Jeff Melnick

But there are power differentials. Right. And the Manson women become something like that role for Dennis Wilson and for Terry Melcher, who's this incredibly important music producer, produces first Paul Revere, the Raiders, the birds. Like he's right at the heart of it. He's Doris Day's son. He's literally the son of like the image of white bread in American culture.

But there are power differentials. Right. And the Manson women become something like that role for Dennis Wilson and for Terry Melcher, who's this incredibly important music producer, produces first Paul Revere, the Raiders, the birds. Like he's right at the heart of it. He's Doris Day's son. He's literally the son of like the image of white bread in American culture.

And that's something that like they all I mean, one of the fascinating things when I start doing the research for the book is like, how little any of those people wanted to talk about, you know, I reached out to a few of them just, you know, want to do some of the people connected to the Beach Boys, and they were nobody wanted to touch it.

And that's something that like they all I mean, one of the fascinating things when I start doing the research for the book is like, how little any of those people wanted to talk about, you know, I reached out to a few of them just, you know, want to do some of the people connected to the Beach Boys, and they were nobody wanted to touch it.

Um, to the level that like, even when I wanted to quote Neil Young's song, that's, you know, loosely based on the, the Manson case, his people were just like, no, you can't like, usually this is like in the weeds a little bit, but like, usually when you ask to quote lyrics, the company that owns it says, sure. Send us 5,000 bucks like that. It's a money making thing.

Um, to the level that like, even when I wanted to quote Neil Young's song, that's, you know, loosely based on the, the Manson case, his people were just like, no, you can't like, usually this is like in the weeds a little bit, but like, usually when you ask to quote lyrics, the company that owns it says, sure. Send us 5,000 bucks like that. It's a money making thing.

Neil Young's people all these years later were like, he does not want to be associated with this.

Neil Young's people all these years later were like, he does not want to be associated with this.

Exactly. Oh, my God. And they were all they were hanging out together. They were dancing together, you know, in the Sunset Strip clubs. And it's not just music people. It's film people, too. Right. Because this is the moment of the new Hollywood. So Dennis Hopper is tied up with these, you know, with these people. Right.

Exactly. Oh, my God. And they were all they were hanging out together. They were dancing together, you know, in the Sunset Strip clubs. And it's not just music people. It's film people, too. Right. Because this is the moment of the new Hollywood. So Dennis Hopper is tied up with these, you know, with these people. Right.

Like these names who are like crucial people in American culture are dancing with these marginal freaks. Yeah. Yeah.

Like these names who are like crucial people in American culture are dancing with these marginal freaks. Yeah. Yeah.

They do. And Dennis Wilson, I mean, he's in his own way a vulnerable character. He's not the creative engine of the group. He's an important musician, but- If there was a real Beach Boy, it was Dennis Wilson. Yeah, exactly. He's the only one who surfs of the Beach Boys. And he not only takes up with the Manson women, he- gets kind of convinced by Charlie's rap.

They do. And Dennis Wilson, I mean, he's in his own way a vulnerable character. He's not the creative engine of the group. He's an important musician, but- If there was a real Beach Boy, it was Dennis Wilson. Yeah, exactly. He's the only one who surfs of the Beach Boys. And he not only takes up with the Manson women, he- gets kind of convinced by Charlie's rap.

And he like, he very famously gives an interview to a British music magazine in, in 68 saying like, Oh my, you know, we, you know, me and the, me and my brothers have a record company at one of our first acts is going to be this guy, you know, Charlie Manson, he's a wizard.

And he like, he very famously gives an interview to a British music magazine in, in 68 saying like, Oh my, you know, we, you know, me and the, me and my brothers have a record company at one of our first acts is going to be this guy, you know, Charlie Manson, he's a wizard.

He's like a guru, you know, and like, he's talking this up in public, you know, like this very kind of dark, weird scenario he's presenting as like, this guy's great. He's a great musician. We're going to record him. And he gives Manson personally this sense of legitimacy that he belongs in this scene and that he's a part of it.

He's like a guru, you know, and like, he's talking this up in public, you know, like this very kind of dark, weird scenario he's presenting as like, this guy's great. He's a great musician. We're going to record him. And he gives Manson personally this sense of legitimacy that he belongs in this scene and that he's a part of it.

And he never gets really that what these guys want from him are women in drugs. He's like a pimp in a few different ways. Exactly.

And he never gets really that what these guys want from him are women in drugs. He's like a pimp in a few different ways. Exactly.

And it's so shady. I mean, this isn't just LA. This is like, the sites that matter are like Venice Beach, real honky tonk, really marginal folks, what we would now call street people, and just kind of folks who are not mainstream culture. And all of a sudden, they find themselves in Dennis Wilson's mansion, like up on the hill, And it's a wild moment of cultural mixing.

And it's so shady. I mean, this isn't just LA. This is like, the sites that matter are like Venice Beach, real honky tonk, really marginal folks, what we would now call street people, and just kind of folks who are not mainstream culture. And all of a sudden, they find themselves in Dennis Wilson's mansion, like up on the hill, And it's a wild moment of cultural mixing.

And spawn ranch, just to like, to try to draw a picture for listeners. Like I'm always, whenever I was out on research trips in LA, I was always like, I, I caught to spawn ranch or where it was in Chatsworth. And for East coast people, this is shocking. Cause it's like, this is still LA. Like, cause it's, it just feels like this kind of hard scrabble, desert-y, you know?

And spawn ranch, just to like, to try to draw a picture for listeners. Like I'm always, whenever I was out on research trips in LA, I was always like, I, I caught to spawn ranch or where it was in Chatsworth. And for East coast people, this is shocking. Cause it's like, this is still LA. Like, cause it's, it just feels like this kind of hard scrabble, desert-y, you know?

So yeah, the Mansons basically take over spawn ranch, which had been from the thirties on an actual movie ranch.

So yeah, the Mansons basically take over spawn ranch, which had been from the thirties on an actual movie ranch.

Yes.

Yes.

They just went out there to ride horses. At that point, the ranch was basically like a tourist site where you could get... They were still filming some TV commercials. And also, I think Bobby Beausoleil, who ends up associated with the family, actually filmed a porn Western out there. It was on its last commercial legs, but you could go out there and ride horses.

They just went out there to ride horses. At that point, the ranch was basically like a tourist site where you could get... They were still filming some TV commercials. And also, I think Bobby Beausoleil, who ends up associated with the family, actually filmed a porn Western out there. It was on its last commercial legs, but you could go out there and ride horses.

And then they kind of ingratiate themselves with... Very elderly George Spahn, who likes the young women too, one in particular, Lynette. Sure. You know, Lynette Fromm becomes like quite literally his handler, and they just move in there, and they take it over.

And then they kind of ingratiate themselves with... Very elderly George Spahn, who likes the young women too, one in particular, Lynette. Sure. You know, Lynette Fromm becomes like quite literally his handler, and they just move in there, and they take it over.

And they just set up shop there. They live there and they set up, you know, and this is, there's a really cool novel called the girls by Emma Klein. That's about the Manson family. And one of the things that she really gets about spawn ranch, I think absolutely right. Is that the women, what they got more than anything was that there was like a real camaraderie for them among themselves.

And they just set up shop there. They live there and they set up, you know, and this is, there's a really cool novel called the girls by Emma Klein. That's about the Manson family. And one of the things that she really gets about spawn ranch, I think absolutely right. Is that the women, what they got more than anything was that there was like a real camaraderie for them among themselves.

It was very gender segregated in a lot of ways. So they're in the kitchen, they're preparing meals. They're, going out during the day to dumpsters to try to come up with produce that's been thrown out.

It was very gender segregated in a lot of ways. So they're in the kitchen, they're preparing meals. They're, going out during the day to dumpsters to try to come up with produce that's been thrown out.

And so like there's this whole kind of girl slash women culture of Spahn Ranch that's obviously being run by Charlie for Charlie, but like has a lot of space in it for the women to kind of have their own lives.

And so like there's this whole kind of girl slash women culture of Spahn Ranch that's obviously being run by Charlie for Charlie, but like has a lot of space in it for the women to kind of have their own lives.

Again, I want to put it in the language of sexual exploitation. You know, so many of these women are vulnerable in a number of different ways and he individually grooms.

Again, I want to put it in the language of sexual exploitation. You know, so many of these women are vulnerable in a number of different ways and he individually grooms.

just to use that word that we use, you know, in that context, virtually each woman who comes to him, they, they find women when they're out partying, they find women who may, who have just made their way to the ranch one way or another. And Charlie, like laser beam, you know, for a while, we'll make that person, his object of attention. He'll figure out,

just to use that word that we use, you know, in that context, virtually each woman who comes to him, they, they find women when they're out partying, they find women who may, who have just made their way to the ranch one way or another. And Charlie, like laser beam, you know, for a while, we'll make that person, his object of attention. He'll figure out,

what their biggest vulnerability is, what their relationship with their father is. And then he'll kind of like provide this seemingly loving, gentle, paternal care for them, which then obviously almost always turns it to sexual attention. And the LSD part is definitely in there. I think that gets like a little overstated in our own kind of anti-

what their biggest vulnerability is, what their relationship with their father is. And then he'll kind of like provide this seemingly loving, gentle, paternal care for them, which then obviously almost always turns it to sexual attention. And the LSD part is definitely in there. I think that gets like a little overstated in our own kind of anti-

hallucinogen moment you know of the 80s and beyond the kind of just say no stuff that we're still living with but he like he knows how to use drugs as part of this for sure there's these kind of group you know trip experiences where he's the master of you know literally the master of ceremonies and And he arranges people. He tells people who they should have sex with and they listen, you know.

hallucinogen moment you know of the 80s and beyond the kind of just say no stuff that we're still living with but he like he knows how to use drugs as part of this for sure there's these kind of group you know trip experiences where he's the master of you know literally the master of ceremonies and And he arranges people. He tells people who they should have sex with and they listen, you know.

So he's arranging these kind of like orgiastic trip scenarios. But it's really, it's that one-on-one thing that I think he masters. Like he's got a great rap. Right. And he knows how to apply it differentially so it'll be effective.

So he's arranging these kind of like orgiastic trip scenarios. But it's really, it's that one-on-one thing that I think he masters. Like he's got a great rap. Right. And he knows how to apply it differentially so it'll be effective.

