Jon Lovett
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
Yeah, lesbians know what penises look like. We know what they look like. That's partly the way you figure out you're a lesbian.
Yeah, lesbians know what penises look like. We know what they look like. That's partly the way you figure out you're a lesbian.
Yeah, lesbians know what penises look like. We know what they look like. That's partly the way you figure out you're a lesbian.
Yes. You know, dipping your pigtails in ink, for sure.
Yes. You know, dipping your pigtails in ink, for sure.
Yes. You know, dipping your pigtails in ink, for sure.
Oh, of course. Of course. They're trying to divide the T off from the LGB. That's what they've done.
Oh, of course. Of course. They're trying to divide the T off from the LGB. That's what they've done.
Oh, of course. Of course. They're trying to divide the T off from the LGB. That's what they've done.
I don't think they know what the Q is. They certainly don't know what the IA is. They're not into any of these letters, but they're mostly focused on trying to, they want the T off of the flag. And we have to keep the T on the flag.
I don't think they know what the Q is. They certainly don't know what the IA is. They're not into any of these letters, but they're mostly focused on trying to, they want the T off of the flag. And we have to keep the T on the flag.
I don't think they know what the Q is. They certainly don't know what the IA is. They're not into any of these letters, but they're mostly focused on trying to, they want the T off of the flag. And we have to keep the T on the flag.
Yeah, that's what it seems like.
Yeah, that's what it seems like.
Yeah, that's what it seems like.
Well, the reason I know about it is because she called you a bitchy lesbian or whatever she said. I mean, that's the whole purpose. There's a cycle to this, right? She picks these fights. It generates a page six story. It gets attention. Who do you beef with? Who beefs at you from the right? Well, John got in a fight with J.D. Vance on Twitter.
Well, the reason I know about it is because she called you a bitchy lesbian or whatever she said. I mean, that's the whole purpose. There's a cycle to this, right? She picks these fights. It generates a page six story. It gets attention. Who do you beef with? Who beefs at you from the right? Well, John got in a fight with J.D. Vance on Twitter.
Well, the reason I know about it is because she called you a bitchy lesbian or whatever she said. I mean, that's the whole purpose. There's a cycle to this, right? She picks these fights. It generates a page six story. It gets attention. Who do you beef with? Who beefs at you from the right? Well, John got in a fight with J.D. Vance on Twitter.
Which it's just incredible that the vice president- Explain that for the people, what it was about. It was about the fact that the Trump administration is, I don't even want to call it deporting. It is kidnapping people and dispatching them to a- Gulag in El Salvador and we have increasing evidence that they're making mistakes as they do this.
Which it's just incredible that the vice president- Explain that for the people, what it was about. It was about the fact that the Trump administration is, I don't even want to call it deporting. It is kidnapping people and dispatching them to a- Gulag in El Salvador and we have increasing evidence that they're making mistakes as they do this.
Which it's just incredible that the vice president- Explain that for the people, what it was about. It was about the fact that the Trump administration is, I don't even want to call it deporting. It is kidnapping people and dispatching them to a- Gulag in El Salvador and we have increasing evidence that they're making mistakes as they do this.
And now the administration is claiming once you've been sent to this mega prison in El Salvador, they don't they don't have the ability to bring you back. So no mistakes. So there's no due process to catch mistakes in advance and no way to rectify mistakes once they've happened, which is obviously wrong, even if you are getting it right. But now we see that they are getting it wrong.
And now the administration is claiming once you've been sent to this mega prison in El Salvador, they don't they don't have the ability to bring you back. So no mistakes. So there's no due process to catch mistakes in advance and no way to rectify mistakes once they've happened, which is obviously wrong, even if you are getting it right. But now we see that they are getting it wrong.
And now the administration is claiming once you've been sent to this mega prison in El Salvador, they don't they don't have the ability to bring you back. So no mistakes. So there's no due process to catch mistakes in advance and no way to rectify mistakes once they've happened, which is obviously wrong, even if you are getting it right. But now we see that they are getting it wrong.
And Vance was defensive and dissembling and lying about what the record said about one example of this.
And Vance was defensive and dissembling and lying about what the record said about one example of this.
And Vance was defensive and dissembling and lying about what the record said about one example of this.
Well, we have no idea other than there is no evidence for it, right? And the evidence, there's no... Which you want. Well, of course, there's certainly, yes. They have provided no evidence that this person was in MS-13. Vance claimed he was convicted. As far as we could tell, this person has never... been convicted in the US of a crime, right? And the evidence he cited wasn't there.
Well, we have no idea other than there is no evidence for it, right? And the evidence, there's no... Which you want. Well, of course, there's certainly, yes. They have provided no evidence that this person was in MS-13. Vance claimed he was convicted. As far as we could tell, this person has never... been convicted in the US of a crime, right? And the evidence he cited wasn't there.
Well, we have no idea other than there is no evidence for it, right? And the evidence, there's no... Which you want. Well, of course, there's certainly, yes. They have provided no evidence that this person was in MS-13. Vance claimed he was convicted. As far as we could tell, this person has never... been convicted in the US of a crime, right? And the evidence he cited wasn't there.
Similarly, we have this for other examples of people that seem to have been rounded up because they had tattoos that rubbed an ICE officer the wrong way, including a tattoo for autism awareness.
Similarly, we have this for other examples of people that seem to have been rounded up because they had tattoos that rubbed an ICE officer the wrong way, including a tattoo for autism awareness.
Similarly, we have this for other examples of people that seem to have been rounded up because they had tattoos that rubbed an ICE officer the wrong way, including a tattoo for autism awareness.
No, the gay barber had a crown that said mom and a crown that said dad.
No, the gay barber had a crown that said mom and a crown that said dad.
No, the gay barber had a crown that said mom and a crown that said dad.
It's evil.
It's evil.
It's evil.
So I think, first of all, we should dispense with the idea that this is because the 130-day window is up. Because as we all know, Trump has nothing but respect for arcane rules governing when people can and cannot serve. So that's ridiculous.
So I think, first of all, we should dispense with the idea that this is because the 130-day window is up. Because as we all know, Trump has nothing but respect for arcane rules governing when people can and cannot serve. So that's ridiculous.
So I think, first of all, we should dispense with the idea that this is because the 130-day window is up. Because as we all know, Trump has nothing but respect for arcane rules governing when people can and cannot serve. So that's ridiculous.
I think it is probably too pat and too convenient for all of us that have found the way that Elon Musk has sort of rampaged through the government to be obviously disgraceful, but also politically unpalatable to say, look, we'll talk about Wisconsin, but he's deeply unpopular. Doge is bringing negative attention to Trump. Trump put Elon out there as a shield. He took all of these hits.
I think it is probably too pat and too convenient for all of us that have found the way that Elon Musk has sort of rampaged through the government to be obviously disgraceful, but also politically unpalatable to say, look, we'll talk about Wisconsin, but he's deeply unpopular. Doge is bringing negative attention to Trump. Trump put Elon out there as a shield. He took all of these hits.
I think it is probably too pat and too convenient for all of us that have found the way that Elon Musk has sort of rampaged through the government to be obviously disgraceful, but also politically unpalatable to say, look, we'll talk about Wisconsin, but he's deeply unpopular. Doge is bringing negative attention to Trump. Trump put Elon out there as a shield. He took all of these hits.
And now because he's unpopular, Trump's moving him aside. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to say this was always basically the plan, that he was going to come for a few months, get this thing rolling, and then step back. That said, Elon Musk has drawn so much negative attention to what could have been a far more boring
And now because he's unpopular, Trump's moving him aside. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to say this was always basically the plan, that he was going to come for a few months, get this thing rolling, and then step back. That said, Elon Musk has drawn so much negative attention to what could have been a far more boring
And now because he's unpopular, Trump's moving him aside. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to say this was always basically the plan, that he was going to come for a few months, get this thing rolling, and then step back. That said, Elon Musk has drawn so much negative attention to what could have been a far more boring
endeavor, that he has brought so much negative attention to the kinds of cuts that they might have wanted to make, but probably not with this much fanfare and probably without this much chaos. What is unclear is, A...
endeavor, that he has brought so much negative attention to the kinds of cuts that they might have wanted to make, but probably not with this much fanfare and probably without this much chaos. What is unclear is, A...
endeavor, that he has brought so much negative attention to the kinds of cuts that they might have wanted to make, but probably not with this much fanfare and probably without this much chaos. What is unclear is, A...
how much of this can go on without Elon as this singular aggressive figure, and B, how much of what he's already done is so damaging and so complete that really they've gotten what they wanted to get out of Doge and now they can move on. Right, which is to break everything. Which is break everything, fire everybody.
how much of this can go on without Elon as this singular aggressive figure, and B, how much of what he's already done is so damaging and so complete that really they've gotten what they wanted to get out of Doge and now they can move on. Right, which is to break everything. Which is break everything, fire everybody.
how much of this can go on without Elon as this singular aggressive figure, and B, how much of what he's already done is so damaging and so complete that really they've gotten what they wanted to get out of Doge and now they can move on. Right, which is to break everything. Which is break everything, fire everybody.
I have a friend at the VA and he was talking about how, yeah, the surgeries are continuing, But a bunch of people lost their access to the computer system because they were fired and then unfired, but they haven't gotten it back. So they're not really able to work. Right. Like a lot of the chaos, it leaves the headlines, but it's ongoing. Right.
I have a friend at the VA and he was talking about how, yeah, the surgeries are continuing, But a bunch of people lost their access to the computer system because they were fired and then unfired, but they haven't gotten it back. So they're not really able to work. Right. Like a lot of the chaos, it leaves the headlines, but it's ongoing. Right.
I have a friend at the VA and he was talking about how, yeah, the surgeries are continuing, But a bunch of people lost their access to the computer system because they were fired and then unfired, but they haven't gotten it back. So they're not really able to work. Right. Like a lot of the chaos, it leaves the headlines, but it's ongoing. Right.
These agencies have been hobbled in ways that we know about in a lot of ways that we don't know about. So, yeah. It doesn't surprise me that he'd be stepping back. And I also, you know, Trump can't possibly be enjoying how much blowback this is getting and how much is coming on to him.
These agencies have been hobbled in ways that we know about in a lot of ways that we don't know about. So, yeah. It doesn't surprise me that he'd be stepping back. And I also, you know, Trump can't possibly be enjoying how much blowback this is getting and how much is coming on to him.
These agencies have been hobbled in ways that we know about in a lot of ways that we don't know about. So, yeah. It doesn't surprise me that he'd be stepping back. And I also, you know, Trump can't possibly be enjoying how much blowback this is getting and how much is coming on to him.
Oh, it's a very good thing that he lost. He got nothing for that money. They lost the other statewide races as well. I was in Wisconsin in the run-up, and I didn't went knocking on doors. And obviously that's anecdotal, but we talked to, went to 150 doors and Elon had made himself the main character. It was what's on people's minds.
Oh, it's a very good thing that he lost. He got nothing for that money. They lost the other statewide races as well. I was in Wisconsin in the run-up, and I didn't went knocking on doors. And obviously that's anecdotal, but we talked to, went to 150 doors and Elon had made himself the main character. It was what's on people's minds.
Oh, it's a very good thing that he lost. He got nothing for that money. They lost the other statewide races as well. I was in Wisconsin in the run-up, and I didn't went knocking on doors. And obviously that's anecdotal, but we talked to, went to 150 doors and Elon had made himself the main character. It was what's on people's minds.
One example, we were just walking down the street and someone in the neighborhood was like, well, what are you guys, what are you knocking on doors for? And we said, oh, we're trying to make sure everybody gets out to vote for Susan Crawford. And they said, can you believe what's going on with Elon? They're setting the Tesla's on fire.
One example, we were just walking down the street and someone in the neighborhood was like, well, what are you guys, what are you knocking on doors for? And we said, oh, we're trying to make sure everybody gets out to vote for Susan Crawford. And they said, can you believe what's going on with Elon? They're setting the Tesla's on fire.
One example, we were just walking down the street and someone in the neighborhood was like, well, what are you guys, what are you knocking on doors for? And we said, oh, we're trying to make sure everybody gets out to vote for Susan Crawford. And they said, can you believe what's going on with Elon? They're setting the Tesla's on fire.
He's spending 25 million, we're spending millions of dollars in the state. And I think it again, like I would love to say. that, oh, Elon, this is proof that Elon Musk is political poison. I don't know that. I think what you can say is that in this environment, and this is very good news, no amount of money can overcome the political fundamentals.
He's spending 25 million, we're spending millions of dollars in the state. And I think it again, like I would love to say. that, oh, Elon, this is proof that Elon Musk is political poison. I don't know that. I think what you can say is that in this environment, and this is very good news, no amount of money can overcome the political fundamentals.
He's spending 25 million, we're spending millions of dollars in the state. And I think it again, like I would love to say. that, oh, Elon, this is proof that Elon Musk is political poison. I don't know that. I think what you can say is that in this environment, and this is very good news, no amount of money can overcome the political fundamentals.
And Elon Musk is not a persuasive figure to the kinds of voters that Republicans need. And so- The independence. Yeah, he seems to be- The independence.
And Elon Musk is not a persuasive figure to the kinds of voters that Republicans need. And so- The independence. Yeah, he seems to be- The independence.
And Elon Musk is not a persuasive figure to the kinds of voters that Republicans need. And so- The independence. Yeah, he seems to be- The independence.
He is. He's toxic.
He is. He's toxic.
He is. He's toxic.
Look, I think there's the... The obvious answer, which he has a terrible personality. So we're getting to know him more, meaning. And he's abusing his wealth without respect for our democracy. And I don't mean even, you know, look, he puts out this announcement saying basically he's going to buy votes in Wisconsin. It's based a lot of blowback. He's accused of committing crimes.
Look, I think there's the... The obvious answer, which he has a terrible personality. So we're getting to know him more, meaning. And he's abusing his wealth without respect for our democracy. And I don't mean even, you know, look, he puts out this announcement saying basically he's going to buy votes in Wisconsin. It's based a lot of blowback. He's accused of committing crimes.
Look, I think there's the... The obvious answer, which he has a terrible personality. So we're getting to know him more, meaning. And he's abusing his wealth without respect for our democracy. And I don't mean even, you know, look, he puts out this announcement saying basically he's going to buy votes in Wisconsin. It's based a lot of blowback. He's accused of committing crimes.
He changes the language on it so that it's more legally permissible. So he's no longer giving you money for votes. He's giving you money for signing a petition, whatever it may be. But fundamentally, he's flying in to Wisconsin on a private jet to throw money down in front of the populace, like a grand vizier visiting the colonies.
He changes the language on it so that it's more legally permissible. So he's no longer giving you money for votes. He's giving you money for signing a petition, whatever it may be. But fundamentally, he's flying in to Wisconsin on a private jet to throw money down in front of the populace, like a grand vizier visiting the colonies.
He changes the language on it so that it's more legally permissible. So he's no longer giving you money for votes. He's giving you money for signing a petition, whatever it may be. But fundamentally, he's flying in to Wisconsin on a private jet to throw money down in front of the populace, like a grand vizier visiting the colonies.
And he is cutting in this chaotic and destructive way parts of the government. They may be the parts where they view it as the weakest for Democrats to defend, places like USAID, but they're also shuttering Social Security offices. They're coming after Medicaid. It's a small, I don't believe most people are seeing this, but I do think it's important
And he is cutting in this chaotic and destructive way parts of the government. They may be the parts where they view it as the weakest for Democrats to defend, places like USAID, but they're also shuttering Social Security offices. They're coming after Medicaid. It's a small, I don't believe most people are seeing this, but I do think it's important
And he is cutting in this chaotic and destructive way parts of the government. They may be the parts where they view it as the weakest for Democrats to defend, places like USAID, but they're also shuttering Social Security offices. They're coming after Medicaid. It's a small, I don't believe most people are seeing this, but I do think it's important
that this figure who has taken on this vast amount of power, basically bought his way into this role, does it with so little respect for the tens of millions of people that are skeptical of him or don't like him. That if somebody is protesting him, they're Soros backed. Democrats oppose him only because they are evil and they want to send social security checks to undocumented.
that this figure who has taken on this vast amount of power, basically bought his way into this role, does it with so little respect for the tens of millions of people that are skeptical of him or don't like him. That if somebody is protesting him, they're Soros backed. Democrats oppose him only because they are evil and they want to send social security checks to undocumented.
that this figure who has taken on this vast amount of power, basically bought his way into this role, does it with so little respect for the tens of millions of people that are skeptical of him or don't like him. That if somebody is protesting him, they're Soros backed. Democrats oppose him only because they are evil and they want to send social security checks to undocumented.
immigrants, that when people are critical of Doge, he claims, oh, it is because they're not being specific. Have you noticed they don't offer any specifics? They offer, there has been, there's never been more valid, specific, clear, focused criticism.
immigrants, that when people are critical of Doge, he claims, oh, it is because they're not being specific. Have you noticed they don't offer any specifics? They offer, there has been, there's never been more valid, specific, clear, focused criticism.
immigrants, that when people are critical of Doge, he claims, oh, it is because they're not being specific. Have you noticed they don't offer any specifics? They offer, there has been, there's never been more valid, specific, clear, focused criticism.
Are you kidding me? You are cutting billions across or claiming to cut billions across this government. We are pointing to specific container ships. holding specific amounts of food to get you to release it. So there's a total lack of respect for anyone who is not MAGA, right?
Are you kidding me? You are cutting billions across or claiming to cut billions across this government. We are pointing to specific container ships. holding specific amounts of food to get you to release it. So there's a total lack of respect for anyone who is not MAGA, right?
Are you kidding me? You are cutting billions across or claiming to cut billions across this government. We are pointing to specific container ships. holding specific amounts of food to get you to release it. So there's a total lack of respect for anyone who is not MAGA, right?
So he is basically, he's not acting democratically in any way that a person would. You can imagine a version of this whole process unfolding where he says, you know what? I'm going to all these agencies. I'm going to listen to some of the people there. And I'm going to go to the heads of these various departments. And I'm going to say, oh, you have three months.
So he is basically, he's not acting democratically in any way that a person would. You can imagine a version of this whole process unfolding where he says, you know what? I'm going to all these agencies. I'm going to listen to some of the people there. And I'm going to go to the heads of these various departments. And I'm going to say, oh, you have three months.
So he is basically, he's not acting democratically in any way that a person would. You can imagine a version of this whole process unfolding where he says, you know what? I'm going to all these agencies. I'm going to listen to some of the people there. And I'm going to go to the heads of these various departments. And I'm going to say, oh, you have three months.
two months, three weeks to give me cuts. And these are the amount of cuts you have to give me. And if you don't give me this amount of cuts, I'm gonna do it for you." And you can imagine him engaging with people on the actual substance of these criticisms, but he can't do that. He has no aptitude or willingness to do that.
two months, three weeks to give me cuts. And these are the amount of cuts you have to give me. And if you don't give me this amount of cuts, I'm gonna do it for you." And you can imagine him engaging with people on the actual substance of these criticisms, but he can't do that. He has no aptitude or willingness to do that.
two months, three weeks to give me cuts. And these are the amount of cuts you have to give me. And if you don't give me this amount of cuts, I'm gonna do it for you." And you can imagine him engaging with people on the actual substance of these criticisms, but he can't do that. He has no aptitude or willingness to do that.
And we don't know with Elon, when he goes in front of a crowd and says, this is a grand scheme, to bring in immigrants to turn them into voters. We don't know if he believes that or if he just believes that's an advantageous argument to make in front of the people for whom he has no respect.
And we don't know with Elon, when he goes in front of a crowd and says, this is a grand scheme, to bring in immigrants to turn them into voters. We don't know if he believes that or if he just believes that's an advantageous argument to make in front of the people for whom he has no respect.
And we don't know with Elon, when he goes in front of a crowd and says, this is a grand scheme, to bring in immigrants to turn them into voters. We don't know if he believes that or if he just believes that's an advantageous argument to make in front of the people for whom he has no respect.
I will just, can I just, I will say though, I do think the most important, like just stepping back from his sort of repellent qualities.
I will just, can I just, I will say though, I do think the most important, like just stepping back from his sort of repellent qualities.
I will just, can I just, I will say though, I do think the most important, like just stepping back from his sort of repellent qualities.
Very good word. Here's what I think we've learned. And I think this is what's most important, even if you don't. For Democrats. For Democrats and Republicans, even if you can't totally, you can't tease the, you know, the correlation from the causation. Yeah. We learned that $25 million in Wisconsin did not change the outcome of these races, and Crawford overperformed against other statewide races.
Very good word. Here's what I think we've learned. And I think this is what's most important, even if you don't. For Democrats. For Democrats and Republicans, even if you can't totally, you can't tease the, you know, the correlation from the causation. Yeah. We learned that $25 million in Wisconsin did not change the outcome of these races, and Crawford overperformed against other statewide races.
Very good word. Here's what I think we've learned. And I think this is what's most important, even if you don't. For Democrats. For Democrats and Republicans, even if you can't totally, you can't tease the, you know, the correlation from the causation. Yeah. We learned that $25 million in Wisconsin did not change the outcome of these races, and Crawford overperformed against other statewide races.
And then we learned in Florida, in these special House races, that Democrats overperformed by roughly whatever, 15 to 17 points. And what does that tell you? It tells you that there are a bunch of vulnerable Republicans
And then we learned in Florida, in these special House races, that Democrats overperformed by roughly whatever, 15 to 17 points. And what does that tell you? It tells you that there are a bunch of vulnerable Republicans
And then we learned in Florida, in these special House races, that Democrats overperformed by roughly whatever, 15 to 17 points. And what does that tell you? It tells you that there are a bunch of vulnerable Republicans
whose margins of victory were well below 15 points, who are looking at this and saying, hold on, I have a deeply controversial vote coming my way for reconciliation that involves tax cuts for the wealthy and Medicaid cuts. Elon's money cannot protect me from the general. So is it now the choice? Do I side with Elon, prevent a primary, and hope his money protects me in the fall?
whose margins of victory were well below 15 points, who are looking at this and saying, hold on, I have a deeply controversial vote coming my way for reconciliation that involves tax cuts for the wealthy and Medicaid cuts. Elon's money cannot protect me from the general. So is it now the choice? Do I side with Elon, prevent a primary, and hope his money protects me in the fall?
whose margins of victory were well below 15 points, who are looking at this and saying, hold on, I have a deeply controversial vote coming my way for reconciliation that involves tax cuts for the wealthy and Medicaid cuts. Elon's money cannot protect me from the general. So is it now the choice? Do I side with Elon, prevent a primary, and hope his money protects me in the fall?
Or do I side with my constituents, brace for a primary, get through it, and hope my voters reward me for not going along with the Trump agenda? That choice just got a lot harder for some of these Republicans.
Or do I side with my constituents, brace for a primary, get through it, and hope my voters reward me for not going along with the Trump agenda? That choice just got a lot harder for some of these Republicans.
Or do I side with my constituents, brace for a primary, get through it, and hope my voters reward me for not going along with the Trump agenda? That choice just got a lot harder for some of these Republicans.
Yeah, it's a good stunt. I thought it was a good idea. I was glad he was doing it. I'm glad to see when anybody is basically trying things to try to grab attention in this chaotic media environment. But I was like blown away by the number of people watching it, the amount of clips that were circulating because of it. And it just speaks to the fact that there is a huge hunger
Yeah, it's a good stunt. I thought it was a good idea. I was glad he was doing it. I'm glad to see when anybody is basically trying things to try to grab attention in this chaotic media environment. But I was like blown away by the number of people watching it, the amount of clips that were circulating because of it. And it just speaks to the fact that there is a huge hunger
Yeah, it's a good stunt. I thought it was a good idea. I was glad he was doing it. I'm glad to see when anybody is basically trying things to try to grab attention in this chaotic media environment. But I was like blown away by the number of people watching it, the amount of clips that were circulating because of it. And it just speaks to the fact that there is a huge hunger
among the majority of the country that does not support Donald Trump, that are looking for people who are going to fight, that just are going to respond to the moment, to the scale of what we're facing with a sense that this is a different time and we're going to need to treat this differently. And we can't just go along with business as usual, that you can't
among the majority of the country that does not support Donald Trump, that are looking for people who are going to fight, that just are going to respond to the moment, to the scale of what we're facing with a sense that this is a different time and we're going to need to treat this differently. And we can't just go along with business as usual, that you can't
among the majority of the country that does not support Donald Trump, that are looking for people who are going to fight, that just are going to respond to the moment, to the scale of what we're facing with a sense that this is a different time and we're going to need to treat this differently. And we can't just go along with business as usual, that you can't
The plan can't be to vote for the continuing resolution and then go on your book tour. That's just not the world we're living in. This is a dangerous moment and you want to see leaders that reflect that. Look, it is a stunt because ultimately it doesn't have any impact. It does draw people's eye to what is happening in our political system.
The plan can't be to vote for the continuing resolution and then go on your book tour. That's just not the world we're living in. This is a dangerous moment and you want to see leaders that reflect that. Look, it is a stunt because ultimately it doesn't have any impact. It does draw people's eye to what is happening in our political system.
The plan can't be to vote for the continuing resolution and then go on your book tour. That's just not the world we're living in. This is a dangerous moment and you want to see leaders that reflect that. Look, it is a stunt because ultimately it doesn't have any impact. It does draw people's eye to what is happening in our political system.
And he is doing something that required him to sacrifice and to go through like some, sounds like a fair amount of pain, and good for him for doing that. And I think a lot of people will see moments from it, see his passion in it, hear some of the different arguments he was making. I thought he did a great job talking about Social Security and Medicaid.
And he is doing something that required him to sacrifice and to go through like some, sounds like a fair amount of pain, and good for him for doing that. And I think a lot of people will see moments from it, see his passion in it, hear some of the different arguments he was making. I thought he did a great job talking about Social Security and Medicaid.
And he is doing something that required him to sacrifice and to go through like some, sounds like a fair amount of pain, and good for him for doing that. And I think a lot of people will see moments from it, see his passion in it, hear some of the different arguments he was making. I thought he did a great job talking about Social Security and Medicaid.
And, you know, look, I think a lot of times, you know, Democrats are skittish about how to thread the needle, because on the one hand, They they view Trump as an existential threat to democracy. But in the other, they hear from the consultants and the polls and genuinely believe that where their best argument is day to day is on the ways Trump is going after democracy.
And, you know, look, I think a lot of times, you know, Democrats are skittish about how to thread the needle, because on the one hand, They they view Trump as an existential threat to democracy. But in the other, they hear from the consultants and the polls and genuinely believe that where their best argument is day to day is on the ways Trump is going after democracy.
And, you know, look, I think a lot of times, you know, Democrats are skittish about how to thread the needle, because on the one hand, They they view Trump as an existential threat to democracy. But in the other, they hear from the consultants and the polls and genuinely believe that where their best argument is day to day is on the ways Trump is going after democracy.
Social Security, Medicaid, healthcare, the basics, the services and programs people rely on. And I thought he did a really great job of articulating both of those arguments, specifically around, look at all the chaos, look at all the destruction he's bringing to our democracy. What are we getting for it?
Social Security, Medicaid, healthcare, the basics, the services and programs people rely on. And I thought he did a really great job of articulating both of those arguments, specifically around, look at all the chaos, look at all the destruction he's bringing to our democracy. What are we getting for it?
Social Security, Medicaid, healthcare, the basics, the services and programs people rely on. And I thought he did a really great job of articulating both of those arguments, specifically around, look at all the chaos, look at all the destruction he's bringing to our democracy. What are we getting for it?
I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. Is he running for president? Is there any senator that isn't in their minds in some way running for president?
I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. Is he running for president? Is there any senator that isn't in their minds in some way running for president?
I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. Is he running for president? Is there any senator that isn't in their minds in some way running for president?
I sort of, it's funny, like, even as you asked that, like, I'm such a political fiend. And for whatever reason, I have just no appetite for that right now. Because it, first of all, because it feels so far away. And also, like, I don't really think there's much you can do to kind of handicap this race right now. Anybody who wants to be president,
I sort of, it's funny, like, even as you asked that, like, I'm such a political fiend. And for whatever reason, I have just no appetite for that right now. Because it, first of all, because it feels so far away. And also, like, I don't really think there's much you can do to kind of handicap this race right now. Anybody who wants to be president,
I sort of, it's funny, like, even as you asked that, like, I'm such a political fiend. And for whatever reason, I have just no appetite for that right now. Because it, first of all, because it feels so far away. And also, like, I don't really think there's much you can do to kind of handicap this race right now. Anybody who wants to be president,
has got to be somebody, and Cory Booker did this, great, has to be someone out there in the fight showing that they understand the politics of this moment, that they have a passion and a rage in them to protect the country. And that's what I'm looking for. My one sort of...
has got to be somebody, and Cory Booker did this, great, has to be someone out there in the fight showing that they understand the politics of this moment, that they have a passion and a rage in them to protect the country. And that's what I'm looking for. My one sort of...
has got to be somebody, and Cory Booker did this, great, has to be someone out there in the fight showing that they understand the politics of this moment, that they have a passion and a rage in them to protect the country. And that's what I'm looking for. My one sort of...
feeling about it is I am so not interested in the kinds of planning and maneuvers that are about like building a profile and carefully managing the rollout. Like that is from another era and I'm just completely not interested in it. Yeah, it really is, right?
feeling about it is I am so not interested in the kinds of planning and maneuvers that are about like building a profile and carefully managing the rollout. Like that is from another era and I'm just completely not interested in it. Yeah, it really is, right?
feeling about it is I am so not interested in the kinds of planning and maneuvers that are about like building a profile and carefully managing the rollout. Like that is from another era and I'm just completely not interested in it. Yeah, it really is, right?
No, thank you.
No, thank you.
No, thank you.
Yeah, so this is sort of a boxing day for Liberation Day.
Yeah, so this is sort of a boxing day for Liberation Day.
Yeah, so this is sort of a boxing day for Liberation Day.
Trump's building a wall and we're all going to pay for it is, I think, what's happening. Larry Summers, Larry Summers posted this and he's the famous economist and former economist. Treasury secretary and somebody who is not hyperbolic, saying that a crude estimate of Trump's tariffs puts the projected loss at $20 trillion or well over $200,000 per family of four.
Trump's building a wall and we're all going to pay for it is, I think, what's happening. Larry Summers, Larry Summers posted this and he's the famous economist and former economist. Treasury secretary and somebody who is not hyperbolic, saying that a crude estimate of Trump's tariffs puts the projected loss at $20 trillion or well over $200,000 per family of four.
Trump's building a wall and we're all going to pay for it is, I think, what's happening. Larry Summers, Larry Summers posted this and he's the famous economist and former economist. Treasury secretary and somebody who is not hyperbolic, saying that a crude estimate of Trump's tariffs puts the projected loss at $20 trillion or well over $200,000 per family of four.
And then he walks through how he reaches that very conservative estimate of the damage. They're not reciprocal tariffs. People were baffled by the number. I'm not an economist, but people looking at this, they're sort of scratching their heads trying to figure out what this number is. And they realized that it's not based on the tariffs of these other countries.
And then he walks through how he reaches that very conservative estimate of the damage. They're not reciprocal tariffs. People were baffled by the number. I'm not an economist, but people looking at this, they're sort of scratching their heads trying to figure out what this number is. And they realized that it's not based on the tariffs of these other countries.
And then he walks through how he reaches that very conservative estimate of the damage. They're not reciprocal tariffs. People were baffled by the number. I'm not an economist, but people looking at this, they're sort of scratching their heads trying to figure out what this number is. And they realized that it's not based on the tariffs of these other countries.
It's a crude calculation based on the trade deficit with these other countries and not the trade deficit on goods and services, but just the trade deficit on goods. The the even the administration itself admitted that it was too hard to actually calculate for every country what the reciprocal tariffs would be. And so they came up with this ridiculous formula.
It's a crude calculation based on the trade deficit with these other countries and not the trade deficit on goods and services, but just the trade deficit on goods. The the even the administration itself admitted that it was too hard to actually calculate for every country what the reciprocal tariffs would be. And so they came up with this ridiculous formula.
It's a crude calculation based on the trade deficit with these other countries and not the trade deficit on goods and services, but just the trade deficit on goods. The the even the administration itself admitted that it was too hard to actually calculate for every country what the reciprocal tariffs would be. And so they came up with this ridiculous formula.
The hope has to be that these fake numbers. are just an opening bid in a negotiation.
The hope has to be that these fake numbers. are just an opening bid in a negotiation.
The hope has to be that these fake numbers. are just an opening bid in a negotiation.
I think Trump has believed since the 80s, the last time he formed any new ideas, that tariffs are good and that we have trade deficits because other countries are taking advantage of us. He has been he has been pushing and pushing and pushing to do sweeping tariffs. He was stopped in the first term by cooler heads.
I think Trump has believed since the 80s, the last time he formed any new ideas, that tariffs are good and that we have trade deficits because other countries are taking advantage of us. He has been he has been pushing and pushing and pushing to do sweeping tariffs. He was stopped in the first term by cooler heads.
I think Trump has believed since the 80s, the last time he formed any new ideas, that tariffs are good and that we have trade deficits because other countries are taking advantage of us. He has been he has been pushing and pushing and pushing to do sweeping tariffs. He was stopped in the first term by cooler heads.
Like there's many ways in which what Trump what we're seeing with Trump is a kind of extreme. bizarro version of a normal pattern with first and second term presidents, which is in the first term, presidents work for the White House. In the second term, the White House works for the president. Presidents figure out where they can get more control. They feel more confident in exercising the power.
Like there's many ways in which what Trump what we're seeing with Trump is a kind of extreme. bizarro version of a normal pattern with first and second term presidents, which is in the first term, presidents work for the White House. In the second term, the White House works for the president. Presidents figure out where they can get more control. They feel more confident in exercising the power.
Like there's many ways in which what Trump what we're seeing with Trump is a kind of extreme. bizarro version of a normal pattern with first and second term presidents, which is in the first term, presidents work for the White House. In the second term, the White House works for the president. Presidents figure out where they can get more control. They feel more confident in exercising the power.
They feel like they belong there. They no longer feel like they're imposters. And so all the people that would have stopped Trump from doing this, they're gone. Right. It's a different set of people, but he has more responsible people.
They feel like they belong there. They no longer feel like they're imposters. And so all the people that would have stopped Trump from doing this, they're gone. Right. It's a different set of people, but he has more responsible people.
They feel like they belong there. They no longer feel like they're imposters. And so all the people that would have stopped Trump from doing this, they're gone. Right. It's a different set of people, but he has more responsible people.
I mean, I think they're all they all look like fucking idiots today, but he has more responsible people on on economics than he does, say, running around the FBI or HHS. But Trump wanted to do this and nobody could stop him. They put together this half baked. cockamamie plan involving ridiculous calculation to create these charts.
I mean, I think they're all they all look like fucking idiots today, but he has more responsible people on on economics than he does, say, running around the FBI or HHS. But Trump wanted to do this and nobody could stop him. They put together this half baked. cockamamie plan involving ridiculous calculation to create these charts.
I mean, I think they're all they all look like fucking idiots today, but he has more responsible people on on economics than he does, say, running around the FBI or HHS. But Trump wanted to do this and nobody could stop him. They put together this half baked. cockamamie plan involving ridiculous calculation to create these charts.
Nobody is really crossing the T's and dotting the I's, which is why we're taxing penguins. And the end result is this chaos. That said, I think the point that Chris Murphy is making is a is a really important one. He has a lot of grand language there. Trump knows that Trump likes using his power. He likes the way it feels to exercise power.
Nobody is really crossing the T's and dotting the I's, which is why we're taxing penguins. And the end result is this chaos. That said, I think the point that Chris Murphy is making is a is a really important one. He has a lot of grand language there. Trump knows that Trump likes using his power. He likes the way it feels to exercise power.
Nobody is really crossing the T's and dotting the I's, which is why we're taxing penguins. And the end result is this chaos. That said, I think the point that Chris Murphy is making is a is a really important one. He has a lot of grand language there. Trump knows that Trump likes using his power. He likes the way it feels to exercise power.
Congress has given way too much authority to the president on tariffs. He puts these tariffs in place and all of a sudden Republican House members are lobbying him. Businesses are lobbying him for relief. Countries are lobbying him for relief.
Congress has given way too much authority to the president on tariffs. He puts these tariffs in place and all of a sudden Republican House members are lobbying him. Businesses are lobbying him for relief. Countries are lobbying him for relief.
Congress has given way too much authority to the president on tariffs. He puts these tariffs in place and all of a sudden Republican House members are lobbying him. Businesses are lobbying him for relief. Countries are lobbying him for relief.
And even if you view it, even if you take the most generous version of it, right, which is not that he's doing this to destroy democracy, but doing this to create leverage. The question is, what does he do with it? Right. And can he use these tariffs, say, on agriculture or to provide relief for these tariffs on agriculture to to rally votes for a bill, for example?
And even if you view it, even if you take the most generous version of it, right, which is not that he's doing this to destroy democracy, but doing this to create leverage. The question is, what does he do with it? Right. And can he use these tariffs, say, on agriculture or to provide relief for these tariffs on agriculture to to rally votes for a bill, for example?
And even if you view it, even if you take the most generous version of it, right, which is not that he's doing this to destroy democracy, but doing this to create leverage. The question is, what does he do with it? Right. And can he use these tariffs, say, on agriculture or to provide relief for these tariffs on agriculture to to rally votes for a bill, for example?
And so I do think this is about power. I do think this is about control. But I also think he genuinely believes that tariffs are good.
And so I do think this is about power. I do think this is about control. But I also think he genuinely believes that tariffs are good.
And so I do think this is about power. I do think this is about control. But I also think he genuinely believes that tariffs are good.
I think we just don't know. It's interesting because we talked about this on Pod Save America on Monday. And look, there's a lot of like hyperbolic partisans talking about how the markets are crashing, the markets are crashing. And they weren't. They actually weren't. They were down. They were, of course, down. But year over year, they were up. And the question was why.
I think we just don't know. It's interesting because we talked about this on Pod Save America on Monday. And look, there's a lot of like hyperbolic partisans talking about how the markets are crashing, the markets are crashing. And they weren't. They actually weren't. They were down. They were, of course, down. But year over year, they were up. And the question was why.
I think we just don't know. It's interesting because we talked about this on Pod Save America on Monday. And look, there's a lot of like hyperbolic partisans talking about how the markets are crashing, the markets are crashing. And they weren't. They actually weren't. They were down. They were, of course, down. But year over year, they were up. And the question was why.
And it seems like what we've learned today is nobody really believed it would be as bad as what they announced. And I still don't think we know. And what we have to watch unfold is, are we seeing the beginning of a truly disastrous long-term tariff policy?
