John Daniel

So it's interesting to hear that level of preconception from a man at the heart of American security.

Now, there are different versions of this and no doubt deeply felt.

Labour are elected on a nuclear-free ticket in 1984, but at the time, no one quite knows what that means.

The Labour government in Australia arrive in 1983 saying they're nuclear-free, but that seems to be an aspiration because in practice there's no change.

In France, the socialist government under François Mitterrand say they're anti-nuclear, but over time it becomes clear that's not the case.

According to this version, what really sets the Americans off is the sense of betrayal rather than the policy itself.

But either way, the end result was the same for Kit Bennett, who suddenly found himself at the end of this two-year programme that had lasted six years.

Kit Bennett says the breakup felt pretty brutal.

Susan Miller describes the Five Eyes relationship as a form of teamwork.

But she says the politicisation of intelligence under the Trump administration is now at a level that is going to cause issues for the rest of the team.

Yeah.

What would your advice be if you were in that room?

Susan Miller says she hopes New Zealand and the other Five Eyes partners will keep one eye on the long game.

And that seems to be what we're doing.

Because if we shut out America, we might be the ones who find ourselves in the cold.

Original music by Anthony Tonnen.

Graphic design by Oliver Wall.

For RNZ, sound production and final mix was by Mark Chesterman.

Production coordinator was Brianna Euretich-Greek.

Thanks to Steve Burridge, Ali Marsden, Jeremy Ansell and William Saunders.