He would really lock in. I think this is the Scientology training. He had this idea of how you become your fullest person, and it was really about presence, about being there. A lot of these young women, some of them were literally directly abused by their fathers, but some of them were just victims of or people who had experienced what we call neglect.

He would really lock in. I think this is the Scientology training. He had this idea of how you become your fullest person, and it was really about presence, about being there. A lot of these young women, some of them were literally directly abused by their fathers, but some of them were just victims of or people who had experienced what we call neglect.

They just had very typically absent 1950s dads. Dad went out to work during the day, didn't really have much to do with the family. And to get this kind of attention from an older man, I think was really hypnotic for a lot of women. And so we talked about it in terms of his eyes, but I really think our focus should be on the kind of whole package is that he knew how to lock in.

They just had very typically absent 1950s dads. Dad went out to work during the day, didn't really have much to do with the family. And to get this kind of attention from an older man, I think was really hypnotic for a lot of women. And so we talked about it in terms of his eyes, but I really think our focus should be on the kind of whole package is that he knew how to lock in.

I think that's right. And I'm really glad you framed it as such, Don, because it's like we're all still like in the thrall of the prosecutor. You know, Vincent Bugliosi's Helter Skelter and the race war narrative, which I'm I'm sure we'll take a minute to talk about, but you know, Manson, his animus, his engine of his resentment is that he can't make it in the music business.

I think that's right. And I'm really glad you framed it as such, Don, because it's like we're all still like in the thrall of the prosecutor. You know, Vincent Bugliosi's Helter Skelter and the race war narrative, which I'm I'm sure we'll take a minute to talk about, but you know, Manson, his animus, his engine of his resentment is that he can't make it in the music business.

Like he, he has like a solid year at LA where like he believes his own, like he's high on his own supply. Like he believes his own story. He thinks he's going to be a star. He does not get that while he's playing Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher for certain things, they're playing him as well. So, you know, he has a formal audition and he blows it, you know, like he by his own account.

Like he, he has like a solid year at LA where like he believes his own, like he's high on his own supply. Like he believes his own story. He thinks he's going to be a star. He does not get that while he's playing Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher for certain things, they're playing him as well. So, you know, he has a formal audition and he blows it, you know, like he by his own account.

He's like he freezes up. He can't sing into a microphone. He's not a professional musician. Like he's just not. He's he's cool around a campfire, you know, and we've all seen that. Right. Like we've all seen that guy who, you know, who who takes over the campfire and sing some songs. And that's cool. But he's not. He's not at all a trained musician.

He's like he freezes up. He can't sing into a microphone. He's not a professional musician. Like he's just not. He's he's cool around a campfire, you know, and we've all seen that. Right. Like we've all seen that guy who, you know, who who takes over the campfire and sing some songs. And that's cool. But he's not. He's not at all a trained musician.

He doesn't know how to, how to play in a, you know, in a studio. And Terry Melcher at that point, like basically throws him to an associate of his who's like got anthropological interest. He's a guy who had gone out, you know, you know, recording native American, you know, tribes and, and so on. And it's like, you might like this guy.

He doesn't know how to, how to play in a, you know, in a studio. And Terry Melcher at that point, like basically throws him to an associate of his who's like got anthropological interest. He's a guy who had gone out, you know, you know, recording native American, you know, tribes and, and so on. And it's like, you might like this guy.

He's, he's kind of like, you know, it's kind of tribal, you know, and Manson cannot believe it. He cannot believe he's not getting a contract. And you know, to his, to his, I don't want to say it's to his credit, but like folks who heard him play thought that he could have been brought along. Like Neil Young very famously said, if Manson had the right band, he could have been like mid-60s Dylan.

He's, he's kind of like, you know, it's kind of tribal, you know, and Manson cannot believe it. He cannot believe he's not getting a contract. And you know, to his, to his, I don't want to say it's to his credit, but like folks who heard him play thought that he could have been brought along. Like Neil Young very famously said, if Manson had the right band, he could have been like mid-60s Dylan.

Like he could have been that kind of like wild electric sound. But he didn't. Like he was too full of himself. He thought everyone wanted to hang on every word of every song he wrote. But he couldn't. And Terry Melcher basically cuts him. I mean, it's Terry Melcher's the heart of this story. In what way?

Like he could have been that kind of like wild electric sound. But he didn't. Like he was too full of himself. He thought everyone wanted to hang on every word of every song he wrote. But he couldn't. And Terry Melcher basically cuts him. I mean, it's Terry Melcher's the heart of this story. In what way?

Well, Manson really believes, I mean, let's just put this out there because we haven't said it yet. The first set of murders will happen at 10,050 Cielo Drive, which is where Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski live. But that's where Terry Melcher had lived previously. Exactly. And so Manson knows the house. And he's got this resentment that just boils up about Melcher.

Well, Manson really believes, I mean, let's just put this out there because we haven't said it yet. The first set of murders will happen at 10,050 Cielo Drive, which is where Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski live. But that's where Terry Melcher had lived previously. Exactly. And so Manson knows the house. And he's got this resentment that just boils up about Melcher.

Like Melcher for years barely appeared in public because he was so spooked by, I mean, I think he knew, I think he knew that Manson, if Manson wasn't literally targeting him, that Manson's anger, you know, the, the kind of murderous rage that ended up in these, these two nights of murder, I think was very much out of this disappointment that Melcher didn't give him a contract.

Like Melcher for years barely appeared in public because he was so spooked by, I mean, I think he knew, I think he knew that Manson, if Manson wasn't literally targeting him, that Manson's anger, you know, the, the kind of murderous rage that ended up in these, these two nights of murder, I think was very much out of this disappointment that Melcher didn't give him a contract.

Like he really believed that Melcher was going to be his meal ticket.

Like he really believed that Melcher was going to be his meal ticket.

And I think that's right. But I want to kind of it's obviously out there while what Manson does with the Beatles music and how he reads it. But it's part of a larger wave of understanding rock and roll music and popular music more generally as having cultural weight. as having important political meaning, right?

And I think that's right. But I want to kind of it's obviously out there while what Manson does with the Beatles music and how he reads it. But it's part of a larger wave of understanding rock and roll music and popular music more generally as having cultural weight. as having important political meaning, right?

Like this obviously, it's not just the Beatles, it's obviously Dylan too, and it's all manner of musicians, right? It's some really important jazz musicians who are reaching, you know, in terms of black power. You know, music begins to be understood in the mid-60s as a social force.

Like this obviously, it's not just the Beatles, it's obviously Dylan too, and it's all manner of musicians, right? It's some really important jazz musicians who are reaching, you know, in terms of black power. You know, music begins to be understood in the mid-60s as a social force.

Exactly. Commercial, it's top of the charts. And that's a rich brew. And Manson, I mean, he's not like you and me. Like we have the wherewithal to hear music, understand that it's a kind of distinct artistic form. But it's not like, I mean, most of us who are dedicated music listeners have moments where we think,

Exactly. Commercial, it's top of the charts. And that's a rich brew. And Manson, I mean, he's not like you and me. Like we have the wherewithal to hear music, understand that it's a kind of distinct artistic form. But it's not like, I mean, most of us who are dedicated music listeners have moments where we think,

wow they're talking right to me right like they're like like right like they they know me they understand you know yeah manson had that in a path you know in a pathological way like it tipped over into him thinking it was secret messages he listened to other music too that he didn't take that like he his second favorite band was the moody blues and it's like he didn't get any secret messages you know from them like they weren't telling him you know that he should

wow they're talking right to me right like they're like like right like they they know me they understand you know yeah manson had that in a path you know in a pathological way like it tipped over into him thinking it was secret messages he listened to other music too that he didn't take that like he his second favorite band was the moody blues and it's like he didn't get any secret messages you know from them like they weren't telling him you know that he should

dress his knights in white satin or whatever, you know, like he, it was something about the Beatles that really reached him and a lot of people.

dress his knights in white satin or whatever, you know, like he, it was something about the Beatles that really reached him and a lot of people.

Absolutely. They have agency and that, you know, like there's a one or two of them I want to sort of separate out because they were literally what we would now call underage. And so not legally responsible, you know, for. Yeah. But yes, these are women who have agency and they are making decisions to join Manson in this delusional quest.

Absolutely. They have agency and that, you know, like there's a one or two of them I want to sort of separate out because they were literally what we would now call underage. And so not legally responsible, you know, for. Yeah. But yes, these are women who have agency and they are making decisions to join Manson in this delusional quest.

I want to answer really carefully the question of how much of a white supremacist Manson was. Charles Manson was clearly a racist. He was clearly someone who believed that black people were subhuman and he articulated that again and again in his life. That, as we spoke about earlier, was very much a product of his prison training.

I want to answer really carefully the question of how much of a white supremacist Manson was. Charles Manson was clearly a racist. He was clearly someone who believed that black people were subhuman and he articulated that again and again in his life. That, as we spoke about earlier, was very much a product of his prison training.

Like that was clearly part of the kind of segregated antagonistic world. I'm not excusing this in any way. I'm just trying to understand it. was he mostly motivated by this thing that Vincent Bugliosi framed at the trial as this race? I mean, that was a fairly late breaking thing in the life of the family.

Like that was clearly part of the kind of segregated antagonistic world. I'm not excusing this in any way. I'm just trying to understand it. was he mostly motivated by this thing that Vincent Bugliosi framed at the trial as this race? I mean, that was a fairly late breaking thing in the life of the family.

Manson did begin talking about it with them, but it's no, it had nowhere near the weight that the music business stuff had for the family. The family was organized for months and months and months around getting Charlie a contract. It's not like they actually made a lot of plans for living in a hole in the desert and waiting out the race war and then taking, you know,

Manson did begin talking about it with them, but it's no, it had nowhere near the weight that the music business stuff had for the family. The family was organized for months and months and months around getting Charlie a contract. It's not like they actually made a lot of plans for living in a hole in the desert and waiting out the race war and then taking, you know,

I mean, that was when he was really starting to fall apart. And it was very much a symptom of his, you know, what psychologists would call decompensation. You know, like he was losing his shit. And the direction it took, not surprisingly in American culture, given that we're a culture kind of rooted in systemic racism, is that he kind of grabbed that narrative and ran with it.

I mean, that was when he was really starting to fall apart. And it was very much a symptom of his, you know, what psychologists would call decompensation. You know, like he was losing his shit. And the direction it took, not surprisingly in American culture, given that we're a culture kind of rooted in systemic racism, is that he kind of grabbed that narrative and ran with it.