And it seems like what we've learned today is nobody really believed it would be as bad as what they announced. And I still don't think we know. And what we have to watch unfold is, are we seeing the beginning of a truly disastrous long-term tariff policy?
And it seems like what we've learned today is nobody really believed it would be as bad as what they announced. And I still don't think we know. And what we have to watch unfold is, are we seeing the beginning of a truly disastrous long-term tariff policy?
Or is this an extreme version of what we saw when he first put in place the Canada and Mexico tariffs, which is he talks a big game, but if he gets... concessions in quotes or pushback or just fake concessions like a fentanyl czar or a press conference in which the Mexican president announces policies she had already put in place months earlier. Will he lower them? Right.
Or is this an extreme version of what we saw when he first put in place the Canada and Mexico tariffs, which is he talks a big game, but if he gets... concessions in quotes or pushback or just fake concessions like a fentanyl czar or a press conference in which the Mexican president announces policies she had already put in place months earlier. Will he lower them? Right.
Or is this an extreme version of what we saw when he first put in place the Canada and Mexico tariffs, which is he talks a big game, but if he gets... concessions in quotes or pushback or just fake concessions like a fentanyl czar or a press conference in which the Mexican president announces policies she had already put in place months earlier. Will he lower them? Right.
Like what what does he want to reduce these numbers? The hope has to be that because these figures are so ridiculous, right, like he's calling them reciprocal tariffs. Like how does Vietnam
Like what what does he want to reduce these numbers? The hope has to be that because these figures are so ridiculous, right, like he's calling them reciprocal tariffs. Like how does Vietnam
Like what what does he want to reduce these numbers? The hope has to be that because these figures are so ridiculous, right, like he's calling them reciprocal tariffs. Like how does Vietnam
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
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He seems busy. I haven't noticed any change in the actual use of the app. It is interesting that how much this has become Trump's decision, right? Like this, how far down the road we've come. We talk about how he wants to be the main decider on tariffs and wants people to come kind of kiss the ring. That's what we're seeing here, right? This presumably should be ByteDance's decision.
He seems busy. I haven't noticed any change in the actual use of the app. It is interesting that how much this has become Trump's decision, right? Like this, how far down the road we've come. We talk about how he wants to be the main decider on tariffs and wants people to come kind of kiss the ring. That's what we're seeing here, right? This presumably should be ByteDance's decision.
He seems busy. I haven't noticed any change in the actual use of the app. It is interesting that how much this has become Trump's decision, right? Like this, how far down the road we've come. We talk about how he wants to be the main decider on tariffs and wants people to come kind of kiss the ring. That's what we're seeing here, right? This presumably should be ByteDance's decision.
But Trump isn't right. Well, that's and that's that that there was some hope apparently on the part of the Chinese that TikTok was a bit of leverage in the in the terrified. But that doesn't appear to have gotten them anything. I don't know what happens with TikTok. I was pretty upset. about the way this all went down. The law itself.
But Trump isn't right. Well, that's and that's that that there was some hope apparently on the part of the Chinese that TikTok was a bit of leverage in the in the terrified. But that doesn't appear to have gotten them anything. I don't know what happens with TikTok. I was pretty upset. about the way this all went down. The law itself.
But Trump isn't right. Well, that's and that's that that there was some hope apparently on the part of the Chinese that TikTok was a bit of leverage in the in the terrified. But that doesn't appear to have gotten them anything. I don't know what happens with TikTok. I was pretty upset. about the way this all went down. The law itself.
The law itself, because there was very little public debate or explanation about why TikTok was so dangerous. And a lot of the explanations were about the harm it does to people. But people didn't seem to mind if that harm was being done to Americans by Americans, Instagram is awful for young people. I think TikTok can be really awful for young people.
The law itself, because there was very little public debate or explanation about why TikTok was so dangerous. And a lot of the explanations were about the harm it does to people. But people didn't seem to mind if that harm was being done to Americans by Americans, Instagram is awful for young people. I think TikTok can be really awful for young people.
The law itself, because there was very little public debate or explanation about why TikTok was so dangerous. And a lot of the explanations were about the harm it does to people. But people didn't seem to mind if that harm was being done to Americans by Americans, Instagram is awful for young people. I think TikTok can be really awful for young people.
So why is it a good thing if Americans do it to each other, but a bad thing if a foreign country does it to us? Why do our own billionaires, you know, running rampage through our minds? Why is that acceptable? And so I never thought they made the public case, which is why when all of a sudden they caught the car and TikTok was about to be banned, they did this ridiculous save TikTok.
So why is it a good thing if Americans do it to each other, but a bad thing if a foreign country does it to us? Why do our own billionaires, you know, running rampage through our minds? Why is that acceptable? And so I never thought they made the public case, which is why when all of a sudden they caught the car and TikTok was about to be banned, they did this ridiculous save TikTok.
So why is it a good thing if Americans do it to each other, but a bad thing if a foreign country does it to us? Why do our own billionaires, you know, running rampage through our minds? Why is that acceptable? And so I never thought they made the public case, which is why when all of a sudden they caught the car and TikTok was about to be banned, they did this ridiculous save TikTok.
Thank you, President Trump bullshit. And it worked. So I really don't like the way this works. went down.
Thank you, President Trump bullshit. And it worked. So I really don't like the way this works. went down.
Thank you, President Trump bullshit. And it worked. So I really don't like the way this works. went down.
Right.
Right.
Right.
They didn't make the case at all. They didn't. They didn't. They just, oh, it's a national security threat. Excuse me. Excuse me. Like, my For You page is.
They didn't make the case at all. They didn't. They didn't. They just, oh, it's a national security threat. Excuse me. Excuse me. Like, my For You page is.
They didn't make the case at all. They didn't. They didn't. They just, oh, it's a national security threat. Excuse me. Excuse me. Like, my For You page is.
Right. My For You page is, you know, recipes. And old clips of Conan. A lot of recipes. Got to make the viral Turkish pasta, Cara.
Right. My For You page is, you know, recipes. And old clips of Conan. A lot of recipes. Got to make the viral Turkish pasta, Cara.
Right. My For You page is, you know, recipes. And old clips of Conan. A lot of recipes. Got to make the viral Turkish pasta, Cara.
Just, you know, among other things. Hot guys, hot guys doing new kinds of exercises. Oh, yeah. Teaching me ways to lift weights.
Just, you know, among other things. Hot guys, hot guys doing new kinds of exercises. Oh, yeah. Teaching me ways to lift weights.
Just, you know, among other things. Hot guys, hot guys doing new kinds of exercises. Oh, yeah. Teaching me ways to lift weights.
I think that there's a big overlap between fit middle-aged men and gay guys. There's a big overlap in what they're seeing, which are just handsome men rocking their delts.
I think that there's a big overlap between fit middle-aged men and gay guys. There's a big overlap in what they're seeing, which are just handsome men rocking their delts.
I think that there's a big overlap between fit middle-aged men and gay guys. There's a big overlap in what they're seeing, which are just handsome men rocking their delts.
Oh, I think there'd be, hmm, I think we'd see, you know, lesbian talk and gay talk are so separate. They're so distinct. They're such distinct universes. I don't know what we'd see with you, woodworking, clips of Brandi Carlile, that kind of thing.
Oh, I think there'd be, hmm, I think we'd see, you know, lesbian talk and gay talk are so separate. They're so distinct. They're such distinct universes. I don't know what we'd see with you, woodworking, clips of Brandi Carlile, that kind of thing.
Oh, I think there'd be, hmm, I think we'd see, you know, lesbian talk and gay talk are so separate. They're so distinct. They're such distinct universes. I don't know what we'd see with you, woodworking, clips of Brandi Carlile, that kind of thing.
When I was a kid, the Food Network launched. Yeah. And everyone was like, that's got to be a joke. How can you fill a whole network with food content? And the answer was, you can. And it's great. It was ahead of its time. But I used to watch the Food Network with my mom.
When I was a kid, the Food Network launched. Yeah. And everyone was like, that's got to be a joke. How can you fill a whole network with food content? And the answer was, you can. And it's great. It was ahead of its time. But I used to watch the Food Network with my mom.
When I was a kid, the Food Network launched. Yeah. And everyone was like, that's got to be a joke. How can you fill a whole network with food content? And the answer was, you can. And it's great. It was ahead of its time. But I used to watch the Food Network with my mom.
You know, I was at Jeffrey Weingarten. Remember Jeffrey Weingarten?
You know, I was at Jeffrey Weingarten. Remember Jeffrey Weingarten?
You know, I was at Jeffrey Weingarten. Remember Jeffrey Weingarten?
Yeah. I remember he said, my mother and I used to joke about this for years because he said, fava beans are very in right now. And that's just something we said to each other for years. Fava beans are very in right now.
Yeah. I remember he said, my mother and I used to joke about this for years because he said, fava beans are very in right now. And that's just something we said to each other for years. Fava beans are very in right now.
Yeah. I remember he said, my mother and I used to joke about this for years because he said, fava beans are very in right now. And that's just something we said to each other for years. Fava beans are very in right now.
I think one of these deals is going to be the deal, and it's going to basically look the same at the other side of it. And the user experience will roughly be the same, but there'll be this sort of change in ownership.
I think one of these deals is going to be the deal, and it's going to basically look the same at the other side of it. And the user experience will roughly be the same, but there'll be this sort of change in ownership.
I think one of these deals is going to be the deal, and it's going to basically look the same at the other side of it. And the user experience will roughly be the same, but there'll be this sort of change in ownership.
U.S.
U.S.
U.S.
I do have a prediction. I'm actually re-upping a prediction that I made before the election, but I want to make it here because I want it on the record, which is, I said this last year, which is that if Donald Trump won, Eric Adams would end up in the cabinet. And I just want to just lay that down once again, that I believe that that is the end result of a lot of this.
I do have a prediction. I'm actually re-upping a prediction that I made before the election, but I want to make it here because I want it on the record, which is, I said this last year, which is that if Donald Trump won, Eric Adams would end up in the cabinet. And I just want to just lay that down once again, that I believe that that is the end result of a lot of this.
I do have a prediction. I'm actually re-upping a prediction that I made before the election, but I want to make it here because I want it on the record, which is, I said this last year, which is that if Donald Trump won, Eric Adams would end up in the cabinet. And I just want to just lay that down once again, that I believe that that is the end result of a lot of this.
And he's already started the suck-up process with Trump. I just...
And he's already started the suck-up process with Trump. I just...
And he's already started the suck-up process with Trump. I just...
Kash Patel? I thought he was a natural for Homeland Security. Oh, Kristi Noem.
Kash Patel? I thought he was a natural for Homeland Security. Oh, Kristi Noem.
Kash Patel? I thought he was a natural for Homeland Security. Oh, Kristi Noem.
That's a natural fit for him, but I could see him at FBI too. We'll see. We'll see. Depends on how long Kristi Noem lasts.
That's a natural fit for him, but I could see him at FBI too. We'll see. We'll see. Depends on how long Kristi Noem lasts.
That's a natural fit for him, but I could see him at FBI too. We'll see. We'll see. Depends on how long Kristi Noem lasts.
You got to get close to the king.
You got to get close to the king.
You got to get close to the king.
If America is going to go from having a democracy to a court, you've got to be near the court.
If America is going to go from having a democracy to a court, you've got to be near the court.
If America is going to go from having a democracy to a court, you've got to be near the court.
Put me in. Put me into this debate. Put you in. All right, I shall. I'll make a case. I really want to be part of that.
Put me in. Put me into this debate. Put you in. All right, I shall. I'll make a case. I really want to be part of that.
Put me in. Put me into this debate. Put you in. All right, I shall. I'll make a case. I really want to be part of that.
I'll tell you. I've gone back to the beginning of Real Housewives of New York. And it is a joy. Look, when the world- Are you watching it? Okay. I'm starting from, I never watched it before. So I'm going back to the very first season of Real Housewives of New York. I have been resistant, I think from a kind of snootiness to Real Housewives for years.
I'll tell you. I've gone back to the beginning of Real Housewives of New York. And it is a joy. Look, when the world- Are you watching it? Okay. I'm starting from, I never watched it before. So I'm going back to the very first season of Real Housewives of New York. I have been resistant, I think from a kind of snootiness to Real Housewives for years.
I'll tell you. I've gone back to the beginning of Real Housewives of New York. And it is a joy. Look, when the world- Are you watching it? Okay. I'm starting from, I never watched it before. So I'm going back to the very first season of Real Housewives of New York. I have been resistant, I think from a kind of snootiness to Real Housewives for years.
I've always said to myself, I don't like the reality shows. I like competitive reality shows, but I don't like the true bravo. And in hindsight, that was, I was hurting my own viewing and, The Real Housewives are incredible. And I do believe it is hard to understand Trump, right? People call up, talk about him being a reality show because of The Apprentice, but that was a competitive show.
I've always said to myself, I don't like the reality shows. I like competitive reality shows, but I don't like the true bravo. And in hindsight, that was, I was hurting my own viewing and, The Real Housewives are incredible. And I do believe it is hard to understand Trump, right? People call up, talk about him being a reality show because of The Apprentice, but that was a competitive show.
I've always said to myself, I don't like the reality shows. I like competitive reality shows, but I don't like the true bravo. And in hindsight, that was, I was hurting my own viewing and, The Real Housewives are incredible. And I do believe it is hard to understand Trump, right? People call up, talk about him being a reality show because of The Apprentice, but that was a competitive show.
You really need to understand Real Housewives. Now that I see it, It is a great way to understand how Trump operates and the way these women use conflict to draw attention to themselves.
You really need to understand Real Housewives. Now that I see it, It is a great way to understand how Trump operates and the way these women use conflict to draw attention to themselves.
You really need to understand Real Housewives. Now that I see it, It is a great way to understand how Trump operates and the way these women use conflict to draw attention to themselves.
It's a joy.
It's a joy.
It's a joy.
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Hey, everybody.
Welcome to Pod Save America.
I'm John Lovett.
I just sat down with Andrew Ross Sorkin.
He is a CNBC host, New York Times columnist.
He also has a new book that's actually really great called 1929 about the stock market crash and Great Depression and a lot of really fascinating and relevant stories from that era.
We talked about business leaders bending the knee to Trump.
We talked about bubbles and tariffs and
and the morality of capitalism.
We talked about the business community's response to Zoran Mamdani.
It was a great conversation.
And he's somebody that is often talking directly with business leaders, with a lot of really influential voices and has a really great perspective on it.
Here it is.
Andrew, first of all, welcome to Pod Save America.
Good to see you.
So great to see you.
This is so exciting for me.
I'll take you a little bit behind the scenes, which is, I was excited to talk to you and I was excited about the book, but then you have to read the book.
And to be honest, I was like, ah, fuck, that's soon.
I got to read this book.
I really got sucked into it.
Oh, God bless you.
It's a really good book.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I want to talk about five things.
I want to talk about bubbles.
I want to talk about presidential power.
I want to talk about tariffs.
national mood.
I don't talk about the morality of capitalism.
Capitalism, socialism.
Sure.
So let's start with bubbles.
Yeah.
It's the 1920s.
Yes.
People are seeing this boom and they're nervous about it.
Yeah.
There had been a bubble and burst in living memory, right?
In the 1890s, there had been a big speculative crash.
A lot of people are around that remembered it.
Yep.
Before the crash, can you talk about what some of the Cassandras were saying, including people like Carter Glass?
So as you just said, brokerages were opening up everywhere.
This is not an exaggeration.
They were literally opening up in like hotel lobbies.
And so some of this is seen as a moral good in the moment.
Like this is the democratization of finance, right?
Like the Wall Street is no longer just for the super rich and the well-connected.
We're building a world market available to the JP Morgans, but also to Groucho Marx, right?
Like everybody can get in on it.
Now, you obviously draw parallels to what's happening now, not just with crypto, but with companies making trading more available to ordinary investors and the Trump administration trying to lower some of the guardrails, including guardrails from after the depression that try to protect people from.
irrational exuberance.
Can you talk about those parallels and why they make you nervous?
So the Biden administration was aware of this and was thinking about how do we regulate cryptocurrency to protect people and to protect the broader economy from the same kind of boom and bust and hyper speculation.
that happened in the 1920s, Trump at first is extremely skeptical of crypto, doesn't get it, starts to discover there's something in it for him personally.
Next thing we know, the SEC becomes sort of captured by crypto and he's selling it himself.
How much does that look like what was happening in the 20s?
And how...
How vulnerable are those of us who are staying out of cryptocurrency to its impacts if there's a crash of some kind?
And so then Trump comes in.
Yep.
He calls off an investigation into one of his key backers and that's sort of entwined in these businesses.
What are they doing right now to –
lower the kind of guardrails that we had put in place after the depression, both on cryptocurrency, but also in the broader market.
You don't need to be a day trader.
You don't do anything complicated.
You should just put your money into something that's safe and reliable that you can forget about and leave alone.
That's not your expertise.
That's not what you're maybe best at.
So you just you just have to save a bit at a time.
Nothing fancy.
And you'll be glad you did.
So the markets are crashing.
Herbert Hoover is in the White House, considers himself to be a man of action, as you say.
He's trying to manage this crisis.
But then there's this really interesting dynamic going
After Roosevelt is elected, but before he is sworn in, Hoover seemed to think there needed to be some kind of bank holiday.
Yes.
But didn't want to declare it.
And stepping back, it seems in the book that there's two reasons.
One is around...
Exercising presidential power and whether or not he had the power.
The other is almost like a spiritual aversion to admitting that there was a crisis.
So there's this moment in the book where Hoover calls Roosevelt at 1130 p.m.
just before he's going to be inaugurated.
Can you talk about that conversation?
Why was Hoover calling him?
And what did Roosevelt take from it?
So what is going on here?
So there's a run on the banks.
Yes.
The economy is in a free fall.
Hoover is president.
He's a smart guy.
Not a dumb man.
He is smart.
He was worried about the speculation all through the 20s.
He didn't seem to have paid enough attention to it, but he is very concerned about it, concerned about the possibility of it all going bust.
Why doesn't he just declare the bank holiday that he believes is necessary?
Why would he ask his...
his successor to do it in advance.
Meanwhile, Carter Glass, who is, as we discussed, against all this Wall Street speculation, he tells Roosevelt, I think the president of the United States had no more valid authority to close or open a bank in the United States than had my stable boy.
He just doesn't believe the authority is there.
Hoover, in that letter you mentioned.
Yes.
Tells him, actually, I think you do have the authority, which is buried in an old dusty statute called the Trading with the Enemy Act.
Yes.
Hey, we have this old law in the books.
Yes.
That you can go and grab and use to do this thing for which it had never been.
Are you seeing parallels to today?
So...
Sometimes you will see, and it is not the first, second, third, or fourth defense of Trump, but it's in there, kind of a more intellectual one, which is that all these liberals that say Donald Trump is a tyrant, that he's an authoritarian, FDR comes in, fundamentally changes the role of president, takes authority that few believed or imagined a president ever having,
bullies the court, expands the welfare state, changes the government, builds a bureaucracy.
And he's one of the libs, he's one of our top three.
Sure.
Is there some truth to the idea that what Roosevelt planned to do was basically decide the presidency was far more powerful in a way that was kind of lawless?
But because it was now in history in service of getting us out of the Great Depression, we look on it fondly in a way that's actually ignorant of its dangers.
I know.
I think it's a distinction that really matters.
You know, he talks about it in the 1932 convention speech that there was this concentration of economic power and we were in just an unprecedented crisis that demanded a response.
It was, I do think, ultimately
It was it was necessary and patriotic and not for his own enrichment.
Also, it was not done in concert with putting troops on American streets and crackdowns.
And, you know, I remember when Obama when President Obama used the most delicate of language to criticize Wall Street and he got a lot of shit for it.
Yes, I remember it super well.
But Roosevelt is talking about the money changers in the temple, but he doesn't villainize vast numbers of Americans.
I think part of what matters is that there was a respect and integrity in the use of power and the understanding that it was serious and therefore required a certain amount of forbearance in how you treat people and how you talk about them.
And there's something about it.
Well, I think there's two things.
I think one, I think something happens when people catch the car, whether they've inherited or made it, they have all this money.
And they know that because they have all this money, they're supposed to be in better shape, not just financially, but emotionally.
And they look around, it's like,
How am I so rich and so mad?
What the fuck is happening?
It's almost like if I'm this mad and I'm this rich, I'm really getting fucked.
Something's really gone wrong here.
So that's one part of it.
The other is, I noticed this in life.
I think it's true in ways large and small.
If you're arguing about money, you're arguing about something else.
And a lot of times when you're arguing about something else, you're really arguing about money.
And so- Ooh, very interesting insight.
Sure.
I think sometimes that money can be a stand-in for value.
How valued am I, right?
That's certainly true in life.
So an attack on them as taxpayers and not paying enough is an attack on them as people, right?
So I think that's part of it.
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I want to talk, well, let's go to mood because I think you're getting at this, which is, you know, you talked about business leaders coming in to see Roosevelt.
That had begun under Hoover.
He invites business leaders to the White House.
And after the meeting, the head of Con Ed, Consolidated Edison at the time, tells someone, I was never so confused in my life.
Hoover believes that this is just an emotional thing, that America is having a psychological issue, basically.
We're having like a mental break.
And really, people just need to be buoyed.
But
He's the exact worst, even if that were the case, which wasn't, he's the exact wrong person to do it.
He's a terrible communicator.
Can you talk about both sides of this, right?
Like on the one hand, no, this isn't just a mood.
There's a huge crisis unfolding that's based in hard numbers.
And then if it were a mood, why he was so bad at persuading people or talking to people about what was happening.
That's real.
It's not some of them.
I mean, the people, people are furious that he's not paying attention to the rising to prices.
People feel like he hasn't fundamentally addressed the main reason he was able to get in a second time.
Yeah.
To the point about Biden and Hoover, there's a point in the book where you talk about Hoover struggling to communicate, in part because he's constitutionally gloomy, just a gloomy guy.
And I just think about Biden trying to reassure the country, but
His tone, certainly by the end, had become, when comprehensible, so defensive and so small.
And the parallel that I drew is Hoover is this person that sees himself as someone perfectly suited to understand and manage a crisis, far more so than Roosevelt, who knew far less about the economy.
And yet the country came to view Hoover as someone completely untrustworthy and put all their faith and belief in Roosevelt, believed he was the guy to solve it, even though he really had a pretty superficial understanding.
It was really going by gut.
And I think the parallels there are pretty obvious now.
I'm glad you didn't.
We live in an era where people are afraid of subtext and they don't trust their audience to just make their own conclusions.
But...
Great stories, you don't answer the question, you leave people with a question.
One would think, that's at least how it used to be.
But now you go into, now, this is for another conversation, but you'll, like, the number of movies where at about two-thirds of the way in, some character looks at the audience and says, here's the thesis of this film.
It's like out of control.
It's out of control.
I love you for saying that.
Let's talk about tariffs.
Stock market right now, especially responsive to Trump's push and pull with China.
We saw last week he threatens new tariffs on China.
The Dow plunges 900 points, then bounces back the next Monday because he basically has a softer energy about it.
Lots of vibes based market movements these days.
Does that make you nervous?
Are you like, I want to talk about tariffs as a policy, but just in the way the markets have reacted to global tariffs that we haven't seen since the depression.
Have you been surprised by the lack of reaction?
So he does seem responsive to it.
And yet, not so responsive as to have a comprehensible policy.
You know, you have Besant, Scott Besant, Treasury Secretary, talking about how we need to rally Europe and our other economic partners to unite against China.
But how is that supposed to work when you spent the last nine months jerking everybody around?
It all seems idiotic, incomprehensible.
Is there anything beneath the surface that makes logic of it?
So but then it's like leverage towards what end, right?
Like if you really want it, like there's no coherence to what he's doing, right?
And that's what the tariffs over Europe does.
It gives him leverage to potentially, what, remove them so they'll work on China?
No, I know.
Yeah.
All of which could be true without first putting them on.
Anyway, it's done by the kind of group of fucking –
So you brought up the way he's sort of using leverage over corporations, and I want to talk about this.
I want to start with Charles Mitchell because I think it's relevant.
So you mentioned this earlier.
So Carter Glass, this anti-Wall Street segregationist, Charles Mitchell is one of his sort of chief enemies.
Charles Mitchell leads Citibank.
He...
is the kind of chief villain of this congressional inquiry that ultimately leads to charges.
Yes.
He is charged for tax fraud.
Yes.
He goes to trial.
What happens?
We're going to give away the end of the whole story.
Oh, so he goes to trial and you won't believe what happens.
Yeah.
I don't think of it.
I mean, I guess I don't think it's a spoiler.
And there it is.
Well, what's interesting about that is as you make this point in the book, I'm going to paraphrase, but something to the effect of there are criminals and there are frauds.
And that's a big part of this.
And in any kind of moment of of a bubble, there are people that will take advantage.
People are much more careful when times are tight.
Mm hmm.
But you make this point that a lot of these people did what anyone would have done.
And you've gotten some shit for saying that.
Yes, I have.
That people are like, oh, you're apologizing for these people.
But I actually want to take it at face value because how sad it is that this is what people would have done under these circumstances and in this moment.
Carter Glass is in some sense vindicated.
He then writes at great pain to his own health what becomes Glass-Steagall.
Roosevelt signs it.
It is seen as a bulwark against the excesses of the Depression.
But even that was a corrupted book.
Which I didn't know.
I didn't know that.
So that basically, that speculation was over here and vanilla savings was over here.
The Jared Kushner of the day.
There's a quote from Hoover's Treasury Secretary, Andrew Mellon, in 1929.
Quote is liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.
It will purge the rottenness out of the system.
High cost of living and high living will come down.
People will work harder, live a more moral life.
Values will be adjusted and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people.
Hoover.
He's telling that to Hoover in 1929.
There's a little bit of resonance in the way some of the... It's like a tea party speech.
It's a tea party speech.
It's also a MAGA...
industrial policy.
We've got to get back to making things.
We've got to get back to using our hands.
Carter Glass and the people that were against Wall Street speculation, they are ultimately vindicated because of what happens.
But they weren't just predicting the future.
They had a moral problem.
with what was happening in the economy.
Clearly someone like Andrew Mellon, pretty callous about what would happen to farmers who don't, you know, they are people, they don't liquidate as well as say dollars do.
But there's clearly something about the way the American dream had changed in this era that made people uncomfortable.
Can you talk about that?
Yeah, so just for people, so Horatio Alger stories, just for people, these were stories about kind of hardscrabble, people from hardscrabble roots working their way up, not to like supreme wealth, but to like a classic...
home life, like a good family life and providing for their family, like a middle class life.
And then all of a sudden there's the possibility that everybody can get rich.
And I was thinking about that and
What I would say the American dream is right now.
And in some sense, you're right.
It remains this idea of like, oh, you can get rich.
But the truth is, I don't know that I would say I've heard anybody really tell me what it is in quite some time.
Right.
People articulate the old version.
But there's something kind of sad about this moment right now, which is.
I don't know that people believe they'll get rich.
I don't know what people think about it, but I feel like there's an optimism that existed in the bubble that I don't know that we have right now.
I don't think I make this look good.
I don't think I make this look good.
Well, you know, it's funny because I was thinking about sort of the post-World War II era that follows, you know, the depression leads into the New Deal and into the World War II and the way that changed the economy.
And you had far higher taxes.
You had far more egalitarian economic growth.
It was a heyday for union jobs.
In some sense, high costs of living and high living did come down.
In some sense, people did live, well, at least a more moral life, the version of the American dream that people had aspired to before seemed to, in some sense, return.
Values did adjust.
There was a different value set in that.
We didn't live up to it.
And a lot of people were kept outside of it, to be clear.
But it wasn't high-flying.
It was a more righteous version of America.
There was some truth to the idea that there was a version of
American capitalism without the high flying.
You should take that fucking, that is not true.
Don't say that here.
These are forts.
These are American, how dare you?
They are not better.
Yeah, my car squeaks a little.
Sorry, go on.
Along with globalization, you also had a shift towards regressive taxation.
You had deregulation.
You had a whole host of ways in which every policy seemed to be designed to make matters worse for the middle class.
And I agree.
Just thinking ahead of the comments.
So let's talk.
You talked about what CEOs are saying.
Let's talk about what the CEOs are doing here.
Because this gets into sort of the moment and sort of the...
The morals of this version of capitalism we have right now, Tim Cook, smart guy, gay guy, not central, but it's a fact.
He's marching down to the White House, bringing a bauble for Donald Trump.
That sucks.
That's gotta suck.
He's gotta hate doing that.
Why is he doing that?
What's the logic?
How does he defend to himself
why you would go down there and kiss the ring and end up standing between Donald Trump and JD Vance.
Well, I don't even remember now what it was, but it was some, like he was standing there between two of them doing some sort of disgusting diatribe.
It'd be so funny if he did a really gay voice.
Do keep going.
I'm sorry.
So there's three parts of this.
One is you mentioned, which is they're not acting collectively.
which is not in their instinct.
But is there an understanding behind the scenes here that while any one short-term capitulation might be in the interest of an Apple or another major company, that in the long run,
you know, a patronage economy, like an Orban style economy.
It's not good for business.
And that there is a collective interest in finding ways to head that off, especially as you noted, the one governor of Trump has been the markets and being afraid of sinking them.
Right.
That's a smart – that's a good idea because presumably one would think the government demanding 10 percent of intel might have been at least a shade of maroon, a light pink line.
One would think –
So the first part is why there isn't more collective action.
The second part we talked about, which is why they're afraid of Trump, which I think makes sense.
Third part.
when Tim Cook goes and kisses the ring, when colleges capitulate, when law firms or media companies capitulate, it's not just because they think Trump is scary.
It's because they think the people that don't like Trump aren't to be worried about even one little bit.
Now you've had Elizabeth Warren and some other Democrats try to signal, hey,
It doesn't matter if all your friends are doing it.
These are corrupt deals.
In some form, these are bribes.
We will come after you once we are in power again.
I think that matters.
It doesn't seem to matter very much.
And then you have moments where Democrats or people that just don't like Trump almost organically cancel Disney+.
And that's noticed.
That seems to be a moment of influence.
But for the most part, it feels like if you're a CEO and you're more worried about Trump than you are the opposition to Trump, that's correct.
How does that change?
And what did like the kind of, he's done something interesting, right?
He's gone and met with business executives that would be really skeptical of him.
And he's charming them a little bit.
What are you hearing behind the scenes about him?
So the book is 1929, Inside the Greatest Crash in History and How it Shattered a Nation.
Last thoughts on this, which you end the book talking about two things, which is humility and resilience.
Yeah.
We need a lot of both.
I'm not interested in resilience right now because I sometimes feel as though we kind of rely on it.
And let's say for a moment we're not.
Let's act as if we aren't.
But humility.
If we look back on this moment.
And there is some kind of a crash to come, whether it's around AI investments or crypto or something we can't see coming that sort of the dark sides of the market finding their way into people's 401ks.
What are the obvious signs right now that will look back and say, God damn it, we were so fucking stupid.
It was staring us in the face.
Andrew Ronstorkin, so good to talk to you.
Great conversation.
Everybody do really recommend the book.
Really fascinating and relevant to this moment.
Thanks so much.
Thank you.
Yeah, that was a heady days.
Our salad days back when we thought there was a chance.
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the most good-hearted and sort of civic-minded organization that you could imagine.
There's a point where he said that we've been waiting 3,000 years for this.
That's a long time.
It's pretty amazing to solve a conflict
before at least one of the major religions involved was created.
So it is just an unalloyed good to see hostages returned to their families.
Cannot imagine what it is like for those families to have their child or their children.
Sister or brother family member kidnapped Hidden away not sure if they're alive or dead not sure if even if they are alive they will remain so That is a kind of torture that that is a that is an unimaginable circumstance so that is
a beautiful thing to see, also reports today that aid is surging into Gaza, that humanitarian aid is able to flow much more than before to help people, many who are living under famine conditions.
That is also welcome and incredibly important.
That sort of was my reaction to it.
you start to see the immediate kind of old debate, not old debate, but the kind of, beneath the very good news, sort of the contours of like how hard this is gonna be moving forward.
The acrimony about those that view what happened in Gaza as a genocide, while those somehow claiming that because
Israel was willing to end the conflict at the return of the hostages.
That means its conduct in the war was justified when it was not.
The fact that Gaza is leveled and Trump is signing a document with a bunch of leaders that I don't.
Have we seen it yet?
Claiming that they're all going to take part in the rebuilding, even as we have no idea what they're even agreeing to.
You just beneath the surface of what is a very, very good document.
uh uh moment is the reality that trump can can kind of do his bombastic celebrations around but but uh like it's this remains a really difficult and intractable situation and and it's just so unserious the way he talks about it it makes you terrified for what could happen
So this is the part that I...
The original Trump plan required Hamas to disarm, seek exile outside of Gaza, not be part of governance.
Is that still what is expected?
Do we know what the outcome is gonna be for members of Hamas?
Are they allowed to remain in Gaza?
Do they have to simply not be part of the government?
Do they have to declare they're no longer part of Hamas?
Do we have any sense of what happens?
I think that's all to be negotiated now.
assigned some deal that we haven't really seen yet that says they'll fund it but it's going to require a lot of focus a lot of money a lot of governance right like like we don't know what it's going to look like for like what is good what what does israel security look like on the border of gaza now how big of a like buffer zone are they gonna they gonna demand and keep
Like how much are they gonna require in terms of like visibility into what becomes of Gaza?
Who is going to oversee it?
It's supposed to be Tony Blair last week.
I don't know if it's still gonna be Tony Blair next week.
Trump is gonna lead the board of peace still, I assume.
And then it's like, who is contributing this money?
Who is overseeing this rebuilding?
The place has been leveled.
There's been like an effort to say like, oh, Joe Biden was in a different position
than Trump, that this is not because Joe Biden failed to put pressure on Netanyahu in a way that Trump did.
I don't know about that.
But Netanyahu was sending the IDF into parts of Gaza, taking it, leaving it, retaking it, leaving it more level than it was before.
They have raised all of Gaza to the ground.
By the end, this seemed to be a conflict in which Netanyahu was just having the military kind of move up and down this kind of leveled place while
claiming that they are fighting this brutal war because it's the only way to secure the release of the hostages, while at the same time claiming that Hamas doesn't care whether their own civilians live or die.
So now Gaza is completely destroyed.
There are still millions of people there who have no place to go.
It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
if there is some security threat that Israel views as taking place inside of the strip, are they gonna send more military back in?
Like, we just have no fucking idea.
Or just airstrikes in perpetuity?
Like, the next phase is so...
Well, that, so what was it a few months ago that Mahmoud Abbas has denied entry to the United States?
He's denied a right to come to the United Nations because he's a security threat.
Now he's in Egypt meeting with Trump and shaking his hand.
So like that, like, it's like,
Part of what makes this also kind of confusing is it's so much based around Trump's ego and his specific relationships and the job people are doing to kind of make Trump feel like he's on their side or to make them feel like they're on Trump's side.
Like, I guess, Abbas had posted something about the threat on Trump's life during the campaign.
And now all of a sudden they're kind of shaking hands and he's trying to like lift him back up to what end, I don't know.
There's some truth to that.
There's also, I do think time matters, right?
It's now, it's been two years of brutal conflict and you have like just the, again, Gaza being leveled, you have hostages, families, the families of hostages protesting outside of Benjamin Netanyahu's home.
The only, the other than a few like rescues, which I'm glad took place,
There was a big hostage exchange in November of 2023, very early in the conflict.
There was another one in January of this year.
During a ceasefire, during a negotiation, right?
Like this was always going to require a negotiation.
Could Joe Biden have gotten to this point sooner?
But like the we are in part of the we are in the mess we're in with Trump domestically is because we're constantly being told how Joe Biden was not responsible and was constantly overtaken by events.
Like, does Trump have more room to maneuver?
Why is Donald Trump able to maneuver more than a Democrat, right?
Why is Joe Biden's leadership so fragile and brittle that he doesn't have the space to take chances and push Bibi or send emissaries to meet with Hamas in a way that Trump does?
How does he have the flexibility that a Democrat doesn't?
And like, why not answer that rather than say how much easier of a job Trump had?
I don't believe the job of being president is easy, but Joe Biden certainly doesn't make it look possible.
He's never engaged.
And part of this also is Netanyahu, we know, his political interest required the war to continue.
That might explain why it had gone on for as long as it did, but it doesn't allow for the war to go on forever.
Right, right, right.
At some point it would end.
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You know, we have to see what, like, this is just a, like, as you said, there's a moment of like a profound relief, right?
Like kind of the end of, well, hopefully the end of like this war.
Part of the reason Netanyahu,
felt political pressure to prolong the war is that once the war was over, the attention would then turn not just to his corruption, but to his abject failure to protect Israel from the worst act of violence in its history.
And the fact that he had his attention focused elsewhere, the fact that even...
you know, internal documents from Hamas make clear that the division and internal conflict over his effort to take over the judiciary had made Israel look weak to its enemies.
And that will start, that will once again come to the fore.
But the bigger, I think, issue here, and this will be part of what we talk about in terms of Israel's place in American domestic politics too is,
the damage to Israel's standing in the world will remain.
I hope the ceasefire holds.
I hope we're at the beginning of something new.
But it does not end the moral stain of how Israel conducted this war, even if you view Hamas as being responsible for it, which I do.
Even if you believe Hamas could have ended the war sooner, they prolonged it.
I believe that, absolutely.
The fact that Israel was justified in conducting this war, in defending itself,
And the fact that it had an achievable goal of releasing the hostages is not like a logic force field that allows you to ignore the brutality of how they conducted it and the collective punishment they inflicted.
And that stain will continue.
And getting rid of Benjamin Netanyahu will be part of how you move past that.
But it won't be enough because Israel will be held responsible for what it did.
And like how Israel moves forward, I don't know.
But part of it will be moving past Benjamin Netanyahu and the politics he represented.
He just got his beak wet.
He just got his beak wet.
And the like the ugliness of just like it's.
like I'm here, I'm in a good mood.
Like Benjamin has been on my side, I've been on his side.
You gotta let these kinds of things go.
We're just doing business here.
Just a guy doing business.
And by the way, like,
He's not been convicted.
In the United States, the pardon power is different.
You can pardon someone preemptively.
Now, that is an attack on the rule of law, but it's something that's happened here.
It would be unprecedented for an Israeli president to pardon a prime minister before he's even been convicted of a crime.
You know, it mirrors what we were just talking about.
The way Israel conducted this war has done so much damage to its standing amongst American Jews, among the American left.
