Jake Humphrey

Sometimes it's coaches.

Sometimes it's the adults in your life that turn a blind eye to it or facilitate it.

I think the thing about it is it's like an ecosystem.

There's no one reason why people dope.

There's lots of different factors.

And I think if we can come at it from a place of understanding and empathy, you can help people make better decisions.

Well, shall we hear from James Witt, the author of the book Dope?

I'd love to, and the book's out now, if anybody wants to explore it a little bit deeper, but I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

James, it's a pleasure to have you with us here, and I absolutely loved your new book.

I'm interested, what surprised you the most in the writing of it?

Yeah.

And was it specific sports then where this disconnect was highest?

okay because your book reminded me of um i remember reading many years ago a book by tyler hamilton the cyclist who who like revealed that he had been doping and that book so it was the first time i'd had real empathy with somebody that though uh so that dogs he spoke about how i think he was a painter and decorator from colorado and he spoke about this uh paniagua that like bread and water he cycled in the sort of european tour

clean and was coming bottom and was being risked having his funding cut and having to go back to being a painter and decorator and then having the opportunity to dope meant that he got to carry on living his dream and i think what your book shows james is that doping is rarely just about one bad decision it seems to be a mix of pressure ambition culture opportunity when have you seen the desire to win tips over into crossing this ethical line

It was that famous incident, wasn't it, where Lance Armstrong like publicly denounced somebody that had broken that Emerta.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We present it in such binary terms that I think your book shines a light in, in the shadows to go, but none of this is, is, is so obviously right or wrong or good or bad.