Jim Rutenberg

So you could see how a show like his, again, which has a ton of credibility with its audience. can be a really powerful vehicle for the Trump administration as it sets out on this aggressive agenda that's being challenged in a lot of cases by journalists and certainly the courts.

So you could see how a show like his, again, which has a ton of credibility with its audience. can be a really powerful vehicle for the Trump administration as it sets out on this aggressive agenda that's being challenged in a lot of cases by journalists and certainly the courts.

Yeah, easily. Huge. Yeah. No president has had anything close to this in terms of basically, like, media cheerleading and support. And on top of that, there are kind of new— organisms coming out of this Petri dish, right? And they're really, we've never seen anything like them. Such as? Well, I'm thinking about, in this case, Turning Point USA and Turning Point Action.

Yeah, easily. Huge. Yeah. No president has had anything close to this in terms of basically, like, media cheerleading and support. And on top of that, there are kind of new— organisms coming out of this Petri dish, right? And they're really, we've never seen anything like them. Such as? Well, I'm thinking about, in this case, Turning Point USA and Turning Point Action.

And this is an organization, listeners will have probably heard of him, people on social media, Charlie Kirk is kind of the- He's the face of this. Of this organization. And this organization, think about it this way. Take- Sean Hannity of Fox News, and then put him on a podcast, a big, giant one, and then layer on top of that an actual political organization.

And this is an organization, listeners will have probably heard of him, people on social media, Charlie Kirk is kind of the- He's the face of this. Of this organization. And this organization, think about it this way. Take- Sean Hannity of Fox News, and then put him on a podcast, a big, giant one, and then layer on top of that an actual political organization.

It's got chapters on more than 850 college campuses. And there, they're getting people active in politics for the first time, but conservative politics, organizing people, getting people out to vote. That's basically what you have with Turning Point. Look, when I started covering media, we talked about Fox News and Roger Ailes.

It's got chapters on more than 850 college campuses. And there, they're getting people active in politics for the first time, but conservative politics, organizing people, getting people out to vote. That's basically what you have with Turning Point. Look, when I started covering media, we talked about Fox News and Roger Ailes.

And people would say derisively, Roger Ailes is like a part of the Republican Party or the chairman of the Republican Party. Charlie Kirk is running his own political operation and a giant media operation. And they're all rowing in the same direction. And that direction is Donald Trump. It's Donald Trump.

And people would say derisively, Roger Ailes is like a part of the Republican Party or the chairman of the Republican Party. Charlie Kirk is running his own political operation and a giant media operation. And they're all rowing in the same direction. And that direction is Donald Trump. It's Donald Trump.

And now that Trump has moved into governing, Kirk can use this sort of get-out-the-vote machinery meets media machine to act as something of a Trump enforcer. Hmm. Just give us an example of that.

And now that Trump has moved into governing, Kirk can use this sort of get-out-the-vote machinery meets media machine to act as something of a Trump enforcer. Hmm. Just give us an example of that.

There's a great example that was contained in a really good story about Charlie Kirk and Turning Point in the New York Times Magazine by our colleague Robert Draper, where Robert Draper is with Charlie Kirk having dinner in Palm Beach in December, and Pete Hegsath has been nominated as defense secretary. Right. There's a lot of controversy around him. Right, accusations of sexual assault.

There's a great example that was contained in a really good story about Charlie Kirk and Turning Point in the New York Times Magazine by our colleague Robert Draper, where Robert Draper is with Charlie Kirk having dinner in Palm Beach in December, and Pete Hegsath has been nominated as defense secretary. Right. There's a lot of controversy around him. Right, accusations of sexual assault.

And Joni Ernst, senator from Iowa, is on the fence. Good Republican, but on the fence. And a key vote. Key vote. And Charlie meets us at Draper at dinner. You know, I think we're going to have to consider primarying some of these Republicans who don't step in line with the agenda, who sort of take the Trump base for granted. And maybe we'll primary some people.