It's almost impossible to do a head count on the cult because people are coming and going. There are people who are not all the time with them, like Bobby Beausoleil and folks who are associates of the family. But there's a core of a couple dozen people who are always at the ranch.

It's almost impossible to do a head count on the cult because people are coming and going. There are people who are not all the time with them, like Bobby Beausoleil and folks who are associates of the family. But there's a core of a couple dozen people who are always at the ranch.

There's clearly an inner circle, too. And those are the folks who end up being responsible for the two nights of mayhem, you know, in August of 69. And there's clearly like he has his lieutenants, you know, like Tex Watson is clearly the second in command, you know, man. And Lynette Fromm.

There's clearly an inner circle, too. And those are the folks who end up being responsible for the two nights of mayhem, you know, in August of 69. And there's clearly like he has his lieutenants, you know, like Tex Watson is clearly the second in command, you know, man. And Lynette Fromm.

And a few of the other women are clearly like the ones running the ranch, you know, the ones who are in charge of the daily operations. But then there's all these other folks, you know, they you if you read deep enough in the literature, you come upon these names and you're like, who's that again?

And a few of the other women are clearly like the ones running the ranch, you know, the ones who are in charge of the daily operations. But then there's all these other folks, you know, they you if you read deep enough in the literature, you come upon these names and you're like, who's that again?

You know, like like somebody else just showed up a month or so before the murders and lived there for a while. People come and go. Charlie didn't like to let people go like they would chase people down if they tried to leave. Right. Because he needed that like intactness.

You know, like like somebody else just showed up a month or so before the murders and lived there for a while. People come and go. Charlie didn't like to let people go like they would chase people down if they tried to leave. Right. Because he needed that like intactness.

First night, they head out to Benedict Canyon, which again, I don't know how familiar your listeners will be with geography of LA, but Benedict Canyon is one of these beautiful areas, a little bit north of where the cultural action is, the Sunset Strip. It's not a long drive, but it's a whole other world.

First night, they head out to Benedict Canyon, which again, I don't know how familiar your listeners will be with geography of LA, but Benedict Canyon is one of these beautiful areas, a little bit north of where the cultural action is, the Sunset Strip. It's not a long drive, but it's a whole other world.

The question of where Manson's born has been debated for quite a while. The more interesting question is how quickly and at what a young age he entered the prison system. By the age of 12, he was already being charged with fairly major crimes. And one of the things I like to kind of frame when we talk about the Manson family is that he is what we call these days an incarcerated personality.

The question of where Manson's born has been debated for quite a while. The more interesting question is how quickly and at what a young age he entered the prison system. By the age of 12, he was already being charged with fairly major crimes. And one of the things I like to kind of frame when we talk about the Manson family is that he is what we call these days an incarcerated personality.

Again, if your listeners are not on the West Coast, what LA geography looks like is always a mystery to those of us from the East Coast or elsewhere. So it's this really remote feeling part of LA, right?

Again, if your listeners are not on the West Coast, what LA geography looks like is always a mystery to those of us from the East Coast or elsewhere. So it's this really remote feeling part of LA, right?

Right. It's beautiful. It's remote. So they make it to this house, which is the house of... The actor Sharon Tate and her husband, the film director Roman Polanski, who have a few houseguests and the few members of the Manson family make their way in, are clearly intent on just wreaking havoc. It's not that they're just there to kill people. They are there clearly with some instructions.

Right. It's beautiful. It's remote. So they make it to this house, which is the house of... The actor Sharon Tate and her husband, the film director Roman Polanski, who have a few houseguests and the few members of the Manson family make their way in, are clearly intent on just wreaking havoc. It's not that they're just there to kill people. They are there clearly with some instructions.

The line that always gets quoted is that Charlie tells one of the women of the family to do something witchy. And so there's clearly this aspect to the first night of crime, especially, that's about leaving evidence that will freak out observers, that will just undo people.

The line that always gets quoted is that Charlie tells one of the women of the family to do something witchy. And so there's clearly this aspect to the first night of crime, especially, that's about leaving evidence that will freak out observers, that will just undo people.

Yeah. So, you know, the members of the family come in, you know, and folks love to quote, you know, the the lines that particularly Tex Watson said, which is always I'm always a little suspicious of because the only person people who could have reported that are members of the family themselves because everyone else dies.

Yeah. So, you know, the members of the family come in, you know, and folks love to quote, you know, the the lines that particularly Tex Watson said, which is always I'm always a little suspicious of because the only person people who could have reported that are members of the family themselves because everyone else dies.

And so this is clearly part of a mythology they want to promote that, you know. they walk in, you know, Sharon Tate says, what, who are you? What are you doing here? And, you know, Texas, I'm the devil. I'm here to do the devil's work, you know? And it's like, it's like, you didn't need to wait for Quentin Tarantino all those years later.

And so this is clearly part of a mythology they want to promote that, you know. they walk in, you know, Sharon Tate says, what, who are you? What are you doing here? And, you know, Texas, I'm the devil. I'm here to do the devil's work, you know? And it's like, it's like, you didn't need to wait for Quentin Tarantino all those years later.

It was like already a film script, you know, how much Charlie scripted it. We don't know, but like, there's clearly this effort to make a performance and it's this horrifying, tragic, terrible performance. Like they kill this ready to deliver a baby woman. And then her, Her compatriots, the young guy lived back in the carriage house, had a friend who was coming to visit. They kill in the driveway.

It was like already a film script, you know, how much Charlie scripted it. We don't know, but like, there's clearly this effort to make a performance and it's this horrifying, tragic, terrible performance. Like they kill this ready to deliver a baby woman. And then her, Her compatriots, the young guy lived back in the carriage house, had a friend who was coming to visit. They kill in the driveway.

You also hang them from the ceiling. I mean, it's really bizarre. No, it's hard. I mean, this is horror movie stuff. One of the things I thought about a lot when I was doing the research is how much the murders actually... influenced actual horror movies of the 1970s. Yeah. You know, home invasion movies and cutting out babies.

You also hang them from the ceiling. I mean, it's really bizarre. No, it's hard. I mean, this is horror movie stuff. One of the things I thought about a lot when I was doing the research is how much the murders actually... influenced actual horror movies of the 1970s. Yeah. You know, home invasion movies and cutting out babies.

You know, I mean, you know, it's just they're writing a script and it's a horrifying script and they do this terrible thing. They kill all these people and head back to the ranch.

You know, I mean, you know, it's just they're writing a script and it's a horrifying script and they do this terrible thing. They kill all these people and head back to the ranch.

He always said that the jailhouse was my father, and that was like a real rhetorical flourish. But I think it's actually useful for us to think about rather than think about him in traditional sense of where did he grow up? Who was his mother? What was her occupation? And folks love to talk about that. Maybe she was a sex worker. Maybe he was the product of one of her work assignations.

He always said that the jailhouse was my father, and that was like a real rhetorical flourish. But I think it's actually useful for us to think about rather than think about him in traditional sense of where did he grow up? Who was his mother? What was her occupation? And folks love to talk about that. Maybe she was a sex worker. Maybe he was the product of one of her work assignations.

I mean, the race war, it's wild that Bugliosi sold, you know, this idea of, you know, that this marginal hippie cult was going to start a race war because two things. First of all, the United States is actively at war in Vietnam, you know, war against Asian people. Like you can call that a race war.

I mean, the race war, it's wild that Bugliosi sold, you know, this idea of, you know, that this marginal hippie cult was going to start a race war because two things. First of all, the United States is actively at war in Vietnam, you know, war against Asian people. Like you can call that a race war.

And a few years earlier in LA, there had been a major riot or rebellion, as some people want to call it in Watts, when police officers killed a black motorist who had not done anything wrong. And there's a dispute, right? So like, if you want to talk about racial violence in the United States, in LA, committed by the United States or in LA, there's plenty of race war going on.

And a few years earlier in LA, there had been a major riot or rebellion, as some people want to call it in Watts, when police officers killed a black motorist who had not done anything wrong. And there's a dispute, right? So like, if you want to talk about racial violence in the United States, in LA, committed by the United States or in LA, there's plenty of race war going on.

It's not Charlie Manson doing it. Sure. Right. Or even if it was, he's not going to affect that kind of change. That's it. That's even better. Like he, maybe he had that motivation. He's not gonna be able to do anything about it. Sure.

It's not Charlie Manson doing it. Sure. Right. Or even if it was, he's not going to affect that kind of change. That's it. That's even better. Like he, maybe he had that motivation. He's not gonna be able to do anything about it. Sure.

It's this very arcane reality that existed in Southern California at the time is that there's the LAPD, but then there's the county sheriff. And they're doing kind of parallel investigations but not talking to each other. And at some point, somebody kind of realizes that they're looking at the same guy. And they realize that he's also connected to the Tate-LaBianca murders.

It's this very arcane reality that existed in Southern California at the time is that there's the LAPD, but then there's the county sheriff. And they're doing kind of parallel investigations but not talking to each other. And at some point, somebody kind of realizes that they're looking at the same guy. And they realize that he's also connected to the Tate-LaBianca murders.

There's a wallet that got left in a gas station toilet. The details are all really arcane. And somebody finally rides in and puts it together. And so by December— They have this idea that Charlie's the one who's responsible for the whole deal.

There's a wallet that got left in a gas station toilet. The details are all really arcane. And somebody finally rides in and puts it together. And so by December— They have this idea that Charlie's the one who's responsible for the whole deal.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question, you know, and, and it, it kind of bedevils the prosecution. Cause it's like, what do you even charge him with? You know, like remote control murder is not like a crime. So it's like conspiracy stuff that he, you know, he ultimately gets jacked up on. And, and it's, I mean, it's a great question. He's not a murderer. I mean, it's,

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question, you know, and, and it, it kind of bedevils the prosecution. Cause it's like, what do you even charge him with? You know, like remote control murder is not like a crime. So it's like conspiracy stuff that he, you know, he ultimately gets jacked up on. And, and it's, I mean, it's a great question. He's not a murderer. I mean, it's,

I mean, Charlie, there's like there's plenty of evidence that he was physically abusive to women in the family, but he's not he's not a shoot him up. You know, there's an earlier murder of Gary Hinman a few weeks before the tape murders that we jumped over. Who's this grad student drug dealer who the family was involved with? And like Charlie showed up at that house and seemed to have.

