John Puls
Appearances
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
They had multiple of them, depending on the county. But absent from that, because that is certainly not the norm. It's not the norm in Florida. And I'm sure it's not the norm in most states. You know, what that looks like is I'll back up and say most prosecutors, while, of course, they're punishment and jail time minded, they ultimately want the cases off of their list. Right.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
One of my first jobs was my undergraduate was actually at South County Mental Health Center, which is a crisis stabilization unit. So I work with folks with really severe and persistent mental health issues, either psychotic disorders, having active suicidal or homicidal thoughts and gestures. And then so I started working with people in crisis, basically, and a lot of families in crisis.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
They want them settled. They want the pleas done. They certainly don't want to go to trial in any meaningful way. Again, this goes back to. Seriously advocating for your loved one, educating them, making sure that your loved one is under the care of some appropriate mental health professionals that can
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
write letters, provide reports, write something that would indicate, hey, this was related to having autism. This was related to a mental health disorder or a co-occurring substance use disorder. This is what we're doing to receive proper treatment and trying to negotiate a plea from there, which of course would involve, again, having a good attorney.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
First thing I'll mention is that, and again, most counties actually do have the ability, the county will actually pay a mitigation specialist. Families typically don't have to come out of pocket, but I think it's an underutilized resource that a lot of people don't even know that exists. They can try and mitigate the sentencing and explain to the judge why this happened, I think is valuable.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
In general, and this is from speaking with a lot of judges and working a lot of cases, one of the number one protective factors that judges look at in terms of, okay, if this person is released on probation, what is the likelihood that they're going to re-offend as they would use it in legal terms? One of the largest protective factors against that is family support. And that's it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
It's family support. Those without it are exponentially more likely to end up back in the criminal justice system. It's not to say that obviously, of course, it can happen even if they have family support. But it's important that the judge knows that family support is there. And so that can come from writing a personalized letter to a judge is what I often recommend that families do.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Explaining your history, explaining your ability and your availability and your willingness to support your loved one. What type of ancillary care and support you can provide, whether that be like a psychiatrist, whomever, really intimating strongly to that judge. Judge, I'm going to try to take care of my loved one to the best of my ability.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
I have the availability, the desire, the willingness to do it. and while simultaneously hopefully having somebody that can educate them on it. And you're right, it's where a legal system works, right? Judges have very far-reaching authority, and sometimes it's the luck of the draw of who ends up taking your case.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
just in general and keeping along the theme of what to do when your loved one is incarcerated or arrested. Because unfortunately, because of the way that our healthcare system is, that's what frequently happens. I think that a lot of families I speak to And I've done presentations for NAMI and related organizations.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
When the liberal is having a crisis, they're panicked and they assume law enforcement will come help them and take them to the hospital. What I always tell them is you don't get it unless you ask. And just because spoken to the 911 operator doesn't mean that's necessarily going to be translated to the responding officer.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
From that point, I worked in a residential dual diagnosis unit for addiction and mental health. And I was, again, working with a lot of families and people in crisis. And both times, I saw a really fractured system, both in the community mental health standpoint, which was nonprofit, state-funded, and then
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
What I recommend is that if you can step outside, speak to the officer first, explain that the person either needs to be hospitalized or whatever it may be to try and avoid an arrest.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And the other thing, and I meant to bring this up earlier too, is even before calling law enforcement, assuming it's not an acute crisis, check and see if your county has a local crisis team, like a mobile crisis team is what we call it in Palm Beach County. where they'll actually have a social worker or a therapist come out and respond. Every county and state is specific.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
So if your loved one is having these issues, find some local support groups, local autism support groups, caregiver support groups, NAMI support groups, so that those families and those parents can tell you specifically how they navigated it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
I always say this all the time, even though I'm a quote-unquote expert witness, the real experts are the family members in terms of navigating the legal system with their loved ones because they've experienced this. So get connected with other family members who have been through the same thing in different caregiver support groups.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
It really is. And I think that's another reason why if you do have that support of another family member or other family members in a local support group, that can make a world of a difference because when you're in the crisis, your adrenaline's pumping, you're having a hard time making decisions.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
If you can have a grounding force and somebody that's been through this before can help you navigate it, it really makes a world of a difference.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
even in what would be considered a nicer kind of for-profit addiction treatment facility, was still fraught with so many issues. And then I eventually went into private practice. And so now predominantly what I do is I work with people with more severe mental health issues, some of which are autistic.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And then I also consult with families in terms of trying to help them find placements and things like that. And then I have a small portion of my practice is actually doing forensic work as well with the legal system.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
