John Scott-Railton

That fear, that technology of fear is a big part of it. And the fact that Pegasus doesn't respect national borders is a great way for autocrats to basically claw back power into states that they would otherwise have no ability to act in, right? It shouldn't be the case that an autocrat in Togo has dissidents in the UK afraid.

That fear, that technology of fear is a big part of it. And the fact that Pegasus doesn't respect national borders is a great way for autocrats to basically claw back power into states that they would otherwise have no ability to act in, right? It shouldn't be the case that an autocrat in Togo has dissidents in the UK afraid.

But that can be the case when you acquire this kind of technology because you can experience completely devastating consequences of speaking up against an autocrat or a dictator from around the world. That kind of stuff is just net dangerous to democracy and to freedom.

But that can be the case when you acquire this kind of technology because you can experience completely devastating consequences of speaking up against an autocrat or a dictator from around the world. That kind of stuff is just net dangerous to democracy and to freedom.

Well, on your perceived enemies, right? So we know from extradition documents, for example, like Panama's then president, Ricardo Martinelli, apparently got himself a bunch of Pegasus. Well, who did he put under monitoring? People like his business rivals, but also his mistress.

Well, on your perceived enemies, right? So we know from extradition documents, for example, like Panama's then president, Ricardo Martinelli, apparently got himself a bunch of Pegasus. Well, who did he put under monitoring? People like his business rivals, but also his mistress.

And every morning he would, according to these documents, sit and put his headphones on in his office and listen to the conversations and read the messages of people who he didn't like. That image of a president angry and jealous, prying into the lives of anybody who he felt like it, is a scary image to all of us. And it's scary because that's not part of the social contract, right? That's not...

And every morning he would, according to these documents, sit and put his headphones on in his office and listen to the conversations and read the messages of people who he didn't like. That image of a president angry and jealous, prying into the lives of anybody who he felt like it, is a scary image to all of us. And it's scary because that's not part of the social contract, right? That's not...

a power that government should have and any of the existing powers that government has in a you know society like the united states are circumscribed by law right i know my rights you can say at a traffic stop but with something like pegasus if you know your local police department has acquired um Pegasus and has used it against you, do you know your rights?

a power that government should have and any of the existing powers that government has in a you know society like the united states are circumscribed by law right i know my rights you can say at a traffic stop but with something like pegasus if you know your local police department has acquired um Pegasus and has used it against you, do you know your rights?

Do you know whether they were within their rights or authorities to use it? Do you know whether their use of it was properly overseen? What's happening is that this technology is landing in jurisdictions that don't yet have any legal protections around how this stuff gets used. Citizens have nothing to protect them.

Do you know whether they were within their rights or authorities to use it? Do you know whether their use of it was properly overseen? What's happening is that this technology is landing in jurisdictions that don't yet have any legal protections around how this stuff gets used. Citizens have nothing to protect them.

And that's really, really scary because you want there to be limits on the power of the state. Without those limits, you're existing in a tyrannical or autocratic regime.

And that's really, really scary because you want there to be limits on the power of the state. Without those limits, you're existing in a tyrannical or autocratic regime.

I see what you're saying. And companies should fight as hard as they can to prevent badly formed or wrong requests for this data. We'd be in a better universe if that stuff was not collected, but it is. That said, I think that something like Pegasus or Predator

I see what you're saying. And companies should fight as hard as they can to prevent badly formed or wrong requests for this data. We'd be in a better universe if that stuff was not collected, but it is. That said, I think that something like Pegasus or Predator

is actually even more invasive in some ways than what those apps have, in part because your phone really is, for most people at this point, it's just like nexus of your public and private brain.

is actually even more invasive in some ways than what those apps have, in part because your phone really is, for most people at this point, it's just like nexus of your public and private brain.

And what's really scary is the idea that governments could access this secretly without you ever having to know about it and without a warrant, without any kind of oversight, and without any kind of potential consequence or accountability if they abuse that power, if they get in there and they use it to hurt you.

And what's really scary is the idea that governments could access this secretly without you ever having to know about it and without a warrant, without any kind of oversight, and without any kind of potential consequence or accountability if they abuse that power, if they get in there and they use it to hurt you.