And Joni Ernst, senator from Iowa, is on the fence. Good Republican, but on the fence. And a key vote. Key vote. And Charlie meets us at Draper at dinner. You know, I think we're going to have to consider primarying some of these Republicans who don't step in line with the agenda, who sort of take the Trump base for granted. And maybe we'll primary some people.

Nixon inherits this news media that's in its kind of full flower of independence.

Nixon inherits this news media that's in its kind of full flower of independence.

And among the people he mentions is Joni Ernst. And Charlie Kirk proceeds to do just that.

And among the people he mentions is Joni Ernst. And Charlie Kirk proceeds to do just that.

He says, what he said to Draper, he says on his show to millions of people.

He says, what he said to Draper, he says on his show to millions of people.

And circulates that around on X because it always comes back to X one way or another. Wow, real full circle moment here. That's what I'm talking about. And then gets to announce that he has word that she will be endorsing Hegseth. Right.

And circulates that around on X because it always comes back to X one way or another. Wow, real full circle moment here. That's what I'm talking about. And then gets to announce that he has word that she will be endorsing Hegseth. Right.

It is challenging presidents and government in ways that weren't non-existent, but weren't as common.

It is challenging presidents and government in ways that weren't non-existent, but weren't as common.

Exactly. That's why you'll hear it come up again and again, slogans among this cohort. We are the media. That's their kind of thing. We're it now. Bye-bye.

Exactly. That's why you'll hear it come up again and again, slogans among this cohort. We are the media. That's their kind of thing. We're it now. Bye-bye.

Us. You. You. Well, they didn't mention either of us by name.

Us. You. You. Well, they didn't mention either of us by name.

Again, you know, apples and oranges in the metrics, but no matter what, we see it in the views. Millions and millions of people are inhaling this stuff.

Again, you know, apples and oranges in the metrics, but no matter what, we see it in the views. Millions and millions of people are inhaling this stuff.

So this is really now a completely uncharted media environment that we're only beginning to understand. No president has had anything like this. Nothing close. And yet for all of that, it's not enough for Trump. Because he still really does care what the mainstream media has to say, what this old media sphere has to say.

So this is really now a completely uncharted media environment that we're only beginning to understand. No president has had anything like this. Nothing close. And yet for all of that, it's not enough for Trump. Because he still really does care what the mainstream media has to say, what this old media sphere has to say.

And he's been making it increasingly clear he wants it entirely either out of his way or solely serving his interests.

And he's been making it increasingly clear he wants it entirely either out of his way or solely serving his interests.

In his view, the media was hounding him about Vietnam.

In his view, the media was hounding him about Vietnam.

Let's just say if you listen to people around Trump like Elon Musk, crippling it would apparently be like the nice thing to do after Trump's election. Musk, for instance, wrote on X literally, the legacy media must die. That's the real quote. Wow. But there's one sort of easy answer, and that is that there are still millions of people who watch network television.

Let's just say if you listen to people around Trump like Elon Musk, crippling it would apparently be like the nice thing to do after Trump's election. Musk, for instance, wrote on X literally, the legacy media must die. That's the real quote. Wow. But there's one sort of easy answer, and that is that there are still millions of people who watch network television.

There are still big newspapers doing journalism, and they get scoops about his administration that his sort of podcast friendlies don't get, right? They're digging stuff up. Some of that is, like, winding up in these court cases against his agenda, right? I think he just sees it as, hey, they're still part of the media system.

There are still big newspapers doing journalism, and they get scoops about his administration that his sort of podcast friendlies don't get, right? They're digging stuff up. Some of that is, like, winding up in these court cases against his agenda, right? I think he just sees it as, hey, they're still part of the media system.

And then, of course, we move into these stories about the break-in at the Watergate.

And then, of course, we move into these stories about the break-in at the Watergate.

For all of the advantages I have elsewhere, this old part is still out to get me, and I got to cut it off. It's in the way.

For all of the advantages I have elsewhere, this old part is still out to get me, and I got to cut it off. It's in the way.