You see it in the way in which anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism
have a blurry line between them in a way that is very disconcerting for Jewish people, especially Jewish people who are appalled by what Israel has done in this war.
At the same time, you see groups like the Anti-Defamation League use anti-Semitism like a cudgel against people with legitimate criticism.
And all of that has turned what was an issue that was pretty broadly felt, which is support for Israel's right to exist,
now kind of in question.
And I don't know what happens from here, but I do think it starts with American Jews being able to hold two ideas in their mind at the same time, which is that Israel absolutely has a right to defend itself, but it does not have a right to commit atrocities.
And that an Israel that does not protect human rights of Palestinians is an Israel that is not safe, an Israel that is a pariah.
And so that if you believe in Israel's right to exist, if you want to have a
a safe and prosperous Israel, you have to advocate against its conduct of the war and going forward a different kind of leadership in that country.
And so that's where I'm at on this.
But I do think like,
a lot will depend, I think, on what happens in Israel and also what happens with any plan to rebuild Gaza.
And by the way, like if it's alienated me, like, I'm sorry, but I'm like, I gotta be in the place where you're gonna want, like, I feel like I am extremely critical of Israel.
I am extremely critical of people that are knee jerk,
anti-Israel and who do not see enough of a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
I have pretty clear in believing Israel has a right to defend itself.
I hold Hamas responsible.
And then I see the way in which they go after Mamdani in a completely bad faith way and how when he goes and meets with Jews, it's not the right Jews for the ADL.
I see a lot of shit like that.
I find it very, I just think it's counterproductive because it turns people who have legitimate, it makes opponents of people who have real and valid questions about Israel.
And you want those people, right?
Including, by the way, a lot of Jews, a lot of Jews, especially younger Jews who do not understand how their parents feel about it, do not understand this.
You go, there is a lot of talking past each other, right?
Because they go to the story of like Israel founded, you know, and that it is a bastion of Jewish safety in the aftermath of the Holocaust.
It is a place where Jews expelled by Arab countries came to find safety.
But that is an old story.
It's an old story.
And an old story about Israel's founding because of the Holocaust
is not going to help us any more than an old story about how Israel is some colonialist project is going to help us.
How does Israel conduct itself now?
How does it defend itself in a way that upholds a basic defense of human rights now?
That to me is what matters.
Yeah, and by the same token, like there is a lot of like kind of, I hear it all the time.
It's a very easy thing now to be like, oh, you know, it's because they're in the pocket of APEC.
APEC often described as kind of a foreign involvement in the US when it's funded by American Jews becomes about like Jewish money.
And like, they're like, clearly that is a threat of antisemitism that exists on the right as well that I think is really dangerous.
And at the same time, like the, because,
Being anti-Israel became almost like a shibboleth in certain parts of the left.
It became so kind of almost casual for people to be chanting things like from the river to the sea and other kind of expressions that while those who say them might claim are not violent or don't speak to violence, it is kind of a kind of abstracted idea that just...
That if you were to follow to its conclusion would require what all Israelis to leave a massive, terrible and violent conflict, whatever it might be.
But it's like Israelis are there.
The Palestinians are there.
They all deserve dignity, peace and human rights.
And like everything after that, you know, I don't know.
By the way, also says to her, like, I don't know if she likes Israel or America more.
Which, by the way, like the and I know it's like, well, you know, he he's because because Donald Trump is on the right and kind of seen as like an ally of Netanyahu.
He can make jokes that are basically about dual loyalty, which is exactly like I don't care what he means or what he thinks.
I don't like like that is a that's fucked up.
Yeah, it's really bad.
It's, there is a point that he's making that I do, like, there is this strange thing that seems to happen where Trump does some kind of escalation.
He is just sending troops into Portland or Chicago.
He's trying to defy court orders by kind of getting around the order by getting troops from California to Chicago and Texas to Portland, whatever he's trying to do.
Meanwhile, you've got mass ICE agents on the streets.
They are backed up by, uh, uh, uh,
members of the military, this unprecedented effort against the wishes of state and local leaders.
And then all of a sudden the question is, but is he going to do the Insurrection Act?
What about the Insurrection Act?
Is he going to do the next one?
What about the next one?
As if that's the most important question.
Vance isn't wrong about that.
That isn't the most important question.
He invokes the Insurrection Act to send troops into American cities or continues to have American troops on our streets protecting ICE.
Like, both are very bad.
Both are very dangerous.
Why are they wearing masks?
Why are they there?
You know, all of these are the more important questions.
And he's like, oh, well, the media is at fault.
I think it is an escalation.
Of course, it's an escalation.
I think it's very dangerous.
Do I think like members, like you have ICE, which is increasingly a collection of people that are kind of ideologically committed to the Trump project.
And, you know, the U.S.
military is a much more diverse group of people who did not sign up to be part of Donald Trump's, you know, urban police squad, which is what they would be.
I'm not saying it's not a really serious escalation.
I do think it's that what I'm getting at is more this idea that like
oh boy, but the next thing Trump does, boy, that's going to be crazy, right?
He's already doing crazy shit.
Like there's plenty of bad happening that JD Vance can be questioned about.
And like what we've seen over and over again is Trump loves spitballing about the next thing.
He loves being asked about, like, are you going to suspend habeas corpus?
He didn't even know what it was.
He was like, probably, who's he?
You know, like, so it's like, that's like, I like, I'm not...
I like come away with this as just, we're constantly asking the Trump administration officials to spitball on how much worse they're willing to be.
And the answer is always worse.
Yes, they might do it.
I don't think Portland's going to do well in the battleground states.
I don't really care.
Like, naked people on bikes in Portland.
Keep Portland weird, you know?
And if it's going to be, let it do its thing.
Videos of naked people on bikes.
Everything that points out how ridiculous it is to claim Portland is a city at war.
Was the Chicago Marathon this weekend?
Like, the Chicago Marathon.
You know, it's like, we're not a conflict zone.
And so I like, have at it.
As long as you're peaceful, be as weird and freaky as you want to be.
So that's where I am.
Yeah, I guess here's the thing.
It's like the march of the Pete Buttigieg's will have to take place elsewhere.
Portland is going to do it its way.
Yeah, I like I hear you.
But like my like it's.
It's a super group.
I was at the first No King protest.
You were at the No King protest last time.
And it was so inspiring.
It was a lot of people with American flags, a lot of people out there with their dogs and their kids and their signs.
A lot of people who Mike Johnson doesn't care about.
Mike Johnson doesn't care about the concerns of people that don't think exactly the way that he does.
He doesn't care that millions of people are genuinely afraid for their country, also heartbroken by what they've seen in their country, like genuinely upset, not because they hate America, because they love America.
And they're upset about it.
And they know better.
It's also, like, just the way they've defined these terms down.
Like, terrorism, pro-Hamas.
What are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
Yeah, we're far down it because it's not just how they're describing this protest.
I talked about this with Leah a bit, but Indivisible, which was founded after Trump to just organize people at the local level, little chapters of people getting together to figure out how to do their duty, is on a list of organizations to be investigated.
You have Kristi Noem at this Antifa roundtable last week saying that Antifa is just as dangerous as Hamas and MS-13 and Trend de Aragua, right?
Meanwhile, as they're blowing up boats without any criminal charges or any other evidence and what they're just sort of kind of reassuring us they know about the people on these boats lawlessly.
Yeah, that's the thing.
And you are an unlawful combatant from a non-state actor terrorist group of a cartel.
It's like, we can kill you from above and then use the footage to make a snuff film that we put on social media because we are murdering, because you're killing us with drugs as if like they're, I don't know, like forcing us to take them at gunpoint.
And we don't kill drugs, drug smugglers.
That's a criminal enterprise.
You have to arrest people.
Interdict the boat.
You can capture the boat.
You know where it is.
You have it on video.
Yeah, I mean, look, Pete Exeth hates, he's paranoid about people leaking to the press.
He's been on a kind of a warpath about this from the beginning.
There's all kinds of reports internally have been worried about who's leaking against him.
He kicked out outlets from their offices to be replaced by people like Newsmax and OAN.
They also like kind of changed where reporters ought to walk in the Pentagon.
So they couldn't go in as many places as if like these reporters were some kind of security threat, as if this hadn't been just sort of policy for a really long time.
And like a good thing, like just a good thing that, hey, like this is the Pentagon, the home of the most powerful military on earth.
Here, journalists can walk around and ask people questions.
Like that's special about us.
That's a beautiful and good thing about us that they don't appreciate.
And so now they're releasing this.
Obviously, the New York Times, the Washington Post, other outlets you would expect said no, but so did Newsmax.
that they didn't wanna sign it.
That was earlier today.
They're refusing to sign it because this is an old line.
Journalism is everything that's unauthorized.
What's authorized is PR, right?
PR is publishing the stuff they want you to say.
Everything else is journalism.
And they're not gonna sign a document.
You can take away people's press passes.
You can tell them they can't go to the briefing, not even holding the briefings anymore.
Anyway, it's not going to stop these people from doing journalism.
They're just going to do it from their fucking phones.
When you're hearing this, it's Tuesday.
They had until the end of the day today.
Well, also it's like you...
In one of these things, the Pentagon doesn't belong to the press.
It belongs to the people.
And I know that Pete Hegseth doesn't understand that the press is meant to be our representative and getting information.
But by the way, he needs to be able to tell the story of what's happening at the Pentagon.
He'll continue to do
And that starts by building trust with major, you know, report news outlets that have the resources still to do journalism about what happens in our foreign policy and what happens in our military.
You know, like there's every week, it seems like J.D.
Vance sits down for another interview.
with a major outlet like NBC or ABC, and then he gets a question he doesn't like, and he's like, why does this even fucking exist?
It's like, you're here, you're here.
You're doing it because like, like it or not, like you don't, you see value in being part, in talking to these people.
And like, Pete can be like waving goodbye.
Like, oh, what a tough guy.
You don't need NBC.
Like you're just doing you're just doing damage to your ability to lead a department that presumably at some point would like to inform the American people about what it's doing, not just the people that are watching OAN, but everybody.
I don't, especially when they like.
kind of giddily talk about how they're going after democratic programs and basically explicitly saying it's leverage.
The Bulwark actually covered one set of cuts that is eliminating our government's capacity to do mental health programs and substance abuse treatment programs.
which is sort of ironic as we were just talking about because they're claiming in order to protect America from drugs, they can kill a narco terrorists from the sky, but they're eliminating the programs that have helped reduce opioid deaths, which actually happened from 2023 to 2024, which actually a great, I mean, still too many, but a good thing.
But now they're decimating the programs that actually help people who are addicted to those drugs.
But we only know that because reporters are piecing it together because this is so ham-fisted and haphazard and they're not really interested in telling us what they're doing.
No, everything that they're doing is only underscoring that while this is a fight over healthcare, this is an administration that is lawless and doing kind of an authoritarian takeover.
It should only make people more resolved to continue holding a line on healthcare at the very least.
This seems to me more in the kind of like quotidian way in which administrations during shutdowns and outside of them kind of like blur the lines and kind of move money around semi-legally.
Like Trump, in the way that like, you know, there was a Congress passed a law that said after a shutdown,
People have to get paid what they missed.
The law is crystal clear.
And so the signed in 2019, 2019 by Donald Trump.
And the OMB puts out OMB under Russ vote, puts out a memo saying, actually, the law doesn't say that because if you read this clause a certain way, Congress has to actually say to pay people back.
which doesn't really make sense because the whole purpose of the law is to make sure people are paid back after a shutdown.
If Congress has to also say it, then you don't need the law that was passed specifically to do this.
It makes absolutely no sense.
But they're putting out the draft memo.
To intimidate people, to make people think they might not get back pay, to kind of make the shutdown more painful, to make Democrats feel like they're responsible for more pain.
The kind of moving money around to pay troops fine, trying to kind of lawlessly figure out ways to hurt people.
That is exactly why it was necessary to kind of draw the line on this shutdown.
Yeah, it doesn't feel like what it would have.
It feels like it's less of a like concentrating event than it was in the past.
Like in previous shutdowns, it was like that was all the news was shutdown day, whatever.
Like everything was focused on that.
I do think part of this is just like Trump is a chaos agent.
There's a lot of shit happening.
You've got mass ICE agents on the streets causing chaos.
You've got your troop deployments.
You have what's happening in the Middle East.
You have just the, he's charging his political enemies.
You look at the list of things and like, yes, it's not getting as much attention.
I wonder the same thing, because I do feel it, like, which is like, this used to be a bigger deal.
I mean, it is true that over the years, they've kind of chipped it.
They've like, they've passed laws to make shutdowns less impactful, right?
Like to allow certain checks to go out, to provide capacity.
So like it has, because it is, it's a smaller share of the government than what it used to be.
I mean, last, you know, shutdown in the 90s,
That's where shit went down.
I mean, that changed the course of history, that one in 1998.
This is where it's like, it's constant.
Like, like what, what, what was the, what was the like precipitating incident to cause him to say this, to walk it back?
It causes the stock market to do a dip and then recover.
You wonder who's making money.
on that, who's aware he's going to do that, who's aware that he's going to undo it.
He's a chaos agent in the markets.
And now it's like, once again, who knows, right?
He threatens this thing.
He sees the market.
He realizes it goes too far.
And some of it, by the way, you look at Trump in
in this sort of summit that he's called together.
And you see all these leaders talking.
There was one moment caught where he's talking to one of these leaders and that leader brings up meeting with Eric.
Oh, Indonesia, right?
And then you have leaders kind of going up there and saying, God, we got to get this fucking guy the Nobel Peace Prize.
He made a joke at Norway's expense, which I thought he handled it fine.
Better than bombing Norway over this.
But it's just all so personal.
So you just never fucking know.
She nailed that one.
I like that Tina Fey, somehow the accent runs from North Dakota to Alaska.
Sort of like one kind of loose mountain accent.
Yeah, it was basically.
No, I didn't see it.
No, but I doubt they would play it in Minneapolis.
I feel like Minneapolis is such a bastion.
Yeah, in the evening.
Yeah, I talked about it.
Love it or leave it.
For a brief flickering moment, LAX was the best airport in Los Angeles.
It was only those four hours.
Yeah, Hannah texted me and was like, have you seen these reports?
Are we really going to do this?
My flight was delayed getting back here today, but only because a pilot called in sick.
So I can't really blame Noam for that.
Yeah, because it's like...
It is such a, like, it's a small thing.
It doesn't really matter.
Do I think that, like, you're going to really get people on the line at the airport to say, like, you know what?
I am going to change my party registration.
Democrats are a bunch of fucking assholes.
You know, like, I'm not really that worried about it, but there's such a, like...
There was like a meme going around that said, hey, like I have a theory, everybody's 12.
And it's like, why are people eating only red meat and french fries?
Because they're 12.
Like, oh, there's crime, we should put the army on it.
You're 12, you know?
And it's like, oh, like you're mad at the Democrats and you're ahead of the Homeland Security.
You can make a video and show it to everybody.
And you're really mad, you're gonna express it.
And you're like, you're 12.
You're supposed to be a fucking adult.
Jokes aside, but it's it's there's something about like.
Mike Johnson saying it's a hate America rally, or Kristi Noem feeling like, you know what, I'm gonna make a video where I blame the Democrats and I'm gonna play it at all the airports.
I didn't realize how important forbearance was.
We talk about the way in which Republicans are shameless all the time and how powerful shame was as a way of preventing terrible politics, but there was also just this idea that, you know what, I may be mad, I may be angry, I might fight Democrats annoying, I may wanna beat them,
but I can be a little bit reserved and I can not say everything and go all the way because we're sharing a country.
And there'll be a Democrat in this job one day and presumably I would rather them not attack Republicans on the screens while you're waiting to go through the airport.
That said, when you're waiting in line at the airport and you see the person responsible for the line, I don't think it's always helpful.
Really good point, I know.
Like when Eric Garcetti used to welcome you at LAX, he'd be like, we got to get rid of it.
Truly the worst idea he's ever had.
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Joining us now, she's the co-executive director of Indivisible, one of the organizations behind this weekend's No Kings protest.
Leah Greenberg, welcome to the pod.
So the last No Kings protest was on June 14th.
It was time to counter Trump's military parade.
Several million people turned out.
It was genuinely surprising just how much enthusiasm there was.
Maybe that is a poor reflection on me.
I don't know how surprised you are by the turnout.
But what led to the second No Kings protest?
What is this organized around?
So you've been getting a lot of free press.
Mike Johnson called called it a hate America rally.
Why do why do you hate America?
Yeah, so speaking of that, we've seen this effort to tie a whole bunch of peaceful, progressive organizations to a nefarious organization they're calling Antifa, claiming that all these disparate groups are connected and inciting terrorism and violence.
That is obviously chilling, right?
And then it turns out Indivisible is specifically named as one of the groups potentially being investigated.
What was your reaction to that?
And are there any signs that this is anything beyond just something in a document somewhere inside the White House or the Justice Department?
So, yes, I hear that.
they could try to hurt organizations with process, right?
Indivisible is an incredible organization that popped up in response to Donald Trump.
And it has mobilized people and it has engaged people entirely peaceful in every way humanly possible.
But that wouldn't stop them from trying to put the government on organizations they don't like.
And I am genuinely curious.
I think that two things can be true.
One, you have to be defiant of something like this and not allow it to change what you're doing.
Well, at the same time,
And organizations on the left need to be ready and buttoned up and figure out how they're going to be prepared for anything that may come.
And I just want to understand how you're preparing.
So let's talk about what that looks like because we've seen millions of people come out at the previous protests.
I hope we see the same this weekend.
I'll be out there.
I think a lot of people at Crooked are going to be out there.
We're all going to be.
The first time, it was an incredibly inspiring day because you saw all these people showing up for No Kings that was aligning with a bunch of unions that were coming out and that had been protesting with immigration groups that had come out and were protesting.
It was entirely peaceful, patriotic.
It was a beautiful thing to see.
There's two big reasons, big corporations, colleges, law firms, media organizations capitulate to Trump.
One, they give him power he couldn't take, right?
They are afraid of him and they bend.
The other is that they're not afraid of the opposition, that they don't view the vast number of Americans who don't wanna live in a autocracy as any kind of political problem they have to worry about.
We've seen signs that that can change.
There was a lot of pressure on Disney over Kimmel.
But for the most part, they haven't been wrong that Trump is a bigger political problem than those that don't like Trump in terms of consumers and their reaction.
How do you make sure, or how do you transform this incredible enthusiasm that you have helped reveal and show, make clear that exists around No Kings?
How do we turn that into actual political actions, turn that enthusiasm into specific pressure points and changes?
Yeah, it's interesting.
There's a vicious circle that certainly Democratic leaders, they just don't have a lot of trust.
either morally, right?
They're not viewed as sort of morally courageous leaders.
And they're not seen as sort of strategic masterminds.
And so they have neither kind of strategic or kind of moral trust.
And so people look around, they don't see people doing things.
A lot of the times, you've helped prove a big exception.
And they look up and they don't really trust what they're hearing from above, right?
But you can imagine a virtuous circle where
an organization that produces something like No Kings can direct people into a specific action.
People heard about Friends and others and people online canceling Disney Plus.
Suddenly there's something that was happening organically.
And I guess my question is, how do we get that next step, right?
This is our second No Kings protest.
I'm very excited about it.
How do we then turn this into, what's the political action we get this big group of people to take next?
And to your point, right?
Why did we end up in?
Why were Democratic leaders willing to?
go hard for a shutdown.
They did it in part because they felt pressure from their voters who said, hey, I need to see a fight from you.
And to their credit, right, there are a lot of people that were critical, I think, of making the fight about healthcare.
There's some people that thought there shouldn't be a shutdown.
There's some people that thought the fight needed to be over the entirety of the authoritarian takeover.
But they focused on this issue, and it does seem to have Republicans on their heels.
You have helped put together with a bunch of organizations what is going to be a ton of people, patriotic people who love this country and don't want to see what's happening to it continue, who are peaceful, who are going to show up with kids and with dogs and with signs.
And then you have Republicans like
Trump and Mike Johnson and all these other people claiming it's some sort of hate America Antifa radical riot.
There may be places where random people decide to, you know, throw a trash can, set something on fire.
they're going to try to use those examples.
Or there may be other people that show up to try to turn protests into something chaotic and dangerous, right?
How do we respond to that?
How do we make sure that everyone understands that the No Kings protest is a peaceful action by people wanting to make their voices heard?
Leah Greenberg, thank you so much for your time.
Everybody get out there this weekend.
We will see you out there.
It's going to be fun.
I'm going to bring a dog or a sign.
It's probably gonna be a dog.
uh to what end for what purpose like they're trying to get out of about before the pakistanis find us it's filled with trend de aragua well that's the other thing they're like we were actually doing this to get gang members they've released no information about that they can't be trusted they said a bunch of people who were innocent were gang members when they shipped them off uh to uh el salvador so we're we can't take their their word for it all we do see are images of americans and legal
residents being bound up and complaining about this happening in their building.
It's a completely ridiculous outside show of force, which they're doing for the cameras to make their fascist agitprop.
And, you know, the defense, they're going to release information at some point saying, look at all these people that Democrats wish were still in these buildings as if it is not possible for our laws to be enforced without a Blackhawk helicopter over an American city and people rappelling down onto the roof.
Like not black, hot helicopters.
It's a five-story building, by the way.
This isn't like two apartment buildings.
This isn't this year's tower.
Yeah, the other thing too is it's all predicated.
They do have a siege mentality now, right?
These ICE officers themselves feel like they're under siege.
They've internalized that.
Stephen Miller's whole like, there's a country under siege, our side is under siege.
And so they respond with siege-like tactics.
And who does that work for?
Well, it works fully for people that are only imbibing information in their ecosystem, right?
the reports about how these cities are in turmoil and in crisis.
And then they see positive reports from Kristi Noem and all these people defending what they're doing.
If you're outside of that bubble, you see a mix, right?
You see what these guys are claiming.
You see the local leader saying that this is ridiculous.
You see footage of Portland and Chicago being normal places.
Yes, there are areas where there've been like a few blocks of protests, even unruly and protests that have turned chaotic and even violent.
But for the most part, of course, this is ridiculous.
And so then you end up with like the vast majority of Americans in these polling saying, look,
I certainly wouldn't want it in my city, right?
And they may not trust Democrats to enforce either immigration laws or to be strong on crime, right?
They see Democrats as weak, that's in the CBS poll, but they certainly don't want this crackdown.
A list he approved that came across his desk.
There was a moment, too, where in one press conference, Kodak talks about talking to Trump.
And Trump's like, oh, well, we'll just keep talking.
He's very kind of like convivial on the phone.
The ruling, by the way, like it's just I recommend reading at least excerpts of it.
It's like a beautiful piece of logic.
And it's actually pretty conservative.
It goes through the case methodically and not with any kind of grand hyperbole, but it just starts from principle.
And what I appreciate about it is two things.
One, uses these exact kind of words from Trump against him, where she basically says, this is not a good faith.
Look at how he's describing Portland.
That is not what's happening on the ground.
And the other part of it is, you know, there's been a lot of question about how deferential
courts have to be to trump these words they're not defined insurrection rebellion right and she's very careful of saying yes the president gets a great deal of deference of course but deference is not equivalent to ignoring the facts on the ground and i do think that's really important because even if you are being deferential to the president
No, like you do not have to be so open minded that your brain falls out of your head.
There's no insurrection.
The laws are still operating.
The courts are still operating.
This is ridiculous on its face.
And you can be deferential to the executive on these matters without giving into that.
It's just a very careful argument, including asking as to whether or not this fits into a permitted range of honest judgment, which, by the way, is not just about this law.
It's also about the Insurrection Act, which I know we're going to talk about, but I do think is important.
It's unbelievable, right?
That if you refer to any of this as fascist, you're inciting violence.
Meanwhile, the left is an organized terror movement.
Our opponents are an enemy within fascism.
The cities are war zones and a training ground for the military.
Judges who rule against us are legal insurrectionists.
And by the way, these are just facts.
And if you don't see that, you're the one that's being emotional.
I can't tell what to make of... Steve, look, there are all kinds of members of the administration that are saying Kristi Noem kind of is extreme.
there's all different versions of this, but Stephen Miller does stand apart, I think, in the rhetoric that he's using, in the extremism, in the language he's using.
And I really can't tell, like, is he the boy who cried terrorism, right?
Is he like making this all feel less real, even to his own side, right?
Like, does it all feel like it's not going to lead to anything?
And or is this just a preview of things to come, that now it all feels so crazy and then all of a sudden they start treating these as facts and go from there, including insurrect, like calling the judges insurrectionists is not an accident.
And he knows the bounds of what he it is rhetorical because he knows the bounds of where he's not getting ahead of Trump, because actually in one of these interviews, he's responding to a question about whether he should be if the president should be ignoring or breaking the rulings that judges say.
And he goes, no, I'm just saying factually accurate things.
I'm just saying what the facts are and these are legal insurrections.
But that no is pretty important, right?
Like he's not getting ahead of the president on that.
I mean, look, there's the legal scholars for a long time have said the Insurrection Act is ridiculously broad and needs to be reformed.
Not our biggest obstacle.
But that's like when I was 18.
When gay marriage wasn't legal, like that wasn't my obstacle to marriage in the same way.
But there are multiple parts of the Insurrection Act.
Some of them require state buy-in.
Some of them are broader than others.
I don't want to like play down the dangers of the president invoking the Insurrection Act.
At the same time, if you go back and look at the warnings of how a president could use the Insurrection Act, warnings from 2022, 2021, right, what you find is a description of what Trump has already done.
And it seems like what they like is the idea of signaling that the Insurrection Act is some final boss for the Libs, right?
And the other part of this, and Brennan Center talks about this, legal scholars talk about this, there is no martial law in this country.
Even if there's military in our streets, you still have your constitutional rights.
And the court has held that.
The idea that the Insurrection Act is sort of beyond judicial review is just not true.
I'm not saying it's a great day, but as I said, the ruling from that judge on the president deploying National Guard references the ruling that says there are limits on the invocation of the Insurrection Act as well.
So it's scary, but like it's not some get out of court free card for them.
I'd also just say I've seen that distinction and maybe that could turn out to be very important.
But if you look at the way in which Stephen Miller and others are describing what they're already allowed to do, they've actually left behind the idea that they're just guarding buildings because now they can be there in support of law enforcement operations.
Yes, but even still, it's like, okay, they are hiring vast numbers of new ICE agents.
That will be the vanguard for all of this.
We're talking about a distinction.
Okay, if the Insurrection Act is invoked, if you have troops, but without the radicalized ICE agents with them, is that better?
Yeah, all I'm saying is that we've already gone so far.
I don't think anyone knows what it would mean for the president to invoke the Insurrection Act, but we already have troops on the ground, not just to defend federal buildings, but anywhere there's ICE, which is everywhere.
Yeah, and I do think to Tommy's point, he's kind of been stuck in the same place for a long time.
You look at this CBS poll and most people view Republicans as extreme and strong and Democrats as weak.
And so maybe they don't like this, but they don't trust us.
And so we think it's bad for him, but maybe it reflects a weakness on us as well.
By the same token, every image of Trump and talking about how we're gonna liberate the city of Chicago and Kristi Noem saying they wouldn't let me do a deployment at a facility that I needed to get into.
is another moment where Trump is not talking about any issue that people cared about.
This poll had 75% of people saying Trump is not focusing on lowering prices enough, which is correct, and like a pretty devastating problem for him that is not solved by more attention on these issues, even if this issue is better for him than others.
I also honestly think that they have a kind of deeper and smarter relationship to like polling than a lot of Democrats do, because they understand that you can lose on specific issues and specific questions for a long time while building up credibility
in a broader way, in a deeper way that's harder to measure.
And like, I just, how have they not been validated by that over the years?
So that's what I think is part of this too.
It's not gonna be like a big ice raid event.
Let's not say things we'll regret.
They can't actually just say, like, imagine Kristi Noem saying,
He said some stuff I don't agree with, but the NFL is free to do what it wants.
It's like, it's inconceivable for them at this point to like brook any kind of dissent.
Like you say, you say, all right, like the media is, you just got, you got CBS, you know, CBS belongs to you.
You have Twitter, you have social media.
You have a lot of, you have a lot of the NFL's fucking fans.
There's a, there's a halftime show.
Is there not one thing for the fucking gays and days?
I thought Benny Johnson was going to do something for only the fans.
He's going to do something for only America fans.
So, first of all, it's funny to think, what page is he on?
I will say like that, there's been a lot of debate about like,
know are democrats doing better in the shutdown that people expect there's reasons for optimism's reason not to have optimism this was the the best reason for optimism i've seen because whatever he's thinking whatever's going on he is feeling the politics around a shutdown that is now over health care and he's really helping making that true he's acknowledging that he said because i think it's about health care and like that was part of it we didn't get that part but they first asked him what do you think he's like i think the shutdown's about health care
Pretty valuable, pretty great.
And it's also a reminder that Trump is interested in Trump.
When that means standing shoulder to shoulder with Republicans in Congress, he will do that.
If he views his interests as being different, he will ignore them, damage their position.
He doesn't have ideological commitments.
He just wants a good deal and to seem like a winner and to have as many people behind him as possible.
So that's what I took from that.
Could it lead to anything?
Well, immediately you have, you know, Johnson and Dune figuring out how to get out of this leading to anything.
And then you have Schumer and Jeffrey saying, no, we're not talking to Trump, but saying they're open to it.
So I assume once this conversation, once Trump was done talking, the phone was already on, was already, it already rung and they'd already been walked back internally at least.
Jeffries and Schumer are going to have to, like, do a paper drop like it's North Korea.
Like, they're trying to get information into Pyongyang.
I think the polling is good if you thought Democrats were going to be blamed the way Republicans were blamed in a previous shutdown.
If you didn't come to it with that knowledge, I don't know you'd feel super great about a poll that says Trump, congressional Republicans, and congressional Dems all are around 30% in their approval for other handling a government shutdown.
Like a poll where half the country thinks you're making a mistake.
only half of Democrats think your position is worth a shutdown.
Like, I think that's better than it could be.
And I think we're in a better position than we should be.
And then Republicans should be at, but it's not like great.
You know, honestly, we've tried losing on issues for a while.
Maybe we try winning for once.
It's better than losing.
The other thing I would say, I would go further than just to say like, oh, Democrats shouldn't cave.
You look at this, and we talked about it briefly earlier, but like,
If you ask people, 64% think Democrats are weak and 59% think Republicans are extreme.
Healthcare is an issue right now where if we hold the line, like we are painting Republicans as extreme.
And if we cave, we are giving into the idea that we are weak.
If we hold the line, there's an issue where we can prove our bona fide, say that we fought for something.
Maybe we win, maybe we don't.
The benefits on policy plus like proving to people that we're willing to fight, take a stand and actually get something for people like I think that is worth taking an issue off the table.
Maybe that's bad politics.
I don't think anybody knows.
But given that nobody knows, wouldn't we rather like have a win than not?
Yeah, I don't think we know what the world's going to feel like a week from now.
I would say right now, there's a lot of alarms not going off.
Democrats feel like they're on offense.
Republicans feel like they're on defense.
That is the feeling when you look at the stories coming out of the lack of negotiation.
You have Mike Johnson saying, if a deal comes from the Senate side, we won't take it up, which is something you have to say to guard your flank against something coming out of the Senate.
There's just Trump taking these questions and saying he's open to a deal.
puts Thune and Johnson on defense in a way that like, I think is like, you know, shows Democrats playing a pretty weak hand better than you would have thought a week ago.
So where will be a week?
Yeah, I go, we've gone back and forth a million times, but I look at this and it's like, it's a core question, right?
Do you want to pick a fight you have a possibility of winning?
Or are you trying to pick a fight you cannot win because you think it's important for the long term?
And right now, the Democrats chose, right?
They chose the fight over something they could win.
My view right now is play that to the end.
Try to get a win on healthcare.
Let's prove to people we can fight and win.
Like you look at what happens with Kimmel, right?
There's all these, there was a kind of almost organic protest and had a simple demand.
Put Kimmel back, we'll get Disney Plus again, right?
And it's a win and it shows people that we're a political force.
Well, it's small, I know, I know.
I know, but in the face of kind of like,
I know it's just sort of like we have to be a political force that has power and leverage.
And that does mean like we're not just casting about for a kind of a year's long fight.
Like we're going to we're going to find a hinge and we're going to use it.
And like to me, we've chosen that already.
They're already eroding it bit by bit while claiming it's still there.
Yeah, and I would, yes, the polling has been reassuring, but also California is a big place that's hard to poll, and I just worry about money coming in at the end.
Yeah, mega dark money is scary.
There's a ton of mailers coming in.
And you're doing this for the fans?
What are you going to wear on your feet, you think?
Can I quickly plug my Riyadh comedy festival?
Well, yeah, it's the anniversary.
Also, one issue that's happening in California, too, is, look, redistricting is great, but also states like California have been losing population to Texas and Florida and others, and we can't redistrict our way out of California not building enough affordable housing.
And so I'm very glad Gavin is pursuing that.
Prop 50, he has not yet signed, as of this recording on Monday night, SB 79, which will allow people to build more housing near transit and help address our housing crisis.
So if you're hearing this and you think Evan Newsom should sign it, I would suggest posting about it or giving him a call because I do think it matters here in the homestretch.
So there's a lot of pressure, especially from L.A., especially from our mayor, Karen Bass, who wants Newsom to veto it.
She claims she's for affordable housing and we've got to build more housing.
But this law will go too far and it doesn't allow for historical buildings and all these exceptions.
Los Angeles currently is not even on track to build half of the housing we've promised to build.
It's actually about a third.
We said we'd build 456,000 units.
Near that, we are just completely failing.
I'll get the stats slightly wrong, but we've seen the lowest number of housing starts and construction in Los Angeles in more than a decade.
We're just, the city is failing.
It does not deserve the trust.
But he's under a lot of pressure.
Look, I think Prop 50, fighting Trump, those are unifying and galvanizing issues.
This is a slightly divided issue because this is about taking on parts of your own coalition and saying, you know what?
I get that there are problems.
But like, yeah, there are democratic interests that want this to be vetoed.
And so the goal is not just for him to sign it.
I believe he will sign it.
It's to sign it unequivocally without any kind of using bureaucracy to limit it in any way.
And that to me is what is important.
And it's actually, I think, an important test for him because like, oh, great, you're tough when you're fighting Trump.
Like we need somebody that not just doesn't just want to fight Trump, but understands that Democrats have to like
be willing to take on our own to like actually do hard governing.
And like, and, and Karen Bass.
Karen Bass, who has like, like I would say like a mixed record on housing.
She signed some good EOs.
Then she watered them down.
Like she's done some stuff.
Some of the best, some of, some of the building that is happening in Los Angeles is beyond some of these affordable housing buildings.
executive order she signed.
But still like this is such an abdication.
The city council, most of them, Nithya and others did vote against the city council, which was great.
But they are just completely abdicating their responsibility and hoping somebody else solves it.
This is the way to solve it.
He has to fucking sign the thing.
I don't think it's going to be.
Oh, I was talking about intercourse, Tommy.
I was talking about fucking.
That's what I was saying.
A deal so good is spooky.
And Lovett, you have an announcement?
Yes, there is a new series that just launched today on the Love It or Leave It feed.
It is called, for legal reasons,
Love It or Leave It presents, colon, Bravo America.
I'm interviewing some of the biggest icons in reality TV.
That starts with Dr. Terry Dubrow of Botched and The Swan and Real Housewives of Orange County.
They've obviously been turning off my brain at night and watching Bravo and other reality shows.
And I do think you really can't understand politics in this moment unless you understand the world of these shows and why it is more important to be interesting and hated than boring and good.
But so Dubrow is really interesting and
He talks about how the parts of filming Bravo shows, including Real Housewives that he fucking hates.
And he's a pretty shockingly honest about his take on some of the Real Housewives, which was interesting.
But more than that, like this series is about figuring out
reality TV, how it changed TV, and then how it changed our culture, and then how it changed politics.
It actually, one of the reasons I wanted to do it is because when we talked to Sarah McBride, remember she talked about feeling as though these Republicans want to be on a Bravo show.
And obviously Trump is a reality star.
I'm also one as well, famously.
Terry Dubrow, who's great.
I talked to Dorinda Medley.
I talked to Parvati Shala, who gave me some tips about how to do better on Survivor.
And there'll be many others.
Some we haven't announced.
I can't do fucking worse.
It's on the Love It or Leave It feed right now.
I am very excited about these conversations.
They were, every single time we finished one, like the producer and I have been like amazed by what we've been hearing from some of these people about what it's like to be on these shows and what they've learned.
And so please check it out.
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Yeah, we're on the brink of it.
You know, Senator Eric Schmidt referred to Guatemalan sex changes, but the ones that J.D.
Vance is concerned about seem to be taking place in Peru.
This is interesting.
Yeah, it's just sort of a I didn't just not aware of Medicaid covering all of these Latin American gender affirming.
That's USAID cuts.
I guess because he also referred to DEI in Burma, Eric Schmidt did.
Just as a note, they really will never acknowledge what they actually passed.
in the one big beautiful bill.
They never, like no Democrat, just the out and out lie of Democrats are trying to use a trillion dollars or $1.5 trillion for undocumented immigrants, just brazen and false and makes me actually more receptive.
Like we've all debated whether or not healthcare was the right fight, but the way it plays out when they talk about it after makes it feel like it's more the right fight just because the Republicans are so willing to lie about it.
Yeah, if you stand still enough in the Republican Party, you will be the reasonable one.
Right, that's true.
It's just a matter of how long you wait.
So I just want to say that I feel like I don't know.
And I watched your conversation with Faz and Matt Glassman.
I thought they were both very smart.
I came away more uncertain.
Like I will say though, I also came away with a better appreciation for why healthcare might've been the right choice because there was a debate, should it be about democracy or should it be about tariffs?
And I do see one argument for why healthcare is the right fight is it is a place where you could see some concessions not feeling like a dramatic identity ego wound to Trump, right?
Like there is the possibility of an ACA
Whether it comes in this debate or this negotiation or the one that would follow the CR, where I find myself nervous is the way in which the strategy and leverage around the kind of old school, normal political leverage gets muddied with what Tommy's talking about.
And so you have- What part of what Tommy's talking about?
So you have- Mike Johnson's height.
You have just the old school, Mike Johnson's height, Mike Johnson being a short king.
So you have the old school sort of negotiation around a shutdown, who's gonna give in, the party in power is forcing the votes, the party that's out of power that's making the demands is seen as unreasonable.