I mean, Charlie, there's like there's plenty of evidence that he was physically abusive to women in the family, but he's not he's not a shoot him up. You know, there's an earlier murder of Gary Hinman a few weeks before the tape murders that we jumped over. Who's this grad student drug dealer who the family was involved with? And like Charlie showed up at that house and seemed to have.

And I think what we really need to focus on with Madsen is that he's raised in jail. He comes of age in prison in the Midwest. and then later on out on the West Coast. And that's where I really like to kind of press the gas, if that makes sense, to sort of say the details of his own early biography are sad and dark, but they don't really tell us that much about who he ended up being.

And I think what we really need to focus on with Madsen is that he's raised in jail. He comes of age in prison in the Midwest. and then later on out on the West Coast. And that's where I really like to kind of press the gas, if that makes sense, to sort of say the details of his own early biography are sad and dark, but they don't really tell us that much about who he ended up being.

done some of the actual violence. But Charlie's a director. I mean, Charlie's a, you know, he's not a get his hands messy kind of guy, right? He's a, you know, write the script and tell people what their roles are in the script. And that's very much what happened. He's a manipulator. He's a manipulator, yeah.

done some of the actual violence. But Charlie's a director. I mean, Charlie's a, you know, he's not a get his hands messy kind of guy, right? He's a, you know, write the script and tell people what their roles are in the script. And that's very much what happened. He's a manipulator. He's a manipulator, yeah.

Big guy.

Big guy.

And this one is even harder to get a beat on because it's not it doesn't fit exactly, you know, in the narrative, you know, of Charlie's resentment about the music business or, you know, about kind of street culture versus free culture. Like they end up at the house.

And this one is even harder to get a beat on because it's not it doesn't fit exactly, you know, in the narrative, you know, of Charlie's resentment about the music business or, you know, about kind of street culture versus free culture. Like they end up at the house.

Of Rosemary and Lino LaBianca, who are just these middle class, you know, I mean, they're pretty well off, but it's still to my mind. And if you if you've got a different take, I'd love to hear it. Like, it's still not exactly clear how they ended up there randomly, as far as I know. Right. It seems pretty randomly. Maybe they thought somebody else lived there.

Of Rosemary and Lino LaBianca, who are just these middle class, you know, I mean, they're pretty well off, but it's still to my mind. And if you if you've got a different take, I'd love to hear it. Like, it's still not exactly clear how they ended up there randomly, as far as I know. Right. It seems pretty randomly. Maybe they thought somebody else lived there.

There's all kinds of conflicting testimony about this, but, but be that as it may, they end up, you know, in this home in a much different kind of neighborhood, also a nice, nice neighborhood, but not that kind of hill fancy. These are like solidly up the middle.

There's all kinds of conflicting testimony about this, but, but be that as it may, they end up, you know, in this home in a much different kind of neighborhood, also a nice, nice neighborhood, but not that kind of hill fancy. These are like solidly up the middle.

That story begins when he's about 12 and his prison life begins.

That story begins when he's about 12 and his prison life begins.

I love the way you set that up because it's like, these are marginal people. Yeah. These are not like, I mean, we're so used to like heist movies and like George Clooney in a nice suit. We have all these kind of mythologized image of the bad guys, you know, whether it's outlaws from old Western movies or, you know, gangsters from our more recent stuff.

I love the way you set that up because it's like, these are marginal people. Yeah. These are not like, I mean, we're so used to like heist movies and like George Clooney in a nice suit. We have all these kind of mythologized image of the bad guys, you know, whether it's outlaws from old Western movies or, you know, gangsters from our more recent stuff.

But the Manson family, like they're weirdos and losers. And yes, you know what I mean? They're in death. That like, it's, it's not a nice place to be. Right. And they're busted out there and they're, they're like fishing about like, like they're not hard to find there. Nobody else is living at it. They're not sophisticated criminals is basically not sophisticated criminals. Yeah, that's it.

But the Manson family, like they're weirdos and losers. And yes, you know what I mean? They're in death. That like, it's, it's not a nice place to be. Right. And they're busted out there and they're, they're like fishing about like, like they're not hard to find there. Nobody else is living at it. They're not sophisticated criminals is basically not sophisticated criminals. Yeah, that's it.

That's it. And they're easy to bust and they're easy to prosecute because they're, you know, messed up on drugs among other things, but they're not career criminals. They're not, you know, um, and, and they're easily found and, and they're easily brought to trial and they're easily convicted.

That's it. And they're easy to bust and they're easy to prosecute because they're, you know, messed up on drugs among other things, but they're not career criminals. They're not, you know, um, and, and they're easily found and, and they're easily brought to trial and they're easily convicted.

That's great. And one of the reasons I, you know, I called my book creepy crawling and we haven't talked about this yet is that the crime that they committed most often was what they called creepy crawling.

That's great. And one of the reasons I, you know, I called my book creepy crawling and we haven't talked about this yet is that the crime that they committed most often was what they called creepy crawling.

That's right. I mean, there was some talk, and I don't know if this has ever been completely nailed down, that he was in Boys Town for a while, kind of classic orphan or quasi-orphan scenario. So yeah, he's in the Midwest and then makes his way, I think, after his grand theft auto joyride out to California and ends up forging a treasury check and ending up in prison for quite a while.

That's right. I mean, there was some talk, and I don't know if this has ever been completely nailed down, that he was in Boys Town for a while, kind of classic orphan or quasi-orphan scenario. So yeah, he's in the Midwest and then makes his way, I think, after his grand theft auto joyride out to California and ends up forging a treasury check and ending up in prison for quite a while.

You know, the family would go into a house of somebody that they could get at near Chatsworth and they'd literally go into, while the family was sleeping, they'd go in the house and rearrange the furniture. And this is just like psychological warfare. Like the family would wake up and know someone had been in the house, but not be able to figure out why or what they wanted, right?

You know, the family would go into a house of somebody that they could get at near Chatsworth and they'd literally go into, while the family was sleeping, they'd go in the house and rearrange the furniture. And this is just like psychological warfare. Like the family would wake up and know someone had been in the house, but not be able to figure out why or what they wanted, right?

And that to me became like the guiding metaphor for what the Manson family has done to us. Like we can't get them, like they're in our heads. Like they're rearranging our furniture. Like we can't like- Wow, she looks like just a normal teenage girl. She did what? Oh, interesting. And that's the metaphor for me that we can't get done with.

And that to me became like the guiding metaphor for what the Manson family has done to us. Like we can't get them, like they're in our heads. Like they're rearranging our furniture. Like we can't like- Wow, she looks like just a normal teenage girl. She did what? Oh, interesting. And that's the metaphor for me that we can't get done with.

We're still trying to figure out how this happened and what happened to families that our daughters were so vulnerable to this. That's what they were so good at, just getting in our houses, getting in our minds.

We're still trying to figure out how this happened and what happened to families that our daughters were so vulnerable to this. That's what they were so good at, just getting in our houses, getting in our minds.

Yeah, absolutely. And that was really what got me started in during the research was this realization that like every, it felt like every couple months there would be, I'd hear a song or I'd see a new documentary or there'd be a new bit of visual culture. There was this great series of photographs of Barker Ranch that some European photographer did, a real art project.

Yeah, absolutely. And that was really what got me started in during the research was this realization that like every, it felt like every couple months there would be, I'd hear a song or I'd see a new documentary or there'd be a new bit of visual culture. There was this great series of photographs of Barker Ranch that some European photographer did, a real art project.

And I was like, how come we can't leave this guy alone already? Even after Even after he died. And I started thinking there was this great Rolling Stone cover in the 70s about Jim Morrison, another shamanic LA figure. And it was years after Morrison had passed. And the headline, if I'm remembering right, in Rolling Stone said, he's hot, he's sexy, he's dead.

And I was like, how come we can't leave this guy alone already? Even after Even after he died. And I started thinking there was this great Rolling Stone cover in the 70s about Jim Morrison, another shamanic LA figure. And it was years after Morrison had passed. And the headline, if I'm remembering right, in Rolling Stone said, he's hot, he's sexy, he's dead.

And I thought about that with Manson because I was like, no matter how long he was in prison and then after he died, we're still trying to figure out what he did. Like the murders we know, the true crime piece we're done with. But the cultural part, I mean, he... ended up feeding so many different strains of popular culture.

And I thought about that with Manson because I was like, no matter how long he was in prison and then after he died, we're still trying to figure out what he did. Like the murders we know, the true crime piece we're done with. But the cultural part, I mean, he... ended up feeding so many different strains of popular culture.

Like LA, you can't have LA punk in the late 70s and early 80s without Manson. He's all over the musical and visual culture of that moment. Hip hop culture, beginning in the late 80s into the 90s, his name gets, he just becomes like the emblem of kind of

Like LA, you can't have LA punk in the late 70s and early 80s without Manson. He's all over the musical and visual culture of that moment. Hip hop culture, beginning in the late 80s into the 90s, his name gets, he just becomes like the emblem of kind of

uncontrollable horror I mentioned before and I'll say again the horror movies of the 1970s all these home invasion movies like that becomes a subgenre in horror that I think is very much inspired by the Manson the two nights of Manson murder of like you can be home you think you're safe and then all of a sudden You got hours of, you know, of horror ending in death in front of you.

uncontrollable horror I mentioned before and I'll say again the horror movies of the 1970s all these home invasion movies like that becomes a subgenre in horror that I think is very much inspired by the Manson the two nights of Manson murder of like you can be home you think you're safe and then all of a sudden You got hours of, you know, of horror ending in death in front of you.

So like again and again, it was like no surprise to me when it was the opposite of a surprise when Quentin Tarantino, who is just kind of, if nothing else, just like he keeps wanting to make movies about movies, right? Yeah. And he took this most film worthy crime and turned it.

So like again and again, it was like no surprise to me when it was the opposite of a surprise when Quentin Tarantino, who is just kind of, if nothing else, just like he keeps wanting to make movies about movies, right? Yeah. And he took this most film worthy crime and turned it.