Well, let's start with the courts. He's been bringing some pretty aggressive lawsuits. And where he has done this in the past, now that he's kind of won the popular vote, he's feeling more powerful, we're watching as he's getting very different results. Hmm. Just explain that. Well... There have been a couple that Trump filed from even before he became president.

Well, let's start with the courts. He's been bringing some pretty aggressive lawsuits. And where he has done this in the past, now that he's kind of won the popular vote, he's feeling more powerful, we're watching as he's getting very different results. Hmm. Just explain that. Well... There have been a couple that Trump filed from even before he became president.

And one that everybody probably remembers was against ABC News, which settled for $15 million. People saw it as a real capitulation, a real shrinking in the face of a threat. But let's focus on the one he brought against CBS 60 Minutes and CBS's parent company, Paramount.

And one that everybody probably remembers was against ABC News, which settled for $15 million. People saw it as a real capitulation, a real shrinking in the face of a threat. But let's focus on the one he brought against CBS 60 Minutes and CBS's parent company, Paramount.

This one was based on his view or this idea that when 60 Minutes interviewed Kamala Harris during the campaign, it had edited one of her answers to make her sound better. Because in two different places, two different excerpts of this same interview, they showed different answers to the same question, which is really just different parts of a longer answer. And this was like unheard of.

This one was based on his view or this idea that when 60 Minutes interviewed Kamala Harris during the campaign, it had edited one of her answers to make her sound better. Because in two different places, two different excerpts of this same interview, they showed different answers to the same question, which is really just different parts of a longer answer. And this was like unheard of.

to sue over this idea that somehow CBS was playing games with The Sound to help her in her campaign. I mean, it was just like, as far as First Amendment lawyers were concerned, a no-brainer that this would not stand. It was almost like a frivolous lawsuit. Mm-hmm. And what happens? Well, something shocking happens.

to sue over this idea that somehow CBS was playing games with The Sound to help her in her campaign. I mean, it was just like, as far as First Amendment lawyers were concerned, a no-brainer that this would not stand. It was almost like a frivolous lawsuit. Mm-hmm. And what happens? Well, something shocking happens.

Word gets out that CBS's parent company, Paramount, is preparing to enter talks to settle this lawsuit. And this is happening just as Trump is taking office. And this has huge ramifications inside of CBS News at 60 Minutes, which, by the way... We can talk about network news not being what it once was. 60 Minutes is still a giant television show. It's like the last of them.

Word gets out that CBS's parent company, Paramount, is preparing to enter talks to settle this lawsuit. And this is happening just as Trump is taking office. And this has huge ramifications inside of CBS News at 60 Minutes, which, by the way... We can talk about network news not being what it once was. 60 Minutes is still a giant television show. It's like the last of them.

And it is a serious journalistic operation. So the idea that the parent company is going to make them settle this lawsuit about an actual answer that the Democratic nominee and sitting vice president made, I mean, that's just unbelievable to them. But there's a bigger thing at stake involved in this. Which is what?

And it is a serious journalistic operation. So the idea that the parent company is going to make them settle this lawsuit about an actual answer that the Democratic nominee and sitting vice president made, I mean, that's just unbelievable to them. But there's a bigger thing at stake involved in this. Which is what?

So it's just ramping up along with Nixon's own fury. And, you know, I've spent a lot of time in the Nixon archives. And you see the memos every day where Nixon's aides are sending him the scripts from the evening news because the evening news, especially Walter Cronkite of CBS, I mean, they are crazy. kind of this behemoth.

So it's just ramping up along with Nixon's own fury. And, you know, I've spent a lot of time in the Nixon archives. And you see the memos every day where Nixon's aides are sending him the scripts from the evening news because the evening news, especially Walter Cronkite of CBS, I mean, they are crazy. kind of this behemoth.

Behind the scenes, the Trump administration is dangling a basically punishment against Paramount and its primary business interests. Because Paramount is trying to affect a sale to another media company called Skydance. That deal is going to need approval immediately. from the federal government, including the Federal Communications Commission, which controls station licenses for CBS News.

