John Siracusa

Like here is, it's like when you make a console game, like in the end of a console generation versus the beginning, by the end, they figured out every little trick of that console to get the most performance out of it. And they never could have made that thing at the beginning anyway. Uh, yeah. Kudos to them for doing it. And, um, these papers that were about these innovations, uh,

Like here is, it's like when you make a console game, like in the end of a console generation versus the beginning, by the end, they figured out every little trick of that console to get the most performance out of it. And they never could have made that thing at the beginning anyway. Uh, yeah. Kudos to them for doing it. And, um, these papers that were about these innovations, uh,

Anyone can see these papers. OpenAI can get these papers, can read them. People can see what they did. People can do the same thing. It's all out in the open. There's no secrets here. As Casey noted before, the R1 model that we have still haven't even talked about yet, that's MIT licensed. The weights are open source. So you can just grab these and pull them and you don't have to license them.

Anyone can see these papers. OpenAI can get these papers, can read them. People can see what they did. People can do the same thing. It's all out in the open. There's no secrets here. As Casey noted before, the R1 model that we have still haven't even talked about yet, that's MIT licensed. The weights are open source. So you can just grab these and pull them and you don't have to license them.

Like it's MIT licensed. You can do anything you want with it. You can integrate it into your product or whatever. Very, very open.

Like it's MIT licensed. You can do anything you want with it. You can integrate it into your product or whatever. Very, very open.

Yeah. Now, on that front, there's been some stories of people saying, hey, I was using deep seek and I was trying various things to type into the different prompts in the chat thing. And one of the responses I got was like, I'm sorry, I can't do that because OpenAI something like it referred to itself as OpenAI, like the deep seek model did.

Yeah. Now, on that front, there's been some stories of people saying, hey, I was using deep seek and I was trying various things to type into the different prompts in the chat thing. And one of the responses I got was like, I'm sorry, I can't do that because OpenAI something like it referred to itself as OpenAI, like the deep seek model did.

It's kind of like when like the open AI model starts spitting back like direct quotes from New York times and stuff. When deep seek starts saying as an open AI model, I can't X, Y, and Z. It makes you think that perhaps deep seek was trained using open AI models. Right.

It's kind of like when like the open AI model starts spitting back like direct quotes from New York times and stuff. When deep seek starts saying as an open AI model, I can't X, Y, and Z. It makes you think that perhaps deep seek was trained using open AI models. Right.

And that's, as Ben says here, it's just assumed that everybody is doing this because, you know, doing this, having models train other models has been a practice for a while now. And why would deep seek not do it? But how does open AI feel about that?

And that's, as Ben says here, it's just assumed that everybody is doing this because, you know, doing this, having models train other models has been a practice for a while now. And why would deep seek not do it? But how does open AI feel about that?

Well, I mean, so here's the thing. We'll put a link in the show notes to this 404 Media story that had a good headline, which is OpenAI furious that DeepSeek might have stolen all the data OpenAI stole from us. So it's like OpenAI's argument is like, well, we've talked about this many times in past episodes. Well, we're not really stealing the data.

Well, I mean, so here's the thing. We'll put a link in the show notes to this 404 Media story that had a good headline, which is OpenAI furious that DeepSeek might have stolen all the data OpenAI stole from us. So it's like OpenAI's argument is like, well, we've talked about this many times in past episodes. Well, we're not really stealing the data.

We're using it to train our models and it's a different thing and it's transformative and blah, blah, blah. And I feel like if OpenAI really believes that and it's not just a bunch of BS,

We're using it to train our models and it's a different thing and it's transformative and blah, blah, blah. And I feel like if OpenAI really believes that and it's not just a bunch of BS,

when another model uses your model to train their model they say well we're not stealing your data we're just using it to train a model and blah it's like exactly the same argument right and i you know as we've discussed who knows how solid that argument is and how it will turn out but it really is very directly like they're just using it to train a model they're not stealing your data when they train a model with your data it's transformative they don't need your permission to get it but open the eyes like no totally it's in our terms of service you have to it's

when another model uses your model to train their model they say well we're not stealing your data we're just using it to train a model and blah it's like exactly the same argument right and i you know as we've discussed who knows how solid that argument is and how it will turn out but it really is very directly like they're just using it to train a model they're not stealing your data when they train a model with your data it's transformative they don't need your permission to get it but open the eyes like no totally it's in our terms of service you have to it's

So they don't really have a leg to stand on here. It's like, look, it's either it's not okay for both of you to do it or it's okay for both of you to do it. And I'm sure the lawyers say, well, our terms of service say otherwise. But just like setting aside the law in terms of service and crossing international boundaries with a U.S.

So they don't really have a leg to stand on here. It's like, look, it's either it's not okay for both of you to do it or it's okay for both of you to do it. And I'm sure the lawyers say, well, our terms of service say otherwise. But just like setting aside the law in terms of service and crossing international boundaries with a U.S.