I mean, I hated the movie, but he turned it into this, you know, even more sensationalistic, you know, I don't want to spoil it for anybody who hadn't seen it, but like he blew it up even more than it already was. Sure. And so that was one of the things, my research, like I couldn't do justice. Like I, at some point I was like, I need to have like a,

I mean, I hated the movie, but he turned it into this, you know, even more sensationalistic, you know, I don't want to spoil it for anybody who hadn't seen it, but like he blew it up even more than it already was. Sure. And so that was one of the things, my research, like I couldn't do justice. Like I, at some point I was like, I need to have like a,

online searchable index you know like i need somebody with those skills to index every moment that he's mentioned in popular music in film culture in other visual culture sculpture paintings just endless productions

online searchable index you know like i need somebody with those skills to index every moment that he's mentioned in popular music in film culture in other visual culture sculpture paintings just endless productions

in california and that's where the manson that we are familiar with really sort of like comes of age comes into being he's in fairly intense penitentiary you know scene in in the 50s and by his own account and this has been you know well confirmed like that's where he starts meeting like the real bad guys who shape him in a number of different ways including quite crucially this guy alvin karpis creepy karpis uh is his nickname who was in jail because he was a member

in california and that's where the manson that we are familiar with really sort of like comes of age comes into being he's in fairly intense penitentiary you know scene in in the 50s and by his own account and this has been you know well confirmed like that's where he starts meeting like the real bad guys who shape him in a number of different ways including quite crucially this guy alvin karpis creepy karpis uh is his nickname who was in jail because he was a member

And the paranoia it causes. It's really hard not to see this as the moment that Hollywood switches from expansive, open-ended drug culture, weed and hashish and LSD to the cocaine intensity of the 70s, like, leave me alone, I'm alone, do it, you know?

And the paranoia it causes. It's really hard not to see this as the moment that Hollywood switches from expansive, open-ended drug culture, weed and hashish and LSD to the cocaine intensity of the 70s, like, leave me alone, I'm alone, do it, you know?

Absolutely. If I can say one more thing on that, I've always really resisted. It gets quoted again and again. Joan Didion wrote this essay where she says, you know, we knew the 60s ended that night. And I'm like, well, it was August of 69. It was going to end. The 60s were going to end anyway. Three months. Yeah. Right. Like and then Manson gets arrested in December. So it's this very neat.

Absolutely. If I can say one more thing on that, I've always really resisted. It gets quoted again and again. Joan Didion wrote this essay where she says, you know, we knew the 60s ended that night. And I'm like, well, it was August of 69. It was going to end. The 60s were going to end anyway. Three months. Yeah. Right. Like and then Manson gets arrested in December. So it's this very neat.

i think you've been hinting at this and i just want to underline it it's like a punctuation that like those experiments the fun the the the kind of various communities integrating with each other like this is the punctuation that says yeah that that stuff's over right right now now we're going to reorganize in a much more hierarchical kind of way exactly it's no coincidence that you know a few years later you have

i think you've been hinting at this and i just want to underline it it's like a punctuation that like those experiments the fun the the the kind of various communities integrating with each other like this is the punctuation that says yeah that that stuff's over right right now now we're going to reorganize in a much more hierarchical kind of way exactly it's no coincidence that you know a few years later you have

There you go.

There you go.

It's almost, it moves with like the cadence of mythology. He was a member of Ma Barker's gang, you know, and also a guitar player. He taught Manson to play guitar and he also seemed to have taught him a bunch of other things as well. Right. About how to be a more successful criminal.

It's almost, it moves with like the cadence of mythology. He was a member of Ma Barker's gang, you know, and also a guitar player. He taught Manson to play guitar and he also seemed to have taught him a bunch of other things as well. Right. About how to be a more successful criminal.

I mean, Manson always says his other big influence in the fifties besides prison was Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. Right. And that's where it all sort of seems to come together. You know, that like he's in jail and he, he learns how to be a player. He learns how to control people. He kind of develops his individual talent and charisma.

I mean, Manson always says his other big influence in the fifties besides prison was Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. Right. And that's where it all sort of seems to come together. You know, that like he's in jail and he, he learns how to be a player. He learns how to control people. He kind of develops his individual talent and charisma.

You know, many years later, Ed Sanders would refer to him as the first performance murderer ever. You know, that like he was always very aware of theatricality, you know, and putting on a good show. And he learns that, I think, in jail in the 50s.

You know, many years later, Ed Sanders would refer to him as the first performance murderer ever. You know, that like he was always very aware of theatricality, you know, and putting on a good show. And he learns that, I think, in jail in the 50s.

Right, absolutely. He's, I mean, he's a little bit hard to talk about because it plays into some kind of like almost like bullying language, but like he's a little guy. Yeah. He's not physically prepossessing. You know, he, I think figures out how to make it in jail through his wiles and through his personality and through his ability to kind of figure out he's a good reader.

Right, absolutely. He's, I mean, he's a little bit hard to talk about because it plays into some kind of like almost like bullying language, but like he's a little guy. Yeah. He's not physically prepossessing. You know, he, I think figures out how to make it in jail through his wiles and through his personality and through his ability to kind of figure out he's a good reader.

That's the main thing. Like he learns how to read people. Like there's the, some people argue that's the Scientology part two. He learned Scientology and in prison and he's kind of figures out how to read personalities and what people need and how to ingratiate himself. Yeah.

That's the main thing. Like he learns how to read people. Like there's the, some people argue that's the Scientology part two. He learned Scientology and in prison and he's kind of figures out how to read personalities and what people need and how to ingratiate himself. Yeah.

So he's like a, like I want to, if it's okay, put him in the context, like great American tradition of con men, you know, confidence men. He knows how to run the game. Right. He might not be the biggest guy, the strongest guy, the best looking guy, but like he knows how to read people. He knows how to flatter them.

So he's like a, like I want to, if it's okay, put him in the context, like great American tradition of con men, you know, confidence men. He knows how to run the game. Right. He might not be the biggest guy, the strongest guy, the best looking guy, but like he knows how to read people. He knows how to flatter them.

And that, that's like, that's like an amazing moment. Cause he'll always say, I'm not a sixties guy. I'm a fifties guy. You know, like he's like, I'm a, I'm a Bing Crosby guy, you know, like that, like that's like, that's who he grows up listening to thinking about. And then he comes out of prison and it's the summer of love in San Francisco.

And that, that's like, that's like an amazing moment. Cause he'll always say, I'm not a sixties guy. I'm a fifties guy. You know, like he's like, I'm a, I'm a Bing Crosby guy, you know, like that, like that's like, that's who he grows up listening to thinking about. And then he comes out of prison and it's the summer of love in San Francisco.

Yeah. But let's remind you listeners. And you said that you, you already mentioned his birth date. He's not hippie age, right? He's like in his early mid thirties, right? So he comes out and he's kind of scoping the scene clearly as an outsider, just in terms of, we picture those, you know, all the documentaries we've seen of, you know, Summer of Love, like these are young folks.

Yeah. But let's remind you listeners. And you said that you, you already mentioned his birth date. He's not hippie age, right? He's like in his early mid thirties, right? So he comes out and he's kind of scoping the scene clearly as an outsider, just in terms of, we picture those, you know, all the documentaries we've seen of, you know, Summer of Love, like these are young folks.

And he comes out and he's a wolf. He gets the scene. He quickly ascertains that there's a lot of vulnerable young people, right, who have made their way. And this is something I'm particularly interested in that like, not immediately, but he pretty quickly starts realizing that a lot of the young folks in the Bay Area, California in general, are runaways.

And he comes out and he's a wolf. He gets the scene. He quickly ascertains that there's a lot of vulnerable young people, right, who have made their way. And this is something I'm particularly interested in that like, not immediately, but he pretty quickly starts realizing that a lot of the young folks in the Bay Area, California in general, are runaways.

either literally or quasi-runaways, you know, left families that were uncomfortable for them at best or literally abusive at worst as, you know, when he meets Lynette Fromm a little bit later. But he begins this process. It's kind of an amazing moment. He gets to the Bay Area and he's like, it's all opportunity for him, right? He's this, you know, charismatic, talented.

either literally or quasi-runaways, you know, left families that were uncomfortable for them at best or literally abusive at worst as, you know, when he meets Lynette Fromm a little bit later. But he begins this process. It's kind of an amazing moment. He gets to the Bay Area and he's like, it's all opportunity for him, right? He's this, you know, charismatic, talented.

It's hard to say this in respect of that guy who ended up responsible for these murders, but he's He's sensitive. He's like a good listener. And he finds these young women who need a good listener. And he's an older guy, and he's got that appeal on that level. And so he starts meeting people. First, he meets this Berkeley librarian, connects up with her. Then he meets a few other women.

It's hard to say this in respect of that guy who ended up responsible for these murders, but he's He's sensitive. He's like a good listener. And he finds these young women who need a good listener. And he's an older guy, and he's got that appeal on that level. And so he starts meeting people. First, he meets this Berkeley librarian, connects up with her. Then he meets a few other women.

And before long, they're established in the Bay Area. They get studied by the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic. Some doctors there who see them as a fascinating example of plural marriage, you know, essentially. And they publish an article. Wow. This is before any of the controversy or the notoriety. They just like to see Manson as kind of one more iteration of new social arrangements.

And before long, they're established in the Bay Area. They get studied by the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic. Some doctors there who see them as a fascinating example of plural marriage, you know, essentially. And they publish an article. Wow. This is before any of the controversy or the notoriety. They just like to see Manson as kind of one more iteration of new social arrangements.

Again, I always try to be careful about what language I use in talking about him because I don't want to over-credit him or sound like I'm supporting or approving of what he did. He's incredibly savvy. What you just said, Donna, is so right. He is part of this cultural moment of recognizing that there's this new youth culture. Some people are studying it. Some people are trying to sell stuff.

Again, I always try to be careful about what language I use in talking about him because I don't want to over-credit him or sound like I'm supporting or approving of what he did. He's incredibly savvy. What you just said, Donna, is so right. He is part of this cultural moment of recognizing that there's this new youth culture. Some people are studying it. Some people are trying to sell stuff.

you know to them some people are trying to prosecute them and crack down on them but it's this like intense like who are these young people what are they like why are they wearing clothes like this why do they dance like that why is their music sound like this what are these drugs they're you know and he steps in as like what i want to call like a cultural entrepreneur um he he sees this and he sees this is just like a rich vein of opportunity and he figures it out like in a minute

you know to them some people are trying to prosecute them and crack down on them but it's this like intense like who are these young people what are they like why are they wearing clothes like this why do they dance like that why is their music sound like this what are these drugs they're you know and he steps in as like what i want to call like a cultural entrepreneur um he he sees this and he sees this is just like a rich vein of opportunity and he figures it out like in a minute

It's like a small handful at this point.

It's like a small handful at this point.