There's also, I think it still counts as normal politics, gonna be the question of how long the filibuster holds, which I think is not getting enough attention in this, given that Republicans in just the past, what, two weeks,
undid part of the filibuster and they've been playing a lot of games when they pass the one big beautiful bill.
I don't think that's been getting enough conversation as to what happens in a multi-week shutdown as Republicans come up with some way in which they can honor Thune's promise to not get rid of the filibuster on legislation while creating yet another exception and passing whatever the fuck they want, making our negotiation even harder for the longer term spending bill to come.
I'm worried about that.
But then that gets combined with Donald Trump can start firing people.
Donald Trump can target his political enemies.
And there's two problems with that.
One, he's already doing that.
He's already doing that.
And so he will do that regardless.
He did not need a shutdown.
But I do think the concern goes beyond, oh, he's going to have these added authorities, which he does have.
He's going to abuse his office even further during a shutdown to speed up what he's already done when the government is open.
And I do think it's a trap to concede that that's leverage against us because it allows his extra legal powers to make him more powerful in the actual situation.
And I do think it's important to not concede on that front.
But even if you don't concede anything on that front, Democrats are just in a really tough position.
But yeah, I don't know.
I also just like, is that right?
Like, let's say Democrats fight on health care.
They get some kind of a concession.
It reverses some chunk of the ACA clawbacks on the subsidies.
They declare a victory.
We're still hammering Republicans next year on health care.
We can claim we force them to do this.
And to the point that Faz made in your conversation, like,
People don't like Donald Trump.
They don't know what Democrats stand for.
They haven't seen Democrats stand up and fight.
And here's a moment where Democrats are standing up and fighting for something.
And then you say, well, that's not the real central galvanizing concern.
Like our democracy is under threat.
So we should fight across everything.
But fighting across everything, I do think all but guarantees, right, that Republicans
justify getting rid of the filibuster by saying Democrats will never give us their votes.
We want to reopen the government.
Then we've lost any leverage we have to do some good in negotiation over health care.
And you're right.
In some sense, helping Republicans out of the ACA subsidy shortfall does kind of get rid of a political disaster for them.
That's a tough position for us to take, that we want to teach the controversy.
I know, I know, I know.
When I talked to Warren about this, I asked her version of this question, and her point was just like, we have to prove we can win a fight.
We can win something here.
This is the issue.
There is a place where there is a path to some kind of a genuine victory for Democrats.
And it would be nice to use what limited power we have before the Republicans decide to take it away
to use it to prove that we can actually do something.
And like, I worried the same way Faz is worried about the fact that our leaders in this feel as though they're being pushed towards it.
That is a problem.
Like there's all kinds of reasons this is not ideal.
I don't like any of the options, but I am coming around to why if we can get a victory here, it's the one place we could.
Now then the question is, was this the right time?
A ticking clock around these subsidies is going to fall in November, December.
The subsidies end on January 1st, right?
This bill is just to carry you through to the bigger negotiation to come.
Was this CR the right moment?
We'll see what happens.
Talk about your workflow and daily movement habits.
You know, John, Tommy and I share an office.
And that's perfect.
But we're constantly, I would say like one of our big challenges is we're constantly in and out of our office for random meetings.
And we now all have uplift desks in our office and we use it all the time.
Like we're just constantly like it's, we're constantly, you hear the noise.
We're just constantly moving up and down.
Sometimes we're sitting, sometimes we're upright.
We love our uplift desks.
You got to just change your like, you just change.
I got to get a different vibe.
Let's raise this thing up before I write this tweet.
Anyway, it's very stable.
It has fast assembly.
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I think, you know, broken clock.
It's so brazen, right?
Like he, he, he, he...
Spell it on shells, buddy.
I was saying this to the guys before, but if ultimately I do end up sharing a cell with James Comey, just know I did kill myself.
But this, like, the brazenness of it, right?
He posts over the weekend, we're not going quickly enough after my enemies.
He gets this guy Siebert out of there.
He appoints this unqualified person who's a loyalist into this job, the looming deadline of the statute of limitations.
This person comes in, gets the indictment together, despite the fact that the declination memo from the Department of Justice said there's not enough evidence to charge, and rams this thing through, couldn't even get all the indictments done in front of a grand jury, and that anyone,
Anyone who can say, look, all the fucking Trump loyalists love it.
They think it's great.
He's going after his enemies.
So I think that anyone is trying to do any kind of defense of this is so fucking embarrassing.
It is so obvious and brazen.
It's the most brazen thing any of us ever seen.
I've ever seen at the Department of Justice.
There's no even pretense that this is anything other than a political prosecution.
It's happening right in front of our eyes.
It's fucking nuts.
And then Haugen is like, I object.
Did I do that right?
Yeah, it's absurd on its face.
James Comey, not a perfect person.
The guy is fucking by the book and he was going to testify honestly.
Maybe he's parsing his words.
Maybe he's being careful, but the guy was being honest.
And then also occasionally extremely not by the book, like announcing investigations days before an election.
But the thing that I'm coming back to is, you know,
The Bill Pulte, the Trump housing aide, starts drumming up mortgage fraud czar.
He keeps drumming up mortgage fraud allegations against everyone from Adam Schiff to Lisa Cook.
And then people go through and like, actually, look, see, Lisa Cook maybe didn't do this.
And maybe this person didn't do this.
And like people should do that.
They should dig into whether these allegations are fair or not.
But it is beside the point.
So Ruth Marcus posted an excerpt from this speech by Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson.
It was about being a prosecutor.
And I thought it was really well said.
It said, we know that no local police force can strictly enforce the traffic laws or would arrest half the driving population on any given morning.
With the law books filled with a great assortment of crimes, a prosecutor stands a fair chance of finding at least a technical violation
of some act on the part of almost anyone.
It is in this realm in which the prosecutor picks some person whom he dislikes or desires to embarrass or selects some group of unpopular persons and then looks for an offense that the greatest danger of abuse of prosecutorial power lies."
That is the threat.
You can dig into anyone.
You can find a technical violation on the part of anyone.
That's why this is dangerous.
Whether or not people want to parse and say, well, maybe Comey did lie, even though that's bullshit.
is it is giving into what is so obviously dangerous about what the Trump administration is doing.
They are finding the people and then looking for the crime, not the other way around.
Yeah, the trick they all have to pull here is that Trump wasn't indicted because he's unusual.
Trump was indicted because Democrats went too far.
Trump was indicted because he broke the law.
Joe Biden's Department of Justice did not behave like Trump's Department of Justice.
There is no post by Joe Biden saying, go after my enemies.
It's more, okas, okas, okas.
And so you end up like they're trying to claim somehow that, well,
You know, we saw them target people like Donald Trump.
But Joe Biden's DOJ also prosecuted Hunter Biden.
Because he was always going to pardon him.
view it themselves as having no choice they have to do his bidding or they get pushed out so yeah yeah i think i think like there's a little bit of both the future you know we don't want to be like fatalistic yeah i think they're one but they could also just they can try to steal they cannot do it well they cannot do yeah but he's the people that won't do it are now all being fired and the people that will do it are being put in place i look i think it's somewhere in between i think there are people that aren't are are open to the idea that donald trump has no choice but to stay in office
And it's a sad state of affairs that we have a Democratic Party that has become an agent of terrorists and we have no choice.
I think there are people that are working their way towards that for sure.
A lot of these people are just one day ahead.
Well, the other part of this is, you know, the other side of for my enemies, the laws for my friends, everything.
And so it's also the pardons and all the rest that feeds into this.
But the pardon power remains.
And we do not need to concede that there will never be a Democratic president again and a Democratic president.
And so Democrats will be able to reverse any political prosecutions that happen under a public administration.
And I don't know how open.
We'll have to be about that or should be about that.
But as we get closer, I think like the more brazen Trump is, the more honest we have to be about the fact that part of our job is to kind of clear out the brazen politicization of these prosecutions, including people convicted for them.
Well, there's blowback online about it from the right.
There's blowback online saying, well, look, I thought Trump was going to go hard and they're going to they're going to use all the full force.
Then all of a sudden there's one little incident of somebody finally standing up for ice and then.
We're off to the races.
Yeah, I think that's right.
And I think it'll feed into what we're about to talk about, which is I do think they want the conflict a little bit between Democratic governors saying, get out of our cities and Trump saying, I'm just here to protect our, you know, you're giving your cities over to these violent Antifa protesters and we're going to stand up to it.
And then these places become flashpoints where they can use the images to forward the debate about the left and the broader sort of claim that this is a mass – that smear half the country as being part of some vast violent movement.
Yeah, without us even being there.
The federal deployments becoming a flashpoint for protest, which then are used to justify why the federal deployments were there in the first place, this sort of vicious circle, is exactly what they want.
It's what they got in LA, even as much as it may have blown back on them.
Sorry, that did sound like my sentence was not continuing.
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Yeah, so first of all, the kind of branding it is NSPM 7 and declaring it.
Look, I am loathe to use a Star Wars reference, but that really does feel like a reference to Order 66.
And I'm sorry to be a person doing that.
I know you don't, and that's okay.
But you should learn.
You should learn.
Maybe that new AirPods that translate can help you.
But he's always situating his conduct in this sort of a grand nationalist history.
You know, you always feel that, like, this is NSPM 7, a great historic moment in the history of our fight against the leftists.
Which is an ironic term, right?
Because it's like, isn't he trying, you know, it's like, it's, that sounds like, it sounds like, well, it just sounds like, are you welcoming that kind of culture?
Who are we goring?
Who's getting gored here?
Anyway, what I was going to say is, so the part- Sounds like us.
Throw me out in the clown suit.
Yeah, throw me out in the clown suit.
I'll run distract for you guys.
But part of this is that you read this order, and it has this grandiose language, and then you get into the specifics.
Some of it is extremely vague and hard to understand what it could mean.
I do think that's on purpose.
Tommy pointed to the ways in which it goes after funding.
You get to this moment where it just... You get to this... There's a part where it describes...
what they're characterizing as domestic terrorism.
And it says, the attorney general shall issue specific guidance that ensures domestic terrorism priorities include politically motivated terrorist acts, such as organized doxing campaigns, which by the way, they've included desiring the unmasking, they've described unmasking ICE agents as doxing.
Swatting, rioting, looting, trespass, assault, destruction of property, threats of violence, and civil disorder.
I'm sorry, but like, look, destruction of property can mean a lot of different things.
It can mean burning something.
It could be burning Portland to the ground.
It could be whatever.
It could be anything.
But all of this is meant to be vague, right?
Like it's meant to be like applicable to a wide range of activities.
And just the intimidation that people will feel not knowing what this will apply to, I think is part of what will make it dangerous.
And then you look at this and you say like, well, they could go after anybody with this.
Yes, that's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
And by the way, to hope that if they start digging in based on these these kind of specious reasons, you again, as we talked about earlier, you get into somebody's books, you get into somebody's finances or emails, whatever.
And all of a sudden you've uncovered something that you can use.
Well, by the way, he's saying that Gavin Newsom describing something as authoritarian is a terrorist threat.
This is exactly what we were talking about when we were in the last round of the politicization of these shootings and accusing the entire left of being complicit in a murder, which is, so now if a person has a Trump yard sign, they're deranged, but if they have some evidence of having left views, they are part of a vast left conspiracy.
They will make the motive important
and central to a collective punishment if they don't agree with the person.
But if it's on their side, it's of course a deranged person when really what we see over and over is how people are getting radicalized online, whatever the underlying kind of political views that are part of the justification and like,
We will never figure out how to get out of a cycle like this unless we collectively view these as a shared threat around people taking these sort of violent acts based on radicalization on these forums and wherever else.
But like, you know, Zeynep Tufekci, who you've talked to, talks about like, there's just no, putting this in politics means there's no talk about the contagion of it, right?
We saw like people writing on bullets, right?
That's clearly from one event to the next, there's a surge of these things.
Like violence is contagious.
Like we've learned about this on suicides, on mass shootings, on political violence like this.
Like there is clearly something happening and we can't fucking figure it out because everything is polluted by this, like the way in which they're using this for political
It's also just like all these people,
Everyone has brain rot.
They are watching things online.
They're getting very angry and they're writing it up because they're seeing so much shit online.
It's making them kind of crazy.
And they're like, I have to look at what they're doing and they're getting away with it.
Yeah, I mean, I just, it's more too that like, I am more, I, maybe it's too sociological, but I'm like just looking at people, I'm watching people, I'm watching people that were once, I don't include this person who's, I never knew.
I'm watching people that they were, you know, maybe Trump curious, maybe somewhere in the middle between being anti-Trump.
I think I'm watching people that used to be a bit more reasonable, radicalized in real time.
Like you're watching that happen online.
And I do think it's from people kind of exposing their brain to like the sewer of the internet and getting a warped view of their own side and a warped view of the other side and only seeing, I mean, like the same problems with polarization.
They're not just for people that are voters.
It's for the actual producers of content and influencers and everybody else on these platforms.
Like they're not immune to it and you see it every day.
The fact that it's not just one guy that thought this has made it through a whole editing process and onto the website by a bunch of people who said, yeah, let's get that out there.
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Oh, that'd be cool.
I'm not on any boards.
I wonder if it's paid or unpaid.
Do you think Trump is going to spend more time on the border piece or the Kennedy Center board?
I just was, there was a story in the times in the last couple of days about the IDF moving back into parts of Gaza city, parts that had already been in and then left back and forth.
Like three times.
And now as they're moving through, they're kind of raising whole parts of the city.
and holding territory and not letting it go.
And the beleaguered people that have been there, some of whom are leaving as they're being told, others have no place to go and have left and come back and are now kind of giving up on having anywhere to go or seeing any purpose and kind of leaving.
And it is so ugly.
and evil what is happening and then you have the president and and and bb standing the oval kind of patting each other on the back declaring the greatest day in the history of civilization while while kind of inflicting this collective punishment on gaza even as they say that hamas is responsible and doesn't care what happens to the people of gaza uh because they use the people of gaza like human shield and so like the whole thing is disgusting and uh and that that that's all i got
Because he mispronounced it and then owned them.
Like a couple weeks ago.
Yeah, he was not even part of it.
And all of a sudden, he was thanking Jared on social media.
And you're like, wait, Jared's back?
Walking in with Tony Blair, slapping him on the ass, saying, good job.
He's probably pretty bored.
I was on vacation once in Hawaii and who walks into the restaurant but Benjamin Netanyahu, Tony Blair, and a bunch of other people sitting around the table at that restaurant.
That's a polycule for you.
The politics of the far right were like...
It's cool as long as Donald Trump is for universal fake health care.
But real health care, we're going to cut dramatically.
But fake health care, everybody gets it.
It's going to be amazing.
When you get in your fake med bed and you have your fake card, it's for everybody in our beautiful new hospitals.
Get in that med bed a little bit longer, my friend.
First of all, med beds are also in the film Elysium.
And I do think that- In Prometheus.
Oh yeah, in Prometheus.
I would just say there was a time when conspiracy theorists used to go to the library, pull out the microfiche, put something really interesting together.
And that was a simpler and better time.
But conspiracy theories took some fucking work.
They piece it together.
You had to actually have the string.
And now people see Elysium.
They take a quote from Hunter S. Thompson.
And next thing you know, we got fucking AI med beds.
Yeah, or he's literally scrolling and he's seeing it online.
I'm sure he has a feed and he's seeing stuff and he thinks, oh, this is people saying I'm good at healthcare.
People like me on healthcare.
Yeah, it was a quick re-truth and all of a sudden... Sorry, I said re-truth.
Yeah, remember like that episode of Captain Kangaroo where somebody gets, remember that one?
It's how everything could turn into gold, but actually they didn't seem to have, they had a silver one and then a gold one and the gold one was a different shape and it really bothered me as a little kid, but that's cause my mother took Tylenol.
So the, but she actually did and I texted and asked.
And she's on vacation and won't hear this, so I just want to be clear.
I said, are you sure you didn't take Tylenol?
And she said, nothing, just prenatal vitamins for you and your sister.
Maybe he crushed it and put it in her mashed potatoes because she was complaining.
But the point being, what were we talking about?
So people did find that some of the things attached to the wall are from Home Depot, and it was assumed that they were spray-painted gold.
It is possible that there's someone doing gold leaf.
It could be leaf.
It could be leaf, but it could be spray paint.
We just don't know.
We just don't know.
It is so sad how conspiratorial.
Yeah, that would be fun.
I would love to get in there with the fucking med beds.
It is just so sad.
You think about the people that are falling for this, and it's so conspiratorial and so sad and so isolated.
You have to be so isolated from the world to believe that this is real.
Guys, breaking news.
Just before, that was a lot.
Google-owned video site YouTube will pay $24.5 million to settle a lawsuit brought by Donald Trump over the company's decision to suspend his account in the wake of January 6th.
The agreement says that Trump has directed YouTube to contribute $22 million to help construct the new White House ballroom.
The rest of the money will go to a handful of other plaintiffs who accuse YouTube of censoring them.
I'm sure that's a sundry list of wonderful fucking people getting money from Alphabet.
Or anything else.
I hope that ballroom's nice when it's ready for Trump's third term.
Some really big people did not make time for this today.
They're so busy.
Hey, guys, we get it.
We know on the list it goes Brian Tyler Cohen, the gals in Nebraska, a couple Midas touch guys, maybe somebody who was at the DOJ for Biden.
You know, there's a long list of people that you got to get to.
There's a historian or two on the list.
After that, I don't know.
I don't know what's happening with Atrios, but maybe they're still around.
And then you get to us.
Pod Save America.
Remember FireDogLake?
FireDogLake, what happened to Eshaton?
Are they doing Eshaton before they're doing us?
Joy Reid has a YouTube now.
We're after joy.
Put us wherever you find it.
What about the Aussie guy?
He's doing content because he's ahead of us.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to Pond Save America. I'm John Lovett. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. It's a crossover. It's happening. So we have a lot to get to today, but we wanted to start with this. New York Times broke a story today. We're recording this on Friday, reporting that Elon Musk's drug use has been far more intense than the occasional use previously reported. Here's what the Times said, and I quote...
Hey, everybody. Welcome to Pond Save America. I'm John Lovett. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. It's a crossover. It's happening. So we have a lot to get to today, but we wanted to start with this. New York Times broke a story today. We're recording this on Friday, reporting that Elon Musk's drug use has been far more intense than the occasional use previously reported. Here's what the Times said, and I quote...
Musk told people he was taking so much ketamine, a powerful anesthetic, that it was affecting his bladder, a known effect of chronic use. He took ecstasy and psychedelic mushrooms, and he traveled with a daily medication box that held about 20 pills, including ones with the markings of the stimulant Adderall, according to a photo of the box and people who have seen it.
Musk told people he was taking so much ketamine, a powerful anesthetic, that it was affecting his bladder, a known effect of chronic use. He took ecstasy and psychedelic mushrooms, and he traveled with a daily medication box that held about 20 pills, including ones with the markings of the stimulant Adderall, according to a photo of the box and people who have seen it.
Also, the Times went further into the bladder issue, saying that Musk publicly endorsed Mr. Trump in July. Around that time, Mr. Musk told people that his ketamine use was causing bladder issues, according to people familiar with the conversations. You know, Dan, you think you can trust somebody.
Also, the Times went further into the bladder issue, saying that Musk publicly endorsed Mr. Trump in July. Around that time, Mr. Musk told people that his ketamine use was causing bladder issues, according to people familiar with the conversations. You know, Dan, you think you can trust somebody.
You think you can show them your box of pills and tell them about the fact that the ketamine you're taking has led to incontinence, and then they go and tell fucking Megan Thewey.
You think you can show them your box of pills and tell them about the fact that the ketamine you're taking has led to incontinence, and then they go and tell fucking Megan Thewey.
Yeah, I think that's where we're at. I think that's where we're at. Yeah, first it's like, you know, Yeah. It's just different things.
Yeah, I think that's where we're at. I think that's where we're at. Yeah, first it's like, you know, Yeah. It's just different things.
Everyone knows what we're talking about. Everyone knows what we're talking about. So Trump gave a press conference with Elon standing by his side where Trump talked about the end of Musk's time as a special government employee, talked about the future of Doge. Peter Doocy asked them about the time story and it didn't go great.
Everyone knows what we're talking about. Everyone knows what we're talking about. So Trump gave a press conference with Elon standing by his side where Trump talked about the end of Musk's time as a special government employee, talked about the future of Doge. Peter Doocy asked them about the time story and it didn't go great.
So he's not mad at all. That's why he's laughing. They're the slingers. So he's pretty upset about the story. Dan, what was your reaction to this?
So he's not mad at all. That's why he's laughing. They're the slingers. So he's pretty upset about the story. Dan, what was your reaction to this?
I guess not. Although the story also says that he would presumably have had to have been drug tested because at SpaceX, you have to be drug free. And apparently he knew when the testing was gonna be. He got a little heads up. That's what the story found. So who knows? Yeah, I mean, I was drug tested when I had to work.
I guess not. Although the story also says that he would presumably have had to have been drug tested because at SpaceX, you have to be drug free. And apparently he knew when the testing was gonna be. He got a little heads up. That's what the story found. So who knows? Yeah, I mean, I was drug tested when I had to work.
I got drug tested when I worked with Dan at the White House and passed it by the skin of my teeth.
I got drug tested when I worked with Dan at the White House and passed it by the skin of my teeth.
Yeah, well, I think whether or not we could use it as an argument to reverse them, I do think it's worth pointing out that this is somebody Trump in power to make incredibly sensitive, important decisions about government funding, who personally led an effort that that unceremoniously ended foreign aid programs and did
Yeah, well, I think whether or not we could use it as an argument to reverse them, I do think it's worth pointing out that this is somebody Trump in power to make incredibly sensitive, important decisions about government funding, who personally led an effort that that unceremoniously ended foreign aid programs and did
health care programs, like genuinely threw people's lives into chaos, may have cost people lives, food assistance around the world. And he's got a box of pills. Listen, when you're at the point where you got a box, a loose box of 20 pills, that's too many pills. That's too many pills unless you're very sick.
health care programs, like genuinely threw people's lives into chaos, may have cost people lives, food assistance around the world. And he's got a box of pills. Listen, when you're at the point where you got a box, a loose box of 20 pills, that's too many pills. That's too many pills unless you're very sick.
Yes, and the story is really buttoned up because they have both a photo of the box of pills and the box of pills as described by people. Imagine getting close enough to Elon Musk that you're able to take a picture of the pills, but not so close as you are unwilling to send it to the New York Times. That would make you, I mean, I understand why he's upset.
Yes, and the story is really buttoned up because they have both a photo of the box of pills and the box of pills as described by people. Imagine getting close enough to Elon Musk that you're able to take a picture of the pills, but not so close as you are unwilling to send it to the New York Times. That would make you, I mean, I understand why he's upset.
It must be pretty disconcerting, must be unmooring beyond the ketamine to discover that all these people that have gotten pretty close to you are talking to reporters about this. We should also note that if you're listening to this, Elon Musk does seem to have a black eye. which adds to the kind of sense that things are off the rails. He was also asked about that.
It must be pretty disconcerting, must be unmooring beyond the ketamine to discover that all these people that have gotten pretty close to you are talking to reporters about this. We should also note that if you're listening to this, Elon Musk does seem to have a black eye. which adds to the kind of sense that things are off the rails. He was also asked about that.
I wanted to ask quickly, Mr. Musk, is your eye okay? What happened to your eye? I know this was a bruise there.
I wanted to ask quickly, Mr. Musk, is your eye okay? What happened to your eye? I know this was a bruise there.
I didn't notice it, actually. Did you understand? How broken-brained are you? I understood what he was referencing when he said France. Did you understand it, or did you need somebody to remind you?
I didn't notice it, actually. Did you understand? How broken-brained are you? I understood what he was referencing when he said France. Did you understand it, or did you need somebody to remind you?
Yeah, so for all those, that is a reference to the fact that there was a video of Emmanuel Macron getting pushed in the face by Brigitte. Yeah. And then realizing that he's exposed because the door to the plane is open. That's the joke that Elon is making there.
Yeah, so for all those, that is a reference to the fact that there was a video of Emmanuel Macron getting pushed in the face by Brigitte. Yeah. And then realizing that he's exposed because the door to the plane is open. That's the joke that Elon is making there.
glad we'll be have a little break from getting to talk about elon musk i hope but man what a what a deeply unserious and broken person to have been given so much power by this president and it's so strange to see donald trump in that setting trying to be protective of elon musk who he sees struggling standing next to him so you like like there's a kind of odd generosity that trump is giving trying i didn't even notice the black guy
glad we'll be have a little break from getting to talk about elon musk i hope but man what a what a deeply unserious and broken person to have been given so much power by this president and it's so strange to see donald trump in that setting trying to be protective of elon musk who he sees struggling standing next to him so you like like there's a kind of odd generosity that trump is giving trying i didn't even notice the black guy
No, it's a bad joke, Dan. It's a bad joke. Because it doesn't actually make sense. The fact that somebody else had something happen to their face in France. Nobody would, the structure doesn't make sense, because even in the internal logic of the joke, well, I wasn't in France, so is the joke, I guess on some level the joke would be, don't worry, Brigitte didn't get me, right?
No, it's a bad joke, Dan. It's a bad joke. Because it doesn't actually make sense. The fact that somebody else had something happen to their face in France. Nobody would, the structure doesn't make sense, because even in the internal logic of the joke, well, I wasn't in France, so is the joke, I guess on some level the joke would be, don't worry, Brigitte didn't get me, right?
But really he's just saying, hey, somebody else got hit in the face recently. Isn't that funny? That's somebody else that got hit in the face. That's why the joke didn't work and it needed to be explained by the reporter. Well, I like the reporter being like, I don't understand. Good for the reporter for asking the follow-up question.
But really he's just saying, hey, somebody else got hit in the face recently. Isn't that funny? That's somebody else that got hit in the face. That's why the joke didn't work and it needed to be explained by the reporter. Well, I like the reporter being like, I don't understand. Good for the reporter for asking the follow-up question.
Yeah, if that's true. I don't, like, maybe that's what happened, or maybe in some sort of a haze, he walked into a closet door.
Yeah, if that's true. I don't, like, maybe that's what happened, or maybe in some sort of a haze, he walked into a closet door.
I just, like, man, when you're at the, and again, we've also done our defamation training here at Crooked Media, so I can't speak to this specific circumstance, and I am not speaking to this specific circumstance, but we've all had people in our lives. When you're at the phase of your, on your, um,
I just, like, man, when you're at the, and again, we've also done our defamation training here at Crooked Media, so I can't speak to this specific circumstance, and I am not speaking to this specific circumstance, but we've all had people in our lives. When you're at the phase of your, on your, um,
substance journey where you're showing up with random bruises right that's not like it's not a good moment when you're slipping in your own pee right right yeah when you're like yeah waking up next to the toilet unexplained bruise unexplained bruise dan figured prominently in uh real housewives of salt lake city i'm not caught up
substance journey where you're showing up with random bruises right that's not like it's not a good moment when you're slipping in your own pee right right yeah when you're like yeah waking up next to the toilet unexplained bruise unexplained bruise dan figured prominently in uh real housewives of salt lake city i'm not caught up
Oh, there's a there's a long storyline about a bruise and its origins and someone claiming to not remember where it came from. Then somebody saying they won't say where it came from, like years, years of dishonesty about the origins of a of a of a punch bruise. So a lot to think about there. But Trump did talk about Doge and the big, beautiful bill.
Oh, there's a there's a long storyline about a bruise and its origins and someone claiming to not remember where it came from. Then somebody saying they won't say where it came from, like years, years of dishonesty about the origins of a of a of a punch bruise. So a lot to think about there. But Trump did talk about Doge and the big, beautiful bill.
So that's because it's not real. That's not right. I don't know what the 68% figure is. I think it's 68% of Americans.
So that's because it's not real. That's not right. I don't know what the 68% figure is. I think it's 68% of Americans.
So this is their only move, I guess, right? To say if Republicans in the Senate don't send this back to the House in a way that comports with what some of these right-wingers in the House are demanding, taxes will go up. So that's the cudgel. But clearly, they have a big problem. Right. Like that getting it from the House was only the first step. And actually now we're in.
So this is their only move, I guess, right? To say if Republicans in the Senate don't send this back to the House in a way that comports with what some of these right-wingers in the House are demanding, taxes will go up. So that's the cudgel. But clearly, they have a big problem. Right. Like that getting it from the House was only the first step. And actually now we're in.
And even that was very difficult and required a bunch of people casting a vote in part because they know it's not the final vote. Right. They know that they could just go along with this and they'd have another bite at the apple. But but then do you have a sense of how stuck this is? in the Senate?
And even that was very difficult and required a bunch of people casting a vote in part because they know it's not the final vote. Right. They know that they could just go along with this and they'd have another bite at the apple. But but then do you have a sense of how stuck this is? in the Senate?
Yes, but there's other directions this could go. One would be to get this through. Having lost Paul and Johnson, you are going to move like To get this through the House, Johnson had to wrangle the moderates to vote for cuts that are unpopular and wrangle the right wingers and the Freedom Caucus types for voting for a huge increase to the deficit without having enough cuts to government spending.
Yes, but there's other directions this could go. One would be to get this through. Having lost Paul and Johnson, you are going to move like To get this through the House, Johnson had to wrangle the moderates to vote for cuts that are unpopular and wrangle the right wingers and the Freedom Caucus types for voting for a huge increase to the deficit without having enough cuts to government spending.
The bill that will come out of the Senate will not be a better bill for those Freedom Caucus members. Right. That's sort of hard to imagine. Right. So even getting them this far was difficult. If the bill becomes more moderate, right, maybe Johnson can count on those members, but he could be losing some of his Freedom Caucus members. He already lost two the first round, right?
The bill that will come out of the Senate will not be a better bill for those Freedom Caucus members. Right. That's sort of hard to imagine. Right. So even getting them this far was difficult. If the bill becomes more moderate, right, maybe Johnson can count on those members, but he could be losing some of his Freedom Caucus members. He already lost two the first round, right?
So he's basically, as long as no more fucking octogenarian Democrats fucking die, he still, he needs to keep everybody together. And so you could imagine, right, a scenario where it is,
So he's basically, as long as no more fucking octogenarian Democrats fucking die, he still, he needs to keep everybody together. And so you could imagine, right, a scenario where it is,
it maybe can get out of the Senate, it can die in the House, then all of a sudden there's a scramble, and then there's the question of whether or not there's something that would have to pass with Democratic votes, right?
it maybe can get out of the Senate, it can die in the House, then all of a sudden there's a scramble, and then there's the question of whether or not there's something that would have to pass with Democratic votes, right?
Yeah, it's really it's really extraordinary that there is this option sitting on the table for them, which is to just do an extension. And by the way, they could do an extension. Maybe there's two in the weeds. They could do an extension for all the tax cuts for people making below five hundred thousand. They could.
Yeah, it's really it's really extraordinary that there is this option sitting on the table for them, which is to just do an extension. And by the way, they could do an extension. Maybe there's two in the weeds. They could do an extension for all the tax cuts for people making below five hundred thousand. They could.
do that and do some of their kind of estate tax issues, some of their more kind of like specific tax changes while not allowing while allowing the tax rates for for corporations and for wealthy people to go up, it would dramatically changed the cost of the bill, it would be far more popular. But it's just pure greed. They simply cannot.
do that and do some of their kind of estate tax issues, some of their more kind of like specific tax changes while not allowing while allowing the tax rates for for corporations and for wealthy people to go up, it would dramatically changed the cost of the bill, it would be far more popular. But it's just pure greed. They simply cannot.
They are doing this to cut those like that's the purpose of all of this. So it feels like it's the one thing. And even Trump understands that he can't he he like he keeps floating it because he understands the politics sort of like from a gut level. And then every time he floats it, he's like, ah, Johnson tells me they won't go for it. Right. Johnson won't even entertain the idea.
They are doing this to cut those like that's the purpose of all of this. So it feels like it's the one thing. And even Trump understands that he can't he he like he keeps floating it because he understands the politics sort of like from a gut level. And then every time he floats it, he's like, ah, Johnson tells me they won't go for it. Right. Johnson won't even entertain the idea.
Yeah. And it's creating some tough politics for people like Joni Ernst in Iowa. She was getting some flack about this at a town hall in Iowa. Let's roll the clip.
Yeah. And it's creating some tough politics for people like Joni Ernst in Iowa. She was getting some flack about this at a town hall in Iowa. Let's roll the clip.
Tough comment from Jody. Tough. It's true. We are all going to die. In the long run, we are all dead. But that was in response to questions about Medicaid cuts and cuts to SNAP, which is help food aid, that it could lead people to die. And she didn't like the question very much, gave a pretty flip answer. I do appreciate...
Tough comment from Jody. Tough. It's true. We are all going to die. In the long run, we are all dead. But that was in response to questions about Medicaid cuts and cuts to SNAP, which is help food aid, that it could lead people to die. And she didn't like the question very much, gave a pretty flip answer. I do appreciate...
that answer more than just lying about it and saying that they're not cutting Medicaid and they're not cutting SNAP.
that answer more than just lying about it and saying that they're not cutting Medicaid and they're not cutting SNAP.
Yeah, this is, I will say like they are, you know, the bill is not getting- it's not aging well, right? The longer they're out there defending it, the longer this conversation goes on, the longer this debate goes on, the longer there's stories about the battle to cut Medicaid and cut taxes for the wealthy.
Yeah, this is, I will say like they are, you know, the bill is not getting- it's not aging well, right? The longer they're out there defending it, the longer this conversation goes on, the longer this debate goes on, the longer there's stories about the battle to cut Medicaid and cut taxes for the wealthy.
I think the more, I don't, Joni Ernst is not somebody I think that Trump can easily lose, but the harder it will be to get a bill that looks like this or mostly looks like this through the Senate and back to the House for them to pass it.
I think the more, I don't, Joni Ernst is not somebody I think that Trump can easily lose, but the harder it will be to get a bill that looks like this or mostly looks like this through the Senate and back to the House for them to pass it.
Dan, if a Democrat leaps at an opportunity in the woods, but nobody hears it, Does it make a sound?
Dan, if a Democrat leaps at an opportunity in the woods, but nobody hears it, Does it make a sound?
Yeah, I agree. There's something, there's like this deeper challenge, which is like, I hear what you're saying, because it's like, no, it's not really about like, does Schumer do a tweet? Are there enough politicians tweeting about it? It's like as an organization used loosely. Yes, quite loosely, yes.
Yeah, I agree. There's something, there's like this deeper challenge, which is like, I hear what you're saying, because it's like, no, it's not really about like, does Schumer do a tweet? Are there enough politicians tweeting about it? It's like as an organization used loosely. Yes, quite loosely, yes.
As throngs of human beings collectively, generally, ideally having the same outcome of defeating Donald Trump and his allies, there is this deeper problem where A lot of Democratic discourse online is about how to win, and a lot of Republican discourse is just about winning. We have Fox News on in our office all the time. Look, we like to hear from a range of people.
As throngs of human beings collectively, generally, ideally having the same outcome of defeating Donald Trump and his allies, there is this deeper problem where A lot of Democratic discourse online is about how to win, and a lot of Republican discourse is just about winning. We have Fox News on in our office all the time. Look, we like to hear from a range of people.
I like to get all the views before I make my decisions. They have a lot of content about making fun of Democrats for endlessly talking about how to win men, right? But when they're trying to... trying to win bin back women. They're not having people on to debate the Republican problem with women. They're talking about immigrants attacking women in the streets.
I like to get all the views before I make my decisions. They have a lot of content about making fun of Democrats for endlessly talking about how to win men, right? But when they're trying to... trying to win bin back women. They're not having people on to debate the Republican problem with women. They're talking about immigrants attacking women in the streets.
And so like, there's just this sort of, it's almost as if there's this like kind of sense on the right that how you help your side is by helping your side. And on our side, we really all put on our white gloves And like kind of have a kind of sophisticated debate about the future of the Democratic Party. But not a lot. And by the way, this applies to me, too. We're doing it right now.
And so like, there's just this sort of, it's almost as if there's this like kind of sense on the right that how you help your side is by helping your side. And on our side, we really all put on our white gloves And like kind of have a kind of sophisticated debate about the future of the Democratic Party. But not a lot. And by the way, this applies to me, too. We're doing it right now.
But it's like we're much more interested in this sort of meta conversation than actually like the daily grind of actually performing the outrage at what Republicans are saying and doing.
But it's like we're much more interested in this sort of meta conversation than actually like the daily grind of actually performing the outrage at what Republicans are saying and doing.
Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I had my little moment in the barrel over the weekend because John and I went on Jon Stewart's pod and we talked about Biden, obviously.
Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I had my little moment in the barrel over the weekend because John and I went on Jon Stewart's pod and we talked about Biden, obviously.
And in it, I talked about the conflict of wanting to be honest about Biden's age as liability and then also being worried that talking about it would hurt Biden's chances when he is the nominee because right wing media would take it out of context. And as I'm saying, I'm like, I'm going to see this. I'm going to see this again. Yeah.
And in it, I talked about the conflict of wanting to be honest about Biden's age as liability and then also being worried that talking about it would hurt Biden's chances when he is the nominee because right wing media would take it out of context. And as I'm saying, I'm like, I'm going to see this. I'm going to see this again. Yeah.
And then what happened is exactly what you're saying, which is I think Fox News clipped it, right? And they put some unfair headline on it, Obama cover up, that kind of thing. And once that went out there, everybody started doing it. Everybody started picking it up because like, oh, here's a little chum in the water. This is a thing we could, this is something to follow.
And then what happened is exactly what you're saying, which is I think Fox News clipped it, right? And they put some unfair headline on it, Obama cover up, that kind of thing. And once that went out there, everybody started doing it. Everybody started picking it up because like, oh, here's a little chum in the water. This is a thing we could, this is something to follow.
And yet here I am, Dan, I made it.
And yet here I am, Dan, I made it.
It's a little, it doesn't have, has Justine landed yet energy where I like open up my computer like, oh shit. Whoa. And of course, what do I do? I ignore it, I ignore it, I ignore it. And then I fucking tweet at Meghan McCain. For whatever reason, that's the one that got me. The final straw. All right, Dan, thanks for hopping on.
It's a little, it doesn't have, has Justine landed yet energy where I like open up my computer like, oh shit. Whoa. And of course, what do I do? I ignore it, I ignore it, I ignore it. And then I fucking tweet at Meghan McCain. For whatever reason, that's the one that got me. The final straw. All right, Dan, thanks for hopping on.
We will be right back with my conversation with labor historian Eric Loomis. We had a great conversation about labor strikes in history. And there are a lot... I wanted to talk to him because I've just been really interested in all the different ways a diverse... disparate, often contentious movement, democratic movement, can have success.