Behind the scenes, the Trump administration is dangling a basically punishment against Paramount and its primary business interests. Because Paramount is trying to affect a sale to another media company called Skydance. That deal is going to need approval immediately. from the federal government, including the Federal Communications Commission, which controls station licenses for CBS News.

And so the fear is that the FCC will somehow seek to block this merger because of Trump's personal peak at the network.

And so the fear is that the FCC will somehow seek to block this merger because of Trump's personal peak at the network.

Yeah. And so here's Paramount wanting to just get this out of the way by folding on this very kind of central question about freedom of speech and freedom of the press. And sure enough, the man who Trump had just recently appointed as the chair of the FCC, Brendan Carr...

Yeah. And so here's Paramount wanting to just get this out of the way by folding on this very kind of central question about freedom of speech and freedom of the press. And sure enough, the man who Trump had just recently appointed as the chair of the FCC, Brendan Carr...

opens an investigation based on a complaint that the FCC under Biden had just dismissed, and that involves CBS's handling of this interview edit. And Carr will even go on to say fairly explicitly that approval of that deal could hinge on what the FCC finds. So now CBS is asked, show us your script, show us your raw material, and CBS complies, which yet again...

opens an investigation based on a complaint that the FCC under Biden had just dismissed, and that involves CBS's handling of this interview edit. And Carr will even go on to say fairly explicitly that approval of that deal could hinge on what the FCC finds. So now CBS is asked, show us your script, show us your raw material, and CBS complies, which yet again...

in journalism world is seen as this complete caving.

in journalism world is seen as this complete caving.

Right. It's just how the editing process works. You see it. It's kind of boring, right? But it shows you can torque anything into anything, and the FCC is expected to kind of know that. It had known that. But here we were.

Right. It's just how the editing process works. You see it. It's kind of boring, right? But it shows you can torque anything into anything, and the FCC is expected to kind of know that. It had known that. But here we were.

Yeah, and it does something that Nixon was only threatening to do. In the Nixon years, they were threatening to bring the FCC after the biased networks in New York and L.A., Washington, whatever. They were threatening FCC power. They held back from really asserting it. And it's not clear that this will end with the FCC, which is a regulatory body, right?

Yeah, and it does something that Nixon was only threatening to do. In the Nixon years, they were threatening to bring the FCC after the biased networks in New York and L.A., Washington, whatever. They were threatening FCC power. They held back from really asserting it. And it's not clear that this will end with the FCC, which is a regulatory body, right?

They are getting tens of millions of viewers every night, and they are calling it straight, but they are not calling it in favor of Nixon. And so Nixon would get these scripts and circle them like, who's talking to them? And just, Cronkite, I'm going to stop this. You know, he's just yelling at his aides to get on top of this. We have to stop this. Do something about it. Do something.

They are getting tens of millions of viewers every night, and they are calling it straight, but they are not calling it in favor of Nixon. And so Nixon would get these scripts and circle them like, who's talking to them? And just, Cronkite, I'm going to stop this. You know, he's just yelling at his aides to get on top of this. We have to stop this. Do something about it. Do something.

A few weeks ago, Trump gave a speech at the Department of Justice.

A few weeks ago, Trump gave a speech at the Department of Justice.

Where he essentially argued that he would like to transform the DOJ itself into a cudgel against the press.

Where he essentially argued that he would like to transform the DOJ itself into a cudgel against the press.

He literally said that the press, in reporting some stories he personally didn't like, was probably acting illegally.

He literally said that the press, in reporting some stories he personally didn't like, was probably acting illegally.

Exactly. But these actions he's taking in the courts with the FCC, possibly now DOJ, they take time. And so in the interim, he's doing what he can now to curtail access and punish outlets for not going along with his narrative. And I think the best example of this is what he did against the Associated Press. As you may remember, he has declared that the Gulf of Mexico is now the Gulf of America.