Yeah, that's amazing. And that's where the story gets, I mean, obviously we wouldn't be talking about him if they didn't end up in LA and everything that ensues. And I mean, that's part of, you know, I called him before a cultural entrepreneur, like he begins to really fancy himself a musician and he begins to imagine himself as a musician with

Yeah, that's amazing. And that's where the story gets, I mean, obviously we wouldn't be talking about him if they didn't end up in LA and everything that ensues. And I mean, that's part of, you know, I called him before a cultural entrepreneur, like he begins to really fancy himself a musician and he begins to imagine himself as a musician with

real potential and so la is where it's happening i mean this is la's moment it's i mean when i started researching this stuff i was like earlier in my career did a a book about when new york jews first musicians first you know gershwin and that whole crew in the 1920s first moved out to hollywood because that's where the action was going to be for musicians you know making making music for movies and from that moment on like la slowly becomes the heart of the american music business and it's off the hook in 67 68

real potential and so la is where it's happening i mean this is la's moment it's i mean when i started researching this stuff i was like earlier in my career did a a book about when new york jews first musicians first you know gershwin and that whole crew in the 1920s first moved out to hollywood because that's where the action was going to be for musicians you know making making music for movies and from that moment on like la slowly becomes the heart of the american music business and it's off the hook in 67 68

The kind of Sunset Strip action, the clubs that just kind of in the street hanging out, you know, informal rituals of hanging out. And then the record companies who are looking for, you know, constantly looking for new young talent. So it's this amazing moment.

The kind of Sunset Strip action, the clubs that just kind of in the street hanging out, you know, informal rituals of hanging out. And then the record companies who are looking for, you know, constantly looking for new young talent. So it's this amazing moment.

It is. I mean, it's sometime in 68, like, and people argue about exactly when. It seems like a couple of the women of the family get picked up hitchhiking by Dennis Wilson. Like, it's this totally, you know, just... lucky accident.

It is. I mean, it's sometime in 68, like, and people argue about exactly when. It seems like a couple of the women of the family get picked up hitchhiking by Dennis Wilson. Like, it's this totally, you know, just... lucky accident.

But it's like the way the story gets told, it's like they get picked up hitchhiking and then next they're basically living in his house, the whole family, you know, like they're crashing at Dennis Wilson's Pacific Palisades house. And Dennis Wilson's got this whole crew of guys who begin noticing this.

But it's like the way the story gets told, it's like they get picked up hitchhiking and then next they're basically living in his house, the whole family, you know, like they're crashing at Dennis Wilson's Pacific Palisades house. And Dennis Wilson's got this whole crew of guys who begin noticing this.

It's incredibly, I mean, I just want to make sure that we don't laugh it up too much because like it's incredibly exploitive scenario. Like in the research I did, I really focused on this category that we've come to call groupies.

It's incredibly, I mean, I just want to make sure that we don't laugh it up too much because like it's incredibly exploitive scenario. Like in the research I did, I really focused on this category that we've come to call groupies.

Which is, you know, it's a really complicated category, right? Yes. Right? It can mean just fan, but like baked into it in this moment in the late 60s is it's young women. It's vulnerable young women. It's young women who are being kind of sexually exploited by much older men who are being promised things that, you know, maybe they're going to get, maybe they're not going to get.

Which is, you know, it's a really complicated category, right? Yes. Right? It can mean just fan, but like baked into it in this moment in the late 60s is it's young women. It's vulnerable young women. It's young women who are being kind of sexually exploited by much older men who are being promised things that, you know, maybe they're going to get, maybe they're not going to get.

But there are power differentials. Right. And the Manson women become something like that role for Dennis Wilson and for Terry Melcher, who's this incredibly important music producer, produces first Paul Revere, the Raiders, the birds. Like he's right at the heart of it. He's Doris Day's son. He's literally the son of like the image of white bread in American culture.

And that's something that like they all I mean, one of the fascinating things when I start doing the research for the book is like, how little any of those people wanted to talk about, you know, I reached out to a few of them just, you know, want to do some of the people connected to the Beach Boys, and they were nobody wanted to touch it.

Um, to the level that like, even when I wanted to quote Neil Young's song, that's, you know, loosely based on the, the Manson case, his people were just like, no, you can't like, usually this is like in the weeds a little bit, but like, usually when you ask to quote lyrics, the company that owns it says, sure. Send us 5,000 bucks like that. It's a money making thing.

Neil Young's people all these years later were like, he does not want to be associated with this.

Exactly. Oh, my God. And they were all they were hanging out together. They were dancing together, you know, in the Sunset Strip clubs. And it's not just music people. It's film people, too. Right. Because this is the moment of the new Hollywood. So Dennis Hopper is tied up with these, you know, with these people. Right.

Like these names who are like crucial people in American culture are dancing with these marginal freaks. Yeah. Yeah.

They do. And Dennis Wilson, I mean, he's in his own way a vulnerable character. He's not the creative engine of the group. He's an important musician, but- If there was a real Beach Boy, it was Dennis Wilson. Yeah, exactly. He's the only one who surfs of the Beach Boys. And he not only takes up with the Manson women, he- gets kind of convinced by Charlie's rap.

And he like, he very famously gives an interview to a British music magazine in, in 68 saying like, Oh my, you know, we, you know, me and the, me and my brothers have a record company at one of our first acts is going to be this guy, you know, Charlie Manson, he's a wizard.

He's like a guru, you know, and like, he's talking this up in public, you know, like this very kind of dark, weird scenario he's presenting as like, this guy's great. He's a great musician. We're going to record him. And he gives Manson personally this sense of legitimacy that he belongs in this scene and that he's a part of it.

And he never gets really that what these guys want from him are women in drugs. He's like a pimp in a few different ways. Exactly.

And it's so shady. I mean, this isn't just LA. This is like, the sites that matter are like Venice Beach, real honky tonk, really marginal folks, what we would now call street people, and just kind of folks who are not mainstream culture. And all of a sudden, they find themselves in Dennis Wilson's mansion, like up on the hill, And it's a wild moment of cultural mixing.

And spawn ranch, just to like, to try to draw a picture for listeners. Like I'm always, whenever I was out on research trips in LA, I was always like, I, I caught to spawn ranch or where it was in Chatsworth. And for East coast people, this is shocking. Cause it's like, this is still LA. Like, cause it's, it just feels like this kind of hard scrabble, desert-y, you know?

So yeah, the Mansons basically take over spawn ranch, which had been from the thirties on an actual movie ranch.

Yes.

They just went out there to ride horses. At that point, the ranch was basically like a tourist site where you could get... They were still filming some TV commercials. And also, I think Bobby Beausoleil, who ends up associated with the family, actually filmed a porn Western out there. It was on its last commercial legs, but you could go out there and ride horses.

And then they kind of ingratiate themselves with... Very elderly George Spahn, who likes the young women too, one in particular, Lynette. Sure. You know, Lynette Fromm becomes like quite literally his handler, and they just move in there, and they take it over.

And they just set up shop there. They live there and they set up, you know, and this is, there's a really cool novel called the girls by Emma Klein. That's about the Manson family. And one of the things that she really gets about spawn ranch, I think absolutely right. Is that the women, what they got more than anything was that there was like a real camaraderie for them among themselves.

It was very gender segregated in a lot of ways. So they're in the kitchen, they're preparing meals. They're, going out during the day to dumpsters to try to come up with produce that's been thrown out.

And so like there's this whole kind of girl slash women culture of Spahn Ranch that's obviously being run by Charlie for Charlie, but like has a lot of space in it for the women to kind of have their own lives.

Again, I want to put it in the language of sexual exploitation. You know, so many of these women are vulnerable in a number of different ways and he individually grooms.

just to use that word that we use, you know, in that context, virtually each woman who comes to him, they, they find women when they're out partying, they find women who may, who have just made their way to the ranch one way or another. And Charlie, like laser beam, you know, for a while, we'll make that person, his object of attention. He'll figure out,

what their biggest vulnerability is, what their relationship with their father is. And then he'll kind of like provide this seemingly loving, gentle, paternal care for them, which then obviously almost always turns it to sexual attention. And the LSD part is definitely in there. I think that gets like a little overstated in our own kind of anti-

hallucinogen moment you know of the 80s and beyond the kind of just say no stuff that we're still living with but he like he knows how to use drugs as part of this for sure there's these kind of group you know trip experiences where he's the master of you know literally the master of ceremonies and And he arranges people. He tells people who they should have sex with and they listen, you know.

So he's arranging these kind of like orgiastic trip scenarios. But it's really, it's that one-on-one thing that I think he masters. Like he's got a great rap. Right. And he knows how to apply it differentially so it'll be effective.

He would really lock in. I think this is the Scientology training. He had this idea of how you become your fullest person, and it was really about presence, about being there. A lot of these young women, some of them were literally directly abused by their fathers, but some of them were just victims of or people who had experienced what we call neglect.

They just had very typically absent 1950s dads. Dad went out to work during the day, didn't really have much to do with the family. And to get this kind of attention from an older man, I think was really hypnotic for a lot of women. And so we talked about it in terms of his eyes, but I really think our focus should be on the kind of whole package is that he knew how to lock in.

I think that's right. And I'm really glad you framed it as such, Don, because it's like we're all still like in the thrall of the prosecutor. You know, Vincent Bugliosi's Helter Skelter and the race war narrative, which I'm I'm sure we'll take a minute to talk about, but you know, Manson, his animus, his engine of his resentment is that he can't make it in the music business.

Like he, he has like a solid year at LA where like he believes his own, like he's high on his own supply. Like he believes his own story. He thinks he's going to be a star. He does not get that while he's playing Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher for certain things, they're playing him as well. So, you know, he has a formal audition and he blows it, you know, like he by his own account.

He's like he freezes up. He can't sing into a microphone. He's not a professional musician. Like he's just not. He's he's cool around a campfire, you know, and we've all seen that. Right. Like we've all seen that guy who, you know, who who takes over the campfire and sing some songs. And that's cool. But he's not. He's not at all a trained musician.

He doesn't know how to, how to play in a, you know, in a studio. And Terry Melcher at that point, like basically throws him to an associate of his who's like got anthropological interest. He's a guy who had gone out, you know, you know, recording native American, you know, tribes and, and so on. And it's like, you might like this guy.