We will be right back with my conversation with labor historian Eric Loomis. We had a great conversation about labor strikes in history. And there are a lot... I wanted to talk to him because I've just been really interested in all the different ways a diverse... disparate, often contentious movement, democratic movement, can have success.
And one place to learn about that are the times in which strikes have led to changes and when they haven't. And it was a great, fascinating, and very useful conversation about organizing, about what works, about what doesn't work, about lessons. And you'll hear that after the break.
And one place to learn about that are the times in which strikes have led to changes and when they haven't. And it was a great, fascinating, and very useful conversation about organizing, about what works, about what doesn't work, about lessons. And you'll hear that after the break.
It's so cold and nice. I fucking love it. I just set one up, the new one, and it's awesome. It's like really helped my sleep, genuinely.
It's so cold and nice. I fucking love it. I just set one up, the new one, and it's awesome. It's like really helped my sleep, genuinely.
I heat it up. Then I cool it down.
I heat it up. Then I cool it down.
Are some of your customers earthworms?
Are some of your customers earthworms?
That's what I was just talking about.
That's what I was just talking about.
And we're back. With me today is Eric Loomis, a professor of history at the University of Rhode Island. He wrote a book called The History of America in Ten Strikes. I read it because I was really interested in moments when movements were able to galvanize public support, not just to make changes in a company or an industry, but to make broader political change.
And we're back. With me today is Eric Loomis, a professor of history at the University of Rhode Island. He wrote a book called The History of America in Ten Strikes. I read it because I was really interested in moments when movements were able to galvanize public support, not just to make changes in a company or an industry, but to make broader political change.
And as we think about this fight against Trump, as we watch this rising authoritarian movement, the answer has to be some kind of mass mobilization, a democratic movement big enough to meet this right wing one. And throughout history, labor has been central to that. And there have been moments when we've seen organizing succeed and we've had moments when organizing failed.
And as we think about this fight against Trump, as we watch this rising authoritarian movement, the answer has to be some kind of mass mobilization, a democratic movement big enough to meet this right wing one. And throughout history, labor has been central to that. And there have been moments when we've seen organizing succeed and we've had moments when organizing failed.
And I was just interested to learn about that. what lessons we can draw and the book was really helpful to do that and this conversation was really helpful to think about that about getting public support the balance between radicalism and pragmatism the ways in which violence can harm a movement and how much it matters when you have political leaders who are
And I was just interested to learn about that. what lessons we can draw and the book was really helpful to do that and this conversation was really helpful to think about that about getting public support the balance between radicalism and pragmatism the ways in which violence can harm a movement and how much it matters when you have political leaders who are
supportive of organizing and labor movements and when they're hostile to them. So there's a lot of lessons, I think, for us right now, which is why I was so eager to talk to Eric Loomis about it.
supportive of organizing and labor movements and when they're hostile to them. So there's a lot of lessons, I think, for us right now, which is why I was so eager to talk to Eric Loomis about it.
And it was a great conversation, runs the gamut from a pageant of striking workers in which many were jealous that they didn't get the parts they wanted, all the way through Reagan's decimation of the air traffic controllers unions and the lessons we can draw from that. But all in all, a really great conversation. Eric Loomis, thank you so much for being here.
And it was a great conversation, runs the gamut from a pageant of striking workers in which many were jealous that they didn't get the parts they wanted, all the way through Reagan's decimation of the air traffic controllers unions and the lessons we can draw from that. But all in all, a really great conversation. Eric Loomis, thank you so much for being here.
I want to start with the general strike of 1919, which I thought was an interesting moment where you saw basically
I want to start with the general strike of 1919, which I thought was an interesting moment where you saw basically
an intersection of the radicalism of some parts of the labor movement and people who did not view themselves as radical, did not view themselves as political, were not part of the IWW, the Industrial Workers of the World, which was seen as more socialist and communist, but members of the AFL, and over the course of several days, basically shut the city of Seattle down.
an intersection of the radicalism of some parts of the labor movement and people who did not view themselves as radical, did not view themselves as political, were not part of the IWW, the Industrial Workers of the World, which was seen as more socialist and communist, but members of the AFL, and over the course of several days, basically shut the city of Seattle down.
And so maybe you could just start by telling us a little bit about What led to that moment?
And so maybe you could just start by telling us a little bit about What led to that moment?
It was interesting to me that it was motivated in part just by inflation, right? By definition, if you are going to have a general strike, it is not going to be led by a fringe. It's going to have to be led by the great majority. And those are less ideological participants. They want a wage increase. They want good conditions. They want to be treated fairly.
It was interesting to me that it was motivated in part just by inflation, right? By definition, if you are going to have a general strike, it is not going to be led by a fringe. It's going to have to be led by the great majority. And those are less ideological participants. They want a wage increase. They want good conditions. They want to be treated fairly.
And to the point you made about public support for it, it was interesting throughout the book. It was one of the themes I want to talk to you about, about...
And to the point you made about public support for it, it was interesting throughout the book. It was one of the themes I want to talk to you about, about...
When labor organizers have sought to rally the public to their side and when they've alienated the public and when disruption is the order of the day to demonstrate your power versus when disruption alienates the people whose backing you need and thereby costing you the politicians. Maybe you could just talk a little bit about that.
When labor organizers have sought to rally the public to their side and when they've alienated the public and when disruption is the order of the day to demonstrate your power versus when disruption alienates the people whose backing you need and thereby costing you the politicians. Maybe you could just talk a little bit about that.
Yeah, so let's talk about two different versions of this. Maybe this is a good way to do this. So let's talk about the 1937 Flint sit-down strike. And then I want to talk about the air traffic controller strike, which, by the way, like I totally did not understand that I had an image in my mind of what happened that was so simple and wrong.
Yeah, so let's talk about two different versions of this. Maybe this is a good way to do this. So let's talk about the 1937 Flint sit-down strike. And then I want to talk about the air traffic controller strike, which, by the way, like I totally did not understand that I had an image in my mind of what happened that was so simple and wrong.
So I think it's I think people will be interested in that. But let's talk about the 1937 Flint sit down strike. There's a line from. A leader in the UAW says, I'm convinced that the police lost not only that night's battle, but the whole Flint war by providing us with the finest audience we had ever had.
So I think it's I think people will be interested in that. But let's talk about the 1937 Flint sit down strike. There's a line from. A leader in the UAW says, I'm convinced that the police lost not only that night's battle, but the whole Flint war by providing us with the finest audience we had ever had.
It served to nudge thousands of Flint workers off dead center and into an open commitment to the UAW. So can you talk about what led to that moment?
It served to nudge thousands of Flint workers off dead center and into an open commitment to the UAW. So can you talk about what led to that moment?
I deeply empathize with somebody who panics for 48 hours before finding the courage to do the right thing. I think that that's a cool vibe and an energy that I appreciate. So it's interesting because it reminded me all those years later when the SEIU is organizing janitors in Los Angeles and you have a similar public outcry
I deeply empathize with somebody who panics for 48 hours before finding the courage to do the right thing. I think that that's a cool vibe and an energy that I appreciate. So it's interesting because it reminded me all those years later when the SEIU is organizing janitors in Los Angeles and you have a similar public outcry
when the police are unleashed on a group of striking janitors in Century City, which is not far from where we're recording this, as their kind of wealthy tenants who don't have any stake. They don't win or lose if the landlord pays the janitors more, but they certainly don't like looking out the window at their fancy offices and seeing people being assaulted.
when the police are unleashed on a group of striking janitors in Century City, which is not far from where we're recording this, as their kind of wealthy tenants who don't have any stake. They don't win or lose if the landlord pays the janitors more, but they certainly don't like looking out the window at their fancy offices and seeing people being assaulted.
And it led to the mayor, Tom Bradley, for whom our awful airport is partially named, to side with the workers.
And it led to the mayor, Tom Bradley, for whom our awful airport is partially named, to side with the workers.
Let's talk about the air traffic controllers under Reagan. The air traffic controller union at the time, which no longer exists, it's a different union now, it endorsed Ronald Reagan. What I thought when I saw that as well, you know, this election we just went through, we had the Teamsters head speaking at the Republican National Committee. So it felt resonant.
Let's talk about the air traffic controllers under Reagan. The air traffic controller union at the time, which no longer exists, it's a different union now, it endorsed Ronald Reagan. What I thought when I saw that as well, you know, this election we just went through, we had the Teamsters head speaking at the Republican National Committee. So it felt resonant.
Take us from the air traffic controllers union endorsing Ronald Reagan to within a span of a few years being destroyed by Ronald Reagan.
Take us from the air traffic controllers union endorsing Ronald Reagan to within a span of a few years being destroyed by Ronald Reagan.
It's the greatest disaster in the history of organized labor. And I do think there's like, there is a lesson there, right? That they thought they had this power because of the important role they played in infrastructure. But the lack of public support gave Reagan the space to fire them all, blame them for the ensuing chaos that happened that they slowly sort of came back from.
It's the greatest disaster in the history of organized labor. And I do think there's like, there is a lesson there, right? That they thought they had this power because of the important role they played in infrastructure. But the lack of public support gave Reagan the space to fire them all, blame them for the ensuing chaos that happened that they slowly sort of came back from.
And I mean, the union stops existing, right? That's it. The union that follows is a completely different organization. Yeah.
And I mean, the union stops existing, right? That's it. The union that follows is a completely different organization. Yeah.
Can you talk about one of the examples in the book of a more effective example of organizing and striking when the action was effective both in galvanizing the public and in getting concessions?
Can you talk about one of the examples in the book of a more effective example of organizing and striking when the action was effective both in galvanizing the public and in getting concessions?
Is it just as simple as their demands were reasonable, their conditions were terrible? Or was there something about the ask of Americans who obviously were not directly impacted? What exactly, to drill down, made it catch such attention?
Is it just as simple as their demands were reasonable, their conditions were terrible? Or was there something about the ask of Americans who obviously were not directly impacted? What exactly, to drill down, made it catch such attention?
part of what the organizing has to do, right? It's not just that it gave people a concrete step that they could take. It was also an action with a specific goal, right? We're not boycotting these grapes forever. We're not doing this to raise awareness. We are taking a specific action for a length of time to exact some kind of a change, a specific defined change.
part of what the organizing has to do, right? It's not just that it gave people a concrete step that they could take. It was also an action with a specific goal, right? We're not boycotting these grapes forever. We're not doing this to raise awareness. We are taking a specific action for a length of time to exact some kind of a change, a specific defined change.
And that requires organizers who understand that balance, right, between not being so complacent or establishment oriented as to not demand enough, which you talk about in the book a fair amount, but also to not be so ahead of where the public is that either your demands are seen as impossible or don't get the support of the public to try to make sure you get that result.
And that requires organizers who understand that balance, right, between not being so complacent or establishment oriented as to not demand enough, which you talk about in the book a fair amount, but also to not be so ahead of where the public is that either your demands are seen as impossible or don't get the support of the public to try to make sure you get that result.
We'll be right back with more of this conversation after this break. Pod Save America is brought to you by Blinds.com. If you've ever thought about upgrading your window treatments but didn't want the hassle, Blinds.com is here to change the game. They're the only company that lets you shop custom blinds and shades online, then backs it up with professional in-home measure and install services.
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It's funny that people are reaching out to you to ask about a general strike because you see it floated all the time and people are like, oh, we need a general strike. And it's, well, like... How do we get there? Right.
It's funny that people are reaching out to you to ask about a general strike because you see it floated all the time and people are like, oh, we need a general strike. And it's, well, like... How do we get there? Right.
What are the steps to building up the capacity and the kind of collective sense of imagination that such a thing could, you know, like before you can have it, people have to start to believe it's something that's realistic. That requires a lot of organizing along the way. One thing that struck me, too, is you have this big strike in 1919 led by people that had served in World War One.
What are the steps to building up the capacity and the kind of collective sense of imagination that such a thing could, you know, like before you can have it, people have to start to believe it's something that's realistic. That requires a lot of organizing along the way. One thing that struck me, too, is you have this big strike in 1919 led by people that had served in World War One.
There's a general strike that shuts down Oakland in 1946. There's this series of strikes you were talking about with Vietnam veterans returning home. Something does happen.
There's a general strike that shuts down Oakland in 1946. There's this series of strikes you were talking about with Vietnam veterans returning home. Something does happen.
In this country, when people are returning home from a war and then don't feel like they're getting what they deserve or what they feel they're owed by the country, and they have a sense of discipline and camaraderie with the people that they're working with, there's a series of strikes. There's one in Connecticut. They start cascading across the country. They end up in Oakland in 1946.
In this country, when people are returning home from a war and then don't feel like they're getting what they deserve or what they feel they're owed by the country, and they have a sense of discipline and camaraderie with the people that they're working with, there's a series of strikes. There's one in Connecticut. They start cascading across the country. They end up in Oakland in 1946.
Can you talk about the Oakland general strike? Yeah.
Can you talk about the Oakland general strike? Yeah.
We're in this political moment where you have a lot of kind of Republicans saying, oh, we need I think it was the White House spokesperson yesterday. We see we need fewer LGBTQ graduates from Harvard and more plumbers and more kind of people that work with their hands. And there's this sort of, I don't know, nostalgia for the factory because those are the real jobs for the men. Right.
We're in this political moment where you have a lot of kind of Republicans saying, oh, we need I think it was the White House spokesperson yesterday. We see we need fewer LGBTQ graduates from Harvard and more plumbers and more kind of people that work with their hands. And there's this sort of, I don't know, nostalgia for the factory because those are the real jobs for the men. Right.
Those are those are real jobs with dignity for men. But it almost seems to me that it kind of gets it backwards, that that the reason we associate those jobs with dignity and that American spirit is because people fought to make them well compensated. And because they were well compensated, they had a kind of prestige and a respect, right?
Those are those are real jobs with dignity for men. But it almost seems to me that it kind of gets it backwards, that that the reason we associate those jobs with dignity and that American spirit is because people fought to make them well compensated. And because they were well compensated, they had a kind of prestige and a respect, right?
And that there's nothing inherently more dignified about that job than a service job. It's just that unions successfully organized those places when these people were forming memories about like a Rockwell style America.
And that there's nothing inherently more dignified about that job than a service job. It's just that unions successfully organized those places when these people were forming memories about like a Rockwell style America.
Yeah, it's worth talking about the Joe Biden example because you wrote this in 2018. And in the next two years, we elect Joe Biden. He is the most pro-union president in our lifetimes.
Yeah, it's worth talking about the Joe Biden example because you wrote this in 2018. And in the next two years, we elect Joe Biden. He is the most pro-union president in our lifetimes.
And then Donald Trump, who promised to be a pro-worker president, but ultimately deregulates and cuts taxes for the wealthy, makes gains not just with white people, but makes gains with black voters and Hispanic voters, especially men, and makes a kind of broad gains in ways that seem to suggest that Joe Biden's kind of pro-union position didn't get him anything.
And then Donald Trump, who promised to be a pro-worker president, but ultimately deregulates and cuts taxes for the wealthy, makes gains not just with white people, but makes gains with black voters and Hispanic voters, especially men, and makes a kind of broad gains in ways that seem to suggest that Joe Biden's kind of pro-union position didn't get him anything.
And I'm just wondering, we don't know, you know, it'll take time to figure out what happened here, obviously, but I'm just wondering what your first reaction was to that.
And I'm just wondering, we don't know, you know, it'll take time to figure out what happened here, obviously, but I'm just wondering what your first reaction was to that.
It's really it's really remarkable. That's what we'll you know, honestly, that's what some Trump defenders say that like this. We're not doing anything that you wouldn't have applauded and haven't spent a century applauding when FDR did it. I wonder how much of this, too, is just. You know, Joe Biden's doing taking the right steps for labor, but it's just incomprehensible.
It's really it's really remarkable. That's what we'll you know, honestly, that's what some Trump defenders say that like this. We're not doing anything that you wouldn't have applauded and haven't spent a century applauding when FDR did it. I wonder how much of this, too, is just. You know, Joe Biden's doing taking the right steps for labor, but it's just incomprehensible.
Like we'll never get to do the double blind experiment where we have a president who's doing what Joe Biden's doing, but isn't slowly losing the ability to fucking talk as we head into the most consequential election. There was speaking of being too college educated. There was a story in the book that it just it reminded me of social media, which is the Patterson strike pageant.
Like we'll never get to do the double blind experiment where we have a president who's doing what Joe Biden's doing, but isn't slowly losing the ability to fucking talk as we head into the most consequential election. There was speaking of being too college educated. There was a story in the book that it just it reminded me of social media, which is the Patterson strike pageant.
uh which just was very sweet and i thought was like and and that i felt like oh that's like um that that could be a movie in and of itself you just tell people what happened uh when uh strikers in patterson new jersey decided to put on a show okay
uh which just was very sweet and i thought was like and and that i felt like oh that's like um that that could be a movie in and of itself you just tell people what happened uh when uh strikers in patterson new jersey decided to put on a show okay
They're like, this sucks. They're hurt. People's feelings are these. I just think it's like these get these like kind of.
They're like, this sucks. They're hurt. People's feelings are these. I just think it's like these get these like kind of.
So I think we should wrap up by just talking about where we're at now. Only six percent of private sector workers are currently in a labor union. I thought this was a stunning fact that more than half are located in just a half a dozen states in the northeast. Right. Which means whole parts of the country are just not unionized yet. at all. We've also just been through an election where we lost.
So I think we should wrap up by just talking about where we're at now. Only six percent of private sector workers are currently in a labor union. I thought this was a stunning fact that more than half are located in just a half a dozen states in the northeast. Right. Which means whole parts of the country are just not unionized yet. at all. We've also just been through an election where we lost.
We lost to an anti-union, anti-labor president who is right now trying to stack the NLRB and undermine labor at every turn. But at the same time, we've seen kind of revived efforts to organize. We've seen, I think, organizers trying to figure out how to organize people that work in offices, organize the media. We're sitting here in the auspices of Crooked Media.
We lost to an anti-union, anti-labor president who is right now trying to stack the NLRB and undermine labor at every turn. But at the same time, we've seen kind of revived efforts to organize. We've seen, I think, organizers trying to figure out how to organize people that work in offices, organize the media. We're sitting here in the auspices of Crooked Media.
We got the Crooked Media Union on the ones and twos. If I did anything wrong, they'd have dumped out. If I went too pro-management in this interview, it would be shut off. It wouldn't continue.
We got the Crooked Media Union on the ones and twos. If I did anything wrong, they'd have dumped out. If I went too pro-management in this interview, it would be shut off. It wouldn't continue.
um they're laughing too much and then but it just it's hard not to feel what you're feeling like i one thing i take away from the book is just when the when corporations have unleashed violence against organizers it has blown back against them when unions have had violent elements even just acting on their own it has destroyed solidarity with people that aren't in the union
um they're laughing too much and then but it just it's hard not to feel what you're feeling like i one thing i take away from the book is just when the when corporations have unleashed violence against organizers it has blown back against them when unions have had violent elements even just acting on their own it has destroyed solidarity with people that aren't in the union
And the reason I bring that up is you start to see this kind of this desire to find someone to fix it, whether it's a politician or whether it's people kind of praising someone like Luigi Mangione. And it just feels like we're not at a moment where people want to or feel motivated to participate in broad ways. protest or broad actions.
And the reason I bring that up is you start to see this kind of this desire to find someone to fix it, whether it's a politician or whether it's people kind of praising someone like Luigi Mangione. And it just feels like we're not at a moment where people want to or feel motivated to participate in broad ways. protest or broad actions.
You see some rising protests in the last couple of months, but nothing that compares to what happened in 2017. And more broadly, what you see is protests not as a mean to exact any specific outcome, but simply to raise awareness, right? Protests to highlight a topic, express discontent, voice concerns, but not the kind of organized... movements that are designed to exact specific policy outcomes.
You see some rising protests in the last couple of months, but nothing that compares to what happened in 2017. And more broadly, what you see is protests not as a mean to exact any specific outcome, but simply to raise awareness, right? Protests to highlight a topic, express discontent, voice concerns, but not the kind of organized... movements that are designed to exact specific policy outcomes.
And so when I think about the long road we have to a moment where millions of people might have to take to the streets because they're trying to protect us from a further descent in authoritarianism, I feel like we're so far away from that. And I just wonder what you see as either glimmers of hope or places where you would like to see greater organizing to start rebuilding that muscle.
And so when I think about the long road we have to a moment where millions of people might have to take to the streets because they're trying to protect us from a further descent in authoritarianism, I feel like we're so far away from that. And I just wonder what you see as either glimmers of hope or places where you would like to see greater organizing to start rebuilding that muscle.
Well, gauntlet thrown for Governor Jared Polis. We'll have to ask him on to respond to it. And it's interesting because you do strike this note in the book, which is both the importance of making sure the Democratic Party, pushing the Democratic Party to represent unions effectively, but also to acknowledge that
Well, gauntlet thrown for Governor Jared Polis. We'll have to ask him on to respond to it. And it's interesting because you do strike this note in the book, which is both the importance of making sure the Democratic Party, pushing the Democratic Party to represent unions effectively, but also to acknowledge that
We have a two party system and we have to fight to make the Democratic Party as pro-labor as possible. But like to me, like the lessons I take from the book are one, the balance between radical action with sort of pragmatic goals and aims and understanding that most people have material, personal goals. financial needs and necessities that will motivate their participation.
We have a two party system and we have to fight to make the Democratic Party as pro-labor as possible. But like to me, like the lessons I take from the book are one, the balance between radical action with sort of pragmatic goals and aims and understanding that most people have material, personal goals. financial needs and necessities that will motivate their participation.
Two, the importance of pro-labor government as the difference maker, often. Three, that nobody is more powerful than the forces in the economy that they're not in control of, right? That unions were not able to stem the tide when you have something like NAFTA and you have jobs going overseas.
Two, the importance of pro-labor government as the difference maker, often. Three, that nobody is more powerful than the forces in the economy that they're not in control of, right? That unions were not able to stem the tide when you have something like NAFTA and you have jobs going overseas.
but for this importance of having the public behind you that the air traffic controller spent their goodwill long before they struck or Having violent animal elements inside of your union will alienate the kind of middle-class less involved Participants that you need to succeed and to me those were those were four of the lessons that I took for what we need to be doing now and
but for this importance of having the public behind you that the air traffic controller spent their goodwill long before they struck or Having violent animal elements inside of your union will alienate the kind of middle-class less involved Participants that you need to succeed and to me those were those were four of the lessons that I took for what we need to be doing now and
I really appreciated the book. It was a really helpful history. I also just, as I was reading it, realizing how much of what we learn growing up and just sort of what is considered history just does not cover labor history and economic history in what we study as kids. And it's an example to me of where you do have kind of propaganda in ways you just don't normally even understand it.
I really appreciated the book. It was a really helpful history. I also just, as I was reading it, realizing how much of what we learn growing up and just sort of what is considered history just does not cover labor history and economic history in what we study as kids. And it's an example to me of where you do have kind of propaganda in ways you just don't normally even understand it.
Eric Loomis, thank you so much for your time. It was really good talking to you about this. The book is The History of America in 10 Strikes. I recommend everybody check it out. Thanks so much. Hey, thank you for having me. Before we go, good news for the next month.
Eric Loomis, thank you so much for your time. It was really good talking to you about this. The book is The History of America in 10 Strikes. I recommend everybody check it out. Thanks so much. Hey, thank you for having me. Before we go, good news for the next month.
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When you buy something from the Cricket Store, you'll get a promo code for a free 30-day trial of Friends of the Pod, our subscription community. That means a full month of ad-free pods, exclusive subscriber-only shows, and access to our Discord server is completely free. So if there's a t-shirt...
You want, we have a bunch of really amazing designs by our design team and they're on like nicer shirts. We kind of up the quality of the shirts so that you can feel good about it. You can't see what the shirts are going to be like till they come, but we want you to know that they're nicer. So support Crooked, support our mission here and get the merch. Go to crooked.com slash store now.
You want, we have a bunch of really amazing designs by our design team and they're on like nicer shirts. We kind of up the quality of the shirts so that you can feel good about it. You can't see what the shirts are going to be like till they come, but we want you to know that they're nicer. So support Crooked, support our mission here and get the merch. Go to crooked.com slash store now.
All right. That's our show. Thank you to Professor Eric Loomis. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back in your feeds on Tuesday.
All right. That's our show. Thank you to Professor Eric Loomis. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back in your feeds on Tuesday.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
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Visit betterhelp.com slash PSA to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com slash PSA. Welcome to Pond Save America. I'm John Lovett. We're up and running with our Sunday shows. These episodes are going to be coming out every other weekend. We'll give John, Tommy, Dan and me a chance to have deeper conversations with a range of interesting people.
Visit betterhelp.com slash PSA to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com slash PSA. Welcome to Pond Save America. I'm John Lovett. We're up and running with our Sunday shows. These episodes are going to be coming out every other weekend. We'll give John, Tommy, Dan and me a chance to have deeper conversations with a range of interesting people.
My guest this week is television host, political commentator and stand up comedian Bill Maher. Welcome, Bill.
My guest this week is television host, political commentator and stand up comedian Bill Maher. Welcome, Bill.
Well, we do have boom mics.
Well, we do have boom mics.
We'd go to a boom mic.
We'd go to a boom mic.
No, it's an important question. Honestly, that's why you're here. No one's ever asked us that question before.
No, it's an important question. Honestly, that's why you're here. No one's ever asked us that question before.
You can switch hands. But it's different when you stand. You don't hold the microphone.
You can switch hands. But it's different when you stand. You don't hold the microphone.
I started. All right. Welcome to you. Okay. That's done. Okay. We like to start each episode with a land acknowledgment. We are on the land once occupied by Jeffrey Katzenberg and Quibi.
I started. All right. Welcome to you. Okay. That's done. Okay. We like to start each episode with a land acknowledgment. We are on the land once occupied by Jeffrey Katzenberg and Quibi.
Yeah, I thought I might set you off. Seems like it worked. All right, so now I want to start with this because I just realized that... Politically Incorrect is about to be 30 years old.
Yeah, I thought I might set you off. Seems like it worked. All right, so now I want to start with this because I just realized that... Politically Incorrect is about to be 30 years old.
Well, I remember watching it. It was on Comedy Central, then it moved to ABC. Correct. But I could only watch it because Comedy Central re-aired it in the afternoons. I didn't know that. And so I would... It has to be true. But I would come home from school.
Well, I remember watching it. It was on Comedy Central, then it moved to ABC. Correct. But I could only watch it because Comedy Central re-aired it in the afternoons. I didn't know that. And so I would... It has to be true. But I would come home from school.
And I would watch it every day when I got home from school.
And I would watch it every day when I got home from school.
It felt like that. It felt like that.
It felt like that. It felt like that.
Well, I... It was very, I actually was thinking about it. It was very formative for me. And I went back and I watched the first episode of Politically Incorrect.
Well, I... It was very, I actually was thinking about it. It was very formative for me. And I went back and I watched the first episode of Politically Incorrect.
The very first episode.
The very first episode.
Jerry Seinfeld. Right. And Jerry Seinfeld, you asked Jerry Seinfeld about, a question about whether or not pedophiles should have to have signs on their lawns. And it gives you this look like, I'm here as a fucking favor. I do jokes about cornflakes.
Jerry Seinfeld. Right. And Jerry Seinfeld, you asked Jerry Seinfeld about, a question about whether or not pedophiles should have to have signs on their lawns. And it gives you this look like, I'm here as a fucking favor. I do jokes about cornflakes.
I mean, don't you have to register? I think that's what this was about. It was about registering and people being, it was about public shaming and who should be shamed and who shouldn't be shamed. It was very 90s.
I mean, don't you have to register? I think that's what this was about. It was about registering and people being, it was about public shaming and who should be shamed and who shouldn't be shamed. It was very 90s.
No, there was something about it. And that's why I wanted to get to it. And we'll get to it because Seinfeld is like, what the fuck am I doing here? And then Ed Rollins, who was Perot's campaign- Ed Rollins. He was on- Yes. And it really put me back into a different time.
No, there was something about it. And that's why I wanted to get to it. And we'll get to it because Seinfeld is like, what the fuck am I doing here? And then Ed Rollins, who was Perot's campaign- Ed Rollins. He was on- Yes. And it really put me back into a different time.
But there is one moment where Seinfeld lights up because it was about polling and focus grouping and whether it was valuable or not valuable. And suddenly there really was an interesting moment.
But there is one moment where Seinfeld lights up because it was about polling and focus grouping and whether it was valuable or not valuable. And suddenly there really was an interesting moment.
Unbelievable. Take a compliment. I'm saying I'm watching the episode and all of a sudden the pilot, you suddenly see the magic that you were trying to get in this show. I wasn't saying it was the only moment. I'm saying there was a moment amongst several. Okay. Are you okay?
Unbelievable. Take a compliment. I'm saying I'm watching the episode and all of a sudden the pilot, you suddenly see the magic that you were trying to get in this show. I wasn't saying it was the only moment. I'm saying there was a moment amongst several. Okay. Are you okay?
Where all of a sudden you have Ed Rollins and you have Jerry Seinfeld talking about what they both know about, which is polling and focus grouping and where it works and where it doesn't work. And what I was wondering is what you were trying to get out of having... comedians and celebrities sitting across from politicians and experts.
Where all of a sudden you have Ed Rollins and you have Jerry Seinfeld talking about what they both know about, which is polling and focus grouping and where it works and where it doesn't work. And what I was wondering is what you were trying to get out of having... comedians and celebrities sitting across from politicians and experts.
It really was. I really did watch it every day when I got home from school.
It really was. I really did watch it every day when I got home from school.
But there was... You talk about how things have changed, and I want to talk about how the media has changed and also how the parties have changed. But in terms of the media, there was an episode where... It's really interesting. You brought on Sarah Silverman, and you brought on this... What?
But there was... You talk about how things have changed, and I want to talk about how the media has changed and also how the parties have changed. But in terms of the media, there was an episode where... It's really interesting. You brought on Sarah Silverman, and you brought on this... What?
She was on. Well, what was really interesting.
She was on. Well, what was really interesting.
She was, and you brought her on and an activist. He was an Asian American activist who was angry about a joke she told that used the word
She was, and you brought her on and an activist. He was an Asian American activist who was angry about a joke she told that used the word
No, it was politically incorrect. I'm sure of it. And it was really important to you. They'd both been criticizing each other in public and gone back and forth.
No, it was politically incorrect. I'm sure of it. And it was really important to you. They'd both been criticizing each other in public and gone back and forth.
Most probably she have thought about it. Just take it in the most generous sense.
Most probably she have thought about it. Just take it in the most generous sense.
Asian, uh, you know, media organization that was critical of the way Asian people were portrayed.
Asian, uh, you know, media organization that was critical of the way Asian people were portrayed.
Yes. And, and look, I, I think people evolve. I like, you know, they, they went back and like stopped airing certain episodes of the golden girls and cut things out of certain shows. And I think that's ridiculous, right? Cause there's, let's just, this was the past and it was different even though shows are look modern and maybe, and we should be able to see those things. That's obvious.
Yes. And, and look, I, I think people evolve. I like, you know, they, they went back and like stopped airing certain episodes of the golden girls and cut things out of certain shows. And I think that's ridiculous, right? Cause there's, let's just, this was the past and it was different even though shows are look modern and maybe, and we should be able to see those things. That's obvious.
But, but, but I wanted to say,
But, but, but I wanted to say,
There was a pretty racist episode of the Golden Girls, but let's just... There was. But I think let people see it. Who cares? I'm not talking about that.
There was a pretty racist episode of the Golden Girls, but let's just... There was. But I think let people see it. Who cares? I'm not talking about that.
For sure. And when they're putting warnings on Gone with the Wind, it's like Gone with the Wind sucks, but not because it's racist. It is racist, but that's not why it sucks.
For sure. And when they're putting warnings on Gone with the Wind, it's like Gone with the Wind sucks, but not because it's racist. It is racist, but that's not why it sucks.
Okay. But we'll get back to it. We'll get back to Gone with the Wind. We'll talk about movies at the end. Let's challenge our assumptions. But the... The reason I bring up the Sarah Silverman moment, who I love and think is an incredible comedian, and she's sharp in that debate as well, is it was really important in that moment where you said, you know what?
Okay. But we'll get back to it. We'll get back to Gone with the Wind. We'll talk about movies at the end. Let's challenge our assumptions. But the... The reason I bring up the Sarah Silverman moment, who I love and think is an incredible comedian, and she's sharp in that debate as well, is it was really important in that moment where you said, you know what?
Let's have the debate right here and have it in front of everybody and let people hash it out. And you talk about how things are different. And what's striking is, like, you think about that moment and... There wasn't public forums for people to have debates. There was television. There was radio and television, some newspaper op-eds. People could write a letter to the editor.
Let's have the debate right here and have it in front of everybody and let people hash it out. And you talk about how things are different. And what's striking is, like, you think about that moment and... There wasn't public forums for people to have debates. There was television. There was radio and television, some newspaper op-eds. People could write a letter to the editor.
But for the most part, political conversations on television weren't about or next to the political culture. They were the political culture. And if you got people together and had the debate, the 1,000 people that got to have an opinion on television would see it and it would impact them, right? And you could really feel the impact of debate. And we don't live in that world anymore.
But for the most part, political conversations on television weren't about or next to the political culture. They were the political culture. And if you got people together and had the debate, the 1,000 people that got to have an opinion on television would see it and it would impact them, right? And you could really feel the impact of debate. And we don't live in that world anymore.
Yeah, we've talked about that here. And I think in the early years of this company, we were much more reluctant, in part because we were trying to, I think, be just a platform for progressive voices. But as we've grown, we've realized that we want to have more voices.
Yeah, we've talked about that here. And I think in the early years of this company, we were much more reluctant, in part because we were trying to, I think, be just a platform for progressive voices. But as we've grown, we've realized that we want to have more voices.
Yeah, I want to come back to that in a second. I want to stay on debate only because what I felt when I was watching those old episodes is a kind of nostalgia for a culture where debate mattered. Like, you still do the kinds of debates you did back then, though you do it with more kind of serious people. There's fewer Christine O'Donnells popping up.
Yeah, I want to come back to that in a second. I want to stay on debate only because what I felt when I was watching those old episodes is a kind of nostalgia for a culture where debate mattered. Like, you still do the kinds of debates you did back then, though you do it with more kind of serious people. There's fewer Christine O'Donnells popping up.
On that episode where Sarah Silverman and this activist are talking... At what point, I forgot he was even there. David Spade was sitting there in fucking silence. And you turn to David Spade and you're like, so David Spade, what do you think? And he's like, fuck you, Bill. How about that? I don't want to be here. What am I doing here? I'm in Tommy Boy.
On that episode where Sarah Silverman and this activist are talking... At what point, I forgot he was even there. David Spade was sitting there in fucking silence. And you turn to David Spade and you're like, so David Spade, what do you think? And he's like, fuck you, Bill. How about that? I don't want to be here. What am I doing here? I'm in Tommy Boy.
Why are you asking me this really hard question?
Why are you asking me this really hard question?
Yeah, it used to exist more in, like, the old, before they went live to tape, when, like, Carson was truly live. And there were just, things would go wrong, right? No, Carson was not live. when there would be like moments early on in the early years and there, yeah, you got, you got like, uh, uh, just like drunks on the stage and there, and he's like, I gotta get out of here. Drunks.
Yeah, it used to exist more in, like, the old, before they went live to tape, when, like, Carson was truly live. And there were just, things would go wrong, right? No, Carson was not live. when there would be like moments early on in the early years and there, yeah, you got, you got like, uh, uh, just like drunks on the stage and there, and he's like, I gotta get out of here. Drunks.
There was an episode where like, I want to say like Peter, uh, what's his name?
There was an episode where like, I want to say like Peter, uh, what's his name?
Peter Lawford. And two other people in a movie that we've all forgotten are on their promotional tour and they're just drunk. They were just drunk on that stage.
Peter Lawford. And two other people in a movie that we've all forgotten are on their promotional tour and they're just drunk. They were just drunk on that stage.
I think they talk later about how the mistake was there wasn't a meal. There needed to be food.
I think they talk later about how the mistake was there wasn't a meal. There needed to be food.
Drunk is funny.
Drunk is funny.
I sometimes think that the reason there's such a focus on cancel culture is because it used to be more fun to be a celebrity. You could drive your car through a plate glass window and tip somebody 500 bucks and nobody heard about it.
I sometimes think that the reason there's such a focus on cancel culture is because it used to be more fun to be a celebrity. You could drive your car through a plate glass window and tip somebody 500 bucks and nobody heard about it.
Thrift savings from the government. I had that too.
Thrift savings from the government. I had that too.
Where's your head on social media right now? What do you mean? Are you using it? I feel conflicted about it. I think it's a corrupt force destroying the human soul, but I also get good recipes from it.
Where's your head on social media right now? What do you mean? Are you using it? I feel conflicted about it. I think it's a corrupt force destroying the human soul, but I also get good recipes from it.
Yeah, TikTok, you get good recipes. There's a viral Turkish pasta I made. Have you heard about the viral Turkish pasta?
Yeah, TikTok, you get good recipes. There's a viral Turkish pasta I made. Have you heard about the viral Turkish pasta?
I was gonna get to 69ing later, but we've just covered it so we can move on.
I was gonna get to 69ing later, but we've just covered it so we can move on.
Yeah, I think that's right. I think you don't need to go there, especially with the chef, because then you don't need the recipes.
Yeah, I think that's right. I think you don't need to go there, especially with the chef, because then you don't need the recipes.
You should tell your chef about the viral Turkish pasta. I don't eat pasta. You don't eat pasta? Is that a keto thing?
You should tell your chef about the viral Turkish pasta. I don't eat pasta. You don't eat pasta? Is that a keto thing?
You got to be single.
You got to be single.
Eye of the tiger. Yeah. You got to stay fit. You got to stay hot. You got to stay fit.
Eye of the tiger. Yeah. You got to stay fit. You got to stay hot. You got to stay fit.
Because here's the thing. When you fall in love with somebody, you stop caring what they look like. You got to get through that first step. Did that happen to you? Not yet. Not yet. Thanks for asking. Obviously not. Look how good I look. Not something I have to really worry about yet. Yeah, you look great. Oh, thanks for saying that. How old are you? I am 42. You look great for 42.
Because here's the thing. When you fall in love with somebody, you stop caring what they look like. You got to get through that first step. Did that happen to you? Not yet. Not yet. Thanks for asking. Obviously not. Look how good I look. Not something I have to really worry about yet. Yeah, you look great. Oh, thanks for saying that. How old are you? I am 42. You look great for 42.
