John Scott-Railton

And spyware merchants love the idea that there are just like all these terror plots and bad actors and the only thing you can do is Kiefer Sutherland it and just like hack them immediately, right? Forget the law, we need to get the bad guys. But the thing is, we know from recent and older history that if governments start being enabled to do that, Bad things inevitably follow.

And spyware merchants love the idea that there are just like all these terror plots and bad actors and the only thing you can do is Kiefer Sutherland it and just like hack them immediately, right? Forget the law, we need to get the bad guys. But the thing is, we know from recent and older history that if governments start being enabled to do that, Bad things inevitably follow.

Temptation to abuse it always follows. Some of the biggest problems that we have today in the United States around privacy come from the post-September 11th period, things like the Patriot Act, right? Hugely invasive stuff. But then the other question, and this is just like equally important, is does the society, does the governmental office that's receiving this data,

Temptation to abuse it always follows. Some of the biggest problems that we have today in the United States around privacy come from the post-September 11th period, things like the Patriot Act, right? Hugely invasive stuff. But then the other question, and this is just like equally important, is does the society, does the governmental office that's receiving this data,

have the mechanisms in place to prevent abuse if the people who happen to be holding this stuff in their hands are not good people. or it could be giving into the wrong temptations.

have the mechanisms in place to prevent abuse if the people who happen to be holding this stuff in their hands are not good people. or it could be giving into the wrong temptations.

Part of why it's important that we have laws and rule of law is that you want a person who's got some of the power of the state in their hands, whether it's a cop or an investigator or a prosecutor or a politician or whatever, they have to feel that there will be consequences if they misuse that power, and they have to know what the guardrails are around how they can use that power.

Part of why it's important that we have laws and rule of law is that you want a person who's got some of the power of the state in their hands, whether it's a cop or an investigator or a prosecutor or a politician or whatever, they have to feel that there will be consequences if they misuse that power, and they have to know what the guardrails are around how they can use that power.

One of the big problems with mercenary spyware is that it's arriving in jurisdictions that don't yet have any laws that say how police should or shouldn't or prosecutors should or shouldn't

One of the big problems with mercenary spyware is that it's arriving in jurisdictions that don't yet have any laws that say how police should or shouldn't or prosecutors should or shouldn't

use this technology in a situation like that the potential for abuse is huge in part because like what's going to be the consequence right people in authority might not even believe there would be any consequence if they abuse the technology that's part of why people like me feel that it's so important to slow the proliferation down because the faster this stuff arrives at jurisdictions that don't have any laws around this the more likely you are to see abuse

use this technology in a situation like that the potential for abuse is huge in part because like what's going to be the consequence right people in authority might not even believe there would be any consequence if they abuse the technology that's part of why people like me feel that it's so important to slow the proliferation down because the faster this stuff arrives at jurisdictions that don't have any laws around this the more likely you are to see abuse

I think, unfortunately, we're stuck with the existence of this technology. But slowing down the rate of proliferation is, I think, the best approach we have to limiting the global harm that it's going to cause.

I think, unfortunately, we're stuck with the existence of this technology. But slowing down the rate of proliferation is, I think, the best approach we have to limiting the global harm that it's going to cause.

And it is my firm belief that as more and more governments pay attention, they will recognize that a totally uncontrolled, a digital Mogadishu of spyware, where everybody is using this stuff all the time, is a really bad outcome for most governments. And that you will need a degree of protection.

And it is my firm belief that as more and more governments pay attention, they will recognize that a totally uncontrolled, a digital Mogadishu of spyware, where everybody is using this stuff all the time, is a really bad outcome for most governments. And that you will need a degree of protection.

The problem is that willingness to act is, I think, unfortunately contingent on a lot of governments feeling the sting first. I don't think it's an accident that a large number of U.S. government personnel had to get hacked with Pegasus spyware before the U.S. took really decisive action.

The problem is that willingness to act is, I think, unfortunately contingent on a lot of governments feeling the sting first. I don't think it's an accident that a large number of U.S. government personnel had to get hacked with Pegasus spyware before the U.S. took really decisive action.