Exactly. But these actions he's taking in the courts with the FCC, possibly now DOJ, they take time. And so in the interim, he's doing what he can now to curtail access and punish outlets for not going along with his narrative. And I think the best example of this is what he did against the Associated Press. As you may remember, he has declared that the Gulf of Mexico is now the Gulf of America.

The Associated Press has not updated its style book on the Gulf of America, and the White House was very angry about this. So the Associated Press was pulled out of the press pool.

The Associated Press has not updated its style book on the Gulf of America, and the White House was very angry about this. So the Associated Press was pulled out of the press pool.

Yeah, and by the way, that's one thing for us, right? The New York Times, we write a story a day or how many stories out of that. The AP... is a wire service. It goes to newspapers across the country. It feeds 15,000 other media outlets, a lot of them who can't afford to have one. The AP is kind of the eyes and the ears for a lot of local media around the country. Thank you.

Yeah, and by the way, that's one thing for us, right? The New York Times, we write a story a day or how many stories out of that. The AP... is a wire service. It goes to newspapers across the country. It feeds 15,000 other media outlets, a lot of them who can't afford to have one. The AP is kind of the eyes and the ears for a lot of local media around the country. Thank you.

You said it better than I was saying it. That's why you're— That's the job. That's what you do. And this was, again, kind of—this was unheard of. And, again, put the press on notice that now you need to use the language that the president wants you to use or you are going to be punished. Mm-hmm.

You said it better than I was saying it. That's why you're— That's the job. That's what you do. And this was, again, kind of—this was unheard of. And, again, put the press on notice that now you need to use the language that the president wants you to use or you are going to be punished. Mm-hmm.

And there's something else that's going on here that's very important, not to maybe the average listener until they think about it. But because the press needs to be independent, it has always insisted that it will control the pool at the White House. The people covering the White House determined who each day was going to be assigned to play this role. Right. So for the first time in memory—

And there's something else that's going on here that's very important, not to maybe the average listener until they think about it. But because the press needs to be independent, it has always insisted that it will control the pool at the White House. The people covering the White House determined who each day was going to be assigned to play this role. Right. So for the first time in memory—

And he began... a campaign to beat back what he and his aides call these unelected communication powers. They start politically just going after the press.

And he began... a campaign to beat back what he and his aides call these unelected communication powers. They start politically just going after the press.

The Trump White House, a White House, is saying, no, we're controlling the pool. We're going to decide who's in the room. And why exactly does that matter? Well, the whole press pool, the whole tradition is starting to look very different. And what's an example of that? There was a really stark example of this recently.

The Trump White House, a White House, is saying, no, we're controlling the pool. We're going to decide who's in the room. And why exactly does that matter? Well, the whole press pool, the whole tradition is starting to look very different. And what's an example of that? There was a really stark example of this recently.

When President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine came to the White House to discuss war and peace in his country, how they were going to end this rank death and destruction in Ukraine. And in this setting, one of the new members of the pool, a gentleman from Right Side Broadcasting, an online, very pro-Trump network, was given a question.

When President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine came to the White House to discuss war and peace in his country, how they were going to end this rank death and destruction in Ukraine. And in this setting, one of the new members of the pool, a gentleman from Right Side Broadcasting, an online, very pro-Trump network, was given a question.

And that question was, why are you, President Zelensky, dressed like this in the Oval Office?

And that question was, why are you, President Zelensky, dressed like this in the Oval Office?

which President Trump had already made a crack about that he didn't like it that President Zelensky was, as he often does, wearing kind of a more of a military field uniform, not a suit.

which President Trump had already made a crack about that he didn't like it that President Zelensky was, as he often does, wearing kind of a more of a military field uniform, not a suit.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Very unusual to this degree from a White House. They see about using kind of the mechanisms of power, using, for instance, the Federal Communications Commission, which you know is the FCC, to punish stations for their licenses. They try to stop the New York Times from publishing the secret war history known as the Pentagon Papers. They go to court, but they lose.

