Jefferson Fisher

When it starts really superficial.

I can see that.

And you said in your book, and I've seen some other interviews, because I listen to you too, Emma, it's not just one way.

It's not just one way, it's a two-way road, of understanding also the value, or at least not being afraid

to try and mask the fact that some things are transactional, where you don't have to, because it's almost worse when somebody starts with the gloss, the fake, when you know they're going to be asking for something.

They hate for something.

What you're saying is,

Just own that.

I would rather you own that than try and be genuine.

So do you see that as something that you go, I can already tell that they're wanting something from me?

How does that process for you?

I get such a treasure talking to you.

Now this is the second time we've had the chance to meet and of course we've communicated since.

But what a treasure is for me is I get to talk to somebody who has such a roster of experience and a depth of success in running businesses and somebody who is

a woman and a woman of color and to say, okay, I know that when somebody asks me, a white male, say, how do you say things direct, right?

And I know my perspective is just one.

and I will get comments which are very well received of that wouldn't work for me.

That doesn't work in the, I'm a woman, that's not gonna work for me.

You don't understand what that's like.

And the answer is I do not know what that's like.