility now on the Greek government for assisting Sudan in the proliferation of digital weapons?

What? What? What is happening here? Someone at Intellexa applied for an export license to sell their spyware to a group in Sudan who is notorious for committing crimes against humanity. And the Greek government is like, yep, approved. Go for it. Doesn't this put some kind of responsibility now on the Greek government for assisting Sudan in the proliferation of digital weapons?

I'm just so tired of things being blatantly wrong in the world and nothing being done about it. I need some help here. Hello, hello. Let me just turn all the vibrations off. All right.

I'm just so tired of things being blatantly wrong in the world and nothing being done about it. I need some help here. Hello, hello. Let me just turn all the vibrations off. All right.

This is John Scott Railton. He's been on the show a few times, and I just like to call him JSR. He works with Bill at Citizen Lab, and he got his hands on this predator malware and analyzed it further. I told him how mad and upset and frustrated I was about all this, and JSR being JSR tried to help.

This is John Scott Railton. He's been on the show a few times, and I just like to call him JSR. He works with Bill at Citizen Lab, and he got his hands on this predator malware and analyzed it further. I told him how mad and upset and frustrated I was about all this, and JSR being JSR tried to help.

Oh my God.

Oh my God.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not ready to get that deep about my feelings right now. Hold on. Let's reset. Why I called JSR was because I wanted to talk with him about the ethics of all this, not how I get depressed about it. Okay, so let's try to understand the implications of all this.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not ready to get that deep about my feelings right now. Hold on. Let's reset. Why I called JSR was because I wanted to talk with him about the ethics of all this, not how I get depressed about it. Okay, so let's try to understand the implications of all this.

Yeah, and looking at this, I stumbled upon this thing called the ISS World Conference, which seems to be just a venue of all these mercenary spyware groups.

Yeah, and looking at this, I stumbled upon this thing called the ISS World Conference, which seems to be just a venue of all these mercenary spyware groups.

Yeah, I spoke about this in episode 98, which is called Zero Day Brokers. There are people who came through the NSA and were developing exploits while working there, and they realized that they could start their own company developing exploits and then sell that to the NSA and make more money doing that than if they were to work at the NSA. And yeah, some of this tech looks hot.

Yeah, I spoke about this in episode 98, which is called Zero Day Brokers. There are people who came through the NSA and were developing exploits while working there, and they realized that they could start their own company developing exploits and then sell that to the NSA and make more money doing that than if they were to work at the NSA. And yeah, some of this tech looks hot.

So I can imagine some other countries wanting this capability too. And while their internal forces may not be sophisticated enough to develop it, they may have the cash to buy it. And who knows where they're buying viruses and malware from, you know? So I'm trying to find that line in my head of when this goes wrong, where's that ethical line? And I've got spy tools myself, right?

So I can imagine some other countries wanting this capability too. And while their internal forces may not be sophisticated enough to develop it, they may have the cash to buy it. And who knows where they're buying viruses and malware from, you know? So I'm trying to find that line in my head of when this goes wrong, where's that ethical line? And I've got spy tools myself, right?