Very unusual to this degree from a White House. They see about using kind of the mechanisms of power, using, for instance, the Federal Communications Commission, which you know is the FCC, to punish stations for their licenses. They try to stop the New York Times from publishing the secret war history known as the Pentagon Papers. They go to court, but they lose.

When they try to do things at the FCC, they realize it's kind of a bridge too far. They can try to enact some changes of regulation, but that's years away. They can't really just snap their fingers. And ultimately, what Nixon can't do is stop the railroad train coming at his White House of Watergate.

When they try to do things at the FCC, they realize it's kind of a bridge too far. They can try to enact some changes of regulation, but that's years away. They can't really just snap their fingers. And ultimately, what Nixon can't do is stop the railroad train coming at his White House of Watergate.

And basically, it is ultimately the powerful independent press that gives him no option but to resign.

And basically, it is ultimately the powerful independent press that gives him no option but to resign.

Yeah, the press, the power of the press prevails. And the reason I've been thinking about it a lot lately is is that the echoes to that moment, to that period in time, are so loud in these early days of the new Trump administration, strikingly so.

Yeah, the press, the power of the press prevails. And the reason I've been thinking about it a lot lately is is that the echoes to that moment, to that period in time, are so loud in these early days of the new Trump administration, strikingly so.

He's going after the press in ways that are very similar to the ways Nixon did, but he's going farther than Nixon did already in just the first couple months. At the same time, he's completely able to make an end run around the press, around its journalistic narratives, to this huge new media sphere that will present the world only on the terms that Trump wants it presented on.

He's going after the press in ways that are very similar to the ways Nixon did, but he's going farther than Nixon did already in just the first couple months. At the same time, he's completely able to make an end run around the press, around its journalistic narratives, to this huge new media sphere that will present the world only on the terms that Trump wants it presented on.

And that is something that Nixon could have only dreamed of.

And that is something that Nixon could have only dreamed of.

Yeah, in 2016. So he already had Fox News, which... always was very friendly to Republicans, especially its primetime hosts. For Trump, after a bumpy period in the beginning, they really get into his corner. And that just grows through his administration. They're even more in his corner, night after night, kind of parroting what he's saying. And he's kind of sometimes parroting them.

Yeah, in 2016. So he already had Fox News, which... always was very friendly to Republicans, especially its primetime hosts. For Trump, after a bumpy period in the beginning, they really get into his corner. And that just grows through his administration. They're even more in his corner, night after night, kind of parroting what he's saying. And he's kind of sometimes parroting them.

And there's a real symbiosis. And that, for its time, was really new. But then when he leaves office, in just the short period of time, we're only talking four years, right? When Trump is shooed out of Washington following the violence of January 6th, the media will go on to radically change. And perhaps most importantly, it's changed in a place where so many people now get their news.

And there's a real symbiosis. And that, for its time, was really new. But then when he leaves office, in just the short period of time, we're only talking four years, right? When Trump is shooed out of Washington following the violence of January 6th, the media will go on to radically change. And perhaps most importantly, it's changed in a place where so many people now get their news.

And that's, of course, social media. Mm-hmm. And you know where I'm going, right? Where I'm heading here now is to talk about X, formerly Twitter. Since 2020, it goes through this enormous change. Of course, it's come under the control of Elon Musk. And he goes on to reconfigure it from a place where—think about this— Trump couldn't even post by early 2021.

And that's, of course, social media. Mm-hmm. And you know where I'm going, right? Where I'm heading here now is to talk about X, formerly Twitter. Since 2020, it goes through this enormous change. Of course, it's come under the control of Elon Musk. And he goes on to reconfigure it from a place where—think about this— Trump couldn't even post by early 2021.

He'd been completely banned after the insurrection. So now it goes from that to being a real megaphone for his message, for his supporters message. It's reaching tens of millions of monthly active users in the U.S., many more globally. And, by the way, it's a place where information moves out algorithmically to the top of people's feeds, and that is controlled by said Trump fan, Elon Musk. Right.