He's, he's kind of like, you know, it's kind of tribal, you know, and Manson cannot believe it. He cannot believe he's not getting a contract. And you know, to his, to his, I don't want to say it's to his credit, but like folks who heard him play thought that he could have been brought along. Like Neil Young very famously said, if Manson had the right band, he could have been like mid-60s Dylan.

Like he could have been that kind of like wild electric sound. But he didn't. Like he was too full of himself. He thought everyone wanted to hang on every word of every song he wrote. But he couldn't. And Terry Melcher basically cuts him. I mean, it's Terry Melcher's the heart of this story. In what way?

Well, Manson really believes, I mean, let's just put this out there because we haven't said it yet. The first set of murders will happen at 10,050 Cielo Drive, which is where Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski live. But that's where Terry Melcher had lived previously. Exactly. And so Manson knows the house. And he's got this resentment that just boils up about Melcher.

Like Melcher for years barely appeared in public because he was so spooked by, I mean, I think he knew, I think he knew that Manson, if Manson wasn't literally targeting him, that Manson's anger, you know, the, the kind of murderous rage that ended up in these, these two nights of murder, I think was very much out of this disappointment that Melcher didn't give him a contract.

Like he really believed that Melcher was going to be his meal ticket.

And I think that's right. But I want to kind of it's obviously out there while what Manson does with the Beatles music and how he reads it. But it's part of a larger wave of understanding rock and roll music and popular music more generally as having cultural weight. as having important political meaning, right?

Like this obviously, it's not just the Beatles, it's obviously Dylan too, and it's all manner of musicians, right? It's some really important jazz musicians who are reaching, you know, in terms of black power. You know, music begins to be understood in the mid-60s as a social force.

Exactly. Commercial, it's top of the charts. And that's a rich brew. And Manson, I mean, he's not like you and me. Like we have the wherewithal to hear music, understand that it's a kind of distinct artistic form. But it's not like, I mean, most of us who are dedicated music listeners have moments where we think,

wow they're talking right to me right like they're like like right like they they know me they understand you know yeah manson had that in a path you know in a pathological way like it tipped over into him thinking it was secret messages he listened to other music too that he didn't take that like he his second favorite band was the moody blues and it's like he didn't get any secret messages you know from them like they weren't telling him you know that he should

dress his knights in white satin or whatever, you know, like he, it was something about the Beatles that really reached him and a lot of people.

Absolutely. They have agency and that, you know, like there's a one or two of them I want to sort of separate out because they were literally what we would now call underage. And so not legally responsible, you know, for. Yeah. But yes, these are women who have agency and they are making decisions to join Manson in this delusional quest.

I want to answer really carefully the question of how much of a white supremacist Manson was. Charles Manson was clearly a racist. He was clearly someone who believed that black people were subhuman and he articulated that again and again in his life. That, as we spoke about earlier, was very much a product of his prison training.

Like that was clearly part of the kind of segregated antagonistic world. I'm not excusing this in any way. I'm just trying to understand it. was he mostly motivated by this thing that Vincent Bugliosi framed at the trial as this race? I mean, that was a fairly late breaking thing in the life of the family.

Manson did begin talking about it with them, but it's no, it had nowhere near the weight that the music business stuff had for the family. The family was organized for months and months and months around getting Charlie a contract. It's not like they actually made a lot of plans for living in a hole in the desert and waiting out the race war and then taking, you know,

I mean, that was when he was really starting to fall apart. And it was very much a symptom of his, you know, what psychologists would call decompensation. You know, like he was losing his shit. And the direction it took, not surprisingly in American culture, given that we're a culture kind of rooted in systemic racism, is that he kind of grabbed that narrative and ran with it.

It's almost impossible to do a head count on the cult because people are coming and going. There are people who are not all the time with them, like Bobby Beausoleil and folks who are associates of the family. But there's a core of a couple dozen people who are always at the ranch.

There's clearly an inner circle, too. And those are the folks who end up being responsible for the two nights of mayhem, you know, in August of 69. And there's clearly like he has his lieutenants, you know, like Tex Watson is clearly the second in command, you know, man. And Lynette Fromm.

And a few of the other women are clearly like the ones running the ranch, you know, the ones who are in charge of the daily operations. But then there's all these other folks, you know, they you if you read deep enough in the literature, you come upon these names and you're like, who's that again?

You know, like like somebody else just showed up a month or so before the murders and lived there for a while. People come and go. Charlie didn't like to let people go like they would chase people down if they tried to leave. Right. Because he needed that like intactness.

First night, they head out to Benedict Canyon, which again, I don't know how familiar your listeners will be with geography of LA, but Benedict Canyon is one of these beautiful areas, a little bit north of where the cultural action is, the Sunset Strip. It's not a long drive, but it's a whole other world.

The question of where Manson's born has been debated for quite a while. The more interesting question is how quickly and at what a young age he entered the prison system. By the age of 12, he was already being charged with fairly major crimes. And one of the things I like to kind of frame when we talk about the Manson family is that he is what we call these days an incarcerated personality.

Again, if your listeners are not on the West Coast, what LA geography looks like is always a mystery to those of us from the East Coast or elsewhere. So it's this really remote feeling part of LA, right?

Right. It's beautiful. It's remote. So they make it to this house, which is the house of... The actor Sharon Tate and her husband, the film director Roman Polanski, who have a few houseguests and the few members of the Manson family make their way in, are clearly intent on just wreaking havoc. It's not that they're just there to kill people. They are there clearly with some instructions.

The line that always gets quoted is that Charlie tells one of the women of the family to do something witchy. And so there's clearly this aspect to the first night of crime, especially, that's about leaving evidence that will freak out observers, that will just undo people.

Yeah. So, you know, the members of the family come in, you know, and folks love to quote, you know, the the lines that particularly Tex Watson said, which is always I'm always a little suspicious of because the only person people who could have reported that are members of the family themselves because everyone else dies.

And so this is clearly part of a mythology they want to promote that, you know. they walk in, you know, Sharon Tate says, what, who are you? What are you doing here? And, you know, Texas, I'm the devil. I'm here to do the devil's work, you know? And it's like, it's like, you didn't need to wait for Quentin Tarantino all those years later.

It was like already a film script, you know, how much Charlie scripted it. We don't know, but like, there's clearly this effort to make a performance and it's this horrifying, tragic, terrible performance. Like they kill this ready to deliver a baby woman. And then her, Her compatriots, the young guy lived back in the carriage house, had a friend who was coming to visit. They kill in the driveway.

You also hang them from the ceiling. I mean, it's really bizarre. No, it's hard. I mean, this is horror movie stuff. One of the things I thought about a lot when I was doing the research is how much the murders actually... influenced actual horror movies of the 1970s. Yeah. You know, home invasion movies and cutting out babies.

You know, I mean, you know, it's just they're writing a script and it's a horrifying script and they do this terrible thing. They kill all these people and head back to the ranch.

He always said that the jailhouse was my father, and that was like a real rhetorical flourish. But I think it's actually useful for us to think about rather than think about him in traditional sense of where did he grow up? Who was his mother? What was her occupation? And folks love to talk about that. Maybe she was a sex worker. Maybe he was the product of one of her work assignations.

I mean, the race war, it's wild that Bugliosi sold, you know, this idea of, you know, that this marginal hippie cult was going to start a race war because two things. First of all, the United States is actively at war in Vietnam, you know, war against Asian people. Like you can call that a race war.

And a few years earlier in LA, there had been a major riot or rebellion, as some people want to call it in Watts, when police officers killed a black motorist who had not done anything wrong. And there's a dispute, right? So like, if you want to talk about racial violence in the United States, in LA, committed by the United States or in LA, there's plenty of race war going on.

It's not Charlie Manson doing it. Sure. Right. Or even if it was, he's not going to affect that kind of change. That's it. That's even better. Like he, maybe he had that motivation. He's not gonna be able to do anything about it. Sure.

It's this very arcane reality that existed in Southern California at the time is that there's the LAPD, but then there's the county sheriff. And they're doing kind of parallel investigations but not talking to each other. And at some point, somebody kind of realizes that they're looking at the same guy. And they realize that he's also connected to the Tate-LaBianca murders.

There's a wallet that got left in a gas station toilet. The details are all really arcane. And somebody finally rides in and puts it together. And so by December— They have this idea that Charlie's the one who's responsible for the whole deal.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question, you know, and, and it, it kind of bedevils the prosecution. Cause it's like, what do you even charge him with? You know, like remote control murder is not like a crime. So it's like conspiracy stuff that he, you know, he ultimately gets jacked up on. And, and it's, I mean, it's a great question. He's not a murderer. I mean, it's,

I mean, Charlie, there's like there's plenty of evidence that he was physically abusive to women in the family, but he's not he's not a shoot him up. You know, there's an earlier murder of Gary Hinman a few weeks before the tape murders that we jumped over. Who's this grad student drug dealer who the family was involved with? And like Charlie showed up at that house and seemed to have.

And I think what we really need to focus on with Madsen is that he's raised in jail. He comes of age in prison in the Midwest. and then later on out on the West Coast. And that's where I really like to kind of press the gas, if that makes sense, to sort of say the details of his own early biography are sad and dark, but they don't really tell us that much about who he ended up being.

done some of the actual violence. But Charlie's a director. I mean, Charlie's a, you know, he's not a get his hands messy kind of guy, right? He's a, you know, write the script and tell people what their roles are in the script. And that's very much what happened. He's a manipulator. He's a manipulator, yeah.

Big guy.

And this one is even harder to get a beat on because it's not it doesn't fit exactly, you know, in the narrative, you know, of Charlie's resentment about the music business or, you know, about kind of street culture versus free culture. Like they end up at the house.

Of Rosemary and Lino LaBianca, who are just these middle class, you know, I mean, they're pretty well off, but it's still to my mind. And if you if you've got a different take, I'd love to hear it. Like, it's still not exactly clear how they ended up there randomly, as far as I know. Right. It seems pretty randomly. Maybe they thought somebody else lived there.

There's all kinds of conflicting testimony about this, but, but be that as it may, they end up, you know, in this home in a much different kind of neighborhood, also a nice, nice neighborhood, but not that kind of hill fancy. These are like solidly up the middle.

That story begins when he's about 12 and his prison life begins.

I love the way you set that up because it's like, these are marginal people. Yeah. These are not like, I mean, we're so used to like heist movies and like George Clooney in a nice suit. We have all these kind of mythologized image of the bad guys, you know, whether it's outlaws from old Western movies or, you know, gangsters from our more recent stuff.

