John Wardle

And I like the fact that we're doing both.

I think it's really important.

What I think is interesting is the first part of what you just said there, Kevin, when you talk about clients demanding all of the images and things, probably what I do for a little bit of lament is...

Previously when you couldn't do all these things, a client had to have this bridge of trust and an architect would show some fairly frail small drawings, build a modest card model and trust us.

And the delight at the end of it would be, wow, I had no real idea what I was getting but this is amazing.

And I think it's a pity.

I mean I think in some ways clients are shortchanging themselves with this demand to see all early, particularly in the process of commissioning architects.

The fact that the...

When I started the practice, the only competitions were a Parliament House or a Stockman's Hall of Fame or something like that, two a year.

Now, everything's a competition.

And I did joke recently at a symposium I spoke on about competitions.

You've got a very thorny subject here.

I did say we've got a golden rule.

We never enter a competition for a family home, which we've broken three times with 100% failure.

Yeah.

And that's interesting because we're, I think, a very fine firm that do really great houses, but we can't seem to win if somebody wants to sit all up the front because ours are a slow, steady, get-to-know-you.

Many of the stories come out of them and who they are and the sorts of things they're talking about.

Which is why you do it.

It draws into this wonderful, complex coalition we have.

And to want to do that right at the start and use that as a means of judging which architectural practice you'll use for the...