He'd been completely banned after the insurrection. So now it goes from that to being a real megaphone for his message, for his supporters message. It's reaching tens of millions of monthly active users in the U.S., many more globally. And, by the way, it's a place where information moves out algorithmically to the top of people's feeds, and that is controlled by said Trump fan, Elon Musk. Right.

That's huge. Can I just pause?

That's huge. Can I just pause?

Mine too, and people have done experiments because, you know, these algorithms are sort of still... bafflingly among the least understood things in American politics right now. But that is my experience. That's the experience of people who try to do kind of neutral studies.

Mine too, and people have done experiments because, you know, these algorithms are sort of still... bafflingly among the least understood things in American politics right now. But that is my experience. That's the experience of people who try to do kind of neutral studies.

And that's a big deal for Trump because it's, as you note, these are Trumpian narratives that take over the platform and support whatever he's saying that day.

And that's a big deal for Trump because it's, as you note, these are Trumpian narratives that take over the platform and support whatever he's saying that day.

Empirically, it seems that way. Musk won't always say that. Sometimes he'll deny that. Often he'll deny that. But it's, I mean, it's just universally study after study finds that. And that is directly tied to something that gets a ton of promotion on X, but it's its own media sphere.

Empirically, it seems that way. Musk won't always say that. Sometimes he'll deny that. Often he'll deny that. But it's, I mean, it's just universally study after study finds that. And that is directly tied to something that gets a ton of promotion on X, but it's its own media sphere.

And it's emerged in this entirely new way, and that's this world of male-dominated media, largely podcasts often referred to as the Manosphere. Which has grown exponentially since Trump was last in office. A number of shows and popularity. And so who are these people? These are like, they're kind of just bros. The best way to describe what they do is bro casual.

And it's emerged in this entirely new way, and that's this world of male-dominated media, largely podcasts often referred to as the Manosphere. Which has grown exponentially since Trump was last in office. A number of shows and popularity. And so who are these people? These are like, they're kind of just bros. The best way to describe what they do is bro casual.

They're reaching this disaffected young male audience that's historically been very hard to reach. These guys are talking to them, and they're talking to them about video games or silly pranks or mixed martial arts or professional wrestling. Mm-hmm.

They're reaching this disaffected young male audience that's historically been very hard to reach. These guys are talking to them, and they're talking to them about video games or silly pranks or mixed martial arts or professional wrestling. Mm-hmm.

And Trump starts showing up on these shows.

And Trump starts showing up on these shows.

He actually credits his son, Barron, for showing him that these shows could be a powerful way to reach what his team termed low-propensity voters.

He actually credits his son, Barron, for showing him that these shows could be a powerful way to reach what his team termed low-propensity voters.

And it plays to Trump's personality. It's like perfect for his freewheeling style. And so he proves to be quite the match for a lot of these shows.

And it plays to Trump's personality. It's like perfect for his freewheeling style. And so he proves to be quite the match for a lot of these shows.

Because when you drive to Palm Springs, you got to see all the windmills. And ever since you said that, it just pisses me off when I see all the windmills.

Because when you drive to Palm Springs, you got to see all the windmills. And ever since you said that, it just pisses me off when I see all the windmills.

Just kind of shooting the breeze. sometimes about politics, but all sorts of other things. You know, we know how it's like a constant weave. Remember how he would do the speech, he would call it a weave because he would weave all over the place? These things are built for that. And you know what?

Just kind of shooting the breeze. sometimes about politics, but all sorts of other things. You know, we know how it's like a constant weave. Remember how he would do the speech, he would call it a weave because he would weave all over the place? These things are built for that. And you know what?

But no one at that world is more important, and I would say fewer more important now in modern media than the prototypical star of the Manosphere, and that is Joe Rogan.

But no one at that world is more important, and I would say fewer more important now in modern media than the prototypical star of the Manosphere, and that is Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan has incredible credibility with this crowd because he was a Bernie Sanders guy. His podcast is really breezy.