But the Manson family, like they're weirdos and losers. And yes, you know what I mean? They're in death. That like, it's, it's not a nice place to be. Right. And they're busted out there and they're, they're like fishing about like, like they're not hard to find there. Nobody else is living at it. They're not sophisticated criminals is basically not sophisticated criminals. Yeah, that's it.

That's it. And they're easy to bust and they're easy to prosecute because they're, you know, messed up on drugs among other things, but they're not career criminals. They're not, you know, um, and, and they're easily found and, and they're easily brought to trial and they're easily convicted.

That's great. And one of the reasons I, you know, I called my book creepy crawling and we haven't talked about this yet is that the crime that they committed most often was what they called creepy crawling.

That's right. I mean, there was some talk, and I don't know if this has ever been completely nailed down, that he was in Boys Town for a while, kind of classic orphan or quasi-orphan scenario. So yeah, he's in the Midwest and then makes his way, I think, after his grand theft auto joyride out to California and ends up forging a treasury check and ending up in prison for quite a while.

You know, the family would go into a house of somebody that they could get at near Chatsworth and they'd literally go into, while the family was sleeping, they'd go in the house and rearrange the furniture. And this is just like psychological warfare. Like the family would wake up and know someone had been in the house, but not be able to figure out why or what they wanted, right?

And that to me became like the guiding metaphor for what the Manson family has done to us. Like we can't get them, like they're in our heads. Like they're rearranging our furniture. Like we can't like- Wow, she looks like just a normal teenage girl. She did what? Oh, interesting. And that's the metaphor for me that we can't get done with.

We're still trying to figure out how this happened and what happened to families that our daughters were so vulnerable to this. That's what they were so good at, just getting in our houses, getting in our minds.

Yeah, absolutely. And that was really what got me started in during the research was this realization that like every, it felt like every couple months there would be, I'd hear a song or I'd see a new documentary or there'd be a new bit of visual culture. There was this great series of photographs of Barker Ranch that some European photographer did, a real art project.

And I was like, how come we can't leave this guy alone already? Even after Even after he died. And I started thinking there was this great Rolling Stone cover in the 70s about Jim Morrison, another shamanic LA figure. And it was years after Morrison had passed. And the headline, if I'm remembering right, in Rolling Stone said, he's hot, he's sexy, he's dead.

And I thought about that with Manson because I was like, no matter how long he was in prison and then after he died, we're still trying to figure out what he did. Like the murders we know, the true crime piece we're done with. But the cultural part, I mean, he... ended up feeding so many different strains of popular culture.

Like LA, you can't have LA punk in the late 70s and early 80s without Manson. He's all over the musical and visual culture of that moment. Hip hop culture, beginning in the late 80s into the 90s, his name gets, he just becomes like the emblem of kind of

uncontrollable horror I mentioned before and I'll say again the horror movies of the 1970s all these home invasion movies like that becomes a subgenre in horror that I think is very much inspired by the Manson the two nights of Manson murder of like you can be home you think you're safe and then all of a sudden You got hours of, you know, of horror ending in death in front of you.

So like again and again, it was like no surprise to me when it was the opposite of a surprise when Quentin Tarantino, who is just kind of, if nothing else, just like he keeps wanting to make movies about movies, right? Yeah. And he took this most film worthy crime and turned it.

I mean, I hated the movie, but he turned it into this, you know, even more sensationalistic, you know, I don't want to spoil it for anybody who hadn't seen it, but like he blew it up even more than it already was. Sure. And so that was one of the things, my research, like I couldn't do justice. Like I, at some point I was like, I need to have like a,

online searchable index you know like i need somebody with those skills to index every moment that he's mentioned in popular music in film culture in other visual culture sculpture paintings just endless productions

in california and that's where the manson that we are familiar with really sort of like comes of age comes into being he's in fairly intense penitentiary you know scene in in the 50s and by his own account and this has been you know well confirmed like that's where he starts meeting like the real bad guys who shape him in a number of different ways including quite crucially this guy alvin karpis creepy karpis uh is his nickname who was in jail because he was a member

And the paranoia it causes. It's really hard not to see this as the moment that Hollywood switches from expansive, open-ended drug culture, weed and hashish and LSD to the cocaine intensity of the 70s, like, leave me alone, I'm alone, do it, you know?

Absolutely. If I can say one more thing on that, I've always really resisted. It gets quoted again and again. Joan Didion wrote this essay where she says, you know, we knew the 60s ended that night. And I'm like, well, it was August of 69. It was going to end. The 60s were going to end anyway. Three months. Yeah. Right. Like and then Manson gets arrested in December. So it's this very neat.

i think you've been hinting at this and i just want to underline it it's like a punctuation that like those experiments the fun the the the kind of various communities integrating with each other like this is the punctuation that says yeah that that stuff's over right right now now we're going to reorganize in a much more hierarchical kind of way exactly it's no coincidence that you know a few years later you have

There you go.

It's almost, it moves with like the cadence of mythology. He was a member of Ma Barker's gang, you know, and also a guitar player. He taught Manson to play guitar and he also seemed to have taught him a bunch of other things as well. Right. About how to be a more successful criminal.

I mean, Manson always says his other big influence in the fifties besides prison was Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. Right. And that's where it all sort of seems to come together. You know, that like he's in jail and he, he learns how to be a player. He learns how to control people. He kind of develops his individual talent and charisma.

You know, many years later, Ed Sanders would refer to him as the first performance murderer ever. You know, that like he was always very aware of theatricality, you know, and putting on a good show. And he learns that, I think, in jail in the 50s.

Right, absolutely. He's, I mean, he's a little bit hard to talk about because it plays into some kind of like almost like bullying language, but like he's a little guy. Yeah. He's not physically prepossessing. You know, he, I think figures out how to make it in jail through his wiles and through his personality and through his ability to kind of figure out he's a good reader.

That's the main thing. Like he learns how to read people. Like there's the, some people argue that's the Scientology part two. He learned Scientology and in prison and he's kind of figures out how to read personalities and what people need and how to ingratiate himself. Yeah.

So he's like a, like I want to, if it's okay, put him in the context, like great American tradition of con men, you know, confidence men. He knows how to run the game. Right. He might not be the biggest guy, the strongest guy, the best looking guy, but like he knows how to read people. He knows how to flatter them.

And that, that's like, that's like an amazing moment. Cause he'll always say, I'm not a sixties guy. I'm a fifties guy. You know, like he's like, I'm a, I'm a Bing Crosby guy, you know, like that, like that's like, that's who he grows up listening to thinking about. And then he comes out of prison and it's the summer of love in San Francisco.

Yeah. But let's remind you listeners. And you said that you, you already mentioned his birth date. He's not hippie age, right? He's like in his early mid thirties, right? So he comes out and he's kind of scoping the scene clearly as an outsider, just in terms of, we picture those, you know, all the documentaries we've seen of, you know, Summer of Love, like these are young folks.

And he comes out and he's a wolf. He gets the scene. He quickly ascertains that there's a lot of vulnerable young people, right, who have made their way. And this is something I'm particularly interested in that like, not immediately, but he pretty quickly starts realizing that a lot of the young folks in the Bay Area, California in general, are runaways.

either literally or quasi-runaways, you know, left families that were uncomfortable for them at best or literally abusive at worst as, you know, when he meets Lynette Fromm a little bit later. But he begins this process. It's kind of an amazing moment. He gets to the Bay Area and he's like, it's all opportunity for him, right? He's this, you know, charismatic, talented.

It's hard to say this in respect of that guy who ended up responsible for these murders, but he's He's sensitive. He's like a good listener. And he finds these young women who need a good listener. And he's an older guy, and he's got that appeal on that level. And so he starts meeting people. First, he meets this Berkeley librarian, connects up with her. Then he meets a few other women.

And before long, they're established in the Bay Area. They get studied by the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic. Some doctors there who see them as a fascinating example of plural marriage, you know, essentially. And they publish an article. Wow. This is before any of the controversy or the notoriety. They just like to see Manson as kind of one more iteration of new social arrangements.

Again, I always try to be careful about what language I use in talking about him because I don't want to over-credit him or sound like I'm supporting or approving of what he did. He's incredibly savvy. What you just said, Donna, is so right. He is part of this cultural moment of recognizing that there's this new youth culture. Some people are studying it. Some people are trying to sell stuff.

you know to them some people are trying to prosecute them and crack down on them but it's this like intense like who are these young people what are they like why are they wearing clothes like this why do they dance like that why is their music sound like this what are these drugs they're you know and he steps in as like what i want to call like a cultural entrepreneur um he he sees this and he sees this is just like a rich vein of opportunity and he figures it out like in a minute

It's like a small handful at this point.

Yeah, that's amazing. And that's where the story gets, I mean, obviously we wouldn't be talking about him if they didn't end up in LA and everything that ensues. And I mean, that's part of, you know, I called him before a cultural entrepreneur, like he begins to really fancy himself a musician and he begins to imagine himself as a musician with

real potential and so la is where it's happening i mean this is la's moment it's i mean when i started researching this stuff i was like earlier in my career did a a book about when new york jews first musicians first you know gershwin and that whole crew in the 1920s first moved out to hollywood because that's where the action was going to be for musicians you know making making music for movies and from that moment on like la slowly becomes the heart of the american music business and it's off the hook in 67 68

The kind of Sunset Strip action, the clubs that just kind of in the street hanging out, you know, informal rituals of hanging out. And then the record companies who are looking for, you know, constantly looking for new young talent. So it's this amazing moment.

It is. I mean, it's sometime in 68, like, and people argue about exactly when. It seems like a couple of the women of the family get picked up hitchhiking by Dennis Wilson. Like, it's this totally, you know, just... lucky accident.

But it's like the way the story gets told, it's like they get picked up hitchhiking and then next they're basically living in his house, the whole family, you know, like they're crashing at Dennis Wilson's Pacific Palisades house. And Dennis Wilson's got this whole crew of guys who begin noticing this.

It's incredibly, I mean, I just want to make sure that we don't laugh it up too much because like it's incredibly exploitive scenario. Like in the research I did, I really focused on this category that we've come to call groupies.

Which is, you know, it's a really complicated category, right? Yes. Right? It can mean just fan, but like baked into it in this moment in the late 60s is it's young women. It's vulnerable young women. It's young women who are being kind of sexually exploited by much older men who are being promised things that, you know, maybe they're going to get, maybe they're not going to get.