Janneke Wachowiak

So I think the UK always had a bit of a special relationship with the EU in the sense that it used to have all these opt-outs when it was still a member of the European Union.

So, for example, it, of course, never agreed to join the Euro Union.

It wasn't part of the Schengen zone.

So I think a lot of EU member states saw the UK as a really important member state, but at the same time, maybe as a bit of a reluctant member state as well.

So I think it's always been a bit of a complicated relationship, even before the Brexit days.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, I think the result of the Brexit referendum came as a huge shock for member states.

And it also led to fears, quite existential fears, because there was this kind of theory of the domino effect that other member states might want to follow in the UK's footsteps.

And of course, Brexit had an effect on the EU as well.

I mean, they lost a hugely important member state, a member state which not only has a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, but also a member state that has got a nuclear deterrent.

that has a lot of kind of soft and hard power cloud.

So that was a loss for the EU.

It also had an impact on the EU economically.

I mean, the economic impact wasn't as keenly felt in the EU as it was felt in the UK.

But nevertheless, certain member states that trade a lot with the UK were affected.

I think it's been a bit of a roller coaster over the last 10 years or so.

I mean, I think the years of the Brexit negotiations were very divisive and had a hugely negative impact on the relationship and particularly on trust between the two sides.

I mean, I think we had some real low points there, particularly during Boris Johnson's premiership.

And then kind of over time, we had improvements.

I think particularly Rishi Sunak's premiership did a lot of good in the sense that he was able to negotiate the Windsor framework and resolve the Northern Ireland question, which had been hanging over the relationship.