John Ganz

So the whole thing is kind of a Christian apologetics.

For me, what he's describing there is not really being moved by religious sentiment.

It's kind of realizing

that the smart people that he wants to be in with are religious and then kind of changing his tune.

And he said, oh, well, you know, I want to impress Teal.

So I'm into Eric Girard.

And that's mimetic behavior like Girard describes.

You start to copy people because I think Teal is smart.

Therefore, what Teal pursues.

So I've always believed that J.D.

Vance is deeply wounded by the kind of

entry into America's elite that he had, which is that he's a bright guy.

He went to Yale, but he comes from this underprivileged background.

And I think he, like Richard Nixon before him, who was a bright guy, but really resented elites and their condescension towards him.

I think that he really has a chip on his shoulder about that.

I thought you said Bob Costas for a second.

One knock you could make on Girard in general and his approach to religion and a lot of conservatives' approach to religion, quite frankly, is that no doubt many of them are sincere, of course, but they usually relate to religion as some kind of social or psychological necessity.

And that's not quite the same as believing, right?

If you say, well, it's better for society if we do that, that's not quite saying I believe anything.

in the literal truth that, you know, of this religion and that, you know, God is communicating through its representatives, it's something much more utilitarian.