First, I'll start with saying that I think the assumption is that social workers or clinical social workers don't do forensic work, and it's reserved for psychiatrists and psychologists. But I was pleased to know that's not the case. For me, what it looks like is that I testify and do assess for people meeting criteria for different types of involuntary commitment.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
So that could be under people being sectioned or in Florida, it's called like a Baker Act. And then also we have a unique law in Florida called the Marchman Act, which is actually involuntary treatment for substance use disorder, which is often co-occurring a lot of mental health issues. And then I also do what's called mitigation work.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Basically, if somebody is convicted of some type of crime, becomes involved in the criminal justice system, I can come in and do an assessment and testify and advocate for reduced sentencing based on this person's mental health, their trauma history, what they've gone through as a kid, their socioeconomic status.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
The list goes on, contributing factors that lead people to wind up in the criminal justice system. The last part of it that I do as well is, as I'm sure many families have experienced that have loved ones with mental illness and is that they wind up in inpatient units, subsequently receive subpar care and monitoring.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
So I'll come in and testify to standard of care for wrongful death cases involving mental health facilities and addiction treatment facilities.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
So, not easy. Although a lot of people don't understand it, what I found, and not to be too cynical, but what I found as far as the criminal justice system, various proceedings, is that not only do they not understand it, they're not really making an attempt to understand it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Part of what my role is in either mitigation work or working with people that have been involved in the criminal justice system is really psychoeducation. Like explaining that this is what this person was experiencing at the time. I'll give you a very quick example. This was several years ago.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Family wouldn't mind me bringing this up, but I had a patient that was in a mental health facility that was diagnosed with, I believe it was schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. And they were given the wrong medication, which is known to cause agitation to treat it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And they punched a staff member, which subsequently led to their arrest and then going to the county jail where they received no treatment, of course. And through a lot of tired advocacy from both their guardian and myself, we were able to transfer to a proper program. But I think all the criminal justice would see is, hey, this person assaulted someone.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
This person is a danger to the community, and they need to be withheld. But when in reality, they're just not being properly treated, and there's a lack of understanding.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And certainly, once you're to the point of being involved in the criminal justice system and you're incarcerated, either in jail or prison, some places are doing it a little better in terms of providing mental health care, but the care that they receive is completely inadequate, very inadequate.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Absolutely. No, that's a great point. And I think that law enforcement officers are often an easy target. Oh, well, the law enforcement did this, police did this, and they are in very difficult situations and they have seconds to act.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
I guess what I would respond to that as far as what we can do is look at some of what's already being done that I believe is effective, but it's done on a very small scale and it's kind of fractured and it's not widely adapted. In Palm Beach County, for example, we have what are called CIT officers, so crisis intervention trained officers.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
They receive specific training on how to address and work with somebody that is in severe mental distress or may have autism in order to properly de-escalate and handle it. And you can actually, in terms of calling 911, you can actually request for a CIT officer to respond. However, there's a limited amount. And depending on the situation, they may not be able to send somebody out.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
We also have something in different areas in South Florida called service population advocates. And so those are actually members of the police department. They're paid by the local municipality police department. They have a badge that says they're a part of the police department. But they're also licensed mental health counselors or licensed clinical social workers.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And they'll actually respond in lieu of a law enforcement officer. Now, that's effective, but it's done on a very small scale. What I would recommend is that there's one thing for like a specialized CIT trained officer to respond.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
It's a whole nother thing to have a fleet of officers that can receive some training at least and have some education because I have a neighbor who has something as autism and she has a lot of stickers on her car. That basically to inform anybody that could be approaching the car, police or whatever, that there is somebody with autism that's in the car and they may not respond appropriately.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
They may make certain gestures that seem threatening, but aren't. Right. Just some basic training like that, I think, would be really helpful for law enforcement.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Listen, it's really difficult. I happen to know a few just because of the space that I'm in. But if I have a kid who has autism or some other type of severe mental health issue and winds up in the criminal justice system, I may panic and just Google defense attorneys and just start calling. And then before you know it, I'm sending a $5,000 retainer and I'm hoping for the best.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And that person may not have any understanding of it or Certain folks won't be able to do that, and then they're left to the public defender.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And what I see often happen in that case is that the person ends up sitting in jail for a considerably long period of time because they're not able to be bonded out, and it's very cumbersome and time-consuming to get a mitigation specialist to come in and advocate for reduced sentencing if that's needed. So it's very difficult, but I think...
