John Daniel

Even before I came into office, I was very clear that in the immediate aftermath of 9-11, we did some things that were wrong.

We did a whole lot of things that were right, but we tortured some folks.

We did some things that were contrary to our values.

War demands brutal calculations.

What are you willing to do to keep your people safe?

Which might be worth thinking about if you're poking the Russian bear.

Although our Russia expert sounds reassuring on this.

It's more the attack on Western liberal democracies in terms of disinformation and misinformation that is spreading, particularly through the internet.

It's something that Russia and the Soviet Union used to be very good at in the past, and it seems to be something that they're doing now to huge effect.

And as a result, we're seeing a sort of polarisation and erosion of trust in institutions in the West.

Is that fair?

Yeah.

Professor Azizian is referring to the Such case, remember, where former senior civil servant Bill Such was picked up by Kit Bennett one night in Karori meeting the KGB resident, although he was ultimately found not guilty of violating the Official Secrets Act.

Ruben Azizian says while this plays out now through social media, Russia Today, the Russian state English-language broadcast television network that was dropped here in New Zealand after Russia invaded Ukraine, illustrates how the strategy for influencing Western democracies has evolved.

Now, if this feels like a warp from our CIA story, stick with us.

We've gone out on a bit of a loop, but we're about to come back to it.

Let's just remind ourselves that the Russian state moved from the communist politics of the Soviet Union to a country that is at least nominally democratic.

But the state security services remain very similar to the Soviet era.

The KGB has been split into the domestic FSB and the foreign SVR, but with much the same people and methods.

And Soviet military intelligence, the GRU, remains the GRU.