I look great for 42.
I look great for 42.
Yeah, I don't think that what I do works if I get older.
Yeah, I don't think that what I do works if I get older.
Yeah, it's the quantum computer. Yeah, maybe that'll fix it. Well, there's that guy that's trying to seem young. You know that guy? I had him on my podcast. He seems out of his fucking gourd. He's not. I would rather die at 70 living the way I live than live to 250 the way he lives.
Yeah, it's the quantum computer. Yeah, maybe that'll fix it. Well, there's that guy that's trying to seem young. You know that guy? I had him on my podcast. He seems out of his fucking gourd. He's not. I would rather die at 70 living the way I live than live to 250 the way he lives.
He's eating kind of human chow. Right. Like a kibble.
He's eating kind of human chow. Right. Like a kibble.
Well, also, you know, all the studies also show that, like, what's the key to longevity? It's happy, close relationships. It's a bunch of, like, social things. uh, uh, things. And I gotta say, who wants to hang out with the guy that's like, I gotta go to bed. It's eight 30. I gotta get up in the morning and eat my kibble. You know, it's not like a friend. It's not like a great friend situation.
Well, also, you know, all the studies also show that, like, what's the key to longevity? It's happy, close relationships. It's a bunch of, like, social things. uh, uh, things. And I gotta say, who wants to hang out with the guy that's like, I gotta go to bed. It's eight 30. I gotta get up in the morning and eat my kibble. You know, it's not like a friend. It's not like a great friend situation.
And he's in touch.
And he's in touch.
Sounds like a great hang.
Sounds like a great hang.
Yeah, yes. A lot. Yes. First of all, good to hear that that's happening in person as well, because he also talks about his son's erections.
Yeah, yes. A lot. Yes. First of all, good to hear that that's happening in person as well, because he also talks about his son's erections.
I gotta go. So, now, you talked about you not really changing, and that actually was- Well, politically. Politically. No, politically. Well- That's what I took away going back and watching some of the original shows, which is that you say that your politics hasn't changed, that the right went where it went, and the left went super woke, and that you're the same.
I gotta go. So, now, you talked about you not really changing, and that actually was- Well, politically. Politically. No, politically. Well- That's what I took away going back and watching some of the original shows, which is that you say that your politics hasn't changed, that the right went where it went, and the left went super woke, and that you're the same.
And it's like, how often are you using it's not you, it's me when you're breaking up with somebody? Yeah.
And it's like, how often are you using it's not you, it's me when you're breaking up with somebody? Yeah.
Take a political answer or a human answer.
Take a political answer or a human answer.
That having healthy relationships contributes to longevity.
That having healthy relationships contributes to longevity.
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Yeah. We can do whatever we want.
Yeah. We can do whatever we want.
Let's see.
Let's see.
Yes, they do. They do a great job. They're right over there. It's a great team. It's a great team. So let's talk about how the Republicans have changed. You said in your special, Trump got the White House again, but he's not going to get your mind.
Yes, they do. They do a great job. They're right over there. It's a great team. It's a great team. So let's talk about how the Republicans have changed. You said in your special, Trump got the White House again, but he's not going to get your mind.
It's well, it is. I mean, look, I. There are some people that claim that they're not surprised by how bad it's been so far. I find that hard to believe because in all the you know, if if we knew in October that the planes were going to start bumping, we would have maybe said something right. Like, I don't nobody was like, hey, and then we may invade Panama. Like that wasn't anything.
It's well, it is. I mean, look, I. There are some people that claim that they're not surprised by how bad it's been so far. I find that hard to believe because in all the you know, if if we knew in October that the planes were going to start bumping, we would have maybe said something right. Like, I don't nobody was like, hey, and then we may invade Panama. Like that wasn't anything.
And Kamala Harris wasn't out there being like, and don't forget, we might invade Panama.
And Kamala Harris wasn't out there being like, and don't forget, we might invade Panama.
But a lot of this does seem to like, you know, the fucking, I think there's not just a lack of knowledge, but there's a disdain for knowledge that leads, whether it's Elon wandering around government bureaucracies, he knows nothing about cutting at random and then discovering that, oh, that person was working on bird flu. We should probably get him back.
But a lot of this does seem to like, you know, the fucking, I think there's not just a lack of knowledge, but there's a disdain for knowledge that leads, whether it's Elon wandering around government bureaucracies, he knows nothing about cutting at random and then discovering that, oh, that person was working on bird flu. We should probably get him back.
Or Trump's routing off about the Middle East. There's a lack of appreciation for expertise and nuance. Which is very, very fascist, very authoritarian, which is to say, you know what? Yeah, democracy is sometimes slow and complicated, but there's a reason and there are good reasons. There's a good reason that this is not how we've done things in the past. There is value to stability.
Or Trump's routing off about the Middle East. There's a lack of appreciation for expertise and nuance. Which is very, very fascist, very authoritarian, which is to say, you know what? Yeah, democracy is sometimes slow and complicated, but there's a reason and there are good reasons. There's a good reason that this is not how we've done things in the past. There is value to stability.
There's value to the slow and sometimes frustrating work of compromise and change.
There's value to the slow and sometimes frustrating work of compromise and change.
There's a... There was a congressman, Tom Malinowski, I think, and he said this on The Bulwark and it stuck with me. And he said that Trump understands our power, but not our values. And Joe Biden understands our values, but not our power. And it really stuck with me because there are moments where, yeah, you know, Nixon playing crazy. Donald Trump says things that change the contours of a debate.
There's a... There was a congressman, Tom Malinowski, I think, and he said this on The Bulwark and it stuck with me. And he said that Trump understands our power, but not our values. And Joe Biden understands our values, but not our power. And it really stuck with me because there are moments where, yeah, you know, Nixon playing crazy. Donald Trump says things that change the contours of a debate.
But he does it by proposing ethnic cleansing and some of those ghastly policies that any American president has ever talked about. You talk about, oh, we need to do some of these things. We're worried about the deficit. We know what the source of the deficit is. We know. It's actually not the debt. We know the source of the debt. We know the source of the deficit.
But he does it by proposing ethnic cleansing and some of those ghastly policies that any American president has ever talked about. You talk about, oh, we need to do some of these things. We're worried about the deficit. We know what the source of the deficit is. We know. It's actually not the debt. We know the source of the debt. We know the source of the deficit.
The number of federal workers has not increased as a share of the population. That's static. So there's not some big behemoth of federal workers. It's lower than it was in the 90s as a share.
The number of federal workers has not increased as a share of the population. That's static. So there's not some big behemoth of federal workers. It's lower than it was in the 90s as a share.
The source of our deficit and debt are the tax cuts. The Bush tax cuts, the Trump tax cuts, the cost of Medicare, the cost of Medicaid, the cost of Social Security, and the cost of the military. That's what drives the cost. That's it. Then there's cuts to be made and fraud to be found, for sure.
The source of our deficit and debt are the tax cuts. The Bush tax cuts, the Trump tax cuts, the cost of Medicare, the cost of Medicaid, the cost of Social Security, and the cost of the military. That's what drives the cost. That's it. Then there's cuts to be made and fraud to be found, for sure.
But the part of this, too, is it's not... Obviously, they have... They don't really respect...
But the part of this, too, is it's not... Obviously, they have... They don't really respect...
But you host a show that's about the value of debate. And one of the two sides no longer, they'll use a debate when it's useful. They'll use politics, normal politics when it's useful, but they'll cast it aside, right? They'll go through Congress when they can. They'll ignore it. when they can't.
But you host a show that's about the value of debate. And one of the two sides no longer, they'll use a debate when it's useful. They'll use politics, normal politics when it's useful, but they'll cast it aside, right? They'll go through Congress when they can. They'll ignore it. when they can't.
They'll come on your show and make a case when they can, but they'll say, you're an evil Marxist and all should be ignored when it's not useful. That's really dangerous. And so, yeah.
They'll come on your show and make a case when they can, but they'll say, you're an evil Marxist and all should be ignored when it's not useful. That's really dangerous. And so, yeah.
I catch it now and again. And I'm not like, click, click, click. I'm not waiting for the sound every Sunday like I used to when I was a kid. When I was a kid, I watched it every Sunday. Really? I wasn't a cool kid. It was a lot of Bill Maher in 60 Minutes and wondering if I was going to get invited to prom. The answer, I was not.
I catch it now and again. And I'm not like, click, click, click. I'm not waiting for the sound every Sunday like I used to when I was a kid. When I was a kid, I watched it every Sunday. Really? I wasn't a cool kid. It was a lot of Bill Maher in 60 Minutes and wondering if I was going to get invited to prom. The answer, I was not.
No, no, of course, but I guess I just, like, you know, we have a lot of problems in America. We've got the vice president going to Europe to complain about sort of German social dynamics, and it's like, okay, I mean, this is about a larger project of the right.
No, no, of course, but I guess I just, like, you know, we have a lot of problems in America. We've got the vice president going to Europe to complain about sort of German social dynamics, and it's like, okay, I mean, this is about a larger project of the right.
kind of a big thing and it should be to you especially you make your living doing it of course of course but as you said these are people that are right now in our own country attacking free speech every day so i take it a bit disingenuously when jd vance is in germany i just said that i know i agree with you that's why i'm rolling my eyes okay i'm rolling my eyes at the situation bill okay
kind of a big thing and it should be to you especially you make your living doing it of course of course but as you said these are people that are right now in our own country attacking free speech every day so i take it a bit disingenuously when jd vance is in germany i just said that i know i agree with you that's why i'm rolling my eyes okay i'm rolling my eyes at the situation bill okay
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So let's talk about our woke quotient a little bit. Let's talk about the woke mob. You say that, you know, the Republicans went the way they went and the Democrats went the way they went. And you're still right where you were. Is it just, and I don't mean this in a, I'm like genuinely asking, is it really just the social questions?
So let's talk about our woke quotient a little bit. Let's talk about the woke mob. You say that, you know, the Republicans went the way they went and the Democrats went the way they went. And you're still right where you were. Is it just, and I don't mean this in a, I'm like genuinely asking, is it really just the social questions?
I mean, it's not about like the Inflation Reduction Act and like monetary policy when you say the Democrats. It's just about...
I mean, it's not about like the Inflation Reduction Act and like monetary policy when you say the Democrats. It's just about...
to a different place. There's always been a center, a center left, and a left. That's always been the case. There were things that the Vietnam protesters said that was anathema to what was mainstream for Democrats at the time. But put aside the specific of the issue. Joe Biden was for a two-state solution. Kamala Harris was for a two-state solution.
to a different place. There's always been a center, a center left, and a left. That's always been the case. There were things that the Vietnam protesters said that was anathema to what was mainstream for Democrats at the time. But put aside the specific of the issue. Joe Biden was for a two-state solution. Kamala Harris was for a two-state solution.
Most mainstream Democrats are for a two-state solution. Donald Trump has embraced Benjamin Netanyahu and no two-state solution, no deal on the table.
Most mainstream Democrats are for a two-state solution. Donald Trump has embraced Benjamin Netanyahu and no two-state solution, no deal on the table.
So, Pod Save America, I've taken a lot of shit for what I've said about Israel, my belief in a two-state solution, my horror at what Benjamin Netanyahu has done, but my belief that we ought to be critical of Israel, not just because of what it has done in Gaza, and not just what it has done to the Palestinians, but because it is not in the interest of Israel.
So, Pod Save America, I've taken a lot of shit for what I've said about Israel, my belief in a two-state solution, my horror at what Benjamin Netanyahu has done, but my belief that we ought to be critical of Israel, not just because of what it has done in Gaza, and not just what it has done to the Palestinians, but because it is not in the interest of Israel.
to create the conditions that they're creating. I am not what you would call woke on this topic. More woke than me. But not what elected Democrats are saying, which I think represent the people that would ultimately be wielding
to create the conditions that they're creating. I am not what you would call woke on this topic. More woke than me. But not what elected Democrats are saying, which I think represent the people that would ultimately be wielding
So, like, what are the, like, are there issues where you see, like, the mainstream Democrats, elected figures, not people on college campuses or organizations that have moved left because they're captured by whatever lefty part of their staff or whatever?
So, like, what are the, like, are there issues where you see, like, the mainstream Democrats, elected figures, not people on college campuses or organizations that have moved left because they're captured by whatever lefty part of their staff or whatever?
Yeah, well, maybe she feels an obligation, a moral obligation, that the best way that she can represent her values is to be this one voice.
Yeah, well, maybe she feels an obligation, a moral obligation, that the best way that she can represent her values is to be this one voice.
Right, there's 434 other members of the House. So one should be from Palestine? I'm not saying one should be from Palestine. I'm saying that she can in an important debate. Well, it's what it seems like and what it is. She's obviously representing her constituents.
Right, there's 434 other members of the House. So one should be from Palestine? I'm not saying one should be from Palestine. I'm saying that she can in an important debate. Well, it's what it seems like and what it is. She's obviously representing her constituents.
She has a lot of Palestinian constituents, but also feeling like that is a role that she can play in an important debate, that she is not just a member of Congress for one district, but she is representing a point of view that she doesn't feel like is often represented. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Even when, by the way, I have been extremely critical of what she has said.
She has a lot of Palestinian constituents, but also feeling like that is a role that she can play in an important debate, that she is not just a member of Congress for one district, but she is representing a point of view that she doesn't feel like is often represented. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Even when, by the way, I have been extremely critical of what she has said.
But back to elected Democrats. I think the reason I'm bringing this up is sometimes I feel like, You have Democrats. There is an entire Republican apparatus that exists to lift up the dumbest, most extreme campus professors, organizations, also mainstream politicians who say something stupid that comes off terribly and have that represent Democrats. And that it actually has an impact.
But back to elected Democrats. I think the reason I'm bringing this up is sometimes I feel like, You have Democrats. There is an entire Republican apparatus that exists to lift up the dumbest, most extreme campus professors, organizations, also mainstream politicians who say something stupid that comes off terribly and have that represent Democrats. And that it actually has an impact.
And then we end up in a, yeah, I'm just, do you think that's true?
And then we end up in a, yeah, I'm just, do you think that's true?
So I, I largely agree with that, but I think sometimes we lay the blame at the feet of Democrats for two reasons. One, uh, You know, there's bias in the media. But one of the ways the media is biased is that it treats Democrats as the protagonist and Republicans as the antagonist. So Democrats have agency. They're people you can reach. They're people you can persuade.
So I, I largely agree with that, but I think sometimes we lay the blame at the feet of Democrats for two reasons. One, uh, You know, there's bias in the media. But one of the ways the media is biased is that it treats Democrats as the protagonist and Republicans as the antagonist. So Democrats have agency. They're people you can reach. They're people you can persuade.
They're people you believe will try to do the right thing. And they're people that will actually respond to you.
They're people you believe will try to do the right thing. And they're people that will actually respond to you.
I think when people feel that there's a liberal bias in a lot of mainstream coverage, one of the manifestations of it is that they are treated like the protagonist. Republicans are, if not villains, they're kind of other and removed. Correct. And Democrats are meant to be the people that respond.
I think when people feel that there's a liberal bias in a lot of mainstream coverage, one of the manifestations of it is that they are treated like the protagonist. Republicans are, if not villains, they're kind of other and removed. Correct. And Democrats are meant to be the people that respond.
Well, one of the other things it does, though, is it means Republicans aren't held as much accountable for their own decisions.
Well, one of the other things it does, though, is it means Republicans aren't held as much accountable for their own decisions.
And I think part of it, too, the other piece of it is that people are just uncomfortable with saying, hold on a second. There's a... Yeah, Democrats should do a better job of tamping down misinformation and lies. But we're drowning in it. We're drowning in it. Yeah, I wish Democrats were better at pushing back against this bullshit. But we're kind of asking them to solve for a society problem.
And I think part of it, too, the other piece of it is that people are just uncomfortable with saying, hold on a second. There's a... Yeah, Democrats should do a better job of tamping down misinformation and lies. But we're drowning in it. We're drowning in it. Yeah, I wish Democrats were better at pushing back against this bullshit. But we're kind of asking them to solve for a society problem.
You got, like, Jerry Connolly as the minority leader in this House committee raising his hand to beg Nancy Mace to stop saying a slur. And it's like, we can't win a fight that way. We're not going to be able to... Like, we're... These people don't care what you have to say. They want the fight. They want you to yell at them for saying the wrong thing.
You got, like, Jerry Connolly as the minority leader in this House committee raising his hand to beg Nancy Mace to stop saying a slur. And it's like, we can't win a fight that way. We're not going to be able to... Like, we're... These people don't care what you have to say. They want the fight. They want you to yell at them for saying the wrong thing.
They don't care what you have to say about any of this.
They don't care what you have to say about any of this.
Yeah. And I think there are, like, those are the political questions, the strategic questions we have to ask. But I think it's also worth saying, hold on a second. The Trump administration is illegally shutting down a government agency that is our counterweight to China around the world. Yeah, true.
Yeah. And I think there are, like, those are the political questions, the strategic questions we have to ask. But I think it's also worth saying, hold on a second. The Trump administration is illegally shutting down a government agency that is our counterweight to China around the world. Yeah, true.
And we all kind of understand that it's hard to tell people why it's important and nobody's going to understand is you got to let that one go.
And we all kind of understand that it's hard to tell people why it's important and nobody's going to understand is you got to let that one go.
That's what they say they believe. But come on, Joe Biden and Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi and Akeem Jeffries and Kamala Harris. These are mainstream figures that are not dangerous at all. They have they either are lying to themselves or persuading themselves to believe that Democrats pose a threat because it is part of the project of denying the legitimacy of Democratic politics.
That's what they say they believe. But come on, Joe Biden and Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi and Akeem Jeffries and Kamala Harris. These are mainstream figures that are not dangerous at all. They have they either are lying to themselves or persuading themselves to believe that Democrats pose a threat because it is part of the project of denying the legitimacy of Democratic politics.
What was something he did? But like, I'm not, I'm not.
What was something he did? But like, I'm not, I'm not.
Let's talk about it. But before we do, are there other, that's the one people come to. Is there another example in your mind of Joe Biden that somehow was super woke?
Let's talk about it. But before we do, are there other, that's the one people come to. Is there another example in your mind of Joe Biden that somehow was super woke?
Let's talk about I got to my car. This is trans. Let's talk about it. The position like other countries have national health services. The Democratic position is leave it up to parents, doctors. Just leave. It's not the government's decision. That's the democratic position. What's wrong with that position?
Let's talk about I got to my car. This is trans. Let's talk about it. The position like other countries have national health services. The Democratic position is leave it up to parents, doctors. Just leave. It's not the government's decision. That's the democratic position. What's wrong with that position?
The democratic position, right?
The democratic position, right?
So look, there are delicate problems here. But wait, wait, there's delicate problems here. And there's a delicate problem where you have a kid, who is either non-binary or trans, who feels scared at home, feels unsafe at home.
So look, there are delicate problems here. But wait, wait, there's delicate problems here. And there's a delicate problem where you have a kid, who is either non-binary or trans, who feels scared at home, feels unsafe at home.
There are things that happen in the world. But for the most part, that's not what we're talking about. For the most part, what we're talking about is a teenager who has felt that they have a gender dysmorphia. So what they feel like is that they don't, they feel deeply unhappy, depression, all really rampant.
There are things that happen in the world. But for the most part, that's not what we're talking about. For the most part, what we're talking about is a teenager who has felt that they have a gender dysmorphia. So what they feel like is that they don't, they feel deeply unhappy, depression, all really rampant.
Is that not the end?
Is that not the end?
Yes, explain. I think we all get it. But yeah, explain it. Entrapment.
Yes, explain. I think we all get it. But yeah, explain it. Entrapment.
Right. I'm sorry. You're right.
Right. I'm sorry. You're right.
That was rude. That was rude. Bill, finish. You're explaining how being trans is like being recruited into Al Qaeda. Yeah.
That was rude. That was rude. Bill, finish. You're explaining how being trans is like being recruited into Al Qaeda. Yeah.
Can I just respond to something?
Can I just respond to something?
Now I can respond?
Now I can respond?
I gotta go.
I gotta go.
You definitely said your piece.
You definitely said your piece.
Just stay for one second. Okay, I'm kidding.
Just stay for one second. Okay, I'm kidding.
All right, no, I know. Okay. A lot of things there. First of all. Oof. This is going to sound confrontational. For a long time, people said, oh, older gay people are recruiting kids to be gay. And they wouldn't really be gay. It was they were being recruited. They were being groomed that that they were being drawn. That was their conservative position.
All right, no, I know. Okay. A lot of things there. First of all. Oof. This is going to sound confrontational. For a long time, people said, oh, older gay people are recruiting kids to be gay. And they wouldn't really be gay. It was they were being recruited. They were being groomed that that they were being drawn. That was their conservative position.
The Christian right position for a long time was the reason you don't want to have gay teachers is they're going to recruit kids. That the gay lifestyle is going to look so enticing and so exciting that it's going to bring these poor defenseless boys, mostly boys, into the gay lifestyle and destroy their lives. But of course that wasn't true. Really, all gay teachers were an example, right?
The Christian right position for a long time was the reason you don't want to have gay teachers is they're going to recruit kids. That the gay lifestyle is going to look so enticing and so exciting that it's going to bring these poor defenseless boys, mostly boys, into the gay lifestyle and destroy their lives. But of course that wasn't true. Really, all gay teachers were an example, right?
Look, there are a few examples of people getting older and realizing that they shouldn't have transitioned. That happens. It's real. That's real.
Look, there are a few examples of people getting older and realizing that they shouldn't have transitioned. That happens. It's real. That's real.
But there are also really important surgeries that people get for their heart, and they go wrong, and somebody dies. And nobody says we must stop the cardiologists. No one says we must stop the surgeons. We say, let's- That's your analogy? Well, my analogy is only that- Wait, let me finish.
But there are also really important surgeries that people get for their heart, and they go wrong, and somebody dies. And nobody says we must stop the cardiologists. No one says we must stop the surgeons. We say, let's- That's your analogy? Well, my analogy is only that- Wait, let me finish.
Yes. Is it my turn to talk? You're right. And what you say is, let's make sure that this version of it is being practiced well. We don't get rid of the specific surgery. We don't throw out a whole field of medicine. We say, let's make sure we're doing it in a way that's healthy. The science, the research, all right, makes clear that, yes, there are exceptions.
Yes. Is it my turn to talk? You're right. And what you say is, let's make sure that this version of it is being practiced well. We don't get rid of the specific surgery. We don't throw out a whole field of medicine. We say, let's make sure we're doing it in a way that's healthy. The science, the research, all right, makes clear that, yes, there are exceptions.
Yes, there are people practicing it in ways that maybe go too far. But for the most part— Study after study shows that gender-affirming care saves... Wait, let me... I'm talking. It's my turn. I was so quiet for so long after I interrupted a few times. But once I stopped talking, boy, I was good at it. and that gender affirming care saves a lot of lives.
Yes, there are people practicing it in ways that maybe go too far. But for the most part— Study after study shows that gender-affirming care saves... Wait, let me... I'm talking. It's my turn. I was so quiet for so long after I interrupted a few times. But once I stopped talking, boy, I was good at it. and that gender affirming care saves a lot of lives.
And the, and the truth is we talk about these edge cases, talk about athletes, talk about locker rooms, but for the most part, what we're talking about is a very small group of people that just want the opportunity to live and express themselves. And there is a war on that group of people from the right to make salient extreme cases, edge cases, uh,
And the, and the truth is we talk about these edge cases, talk about athletes, talk about locker rooms, but for the most part, what we're talking about is a very small group of people that just want the opportunity to live and express themselves. And there is a war on that group of people from the right to make salient extreme cases, edge cases, uh,
not for the purposes of stopping those, but for doing what the Trump administration is doing entirely, which is stopping all gender-affirming care altogether and making trans people fucking nervous when they have to pee at the airport, right? Which is the end result of all this.
not for the purposes of stopping those, but for doing what the Trump administration is doing entirely, which is stopping all gender-affirming care altogether and making trans people fucking nervous when they have to pee at the airport, right? Which is the end result of all this.
But because it is a hard question. Because it is a serious question. It is a personal question. I don't want Donald Trump deciding. I want parents and doctors.
But because it is a hard question. Because it is a serious question. It is a personal question. I don't want Donald Trump deciding. I want parents and doctors.
Well, I don't think parents should get shut out. There are rare exceptions. Look, we all believe that parents should have the decisions over their children, but we also recognize that some parents do such a bad fucking job that the kids are in danger. That happens outside of trans issues. That happens all the time. It's terrible.
Well, I don't think parents should get shut out. There are rare exceptions. Look, we all believe that parents should have the decisions over their children, but we also recognize that some parents do such a bad fucking job that the kids are in danger. That happens outside of trans issues. That happens all the time. It's terrible.
Somehow the fact that there are terrible parents in the world gets erased on these questions. Do I think that schools should, as a baseline, be keeping a secret from parents? Of fucking course not. No one thinks that.
Somehow the fact that there are terrible parents in the world gets erased on these questions. Do I think that schools should, as a baseline, be keeping a secret from parents? Of fucking course not. No one thinks that.
And the least bad answer is to not let the government decide from above. It's just to leave it up to people and parents and the kids and the doctors. Right? You want the government to ban gender-affirming care for kids?
And the least bad answer is to not let the government decide from above. It's just to leave it up to people and parents and the kids and the doctors. Right? You want the government to ban gender-affirming care for kids?
First of all, I'm not talking about winning or losing elections. I agree that there's a salience to this issue. I agree that this has been weaponized. I agree with all that, but I'm just talking about the issue itself. What does that card say?
First of all, I'm not talking about winning or losing elections. I agree that there's a salience to this issue. I agree that this has been weaponized. I agree with all that, but I'm just talking about the issue itself. What does that card say?
Let me see if I hit all my points that I wanted to make about this.
Let me see if I hit all my points that I wanted to make about this.
Um, let's not, you gotta go.
Um, let's not, you gotta go.
I'm just leaving. Bill Maher, everybody.
I'm just leaving. Bill Maher, everybody.
I had questions more. I had other questions. Oh, we could do it all day. Well, I guess not. We, we could. All right. Good. Bill Maher, everybody. Get out of here.
I had questions more. I had other questions. Oh, we could do it all day. Well, I guess not. We, we could. All right. Good. Bill Maher, everybody. Get out of here.
Both have hats? Oh, the tribe has spoken? Wow. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I've been saving these for a while.
Both have hats? Oh, the tribe has spoken? Wow. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I've been saving these for a while.
Well, they look great. It's going to deliver. It's just for those listening at home, they both, after we began, they both put on their The Tribe Has Spoken hats. That's right. Not one for Dan. They didn't get Dan in on this. We've been saving them for this occasion.
Well, they look great. It's going to deliver. It's just for those listening at home, they both, after we began, they both put on their The Tribe Has Spoken hats. That's right. Not one for Dan. They didn't get Dan in on this. We've been saving them for this occasion.
Yeah. And the season just ended this week, right? Yeah. That's right. The finale was last night. Yeah. And many months ago, I was on Survivor.
Yeah. And the season just ended this week, right? Yeah. That's right. The finale was last night. Yeah. And many months ago, I was on Survivor.
You know, Andy's out there living his dream, and then that's fine. But no, but I have a picture of our meeting, which was funny.
You know, Andy's out there living his dream, and then that's fine. But no, but I have a picture of our meeting, which was funny.
But I saw all my fellow castaways. Do they remember you?
But I saw all my fellow castaways. Do they remember you?
You remember me, short guy, first day? They're like, you're a producer, right? Yeah.
You remember me, short guy, first day? They're like, you're a producer, right? Yeah.
And who is the current president? Right. And is that person involved at all? Do we know what that person thinks about this?
And who is the current president? Right. And is that person involved at all? Do we know what that person thinks about this?
He's saying that first you put up the sporting dogs, up to the little dogs, then you got your other dogs, and then the best dog in each category, you know, pugs and so forth, they all go head to head in the final category where you're deciding.
He's saying that first you put up the sporting dogs, up to the little dogs, then you got your other dogs, and then the best dog in each category, you know, pugs and so forth, they all go head to head in the final category where you're deciding.
Right, exactly. And where a group of adults decide whether or not a Shih Tzu is better or worse than a Labrador. It's like, no, this one's better. Stupid.
Right, exactly. And where a group of adults decide whether or not a Shih Tzu is better or worse than a Labrador. It's like, no, this one's better. Stupid.
We're always talking about the cracks showing.
We're always talking about the cracks showing.
that honestly it's like that that take has that take it was it aged poorly and then it aged well again right I don't know I thought it no it started well it started right if you'd cut the first 20 seconds of that well I guess because he didn't he didn't end up competing in Michigan right well I guess what I mean is just that like the the liabilities he was describing were correct they ultimately did become Kamala's liabilities and cost us the country so there was some truth in that but Dean but Dean Phillips wasn't the way he wasn't the way he wasn't the way
that honestly it's like that that take has that take it was it aged poorly and then it aged well again right I don't know I thought it no it started well it started right if you'd cut the first 20 seconds of that well I guess because he didn't he didn't end up competing in Michigan right well I guess what I mean is just that like the the liabilities he was describing were correct they ultimately did become Kamala's liabilities and cost us the country so there was some truth in that but Dean but Dean Phillips wasn't the way he wasn't the way he wasn't the way
They're having a better holiday than we are.
They're having a better holiday than we are.
Right at the end there. Couldn't stick the landing. Couldn't stick the landing.
Right at the end there. Couldn't stick the landing. Couldn't stick the landing.
It's actually called Call Her Nothing.
It's actually called Call Her Nothing.
She's in the quiet car of the Trump train.
She's in the quiet car of the Trump train.
By the way, those are the cross promos we've been doing.
By the way, those are the cross promos we've been doing.
Yeah, the first one was just wrong. Just completely wrong.
Yeah, the first one was just wrong. Just completely wrong.
Trump's GOP is already dying.
Trump's GOP is already dying.
Can you tell us who authored that? Yes, I can.
Can you tell us who authored that? Yes, I can.
The Hill. Oh. Max Burns. The Hill, Washington's second choice to read on the toilet. What? Right? I think it's like third or fourth now.
The Hill. Oh. Max Burns. The Hill, Washington's second choice to read on the toilet. What? Right? I think it's like third or fourth now.
Did we ever get confirmation as to whether there was a deal? I don't think so.
Did we ever get confirmation as to whether there was a deal? I don't think so.
It's also just like, even where there are times where I feel sure of something, I'm so chastened by the history of recent events and my awareness that the future will come. You will have to measure it against what you thought in the past.
It's also just like, even where there are times where I feel sure of something, I'm so chastened by the history of recent events and my awareness that the future will come. You will have to measure it against what you thought in the past.
Yeah. And even more importantly, it's a huge problem for the country, what's happening.
Yeah. And even more importantly, it's a huge problem for the country, what's happening.
You know, it would be a less divided country if we were all Republicans, but that's also not the world I want to live in.
You know, it would be a less divided country if we were all Republicans, but that's also not the world I want to live in.
Yeah, I'm calling that a problem.
Yeah, I'm calling that a problem.
Yeah, I think that I feel like the interpretation that Sarah has there is completely fine. The hope that the that Seltzer was right is completely fine.
Yeah, I think that I feel like the interpretation that Sarah has there is completely fine. The hope that the that Seltzer was right is completely fine.
She's taken enough shit for this poll and she had the kind of courage of her convictions to do a poll the way she was accustomed to doing it, taking what the data showed her and releasing it, which is what a lot of pollsters refuse to do, which is why all the polls heard she got this one wrong. Whose take are we judging, Sarah?
She's taken enough shit for this poll and she had the kind of courage of her convictions to do a poll the way she was accustomed to doing it, taking what the data showed her and releasing it, which is what a lot of pollsters refuse to do, which is why all the polls heard she got this one wrong. Whose take are we judging, Sarah?
No, I actually don't think it is. I think it's the fucking keys.
No, I actually don't think it is. I think it's the fucking keys.
She said, you'll distribute my ashes over Des Moines.
She said, you'll distribute my ashes over Des Moines.
Because you know what? Because there's... We're people. People make mistakes. People get things wrong. The best methods lead to an incorrect result. But she had the humility and like the expertise to put behind it and the rigor. This guy's running out there being like, I've I've been in the sarcophagus and found the secret eye that tells you how politics will be in the future.
Because you know what? Because there's... We're people. People make mistakes. People get things wrong. The best methods lead to an incorrect result. But she had the humility and like the expertise to put behind it and the rigor. This guy's running out there being like, I've I've been in the sarcophagus and found the secret eye that tells you how politics will be in the future.
And it's embarrassing.
And it's embarrassing.
It's muddy at the beltway.
It's muddy at the beltway.
Right. The rest of us are cowards before time.
Right. The rest of us are cowards before time.
The this is an insurrection commentary was some of the dumbest fucking shit ever. And the indignity of having to actually walk through why it's so fucking stupid. I don't think we even have to. I don't think we ever had to. We never did.
The this is an insurrection commentary was some of the dumbest fucking shit ever. And the indignity of having to actually walk through why it's so fucking stupid. I don't think we even have to. I don't think we ever had to. We never did.
You're either stupid enough to believe it or you're full of shit. And I don't need to convince any of those people.
You're either stupid enough to believe it or you're full of shit. And I don't need to convince any of those people.
Yeah, good luck in life. I hope you figure out how to tie your shoes.
Yeah, good luck in life. I hope you figure out how to tie your shoes.
Okay, Saul, let's do another take, but this time kind of more throw it away. Who was that? Who was that? Yeah.
Okay, Saul, let's do another take, but this time kind of more throw it away. Who was that? Who was that? Yeah.
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So this is somebody claiming that it's a conspiracy on Epstein's Island to remove Joe Biden?
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So this is somebody claiming that it's a conspiracy on Epstein's Island to remove Joe Biden?
Missed it. Missed it.
Missed it. Missed it.
I think you do. That is chilling. The two of you calling that name out there being like, I remember who said it. That is chilling.
I think you do. That is chilling. The two of you calling that name out there being like, I remember who said it. That is chilling.
Yeah, it's very frustrating and stupid.
Yeah, it's very frustrating and stupid.
No, he's not the game theory guy. What happened to that guy? Where'd that guy go?
No, he's not the game theory guy. What happened to that guy? Where'd that guy go?
And another kicker, Kamala Harris, black. Right. That's also an important thing to know. Joe Biden. White.
And another kicker, Kamala Harris, black. Right. That's also an important thing to know. Joe Biden. White.
It was pretty bad. A white guy accusing other white guys of being racist for trying to dethrone a white guy. It reminds me of this other like you'll see like a white male comedian refer to white women and make fun of them because he knows he can't say women. And so he has to add the white so that he can make fun of women. You know, it's like I'm suspicious. I'm suspicious. Color me suspicious.
It was pretty bad. A white guy accusing other white guys of being racist for trying to dethrone a white guy. It reminds me of this other like you'll see like a white male comedian refer to white women and make fun of them because he knows he can't say women. And so he has to add the white so that he can make fun of women. You know, it's like I'm suspicious. I'm suspicious. Color me suspicious.
That was a good one. I think that wins for me as well. That also was a moment where also the worm kind of turned.
That was a good one. I think that wins for me as well. That also was a moment where also the worm kind of turned.
Sorry. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no. And you know what? Honestly, I would like a cogent, comprehensible president. If that makes me an ableist, so be it. If that's what ableism means now, then I'm an ableist.
Sorry. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no. And you know what? Honestly, I would like a cogent, comprehensible president. If that makes me an ableist, so be it. If that's what ableism means now, then I'm an ableist.
So that was about RFK Jr. believing, according to the the rules that have traditionally been used, that he would have gotten a slot at a presidential debate, which which might be true. And then there was a separate discourse about whether it was bad for the country that the debate commission was basically ignored. And then the candidates spoke directly and figured out debates with the networks.
So that was about RFK Jr. believing, according to the the rules that have traditionally been used, that he would have gotten a slot at a presidential debate, which which might be true. And then there was a separate discourse about whether it was bad for the country that the debate commission was basically ignored. And then the candidates spoke directly and figured out debates with the networks.
The whole thing was so, everything about it was stupid. Everything about it was frustrating. Like I love Chapel Roan. I think Chapel Roan, like a lot of the people criticizing Chapel Roan should go outside and touch grass.
The whole thing was so, everything about it was stupid. Everything about it was frustrating. Like I love Chapel Roan. I think Chapel Roan, like a lot of the people criticizing Chapel Roan should go outside and touch grass.
And like I'm being perfectly clear and then kind of like a pundit, just like fucking losing it, like like being like, how dare you misinterpret my completely elliptical and confusing way of talking about politics. Allow me to make myself perfectly clear. I'm once again going to say something similar. That's very hard to interpret. It was like for no one.
And like I'm being perfectly clear and then kind of like a pundit, just like fucking losing it, like like being like, how dare you misinterpret my completely elliptical and confusing way of talking about politics. Allow me to make myself perfectly clear. I'm once again going to say something similar. That's very hard to interpret. It was like for no one.
And it's like, you're not a political expert. You're putting yourself out there. You became incredibly famous in this year. That must be an insane amount of pressure. Why are we doing this?
And it's like, you're not a political expert. You're putting yourself out there. You became incredibly famous in this year. That must be an insane amount of pressure. Why are we doing this?
Well, I think like the bigger thing to take from it, it's not like this one moment about Chapel Rome, but like, you know, like there was like a big chunk of people, like, The people that got behind Trump were super excited and gung-ho about it.
Well, I think like the bigger thing to take from it, it's not like this one moment about Chapel Rome, but like, you know, like there was like a big chunk of people, like, The people that got behind Trump were super excited and gung-ho about it.
A few people were like that about Kamala, but there were a lot of people like Chapel Roan that felt like it was uncool or problematic to full-throatedly get behind a Democrat. And I would like that to not be true in the future. It'd be great if we were a movement where Chapel Roan was excited and it was valuable for her to be a part of it and in both directions. That'd be cool. That'd be nice.
A few people were like that about Kamala, but there were a lot of people like Chapel Roan that felt like it was uncool or problematic to full-throatedly get behind a Democrat. And I would like that to not be true in the future. It'd be great if we were a movement where Chapel Roan was excited and it was valuable for her to be a part of it and in both directions. That'd be cool. That'd be nice.
Boy, would it. Boy, would it.
Boy, would it. Boy, would it.
Too many fags in the Democratic Party, huh, Travis? Jesus Christ.
Too many fags in the Democratic Party, huh, Travis? Jesus Christ.