Joe Rogan has incredible credibility with this crowd because he was a Bernie Sanders guy. His podcast is really breezy.

And he has an interview with Trump during the campaign.

And he has an interview with Trump during the campaign.

And... But get this, that interview with Trump has racked up more than 50 million views on YouTube alone. Now, those aren't ratings points, right? 50 million views, we don't know how long those people were there, but that is a lot of people. Now we're talking like Cronkite level person.

And... But get this, that interview with Trump has racked up more than 50 million views on YouTube alone. Now, those aren't ratings points, right? 50 million views, we don't know how long those people were there, but that is a lot of people. Now we're talking like Cronkite level person.

And he's going basically all in with Trump.

And he's going basically all in with Trump.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And endorsements only go so far in this world. That's a big endorsement.

And endorsements only go so far in this world. That's a big endorsement.

That one went, as best we can tell, real far. Because we see it in the exit polls and the post-polling analyses that Trump gained with young voters overall, with young men. And that's all well and good for a campaign. But here's the thing now. is that that's all still here for Trump.

That one went, as best we can tell, real far. Because we see it in the exit polls and the post-polling analyses that Trump gained with young voters overall, with young men. And that's all well and good for a campaign. But here's the thing now. is that that's all still here for Trump.

And so as Trump has set out to, you know, reorder government and really push the limits of anything that establishment Washington has certainly seen, he still has this media world to promote his agenda.

And so as Trump has set out to, you know, reorder government and really push the limits of anything that establishment Washington has certainly seen, he still has this media world to promote his agenda.

Well, in many ways, we would not be where we are in the media sphere were it not for Richard Nixon. And I mean that on a couple of different levels. Nixon was the first president to really face... the full force of an independent, truly challenging press corps. It started, Johnson was facing some during the Vietnam War and was very angry about it.

Well, in many ways, we would not be where we are in the media sphere were it not for Richard Nixon. And I mean that on a couple of different levels. Nixon was the first president to really face... the full force of an independent, truly challenging press corps. It started, Johnson was facing some during the Vietnam War and was very angry about it.

For example, Elon Musk, who's really... The face, certainly the biggest spokesperson for what the administration is calling the Department of Government Efficiency, he's come on to Rogan a couple of times recently. Once was during the election, but more recently after.

For example, Elon Musk, who's really... The face, certainly the biggest spokesperson for what the administration is calling the Department of Government Efficiency, he's come on to Rogan a couple of times recently. Once was during the election, but more recently after.

And both interviews were really striking for what they said about a Joe Rogan versus a Walter Cronkite and certainly Cronkite's successors at the Evening News broadcast on the main networks now. because their networks, the Walter Cronkite, they're rooted in news. You can like them or hate them, but they try to traffic in verifiable fact, following the rules of journalism. Rogan doesn't.

And both interviews were really striking for what they said about a Joe Rogan versus a Walter Cronkite and certainly Cronkite's successors at the Evening News broadcast on the main networks now. because their networks, the Walter Cronkite, they're rooted in news. You can like them or hate them, but they try to traffic in verifiable fact, following the rules of journalism. Rogan doesn't.

He's free to say and go wherever he wants, as his guests can go on and on about things, no matter how far they may be veering from the verifiable facts.

He's free to say and go wherever he wants, as his guests can go on and on about things, no matter how far they may be veering from the verifiable facts.

During this last appearance last month, Musk talks with Rogan about all the receipts, right? All the fraud he's finding. Things that the news... are really treating skeptically and finding a lot of flaws with. But Rogan is kind of just wowed by this.

During this last appearance last month, Musk talks with Rogan about all the receipts, right? All the fraud he's finding. Things that the news... are really treating skeptically and finding a lot of flaws with. But Rogan is kind of just wowed by this.

You know, it's just because at face value, it all does sound really crazy.

You know, it's just because at face value, it all does sound really crazy.