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Even though there's the imminent crisis, what I always try and tell families is to say, listen, yes, your loved one is in jail. This is terrible. But let's find some appropriate attorneys and legal representation. Grill them a little bit. Ask them, have you worked with clients who had autism before?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Have you worked with clients that had severe and persistent mental health issues that contributed to it? What is your experience? How many cases have you handled with that? And so often families are just like anxious, nervous, and just want to get it taken care of right away. But what I recommend is really asking those types of questions to make sure that you have somebody that's qualified for it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And it's not just the first person you find on Google.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
So I think what you're referring to is the time frame with first appearance. When somebody has their first appearance, it is very quick. Depending on the time of day that you get arrested, it could be hours. If you're arrested very late at night or even in the middle of the night, you could be at first appearance first thing that morning.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And in cases where there's no time, and again, I want to be careful that... This is going to be county specific and even state specific. But what I recommend is as opposed to rushing to hike, because again, that's a lot of money, right? Families often don't have unlimited resources.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
I usually just recommend if there's not any time to find private counsel, let them have their first appearance with the county public defender. Worst case scenario, you can later retain private counsel. And again, I want to be careful because I can tell you that's the best strategy in Palm Beach County, Florida. But that may not be elsewhere. But you're right. It's often an impossible situation.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And families are panicked. They're anxious. Their brain is in overdrive. And they're trying to help their kid. So it's a really difficult situation.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Sure, sure, absolutely. So I do a few different things. I'm a psychotherapist by trade, right? So I'm a licensed clinical social worker and master certified addiction professional. I really started working in the field, I would say in about 2013, originally as like a support staff or what we would call like a behavioral health technician and inpatient units. And then I went back to school.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Listen, we think that our local law enforcement has a difficult time understanding it. When we get to the point of the corrections officers within the county jail, again, this would be the more cynical part of me, but they don't understand it. They really don't have a desire to understand. They're just trying to knock out their shift and have it be as least chaotic as possible.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
Now you have somebody who may have autism, may have severe mental illness, and their behavior in the jail, because now it's exacerbated. They're increasingly stressed out. They're agitated. And they may end up getting additional charges just from being in jail, depending on how they act. And so what I usually recommend...
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
to families is that, again, mothers and fathers of people with autism and other mental health issues are the fiercest advocates I've ever seen. They've moved mountains in terms of policy change. What I always tell them is advocate Paul, try to inform them about medication. Sometimes, depending on the kind of jail, they'll have mental health units that they can be transferred to.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
and also get a qualified attorney in there as soon as possible. And after you found an appropriate one to try and like mitigate it. And the hard part is too is, and what I've seen so many families struggle with, and I don't know if you've heard this, is that sometimes families are concerned about bonding their loved one out because they're not sure they can properly manage the situation.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And they're concerned about them potentially committing, even though they're not doing it intentionally most of the time, but committing more crimes. after they're actually released. And I just had that from the other day.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
So it's so hard and depending on the situation, but basically what I usually tell them is fiercely advocate for your loved one and go to the jail in person, get the right attorney there to try and educate them on what's going on.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
And this is another circumstance where it's so state-specific. I was talking to a family member and a subsequent social worker from California. And this person had some severe mental health issues and was convicted of some crimes as a result of it. They had a social worker that was charged in managing and placing them in mental health care. That was part of the sentence, right?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System
But I couldn't believe it. I'm like, oh, yeah, we do this all the time in California. This is part of the deal. And I was like, wow, I wonder what it would be like if that was able to be replicated. So they actually had a mental health professional advocating for the person to receive proper treatment and care and educating the legal system. There was a full-time staff member.