Yeah, we have a huge problem. I think it is. I think pointing at consultants is whatever, but it's a collective inability to sound like normal people. Also, a bunch of podcasts where it's like, hey, come over here. You can say whatever you want. We don't care. I don't love that. But on our side, it's like, you better be careful. There are tripwires, and you're going to hit them.
Yeah, we have a huge problem. I think it is. I think pointing at consultants is whatever, but it's a collective inability to sound like normal people. Also, a bunch of podcasts where it's like, hey, come over here. You can say whatever you want. We don't care. I don't love that. But on our side, it's like, you better be careful. There are tripwires, and you're going to hit them.
Look, we're having a human problem. We're having a difficulty reaching voters.
Look, we're having a human problem. We're having a difficulty reaching voters.
Think about what? Here's what I've been thinking about just as we watch the final few weeks of the Biden administration. And it becomes clear in just these past few weeks how ridiculous the assertion was that he was in shape to be president over the next four years. That my regret is that it took until... Not just seeing him once behind the scenes when we went to the White House.
Think about what? Here's what I've been thinking about just as we watch the final few weeks of the Biden administration. And it becomes clear in just these past few weeks how ridiculous the assertion was that he was in shape to be president over the next four years. That my regret is that it took until... Not just seeing him once behind the scenes when we went to the White House.
Not just seeing him a second time when we saw him at that fundraiser. But till the debate, to be full-throatedly honest. Don't we this. I wasn't there. Didn't I say I?
Not just seeing him a second time when we saw him at that fundraiser. But till the debate, to be full-throatedly honest. Don't we this. I wasn't there. Didn't I say I?
I was there when we saw him. Well, some of us were there. He was at the Clooney fundraiser. You're part of it. You're fucking part of it.
I was there when we saw him. Well, some of us were there. He was at the Clooney fundraiser. You're part of it. You're fucking part of it.
But I think... Because he wasn't dropping out and it seemed like a fait accompli, we were very hard on Biden and wanting him to get out there to dispel questions about his age. But looking on it back, could we have gotten there faster? Could we have pushed harder? I don't know. But I come away from that moment thinking more about how we got to that place in the first place.
But I think... Because he wasn't dropping out and it seemed like a fait accompli, we were very hard on Biden and wanting him to get out there to dispel questions about his age. But looking on it back, could we have gotten there faster? Could we have pushed harder? I don't know. But I come away from that moment thinking more about how we got to that place in the first place.
Right, right, right. But he did. But the pressure did come.
Right, right, right. But he did. But the pressure did come.
No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. Some of the best discourse. Some of the best and most of the best discourse we've ever had.
No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. Some of the best discourse. Some of the best and most of the best discourse we've ever had.
Debate commission. We choose debate commission. Sometimes an ugly, shitty little pug makes it to best in show and that thing never wins.
Debate commission. We choose debate commission. Sometimes an ugly, shitty little pug makes it to best in show and that thing never wins.
What a weird thing to say. He's always tongue-in-cheek about those kinds of things, but it is just a reminder that masculinity is a prison that locks from the inside. Oh, is it gay to have a birthday, fellas?
What a weird thing to say. He's always tongue-in-cheek about those kinds of things, but it is just a reminder that masculinity is a prison that locks from the inside. Oh, is it gay to have a birthday, fellas?
I think it's that George Soros, via his vehicle of Taylor Swift, is going to push a pro-gay, pro-trans, pro-abortion agenda.
I think it's that George Soros, via his vehicle of Taylor Swift, is going to push a pro-gay, pro-trans, pro-abortion agenda.
I don't know if she stuck the landing on that one.
I don't know if she stuck the landing on that one.
It's also just like goldfish level memory. Taylor Swift has endorsed Joe Biden in 2020, endorsed Marsha Blackburn's opponent, got involved in a bunch of different issues. Ties just pride every pride when she's on tour. Like just it just this is just part of her politics in the documentary. Yeah. There's a documentary about it where she's on film talking about why she wants to talk about politics.
It's also just like goldfish level memory. Taylor Swift has endorsed Joe Biden in 2020, endorsed Marsha Blackburn's opponent, got involved in a bunch of different issues. Ties just pride every pride when she's on tour. Like just it just this is just part of her politics in the documentary. Yeah. There's a documentary about it where she's on film talking about why she wants to talk about politics.
Just like you're just paying attention. But but like even though you don't have like the world exists when your eyes are closed.
Just like you're just paying attention. But but like even though you don't have like the world exists when your eyes are closed.
There's a fallacy in philosophy that Tommy will remember from his studies, which is, it's called no true Scotsman. No true Scotsman, which is, he says, I'm not against vaccines. He's like, well, are you? You've said this or that. I'm just for safe vaccines. Well, can you name any safe vaccines? No, I'm for safe vaccines, but there are no safe vaccines. What about this vaccine?
There's a fallacy in philosophy that Tommy will remember from his studies, which is, it's called no true Scotsman. No true Scotsman, which is, he says, I'm not against vaccines. He's like, well, are you? You've said this or that. I'm just for safe vaccines. Well, can you name any safe vaccines? No, I'm for safe vaccines, but there are no safe vaccines. What about this vaccine?
Well, that's not a truly safe vaccine. What about this vaccine? It's not a truly safe vaccine. It's a way of claiming something while never actually allowing it to be true. Sounds like Twitter. Yeah. Fun. Yeah. Guys, give me a charge of the water. Enjoy, everybody. It's very bad. Drink up. Drink up. Drink while you can. Yeah. Get all those shots.
Well, that's not a truly safe vaccine. What about this vaccine? It's not a truly safe vaccine. It's a way of claiming something while never actually allowing it to be true. Sounds like Twitter. Yeah. Fun. Yeah. Guys, give me a charge of the water. Enjoy, everybody. It's very bad. Drink up. Drink up. Drink while you can. Yeah. Get all those shots.
30 years from now, everyone's teeth are going to fall out of their fucking face and be like, I wonder why this happened.
30 years from now, everyone's teeth are going to fall out of their fucking face and be like, I wonder why this happened.
You have one person who's going to prosecute this.
You have one person who's going to prosecute this.
Like we said about the January 6th hearings, so good they should be illegal. Yeah.
Like we said about the January 6th hearings, so good they should be illegal. Yeah.
Like the Jets and the Sharks.
Like the Jets and the Sharks.
It's just before you would have a lot of video. Someone had a flip cam or something. Shameik was busy at the fucking newspaper until 2 in the morning wasting his fucking college life on op-eds. Oh yeah, Williams' record really make a difference? I was playing music.
It's just before you would have a lot of video. Someone had a flip cam or something. Shameik was busy at the fucking newspaper until 2 in the morning wasting his fucking college life on op-eds. Oh yeah, Williams' record really make a difference? I was playing music.
I think Trump's take really was the take of the year. I mean, it it it. It became the discourse. It was the hinge point. It was one of the policy hinges of the whole election.
I think Trump's take really was the take of the year. I mean, it it it. It became the discourse. It was the hinge point. It was one of the policy hinges of the whole election.
That's the take that can kill. Yeah.
That's the take that can kill. Yeah.
Being a speechwriter is about figuring out the best way to convince a bunch of people to either come along with you or agree with you or support you. I think that's a lot of what Survivor is. You know what?
Being a speechwriter is about figuring out the best way to convince a bunch of people to either come along with you or agree with you or support you. I think that's a lot of what Survivor is. You know what?
Technically true. Technically true.
Technically true. Technically true.
Yeah, really crushing on both this year. Got my finger on the goddamn pulse this year. Yeah, thank you for that. Next up.
Yeah, really crushing on both this year. Got my finger on the goddamn pulse this year. Yeah, thank you for that. Next up.
Yeah, now she's in charge of the TSA. The one thing is, it's funny, because that was a very cogent and reasonable take, but Trump was like, actually, I don't need to worry about any of that. I'm going to pick the opposite, a piece of shit guy that makes women uncomfortable, and it won't matter. Yeah.
Yeah, now she's in charge of the TSA. The one thing is, it's funny, because that was a very cogent and reasonable take, but Trump was like, actually, I don't need to worry about any of that. I'm going to pick the opposite, a piece of shit guy that makes women uncomfortable, and it won't matter. Yeah.
I think people hate the Biden administration so much that I can choose one of the biggest assholes around.
I think people hate the Biden administration so much that I can choose one of the biggest assholes around.
Yeah, I feel like... No, no, I think the polls are... And that's so important to keep in mind, that polls are... If you've ever heard us say that, polls are a snapshot. In time.
Yeah, I feel like... No, no, I think the polls are... And that's so important to keep in mind, that polls are... If you've ever heard us say that, polls are a snapshot. In time.
If you look back on the year, but you take away from all of these like very reasonable, like these are all opinions about like ways things could matter at the margins in a race that wasn't really fought. Like, but we were, but oh, but would that it mattered, but we're so fucked it doesn't.
If you look back on the year, but you take away from all of these like very reasonable, like these are all opinions about like ways things could matter at the margins in a race that wasn't really fought. Like, but we were, but oh, but would that it mattered, but we're so fucked it doesn't.
You know, I... I remember, I'm not judging. We were all in that headspace. But man, were we grading on a fucking curve at that time.
You know, I... I remember, I'm not judging. We were all in that headspace. But man, were we grading on a fucking curve at that time.
Well, that's the point I was making about old Seth Meyers. And I would say, by the way, that's the bar that we had set for ourselves, and it was too low. Too low. We're like, Joe Biden is losing the election, but good news, he can occasionally do a public event that's kind of a draw. What are we doing here? Not winning.
Well, that's the point I was making about old Seth Meyers. And I would say, by the way, that's the bar that we had set for ourselves, and it was too low. Too low. We're like, Joe Biden is losing the election, but good news, he can occasionally do a public event that's kind of a draw. What are we doing here? Not winning.
That was pre-State of the Union. It was pre-State of the Union.
That was pre-State of the Union. It was pre-State of the Union.
The last little air out of the balloon.
The last little air out of the balloon.
That was the Seth Meyers appearance, though, where Amy Poehler had to come out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was at the point where he was no longer doing things by himself.
That was the Seth Meyers appearance, though, where Amy Poehler had to come out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was at the point where he was no longer doing things by himself.
I like that. I have to say, in terms of bad takes, the meta bad take of the year was, hey guys, I know it sounds crazy, but I'm going to go on Survivor. I think it'll be good. Yeah, that's true. That was a bad take. Did you have fun? Yeah, I had a good time. I had a good time. Missed three dinners. You did miss three dinners. Missed three dinners.
I like that. I have to say, in terms of bad takes, the meta bad take of the year was, hey guys, I know it sounds crazy, but I'm going to go on Survivor. I think it'll be good. Yeah, that's true. That was a bad take. Did you have fun? Yeah, I had a good time. I had a good time. Missed three dinners. You did miss three dinners. Missed three dinners.
Would Michael Phelps be as good of a swimmer if he had diarrhea in the pool and then killed himself? Huh.
Would Michael Phelps be as good of a swimmer if he had diarrhea in the pool and then killed himself? Huh.
And I think, look, and it's funny because it feels like mean. Like we're punching down. Yeah. But I think it's worth just saying, like, there was a lot of people like Alan Lichtman, which were people that were looking at, like, a miasma of contradictory data and saying they knew the answer. And, like... How many times are we going to fucking do this? Because I cling to those people, too.
And I think, look, and it's funny because it feels like mean. Like we're punching down. Yeah. But I think it's worth just saying, like, there was a lot of people like Alan Lichtman, which were people that were looking at, like, a miasma of contradictory data and saying they knew the answer. And, like... How many times are we going to fucking do this? Because I cling to those people, too.
Like, you know, you're like you're just like reading all things. And there's this person like looking at me like, here's why it's so clear what's going to happen. And like you want those things to be true. Like you want to believe those things, but you just can't. And this was like a signal, ridiculous example of it.
Like, you know, you're like you're just like reading all things. And there's this person like looking at me like, here's why it's so clear what's going to happen. And like you want those things to be true. Like you want to believe those things, but you just can't. And this was like a signal, ridiculous example of it.
But no, you're not going to confidently predict the future based on your 14 political science fucking keys.
But no, you're not going to confidently predict the future based on your 14 political science fucking keys.
Alan. Alan Lickman. Your prize money's in the mail.
Alan. Alan Lickman. Your prize money's in the mail.
Hey, we found a set of keys in the parking lot.
Hey, we found a set of keys in the parking lot.
John, how many walks did you take this year?
John, how many walks did you take this year?
Not one walk without your phone.
Not one walk without your phone.
This is our last chance to talk about it. How's that late alarm?
This is our last chance to talk about it. How's that late alarm?
Defrosting turkeys all day long? I need more corn for the chili.
Defrosting turkeys all day long? I need more corn for the chili.
How's your spam problem, Tommy? A lot of self-reflection going on?
How's your spam problem, Tommy? A lot of self-reflection going on?
Every other day, the message box?
Every other day, the message box?
It feels like all the time and never enough.
It feels like all the time and never enough.
All right. Let's hear Lovett's. My resolution is to not spend the year worrying about
All right. Let's hear Lovett's. My resolution is to not spend the year worrying about
food and diet like for the first time to go into this year without any kind of like emotionally unhealthy relationship with food and diet and exercise that's my resolution and to keep that going oh yeah well how did you find the willpower to do that where did you gain the strength first of all yeah yeah yeah we're making america healthy again one injection to the hip at a time
food and diet like for the first time to go into this year without any kind of like emotionally unhealthy relationship with food and diet and exercise that's my resolution and to keep that going oh yeah well how did you find the willpower to do that where did you gain the strength first of all yeah yeah yeah we're making america healthy again one injection to the hip at a time
Now, this resolution came after I'd already started taking experimental pancreas medicine.
Now, this resolution came after I'd already started taking experimental pancreas medicine.
No, but I will say I did also fail because I'm still, I'm better, I'm definitely better But I still do have an unhealthy relationship to food. It's so hard. But it's interesting. All of our resolutions, attention span and diet, it's all about trying to find some inner reservoir of discipline to defeat a cultural force. And it's hard. It's hard. Because I'm now better about the diet stuff.
No, but I will say I did also fail because I'm still, I'm better, I'm definitely better But I still do have an unhealthy relationship to food. It's so hard. But it's interesting. All of our resolutions, attention span and diet, it's all about trying to find some inner reservoir of discipline to defeat a cultural force. And it's hard. It's hard. Because I'm now better about the diet stuff.
And I am a little bit crazy about exercise. So I don't know. I don't know. Better. Better than I was. That's for sure.
And I am a little bit crazy about exercise. So I don't know. I don't know. Better. Better than I was. That's for sure.
Right, that's the argument for Trump from Republicans in the House.
Right, that's the argument for Trump from Republicans in the House.
I think that's great. Okay. I think it's good to write things down. I think sometimes writing things down is to, you figure out what you really think when you actually try to write it down. That's right.
I think that's great. Okay. I think it's good to write things down. I think sometimes writing things down is to, you figure out what you really think when you actually try to write it down. That's right.
We'd love to, but we're just so impressed for our time.
We'd love to, but we're just so impressed for our time.
The overlap is one is a group of people helping to make the world clear. The other is a technology that will make it much harder. So in a way, they're in competition. So that's interesting.
The overlap is one is a group of people helping to make the world clear. The other is a technology that will make it much harder. So in a way, they're in competition. So that's interesting.
Tommy's going to meditate. It is good. Maybe while you're meditating, you'll see John on one of his walks.
Tommy's going to meditate. It is good. Maybe while you're meditating, you'll see John on one of his walks.
There's some dead ends along the way. The path is the mindfulness, guys.
There's some dead ends along the way. The path is the mindfulness, guys.
Downward Dan. Dan, I'm so excited for you. When you're next in LA, you and I We're going to Pilates. Oh, I'd love to watch it.
Downward Dan. Dan, I'm so excited for you. When you're next in LA, you and I We're going to Pilates. Oh, I'd love to watch it.
Downward Dan. Downward Dan's pretty good. Love it. So I feel like we are coming to the end of the year where we made a lot of shows and we did a ton of content and there was a lot happening. And I want to try next year to do a little bit less, a little bit better and like really be deliberate about because I do think that like like Joe Biden, you're quite quitting, too.
Downward Dan. Downward Dan's pretty good. Love it. So I feel like we are coming to the end of the year where we made a lot of shows and we did a ton of content and there was a lot happening. And I want to try next year to do a little bit less, a little bit better and like really be deliberate about because I do think that like like Joe Biden, you're quite quitting, too.
A little bit more than him. No, but I do think that we're heading into another Trump era. It's going to be exhausting. And we keep saying, we got to make sure that we're disciplined about what we care about, discipline what we pay attention to. And I just want to apply that to what we cover, how we cover it. I want to make sure that... So we took down the Tuesday, love or leave it.
A little bit more than him. No, but I do think that we're heading into another Trump era. It's going to be exhausting. And we keep saying, we got to make sure that we're disciplined about what we care about, discipline what we pay attention to. And I just want to apply that to what we cover, how we cover it. I want to make sure that... So we took down the Tuesday, love or leave it.
And that's in part because I want to try to make the Thursday show even better. And I want the time and space to think about that and to think about other things to do outside of these two shows. And I want to have the mental space And it's not about time or even like work. It's just like the creative space to think about how to talk about politics.
And that's in part because I want to try to make the Thursday show even better. And I want the time and space to think about that and to think about other things to do outside of these two shows. And I want to have the mental space And it's not about time or even like work. It's just like the creative space to think about how to talk about politics.
Because so much of what we've just been saying for the last couple of weeks is there's something about how Democrats sound and we need to figure out how we're communicating. And like, you're not gonna figure that out in the churn.
Because so much of what we've just been saying for the last couple of weeks is there's something about how Democrats sound and we need to figure out how we're communicating. And like, you're not gonna figure that out in the churn.
John, there's nothing defamatory in any of the things that he describes.
John, there's nothing defamatory in any of the things that he describes.
I was surprised by how mad and disappointed I was when I saw it. I couldn't believe it. I thought I must be missing something to see them. So this is Disney we're talking about. Now, you might remember Disney famously tried to avoid facing consequences when someone died of an allergy at Disney World by claiming that in the Disney Plus terms of service, they'd been indemnified.
I was surprised by how mad and disappointed I was when I saw it. I couldn't believe it. I thought I must be missing something to see them. So this is Disney we're talking about. Now, you might remember Disney famously tried to avoid facing consequences when someone died of an allergy at Disney World by claiming that in the Disney Plus terms of service, they'd been indemnified.
I do not remember that. Disney has lawyers. They are famous. They are famously brutal lawyers. And so to see them capitulate in this way, and by the way, if I got any of that wrong, Disney, I'm sorry. Do not revoke his fast pass. Yeah, and don't come after me. Don't come after me.
I do not remember that. Disney has lawyers. They are famous. They are famously brutal lawyers. And so to see them capitulate in this way, and by the way, if I got any of that wrong, Disney, I'm sorry. Do not revoke his fast pass. Yeah, and don't come after me. Don't come after me.
But Disney knows how to fight a frivolous or false lawsuit if it wants to, and it is choosing not to in this case, and that is very disappointing.
But Disney knows how to fight a frivolous or false lawsuit if it wants to, and it is choosing not to in this case, and that is very disappointing.
Well, that is that is like even that I think is being so like generous towards Trump interpretation of what Stephanopoulos said, because, yes, it is true technically that it was for sexual abuse and not rape. Even the judge in the case made a point of saying this is a narrow legal definition. And by the common use of the word rape. it could apply in this case.
Well, that is that is like even that I think is being so like generous towards Trump interpretation of what Stephanopoulos said, because, yes, it is true technically that it was for sexual abuse and not rape. Even the judge in the case made a point of saying this is a narrow legal definition. And by the common use of the word rape. it could apply in this case.
And so there's an argument to be made that this isn't what what Stephanopoulos said wasn't even incorrect. His interpretation of the conclusion of the court is that it was liable for this, even if the technical legal wording might be different. So like it is all eminently defensible.
And so there's an argument to be made that this isn't what what Stephanopoulos said wasn't even incorrect. His interpretation of the conclusion of the court is that it was liable for this, even if the technical legal wording might be different. So like it is all eminently defensible.
That's the thing is, it's like, A, it can be interpreted as being accurate. B, he wasn't intending and purposely misleading anybody. Relying on the judge's words and the Washington Post. And see, it's not even clear if there were any damages to Donald Trump, right? Like all of this, the lawyers at Disney are well aware of.
That's the thing is, it's like, A, it can be interpreted as being accurate. B, he wasn't intending and purposely misleading anybody. Relying on the judge's words and the Washington Post. And see, it's not even clear if there were any damages to Donald Trump, right? Like all of this, the lawyers at Disney are well aware of.
But it's also like and all of that, like it's also there. It's a charitable donation. They're going to write some of it off. It would have cost them millions of dollars to defend the suit. Right. Like the delta between the big 16, really, because you pay a million dollars for the legal fees. Right.
But it's also like and all of that, like it's also there. It's a charitable donation. They're going to write some of it off. It would have cost them millions of dollars to defend the suit. Right. Like the delta between the big 16, really, because you pay a million dollars for the legal fees. Right.
The delta between the $16 million they're going to spend versus the millions they'd spend if it went to court, plus the cost to their reputation of fighting this in public, the damage, right? Like, I'm sure they're thinking about all of that. But there was a time when news organizations understood that they had an obligation to the public and, by the way, to their own journalists –
The delta between the $16 million they're going to spend versus the millions they'd spend if it went to court, plus the cost to their reputation of fighting this in public, the damage, right? Like, I'm sure they're thinking about all of that. But there was a time when news organizations understood that they had an obligation to the public and, by the way, to their own journalists –
that they know that even if they make a good faith mistake, which can happen, that they will have lawyers behind them defending them because people make mistakes. People say the wrong thing. People are allowed to get things wrong without the threat of a lawsuit. We have really good. That's a great thing about the First Amendment and the way we do defamation in this country.
that they know that even if they make a good faith mistake, which can happen, that they will have lawyers behind them defending them because people make mistakes. People say the wrong thing. People are allowed to get things wrong without the threat of a lawsuit. We have really good. That's a great thing about the First Amendment and the way we do defamation in this country.
Assuming everybody. And, like, look, do all of these come to, did they actually pursue any of them? Does Trump's lawyers talk him out of some of these and not others, whatever? But, like, the effect of that, like, The chilling effect of this is real. Like they're raising the cost of investigating these people. They're raising the cost of doing journalism.
Assuming everybody. And, like, look, do all of these come to, did they actually pursue any of them? Does Trump's lawyers talk him out of some of these and not others, whatever? But, like, the effect of that, like, The chilling effect of this is real. Like they're raising the cost of investigating these people. They're raising the cost of doing journalism.
And there are going to be places that just decide it's not worth it. There are going to be people that decide it's not worth it. Somebody like Olivia Troy. There's a lot of people that could speak out about what they saw inside the Trump administration that have it. They're making it more costly. They're making it more dangerous.
And there are going to be places that just decide it's not worth it. There are going to be people that decide it's not worth it. Somebody like Olivia Troy. There's a lot of people that could speak out about what they saw inside the Trump administration that have it. They're making it more costly. They're making it more dangerous.
And I mean, look, take just a pure fact. Donald Trump killed JonBenet Ramsey. That is not something you're going to be free to say in the public sphere anymore because you say it and all of a sudden people are going to.
And I mean, look, take just a pure fact. Donald Trump killed JonBenet Ramsey. That is not something you're going to be free to say in the public sphere anymore because you say it and all of a sudden people are going to.
Right. Like people are going to like.
Right. Like people are going to like.
Who's the guy with the keys? The jangling keys?
Who's the guy with the keys? The jangling keys?
Unlock the door to that plane.
Unlock the door to that plane.
Oh, that's a good idea. For sure. I have some members of my tribe, the Gata tribe, I'd like to sue.
Oh, that's a good idea. For sure. I have some members of my tribe, the Gata tribe, I'd like to sue.
It's funny to be like Liz Cheney is like, no, no, no. Yeah. Protect the land. Got to keep those trees safe.
It's funny to be like Liz Cheney is like, no, no, no. Yeah. Protect the land. Got to keep those trees safe.
Yeah. I watched the SoftBank CEO speak and it is this sort of funhouse mirror version of a presidential announcement because, yes, as you noted, he's not president. But in the past, when when there's been a major announcement and it did involve like a private sector figure speaking, they would speak about how great America is.
Yeah. I watched the SoftBank CEO speak and it is this sort of funhouse mirror version of a presidential announcement because, yes, as you noted, he's not president. But in the past, when when there's been a major announcement and it did involve like a private sector figure speaking, they would speak about how great America is.
and how important it is to be investing in the future of this great country. But instead, this guy gets up there and be like, God, this guy, Donald Trump, what a deal maker he is. It's all about Trump. It's all about him.
and how important it is to be investing in the future of this great country. But instead, this guy gets up there and be like, God, this guy, Donald Trump, what a deal maker he is. It's all about Trump. It's all about him.
Yeah, well, it's another exact, just more blending. Yeah, it's more blending of like the private and the public and making it less about the country and more about Donald Trump personally. That said, like, you know, Joe Biden believes in tradition and institutions and we should only have one president at a time. And I think it's a surprising choice to allow it to be Donald Trump.
Yeah, well, it's another exact, just more blending. Yeah, it's more blending of like the private and the public and making it less about the country and more about Donald Trump personally. That said, like, you know, Joe Biden believes in tradition and institutions and we should only have one president at a time. And I think it's a surprising choice to allow it to be Donald Trump.
But if that's what his plan is, I think it's about his long term respect for our kind of our basic mores.
But if that's what his plan is, I think it's about his long term respect for our kind of our basic mores.
He got a little too loose, I think. He's only got a couple more weeks to drink. Yeah, that's right. That's right.
He got a little too loose, I think. He's only got a couple more weeks to drink. Yeah, that's right. That's right.
You have people like Elon Musk, these are unelected, just billionaire donors having meetings with foreign heads of state on Trump's behalf. I'll meet with Iran.
You have people like Elon Musk, these are unelected, just billionaire donors having meetings with foreign heads of state on Trump's behalf. I'll meet with Iran.
Yeah, I think that's what we're getting. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I think that's what we're getting. Oh, yeah.
Right. I'm trying to, like, separate my, like, frustration with basically Joe Biden in his final year and culminating that debate and hanging on that, like. How much we paid for having somebody who just wasn't articulate and comprehensible messenger, not just on behalf of his own presidency, but on behalf of like progressivism democracy. Right. And like, I am very angry about that.
Right. I'm trying to, like, separate my, like, frustration with basically Joe Biden in his final year and culminating that debate and hanging on that, like. How much we paid for having somebody who just wasn't articulate and comprehensible messenger, not just on behalf of his own presidency, but on behalf of like progressivism democracy. Right. And like, I am very angry about that.
And I'm a little bit mad at myself for not being more honest about how I felt or not seeing it as plainly because I think we're obviously paying dearly for it. I guess what I'm more concerned about is less like, am I seeing Joe Biden enough? Maybe he's right that people don't want to hear from him.
And I'm a little bit mad at myself for not being more honest about how I felt or not seeing it as plainly because I think we're obviously paying dearly for it. I guess what I'm more concerned about is less like, am I seeing Joe Biden enough? Maybe he's right that people don't want to hear from him.
It's more like, do I feel confident right now that Joe Biden behind the scenes is thinking of every single way he can try to future-proof the White House, that he's thinking through all the different levers of powers, the kind of creative ways in which he can do everything to protect everyone from undocumented DACA recipients to trans people to the benefits of the inflation reduction.
It's more like, do I feel confident right now that Joe Biden behind the scenes is thinking of every single way he can try to future-proof the White House, that he's thinking through all the different levers of powers, the kind of creative ways in which he can do everything to protect everyone from undocumented DACA recipients to trans people to the benefits of the inflation reduction.
I think there are very smart people thinking about that. And I hope they succeed. And it sounds like from that memo the White House put out that they are thinking about the best ways to do that. But do I think Joe Biden himself is like at command being thinking about this? Like right now, I don't. I just honestly don't. Maybe he is. You can't tell.
I think there are very smart people thinking about that. And I hope they succeed. And it sounds like from that memo the White House put out that they are thinking about the best ways to do that. But do I think Joe Biden himself is like at command being thinking about this? Like right now, I don't. I just honestly don't. Maybe he is. You can't tell.
There's a debate about what the president can do on behalf of, say, DACA recipients. And there are some legal scholars that assert the president can use the pardon power, even though immigration violations are civil, to pardon DACA recipients or undocumented immigrants more broadly. There are some people that say that that would create problems.
There's a debate about what the president can do on behalf of, say, DACA recipients. And there are some legal scholars that assert the president can use the pardon power, even though immigration violations are civil, to pardon DACA recipients or undocumented immigrants more broadly. There are some people that say that that would create problems.
There's a debate about whether, because it's never been used in that way, but whatever. There's lots of ways in which presidential... Someone you then you use it. You assert it right. Like, is there a debate right now about whether President Biden can can pardon DACA recipients? Is he asking about that? And others are saying no. Are people coming to him with that? And he's not sure. Right.
There's a debate about whether, because it's never been used in that way, but whatever. There's lots of ways in which presidential... Someone you then you use it. You assert it right. Like, is there a debate right now about whether President Biden can can pardon DACA recipients? Is he asking about that? And others are saying no. Are people coming to him with that? And he's not sure. Right.
Like, is that debate unfolding? I have no idea.
Like, is that debate unfolding? I have no idea.
Right. Right. But this is I think like right now, like I don't know what we're meant to think is happening. Right. And we get a memo that basically lays out the fact that that Joe Biden is going to try to use his time most effectively over the next couple of weeks. But the memo exists in part because Joe Biden either is unwilling or unable to go to the microphone and explain himself.
Right. Right. But this is I think like right now, like I don't know what we're meant to think is happening. Right. And we get a memo that basically lays out the fact that that Joe Biden is going to try to use his time most effectively over the next couple of weeks. But the memo exists in part because Joe Biden either is unwilling or unable to go to the microphone and explain himself.
It's a cartoon evil scheme.
It's a cartoon evil scheme.
But like, yeah, it was it was it was interesting watching a bunch of people on the left being really critical of this because this was a monstrous.
But like, yeah, it was it was it was interesting watching a bunch of people on the left being really critical of this because this was a monstrous.
crime that i think basically kind of it was a kind of like a for-profit version of the cruelty and unfairness that the judicial system often meets out right so this is somebody receiving clemency for participating in the larger evil these people are are spending their lives fighting exactly against so that that's what made it i think like a little bit like confusing but it also does expose that like even people that advocate for
crime that i think basically kind of it was a kind of like a for-profit version of the cruelty and unfairness that the judicial system often meets out right so this is somebody receiving clemency for participating in the larger evil these people are are spending their lives fighting exactly against so that that's what made it i think like a little bit like confusing but it also does expose that like even people that advocate for
whatever prison abolition there's a part of us that demands justice and that wants someone like this thrown away for fucking ever but I think part of the deeper thing is like also prison abolition is crazy I'm just gonna say that it's crazy but you murder someone you're gonna keep them away from people for sure and then no no and I just wanna I just wanna second that we're in similar t-shirts similar view on murder but I'll take the slings and arrows it's fine but the pardon power is strange
whatever prison abolition there's a part of us that demands justice and that wants someone like this thrown away for fucking ever but I think part of the deeper thing is like also prison abolition is crazy I'm just gonna say that it's crazy but you murder someone you're gonna keep them away from people for sure and then no no and I just wanna I just wanna second that we're in similar t-shirts similar view on murder but I'll take the slings and arrows it's fine but the pardon power is strange
and like silly and yes but so I think what's so galling about these examples is just like who gets who gets mercy in our system exactly there are so many people that deserve mercy yes and they deserve it before these corrupt public officials and the other part too is it's like Donald Trump He cut taxes for the rich. He vilified immigrants. He shifted the court to the right.
and like silly and yes but so I think what's so galling about these examples is just like who gets who gets mercy in our system exactly there are so many people that deserve mercy yes and they deserve it before these corrupt public officials and the other part too is it's like Donald Trump He cut taxes for the rich. He vilified immigrants. He shifted the court to the right.
And he basically decriminalized corruption. And we are going to pay for that. Like corruption is a cancer. And these are corrupt officials. And it would be nice if one of the ways in which Joe Biden kind of defended the values he cares about is to is to strongly defend laws that protect against corruption, which is what these people were punished for.
And he basically decriminalized corruption. And we are going to pay for that. Like corruption is a cancer. And these are corrupt officials. And it would be nice if one of the ways in which Joe Biden kind of defended the values he cares about is to is to strongly defend laws that protect against corruption, which is what these people were punished for.
Well, no, I'm just curious what it is. Can't I just be curious about what it is? I've said my part. Tommy?
Well, no, I'm just curious what it is. Can't I just be curious about what it is? I've said my part. Tommy?
Yeah, I do think, look, I think she has paid politically for having come up as a prosecutor, then run for president at a time when that was seen as a liability and shifting to the left on a bunch of issues and then walking away from those positions.
Yeah, I do think, look, I think she has paid politically for having come up as a prosecutor, then run for president at a time when that was seen as a liability and shifting to the left on a bunch of issues and then walking away from those positions.
And if you were to ask me right now, what are Kamala's views, actual personal views on a host of those issues, I sincerely would say, like, I think she's
And if you were to ask me right now, what are Kamala's views, actual personal views on a host of those issues, I sincerely would say, like, I think she's
consensus builder I think she but like I don't actually know and if she is going to want to seek whether it's California governorship or national office I think like it's about taking the time to figure out an ideological perspective that like informs everything that she does going forward because I do think some of the ways in which she's had these like whether it was tough interviews in the 2024 race or the quotes that were taken out of what she said in the 2020 race like the lack of that
consensus builder I think she but like I don't actually know and if she is going to want to seek whether it's California governorship or national office I think like it's about taking the time to figure out an ideological perspective that like informs everything that she does going forward because I do think some of the ways in which she's had these like whether it was tough interviews in the 2024 race or the quotes that were taken out of what she said in the 2020 race like the lack of that
I think worldview and ideology is going to make it very, very hard for her to get past the previous two runs. That's my concern.
I think worldview and ideology is going to make it very, very hard for her to get past the previous two runs. That's my concern.
It's not at all. Actually, it's more Shakespearean. If you want to say it's Shakespearean, you have to find the ways in which her own deeper flaws were ultimately her undoing, which would be, I think, more dramatic.
It's not at all. Actually, it's more Shakespearean. If you want to say it's Shakespearean, you have to find the ways in which her own deeper flaws were ultimately her undoing, which would be, I think, more dramatic.
Right. Yeah. Anyway. I guess it's a Romeo and Juliet. They're both fucking dead. Oh, no. Maybe that's it. Just star-crossed lovers, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
Right. Yeah. Anyway. I guess it's a Romeo and Juliet. They're both fucking dead. Oh, no. Maybe that's it. Just star-crossed lovers, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
Yeah, finally showing some discipline. Yeah, man, it is tough having a country when you're like, oh, what are the drones? Well, some of them are manned and maybe some of them are hobbyists. And actually, we don't know what some of them. And then the next president of the United States grabs the microphone and says, it might be the Jews.
Yeah, finally showing some discipline. Yeah, man, it is tough having a country when you're like, oh, what are the drones? Well, some of them are manned and maybe some of them are hobbyists. And actually, we don't know what some of them. And then the next president of the United States grabs the microphone and says, it might be the Jews.
What is this country? What's going on here? You know what? If the government won't, if the federal government won't shoot some of these things down, we're going to have no choice but to give your meanest friend from high school the authority. That's what's going to happen. That's where this ends up.
What is this country? What's going on here? You know what? If the government won't, if the federal government won't shoot some of these things down, we're going to have no choice but to give your meanest friend from high school the authority. That's what's going to happen. That's where this ends up.
Look, by the way, and that's the second worst option, because what's really going to happen is randos are going to start going outside and shooting at drones. And of course they are. And you know what? Some of these drones are planes and those planes have people in them. So we got to just shoot one down. Can we just shoot one down? Let's make sure it's a drone.
Look, by the way, and that's the second worst option, because what's really going to happen is randos are going to start going outside and shooting at drones. And of course they are. And you know what? Some of these drones are planes and those planes have people in them. So we got to just shoot one down. Can we just shoot one down? Let's make sure it's a drone.
That's what the Republican congressman said.
That's what the Republican congressman said.
It's like a deep state head. Let's see what the deep state has to say.
It's like a deep state head. Let's see what the deep state has to say.
Here's the thing. Here's the good news. Here's the good news. All right. I obviously I think the worst case scenario would be shooting down a passenger aircraft.
Here's the thing. Here's the good news. Here's the good news. All right. I obviously I think the worst case scenario would be shooting down a passenger aircraft.
After that, after that, after that, if you shoot down a hobbyist drone, I don't care. Bring them down. Those people should be sadder, frankly. Commercial drones, government drones. Shoot one down. Take a look. And when you look in the air, you'll be able to tell which is which, right? I think you should be really sure. Let's be really sure. Someone tell Elon Musk about this guy.
After that, after that, after that, if you shoot down a hobbyist drone, I don't care. Bring them down. Those people should be sadder, frankly. Commercial drones, government drones. Shoot one down. Take a look. And when you look in the air, you'll be able to tell which is which, right? I think you should be really sure. Let's be really sure. Someone tell Elon Musk about this guy.
We've got to get him in government. No, if I'm going to press the Elon button, it's going to be around daylight saving time. We're getting there.
We've got to get him in government. No, if I'm going to press the Elon button, it's going to be around daylight saving time. We're getting there.
I believe the Larry Hogan ones turned out to be celestial bodies, which is tough. It's tough. People are losing their minds. Yeah. Look, I love a good mania. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. People are losing it out there. I also do like Andy Kim being like, I think it's economic anxiety. It's like, okay. I'm with you. I'm with you to a point.
I believe the Larry Hogan ones turned out to be celestial bodies, which is tough. It's tough. People are losing their minds. Yeah. Look, I love a good mania. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. People are losing it out there. I also do like Andy Kim being like, I think it's economic anxiety. It's like, okay. I'm with you. I'm with you to a point.
That's wrong. Yes, I know. It should be Daylight Savings Time, but it is technically Daylight Saving Time.
That's wrong. Yes, I know. It should be Daylight Savings Time, but it is technically Daylight Saving Time.
Yeah. So he does probably almost certainly means making daylight saving time permanent. He actually tweeted that in, I think, 2019. So currently there is a bill in Congress called the Sunshine Protection Act. It is sponsored by Rubio and Padilla in California. Also, Ed Markey in Massachusetts, Patty Murray.
Yeah. So he does probably almost certainly means making daylight saving time permanent. He actually tweeted that in, I think, 2019. So currently there is a bill in Congress called the Sunshine Protection Act. It is sponsored by Rubio and Padilla in California. Also, Ed Markey in Massachusetts, Patty Murray.
And a bunch of other senators, 20 states have already passed by ballot measure or legislation state rules that would switch to permanent daylight saving time if Congress allows it. Now, I have actually like I used to think, yes, of course, we should switch to permanent daylight saving time. That used to be my position. I really dug into it for a while.
And a bunch of other senators, 20 states have already passed by ballot measure or legislation state rules that would switch to permanent daylight saving time if Congress allows it. Now, I have actually like I used to think, yes, of course, we should switch to permanent daylight saving time. That used to be my position. I really dug into it for a while.
I did a lot of interviews, did a lot of reading about it. And I have a more nuanced view on it, which is basically, it's not a surprise that it's being led by a Massachusetts senator, a Florida senator, and California senators. Florida and California were further south. All that means is our winters aren't as dark and our summers aren't as bright, right?
I did a lot of interviews, did a lot of reading about it. And I have a more nuanced view on it, which is basically, it's not a surprise that it's being led by a Massachusetts senator, a Florida senator, and California senators. Florida and California were further south. All that means is our winters aren't as dark and our summers aren't as bright, right?
The closer you get to the equator, the less the time shifts, not with time zones, but just with longer days and shorter days. In Massachusetts- in the dead of winter, right now in Maine or Massachusetts, the sun is setting around four o'clock. It gets late. It gets even into the threes, right? But in a state like Michigan, which is in the same sign zone, it's fully an hour later, right?
The closer you get to the equator, the less the time shifts, not with time zones, but just with longer days and shorter days. In Massachusetts- in the dead of winter, right now in Maine or Massachusetts, the sun is setting around four o'clock. It gets late. It gets even into the threes, right? But in a state like Michigan, which is in the same sign zone, it's fully an hour later, right?
Because they're further west in the time zone. So it makes sense that a bunch of East, like Maine, Massachusetts, Florida, California, all these states would want to do it. The problem is- I was in Vancouver the other weekend and it was like four o'clock dark. Yes. So- Even in California, Los Angeles, the sunset in Los Angeles will be almost an hour later than it will be in Seattle or Portland.
Because they're further west in the time zone. So it makes sense that a bunch of East, like Maine, Massachusetts, Florida, California, all these states would want to do it. The problem is- I was in Vancouver the other weekend and it was like four o'clock dark. Yes. So- Even in California, Los Angeles, the sunset in Los Angeles will be almost an hour later than it will be in Seattle or Portland.
So some of this is where you're located. What needs to happen is Congress needs to amend the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to allow for a third option. And then every state can choose between permanent daylight saving time, permanent standard time, or continuing to make the switch. This is the compromise. This is the solution.
So some of this is where you're located. What needs to happen is Congress needs to amend the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to allow for a third option. And then every state can choose between permanent daylight saving time, permanent standard time, or continuing to make the switch. This is the compromise. This is the solution.
Because we did do permanent daylight saving time in the 70s during the oil crisis. And in a lot of places, people fucking hated it because there are places where if you go to permanent daylight saving time... sunrise won't be until either close to nine or even after 9 a.m. Oh, wow. Right. People don't like, people, if you poll them, say they don't like daylight saving time.
Because we did do permanent daylight saving time in the 70s during the oil crisis. And in a lot of places, people fucking hated it because there are places where if you go to permanent daylight saving time... sunrise won't be until either close to nine or even after 9 a.m. Oh, wow. Right. People don't like, people, if you poll them, say they don't like daylight saving time.
Really what they mean is they don't like springing forward. They hate losing the hour. They hate the time switch. And the time switch does suck. But really what people like are longer days in the summer and shorter days in the winter. And unfortunately, you can't legislate For that. But I like if I had to choose between the switch and permanent daylight saving time, I would choose that.
Really what they mean is they don't like springing forward. They hate losing the hour. They hate the time switch. And the time switch does suck. But really what people like are longer days in the summer and shorter days in the winter. And unfortunately, you can't legislate For that. But I like if I had to choose between the switch and permanent daylight saving time, I would choose that.
But that's because we live in California, which is a place that would benefit from being in permanent daylight saving time. But there are states like Michigan. Michigan, for example, should actually switch to permanent standard time because in Michigan in the summer, the sunset is so late. Is it possible? Can a possible solution be that some like. Yes. Yes. Yes.
But that's because we live in California, which is a place that would benefit from being in permanent daylight saving time. But there are states like Michigan. Michigan, for example, should actually switch to permanent standard time because in Michigan in the summer, the sunset is so late. Is it possible? Can a possible solution be that some like. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Because in practice, I think a few states would continue to switch. If you pass the Rubio-Markey-Murray bill, then everybody's going to be on permanent daylight saving time. But if you pass a law that just allowed states to choose, just add the third option, letting them choose permanent daylight saving time, about 20 states, their laws would go into effect.
Because in practice, I think a few states would continue to switch. If you pass the Rubio-Markey-Murray bill, then everybody's going to be on permanent daylight saving time. But if you pass a law that just allowed states to choose, just add the third option, letting them choose permanent daylight saving time, about 20 states, their laws would go into effect.
And then some states would either choose to keep switching or stay on permanent standard time. Michigan So if you look at the time zone map, Michigan is so far to the west. I know, now I know, I feel it. This was the moment, I went too long. This was the moment. Will you let me know when this wraps?
And then some states would either choose to keep switching or stay on permanent standard time. Michigan So if you look at the time zone map, Michigan is so far to the west. I know, now I know, I feel it. This was the moment, I went too long. This was the moment. Will you let me know when this wraps?
Yeah, Michigan is so far west of Massachusetts, it doesn't really make sense that they're in the same time zone. Michigan should be in permanent standard time, Wisconsin can be on permanent daylight saving time. In practice, what that means is they're both in the central time zone. Michigan would just shift one time zone over.
Yeah, Michigan is so far west of Massachusetts, it doesn't really make sense that they're in the same time zone. Michigan should be in permanent standard time, Wisconsin can be on permanent daylight saving time. In practice, what that means is they're both in the central time zone. Michigan would just shift one time zone over.
Well, you know there's going to be companies that are going to start allowing you in the night to rent light via mirrors. What? There are companies that have like, they want to put satellites up that have big reflectors, and then you could go on your phone, literally on your phone, and say, I would like it to be light out on my yard at this time.
Well, you know there's going to be companies that are going to start allowing you in the night to rent light via mirrors. What? There are companies that have like, they want to put satellites up that have big reflectors, and then you could go on your phone, literally on your phone, and say, I would like it to be light out on my yard at this time.
And they'll turn the mirrors, and you'll have daylight on your yard. What kind of dystopia is that? Dystopia? Okay. Okay. What about AI, permanent sunlight, corrupt fucking dumbasses present? What about this screams dystopia to you?
And they'll turn the mirrors, and you'll have daylight on your yard. What kind of dystopia is that? Dystopia? Okay. Okay. What about AI, permanent sunlight, corrupt fucking dumbasses present? What about this screams dystopia to you?
Oh, do you mean like a type two civilization? Yeah.
Oh, do you mean like a type two civilization? Yeah.
Is there a call to action? There is a call to action. The call to action would be to say we do not need to argue about whether the whole country should be on permanent standard time. Oh, by the way, the scientists and the nerds, they're all for permanent standard time. I've interviewed them. They're fucking wrong.
Is there a call to action? There is a call to action. The call to action would be to say we do not need to argue about whether the whole country should be on permanent standard time. Oh, by the way, the scientists and the nerds, they're all for permanent standard time. I've interviewed them. They're fucking wrong.
They're just wrong about it because they are confusing the benefits of not switching to the benefits of standard time. We should switch to permanent daylight saving time in a lot of places. And there's a reason 20 states haven't. have passed it. But no, this is the compromise. The whole country doesn't have to switch and the whole country doesn't have to have one policy.
They're just wrong about it because they are confusing the benefits of not switching to the benefits of standard time. We should switch to permanent daylight saving time in a lot of places. And there's a reason 20 states haven't. have passed it. But no, this is the compromise. The whole country doesn't have to switch and the whole country doesn't have to have one policy.
It won't be complicated because you go through a period of transition over a year or two, which people can choose which time zone they want. And then basically you just end up with a new time zone map and we never have to deal with this again. Most places would choose either permanent standard time or permanent daylight saving time.
It won't be complicated because you go through a period of transition over a year or two, which people can choose which time zone they want. And then basically you just end up with a new time zone map and we never have to deal with this again. Most places would choose either permanent standard time or permanent daylight saving time.
A few might continue to switch, but we know that that's fine because Arizona doesn't switch, right? And society moves on. Society's fine and so does Arizona.
A few might continue to switch, but we know that that's fine because Arizona doesn't switch, right? And society moves on. Society's fine and so does Arizona.
Our show, Speech Center, by the way. Yeah. It's the hit of the channel. It's actually kind of hurting my feelings.
Our show, Speech Center, by the way. Yeah. It's the hit of the channel. It's actually kind of hurting my feelings.
Our show, Speech Center, by the way. Yeah. It's the hit of the channel. It's actually kind of hurting my feelings.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
They want you. They want... They want the gay Republican versus gay Democrat anti-Trump. I don't know what you'd call it. The frisson. You know, they want that.
They want you. They want... They want the gay Republican versus gay Democrat anti-Trump. I don't know what you'd call it. The frisson. You know, they want that.
They want you. They want... They want the gay Republican versus gay Democrat anti-Trump. I don't know what you'd call it. The frisson. You know, they want that.
They didn't discover it. You put it in the fucking thumbnail. So they were like Columbus discovering America. You know, it was set up for them. It was ready. So, you know, there's only a couple of times I played on Fox.
They didn't discover it. You put it in the fucking thumbnail. So they were like Columbus discovering America. You know, it was set up for them. It was ready. So, you know, there's only a couple of times I played on Fox.
They didn't discover it. You put it in the fucking thumbnail. So they were like Columbus discovering America. You know, it was set up for them. It was ready. So, you know, there's only a couple of times I played on Fox.
So first of all, that was sort of my one and done. I regret that it happened with you, but it sort of hit me in that moment and haven't felt that calm since. It is strange, right? Because we had that conversation before we saw... what is now unfolding, which is basically a worst case scenario. Like I was talking about this with John and Tommy yesterday because
So first of all, that was sort of my one and done. I regret that it happened with you, but it sort of hit me in that moment and haven't felt that calm since. It is strange, right? Because we had that conversation before we saw... what is now unfolding, which is basically a worst case scenario. Like I was talking about this with John and Tommy yesterday because
So first of all, that was sort of my one and done. I regret that it happened with you, but it sort of hit me in that moment and haven't felt that calm since. It is strange, right? Because we had that conversation before we saw... what is now unfolding, which is basically a worst case scenario. Like I was talking about this with John and Tommy yesterday because
Obviously, there are many ways in which what we could be seeing unfolding. There are many ways it could be worse. There are many ways it could be more destructive. They could be more vile, more feckless about basic rights and due process. But it's hard to imagine a version of the Trump administration unfolding in which they are doing more and bad things now.
Obviously, there are many ways in which what we could be seeing unfolding. There are many ways it could be worse. There are many ways it could be more destructive. They could be more vile, more feckless about basic rights and due process. But it's hard to imagine a version of the Trump administration unfolding in which they are doing more and bad things now.
Obviously, there are many ways in which what we could be seeing unfolding. There are many ways it could be worse. There are many ways it could be more destructive. They could be more vile, more feckless about basic rights and due process. But it's hard to imagine a version of the Trump administration unfolding in which they are doing more and bad things now.
Without getting the blowback that might hurt them, right? They are on this sort of razor's edge. They're pushing the bounds, obviously, of due process and deporting people without evidence, including people that have nothing to do with the roundups they're claiming that they do. They are playing footsie with...
Without getting the blowback that might hurt them, right? They are on this sort of razor's edge. They're pushing the bounds, obviously, of due process and deporting people without evidence, including people that have nothing to do with the roundups they're claiming that they do. They are playing footsie with...
Without getting the blowback that might hurt them, right? They are on this sort of razor's edge. They're pushing the bounds, obviously, of due process and deporting people without evidence, including people that have nothing to do with the roundups they're claiming that they do. They are playing footsie with...
the Constitution and just sort of claiming they're following orders, not following orders. They're ignoring Congress completely on spending. They're putting on tariffs. They're taking tariffs off. It's all very destructive, but it is like, in a way, I hate to say that it feels designed.
the Constitution and just sort of claiming they're following orders, not following orders. They're ignoring Congress completely on spending. They're putting on tariffs. They're taking tariffs off. It's all very destructive, but it is like, in a way, I hate to say that it feels designed.
the Constitution and just sort of claiming they're following orders, not following orders. They're ignoring Congress completely on spending. They're putting on tariffs. They're taking tariffs off. It's all very destructive, but it is like, in a way, I hate to say that it feels designed.
It's really much more of a kind of gut instinct on Trump and a bunch of lackeys at random kind of operating on what they think he wants. But the end result is They are marching us down this path towards authoritarianism in a way that is not eliciting as big a response as you would hope. That's how I would feel about it. I'm just angry all the time, I think, more than I am scared.
It's really much more of a kind of gut instinct on Trump and a bunch of lackeys at random kind of operating on what they think he wants. But the end result is They are marching us down this path towards authoritarianism in a way that is not eliciting as big a response as you would hope. That's how I would feel about it. I'm just angry all the time, I think, more than I am scared.
It's really much more of a kind of gut instinct on Trump and a bunch of lackeys at random kind of operating on what they think he wants. But the end result is They are marching us down this path towards authoritarianism in a way that is not eliciting as big a response as you would hope. That's how I would feel about it. I'm just angry all the time, I think, more than I am scared.
And maybe that's because I can't accept what's happening and can't really feel where it's going. And then yet the strangest part about all of it is then you go out to dinner with some friends, right? And then you have a great night and then you buy new placemats for the table and you... It's as bad as it could be. Plan a wedding.
And maybe that's because I can't accept what's happening and can't really feel where it's going. And then yet the strangest part about all of it is then you go out to dinner with some friends, right? And then you have a great night and then you buy new placemats for the table and you... It's as bad as it could be. Plan a wedding.
And maybe that's because I can't accept what's happening and can't really feel where it's going. And then yet the strangest part about all of it is then you go out to dinner with some friends, right? And then you have a great night and then you buy new placemats for the table and you... It's as bad as it could be. Plan a wedding.
Things are as bad as they could be without it feeling insane that normal life is still happening. And normal life is still happening. And I don't think it should stop and I don't think it's wrong. But it is. There is a dissonance there. There is something confusing there. Because... We have spent years saying, this is how bad it could get. And it is getting that bad.
Things are as bad as they could be without it feeling insane that normal life is still happening. And normal life is still happening. And I don't think it should stop and I don't think it's wrong. But it is. There is a dissonance there. There is something confusing there. Because... We have spent years saying, this is how bad it could get. And it is getting that bad.
Things are as bad as they could be without it feeling insane that normal life is still happening. And normal life is still happening. And I don't think it should stop and I don't think it's wrong. But it is. There is a dissonance there. There is something confusing there. Because... We have spent years saying, this is how bad it could get. And it is getting that bad.
And yet, life carries on around it.
And yet, life carries on around it.
And yet, life carries on around it.
Yeah, well, there's the parts that I actually do think feel like what you would have expected. Honestly, them texting about imminent bombings over Signal with Jeffrey Goldberg in the chat does feel very 2017 to me.
Yeah, well, there's the parts that I actually do think feel like what you would have expected. Honestly, them texting about imminent bombings over Signal with Jeffrey Goldberg in the chat does feel very 2017 to me.
Yeah, well, there's the parts that I actually do think feel like what you would have expected. Honestly, them texting about imminent bombings over Signal with Jeffrey Goldberg in the chat does feel very 2017 to me.
And then Donald Trump threatening tariffs, turning them on, turning them off, causing the markets to be roiled, but not so much as to create a true crisis. That does feel like what we could have expected. Doge going this quickly, I think, caught everybody by surprise, their willingness to just claim an authority they do not have. over the budget and just start eliminating agencies.
And then Donald Trump threatening tariffs, turning them on, turning them off, causing the markets to be roiled, but not so much as to create a true crisis. That does feel like what we could have expected. Doge going this quickly, I think, caught everybody by surprise, their willingness to just claim an authority they do not have. over the budget and just start eliminating agencies.
And then Donald Trump threatening tariffs, turning them on, turning them off, causing the markets to be roiled, but not so much as to create a true crisis. That does feel like what we could have expected. Doge going this quickly, I think, caught everybody by surprise, their willingness to just claim an authority they do not have. over the budget and just start eliminating agencies.
That to me is, was shocking. We obviously knew that was the plan. It wasn't really like fully expressed, but presumably Congress was going to be involved. The deportations, the deportations, you know, like the idea that we are sending people to a Salvadoran prison without due process, that seems like a joke, right?
That to me is, was shocking. We obviously knew that was the plan. It wasn't really like fully expressed, but presumably Congress was going to be involved. The deportations, the deportations, you know, like the idea that we are sending people to a Salvadoran prison without due process, that seems like a joke, right?
That to me is, was shocking. We obviously knew that was the plan. It wasn't really like fully expressed, but presumably Congress was going to be involved. The deportations, the deportations, you know, like the idea that we are sending people to a Salvadoran prison without due process, that seems like a joke, right?
Like that was the kind of thing that would seem like the kind of thing people would make as a kind of dark joke about Trump 2.0. a year ago, right? That was the kind of thing people would say, oh, Trump's threatening that, but he'll never do it. That's the kind of thing Trump just says. And then not only are they doing it, they're doing it without anyone ever coming before a judge.
Like that was the kind of thing that would seem like the kind of thing people would make as a kind of dark joke about Trump 2.0. a year ago, right? That was the kind of thing people would say, oh, Trump's threatening that, but he'll never do it. That's the kind of thing Trump just says. And then not only are they doing it, they're doing it without anyone ever coming before a judge.
Like that was the kind of thing that would seem like the kind of thing people would make as a kind of dark joke about Trump 2.0. a year ago, right? That was the kind of thing people would say, oh, Trump's threatening that, but he'll never do it. That's the kind of thing Trump just says. And then not only are they doing it, they're doing it without anyone ever coming before a judge.
And they're claiming these broad authorities over non-citizens without giving those non-citizens an opportunity to prove who they are or who they're not. And obviously that is a disgusting, vile, immoral behavior. dangerous act, even if it only ensnares non-citizens who have rights in this country. The Constitution, the 14th Amendment, due process, these things don't apply to people.
And they're claiming these broad authorities over non-citizens without giving those non-citizens an opportunity to prove who they are or who they're not. And obviously that is a disgusting, vile, immoral behavior. dangerous act, even if it only ensnares non-citizens who have rights in this country. The Constitution, the 14th Amendment, due process, these things don't apply to people.
And they're claiming these broad authorities over non-citizens without giving those non-citizens an opportunity to prove who they are or who they're not. And obviously that is a disgusting, vile, immoral behavior. dangerous act, even if it only ensnares non-citizens who have rights in this country. The Constitution, the 14th Amendment, due process, these things don't apply to people.
If you read the diets, it's for people. But that's both because we understand that human beings have basic rights, but also if non-citizens never get a chance to say to a judge, Hi, here's who I am. Here's why this is wrong. What about a citizen who has a tattoo? What about a citizen who came from Venezuela or whatever country they target next?
If you read the diets, it's for people. But that's both because we understand that human beings have basic rights, but also if non-citizens never get a chance to say to a judge, Hi, here's who I am. Here's why this is wrong. What about a citizen who has a tattoo? What about a citizen who came from Venezuela or whatever country they target next?
If you read the diets, it's for people. But that's both because we understand that human beings have basic rights, but also if non-citizens never get a chance to say to a judge, Hi, here's who I am. Here's why this is wrong. What about a citizen who has a tattoo? What about a citizen who came from Venezuela or whatever country they target next?
Of course. How could we be? How could we be? They won't tell us who these people are. Even the most recent reporting says around 261 people. Yeah. Around. Around? You don't know the number? You don't know the exact number of people you've sent to a fucking gulag in Central America that you have Kristi Noem posing in front of? I mean, those things are moving faster, right?
Of course. How could we be? How could we be? They won't tell us who these people are. Even the most recent reporting says around 261 people. Yeah. Around. Around? You don't know the number? You don't know the exact number of people you've sent to a fucking gulag in Central America that you have Kristi Noem posing in front of? I mean, those things are moving faster, right?
Of course. How could we be? How could we be? They won't tell us who these people are. Even the most recent reporting says around 261 people. Yeah. Around. Around? You don't know the number? You don't know the exact number of people you've sent to a fucking gulag in Central America that you have Kristi Noem posing in front of? I mean, those things are moving faster, right?
This is a line that I regret using it only because Elon Musk, I think, also thinks it's a great line to use. But the future right now is not evenly distributed. Parts of what we were seeing are what we would have expected. Parts of it are actually moving slower. And then parts of it are racing ahead. There hasn't been some great rise in deportations, right?
This is a line that I regret using it only because Elon Musk, I think, also thinks it's a great line to use. But the future right now is not evenly distributed. Parts of what we were seeing are what we would have expected. Parts of it are actually moving slower. And then parts of it are racing ahead. There hasn't been some great rise in deportations, right?
This is a line that I regret using it only because Elon Musk, I think, also thinks it's a great line to use. But the future right now is not evenly distributed. Parts of what we were seeing are what we would have expected. Parts of it are actually moving slower. And then parts of it are racing ahead. There hasn't been some great rise in deportations, right?
They are not implementing their broader policy very quickly that they claim they were going to implement, right? Which is removing undocumented people to remove whatever their economic claims about what that would do. They are targeting people and they're doing it in such a way that only makes sense if what they are trying to do is build a permission structure for a host of
They are not implementing their broader policy very quickly that they claim they were going to implement, right? Which is removing undocumented people to remove whatever their economic claims about what that would do. They are targeting people and they're doing it in such a way that only makes sense if what they are trying to do is build a permission structure for a host of
They are not implementing their broader policy very quickly that they claim they were going to implement, right? Which is removing undocumented people to remove whatever their economic claims about what that would do. They are targeting people and they're doing it in such a way that only makes sense if what they are trying to do is build a permission structure for a host of
My main fear right now is that in facing a million different versions, a million different threats from a million different directions, we will win some battles, lose some battles, but by the end of this four years, we won't really recognize the country.
My main fear right now is that in facing a million different versions, a million different threats from a million different directions, we will win some battles, lose some battles, but by the end of this four years, we won't really recognize the country.
My main fear right now is that in facing a million different versions, a million different threats from a million different directions, we will win some battles, lose some battles, but by the end of this four years, we won't really recognize the country.
Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years ago, it was early 2017, 2018, maybe 2019, I don't know. But we were at a live event and this woman asked a question and it stuck with me. And she said, are we really going to have to hang Donald Trump's portrait with all the other portraits of the president? And I understood what she was saying. She's like, can we just get past this and pretend it never happened?
Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years ago, it was early 2017, 2018, maybe 2019, I don't know. But we were at a live event and this woman asked a question and it stuck with me. And she said, are we really going to have to hang Donald Trump's portrait with all the other portraits of the president? And I understood what she was saying. She's like, can we just get past this and pretend it never happened?
Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years ago, it was early 2017, 2018, maybe 2019, I don't know. But we were at a live event and this woman asked a question and it stuck with me. And she said, are we really going to have to hang Donald Trump's portrait with all the other portraits of the president? And I understood what she was saying. She's like, can we just get past this and pretend it never happened?
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah. Right. Now we got to hang it twice. And I remember saying, no, actually, we're not going to get to do that. Like this is happening. It does reveal something important about the country. And we can't pretend that it was some anomaly. Like, yes, this is changing the country.
Yeah. Right. Now we got to hang it twice. And I remember saying, no, actually, we're not going to get to do that. Like this is happening. It does reveal something important about the country. And we can't pretend that it was some anomaly. Like, yes, this is changing the country.
Yeah. Right. Now we got to hang it twice. And I remember saying, no, actually, we're not going to get to do that. Like this is happening. It does reveal something important about the country. And we can't pretend that it was some anomaly. Like, yes, this is changing the country.
But I think what I'm realizing, too, is it's revealing something about the country and not in the way we like, oh, wow, I didn't know this many Americans would love what Donald Trump is doing. Of course, of course. But realizing that we have made a lot of assumptions about democracy, due process, the rule of law, that we've treated as if they were like self-reinforcing. Right.
But I think what I'm realizing, too, is it's revealing something about the country and not in the way we like, oh, wow, I didn't know this many Americans would love what Donald Trump is doing. Of course, of course. But realizing that we have made a lot of assumptions about democracy, due process, the rule of law, that we've treated as if they were like self-reinforcing. Right.
But I think what I'm realizing, too, is it's revealing something about the country and not in the way we like, oh, wow, I didn't know this many Americans would love what Donald Trump is doing. Of course, of course. But realizing that we have made a lot of assumptions about democracy, due process, the rule of law, that we've treated as if they were like self-reinforcing. Right.
That like kids get a good they get a dose of democracy of education when they're growing up and they learn about the Constitution and the founding fathers. And then we just assume people are kind of immunized against fascism because they love America and they love American principles. But then we watch this unfold and then you see Mike Johnson, someone who I'm sure thinks that he is a.
That like kids get a good they get a dose of democracy of education when they're growing up and they learn about the Constitution and the founding fathers. And then we just assume people are kind of immunized against fascism because they love America and they love American principles. But then we watch this unfold and then you see Mike Johnson, someone who I'm sure thinks that he is a.
That like kids get a good they get a dose of democracy of education when they're growing up and they learn about the Constitution and the founding fathers. And then we just assume people are kind of immunized against fascism because they love America and they love American principles. But then we watch this unfold and then you see Mike Johnson, someone who I'm sure thinks that he is a.
a patriotic American who loves our founding principles. And then he says, well, if these judges keep it up, we're going to have to think about defunding parts of the courts that don't do what Donald Trump says. Or, you know, the national security advisor goes on Fox news and says, actually, I think Jeffrey Goldberg snuck into our signal channel and we're going to investigate him for that.
a patriotic American who loves our founding principles. And then he says, well, if these judges keep it up, we're going to have to think about defunding parts of the courts that don't do what Donald Trump says. Or, you know, the national security advisor goes on Fox news and says, actually, I think Jeffrey Goldberg snuck into our signal channel and we're going to investigate him for that.
a patriotic American who loves our founding principles. And then he says, well, if these judges keep it up, we're going to have to think about defunding parts of the courts that don't do what Donald Trump says. Or, you know, the national security advisor goes on Fox news and says, actually, I think Jeffrey Goldberg snuck into our signal channel and we're going to investigate him for that.
And espionage. And so there's like two big pieces of it. First, there's Actually, let me say there's three. First, there is just the fact that these Republicans are willing to go along with this or are starting to fully embrace it. It's like they weren't in the mood for sex when it started, but by the end, they're having a blast. You know what I mean? That seems to be kind of their vibe.
And espionage. And so there's like two big pieces of it. First, there's Actually, let me say there's three. First, there is just the fact that these Republicans are willing to go along with this or are starting to fully embrace it. It's like they weren't in the mood for sex when it started, but by the end, they're having a blast. You know what I mean? That seems to be kind of their vibe.
And espionage. And so there's like two big pieces of it. First, there's Actually, let me say there's three. First, there is just the fact that these Republicans are willing to go along with this or are starting to fully embrace it. It's like they weren't in the mood for sex when it started, but by the end, they're having a blast. You know what I mean? That seems to be kind of their vibe.
Yeah, that's right. That's great. That's perfect. That's the image we want to create right now. Then there's the capitulation of institutions, the Columbias and the law firms. And what's interesting about what Trump is doing there is, yes, he's finding the issues where there's divisions inside of these institutions, right? There are the...
Yeah, that's right. That's great. That's perfect. That's the image we want to create right now. Then there's the capitulation of institutions, the Columbias and the law firms. And what's interesting about what Trump is doing there is, yes, he's finding the issues where there's divisions inside of these institutions, right? There are the...
Yeah, that's right. That's great. That's perfect. That's the image we want to create right now. Then there's the capitulation of institutions, the Columbias and the law firms. And what's interesting about what Trump is doing there is, yes, he's finding the issues where there's divisions inside of these institutions, right? There are the...
The lawyers that represent the big, like the Exxon Mobils, and then there are the litigators taking on the pro bono clients or the kind of political clients, and these lawyers that just want the money are like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, stop jeopardizing my bag.
The lawyers that represent the big, like the Exxon Mobils, and then there are the litigators taking on the pro bono clients or the kind of political clients, and these lawyers that just want the money are like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, stop jeopardizing my bag.
The lawyers that represent the big, like the Exxon Mobils, and then there are the litigators taking on the pro bono clients or the kind of political clients, and these lawyers that just want the money are like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, stop jeopardizing my bag.
And then at Columbia, I'm sure there are tons of alumni who are sick of seeing the protests, hate the fact that Columbia has been the center of this controversy, but even in a deeper way, these are institutions that have not had to defend their basic values that they claim to hold.
And then at Columbia, I'm sure there are tons of alumni who are sick of seeing the protests, hate the fact that Columbia has been the center of this controversy, but even in a deeper way, these are institutions that have not had to defend their basic values that they claim to hold.
And then at Columbia, I'm sure there are tons of alumni who are sick of seeing the protests, hate the fact that Columbia has been the center of this controversy, but even in a deeper way, these are institutions that have not had to defend their basic values that they claim to hold.
Columbia claims to be this institution of higher learning, of small L liberal values, freedom of expression, exploration, curiosity, core values about what an educational institution is meant to do. But they violate them all the time. But these institutions have
Columbia claims to be this institution of higher learning, of small L liberal values, freedom of expression, exploration, curiosity, core values about what an educational institution is meant to do. But they violate them all the time. But these institutions have
Columbia claims to be this institution of higher learning, of small L liberal values, freedom of expression, exploration, curiosity, core values about what an educational institution is meant to do. But they violate them all the time. But these institutions have
are illiberal in many ways that they don't really grapple with or think about and all of a sudden they're called upon to live up to their values and they don't know how. They just don't fucking know how. And then you have the broader public.
are illiberal in many ways that they don't really grapple with or think about and all of a sudden they're called upon to live up to their values and they don't know how. They just don't fucking know how. And then you have the broader public.
are illiberal in many ways that they don't really grapple with or think about and all of a sudden they're called upon to live up to their values and they don't know how. They just don't fucking know how. And then you have the broader public.
who are either you know some are fully fucking engaged that's on the right and that's on the left there are people listening to this they're fully engaged they're fully bought in but there are millions of people that are just not paying attention and don't really understand why they should and we've done a terrible job of building credibility with those people and they're just watching this unfold and the big challenge is figuring out how to wake them up but we've spent years waiting for them to wake up on their own and it's just not fucking happening
who are either you know some are fully fucking engaged that's on the right and that's on the left there are people listening to this they're fully engaged they're fully bought in but there are millions of people that are just not paying attention and don't really understand why they should and we've done a terrible job of building credibility with those people and they're just watching this unfold and the big challenge is figuring out how to wake them up but we've spent years waiting for them to wake up on their own and it's just not fucking happening
who are either you know some are fully fucking engaged that's on the right and that's on the left there are people listening to this they're fully engaged they're fully bought in but there are millions of people that are just not paying attention and don't really understand why they should and we've done a terrible job of building credibility with those people and they're just watching this unfold and the big challenge is figuring out how to wake them up but we've spent years waiting for them to wake up on their own and it's just not fucking happening
Yeah, I don't know either. And part of the problem is that there's so many places where this had to, this required decades of like softening of the defense systems. One of which is obviously the right-wing media that is not now, has slowly shifted and then quickly shifted from accusing the mainstream media of being liberal to accusing it of being fake, right?
Yeah, I don't know either. And part of the problem is that there's so many places where this had to, this required decades of like softening of the defense systems. One of which is obviously the right-wing media that is not now, has slowly shifted and then quickly shifted from accusing the mainstream media of being liberal to accusing it of being fake, right?
Yeah, I don't know either. And part of the problem is that there's so many places where this had to, this required decades of like softening of the defense systems. One of which is obviously the right-wing media that is not now, has slowly shifted and then quickly shifted from accusing the mainstream media of being liberal to accusing it of being fake, right?
That was a transition that was happening. And then Donald Trump really accelerated it, especially around January 6th. But then there's how the mainstream media has reacted for decades. And one of the ways they fought against that is by either explicitly or implicitly believing that legitimacy comes from the right.
That was a transition that was happening. And then Donald Trump really accelerated it, especially around January 6th. But then there's how the mainstream media has reacted for decades. And one of the ways they fought against that is by either explicitly or implicitly believing that legitimacy comes from the right.
That was a transition that was happening. And then Donald Trump really accelerated it, especially around January 6th. But then there's how the mainstream media has reacted for decades. And one of the ways they fought against that is by either explicitly or implicitly believing that legitimacy comes from the right.
That on a Sunday show for years, and this is like years and years ago, like when I was a kid, you would turn on the Sunday shows and when they did a round table of journalists, it would be mainstream journalists, mainstream journalists, mainstream journalists, conservative. There would never be somebody from the far left, but you'd have somebody as right. It used to be Crystal.
That on a Sunday show for years, and this is like years and years ago, like when I was a kid, you would turn on the Sunday shows and when they did a round table of journalists, it would be mainstream journalists, mainstream journalists, mainstream journalists, conservative. There would never be somebody from the far left, but you'd have somebody as right. It used to be Crystal.
That on a Sunday show for years, and this is like years and years ago, like when I was a kid, you would turn on the Sunday shows and when they did a round table of journalists, it would be mainstream journalists, mainstream journalists, mainstream journalists, conservative. There would never be somebody from the far left, but you'd have somebody as right. It used to be Crystal.
It used to be Crystal. It used to be Crystal. Your boy. My boy. And by the way, Democrats do this too. Like when we're trying to prove that we're strong on national defense, we say, well, even Republicans like Colin Powell, right? Or even Republicans like John McCain, right?
It used to be Crystal. It used to be Crystal. Your boy. My boy. And by the way, Democrats do this too. Like when we're trying to prove that we're strong on national defense, we say, well, even Republicans like Colin Powell, right? Or even Republicans like John McCain, right?
It used to be Crystal. It used to be Crystal. Your boy. My boy. And by the way, Democrats do this too. Like when we're trying to prove that we're strong on national defense, we say, well, even Republicans like Colin Powell, right? Or even Republicans like John McCain, right?
Sure. And and you end up with Democrats claiming and mainstream media claiming that legitimacy comes from being seen as legitimate from the left and from the right. And and now you have Republicans that even when they agree, even when they want to say that Democrats have a point or the media is correct about something like like in the case of the signal chat.
Sure. And and you end up with Democrats claiming and mainstream media claiming that legitimacy comes from being seen as legitimate from the left and from the right. And and now you have Republicans that even when they agree, even when they want to say that Democrats have a point or the media is correct about something like like in the case of the signal chat.
Sure. And and you end up with Democrats claiming and mainstream media claiming that legitimacy comes from being seen as legitimate from the left and from the right. And and now you have Republicans that even when they agree, even when they want to say that Democrats have a point or the media is correct about something like like in the case of the signal chat.
They know that if they withhold that support, if they withhold that honesty, the story remains murky. That's true about the debt ceiling. That's true about tariffs. That's true about a bunch of different policy questions. And we talk about the value of shame and how much shame played a role in our politics.
They know that if they withhold that support, if they withhold that honesty, the story remains murky. That's true about the debt ceiling. That's true about tariffs. That's true about a bunch of different policy questions. And we talk about the value of shame and how much shame played a role in our politics.
They know that if they withhold that support, if they withhold that honesty, the story remains murky. That's true about the debt ceiling. That's true about tariffs. That's true about a bunch of different policy questions. And we talk about the value of shame and how much shame played a role in our politics.
And when people realized if they abandoned it, there was nothing to stop them from doing whatever they wanted. That's obviously a big part of it. There's a word I come back to over and over again, just in my mind, which is forbearance. Like, I didn't understand how important forbearance was in our politics.
And when people realized if they abandoned it, there was nothing to stop them from doing whatever they wanted. That's obviously a big part of it. There's a word I come back to over and over again, just in my mind, which is forbearance. Like, I didn't understand how important forbearance was in our politics.
And when people realized if they abandoned it, there was nothing to stop them from doing whatever they wanted. That's obviously a big part of it. There's a word I come back to over and over again, just in my mind, which is forbearance. Like, I didn't understand how important forbearance was in our politics.
That basically, if a judge ruled against you, even if you were pissed, you didn't go to the cameras and say you were going to defund that guy. There was an understanding that in our system, you're going to win some, you're going to lose some, and you just, you can bear it. You can take it. You don't have to rant and rave about your enemies. You don't have to declare war on anybody.
That basically, if a judge ruled against you, even if you were pissed, you didn't go to the cameras and say you were going to defund that guy. There was an understanding that in our system, you're going to win some, you're going to lose some, and you just, you can bear it. You can take it. You don't have to rant and rave about your enemies. You don't have to declare war on anybody.
That basically, if a judge ruled against you, even if you were pissed, you didn't go to the cameras and say you were going to defund that guy. There was an understanding that in our system, you're going to win some, you're going to lose some, and you just, you can bear it. You can take it. You don't have to rant and rave about your enemies. You don't have to declare war on anybody.
You don't have to look around the corner, right? If you lose a budget fight and you don't get to end the Department of Education, you don't get to do it administratively. You wait, you wait, you show patience and restraint.
You don't have to look around the corner, right? If you lose a budget fight and you don't get to end the Department of Education, you don't get to do it administratively. You wait, you wait, you show patience and restraint.
You don't have to look around the corner, right? If you lose a budget fight and you don't get to end the Department of Education, you don't get to do it administratively. You wait, you wait, you show patience and restraint.
And that a lot of what we build in this country was based on a collective understanding that people would be patient, that they would show restraint, that they would have forbearance. And these people have abandoned that. And that's why Kristi Noem is standing in front of a group of prisoners shooting a video. That's why Pete Hegseth can go to the cameras and claim it's all a hoax.
And that a lot of what we build in this country was based on a collective understanding that people would be patient, that they would show restraint, that they would have forbearance. And these people have abandoned that. And that's why Kristi Noem is standing in front of a group of prisoners shooting a video. That's why Pete Hegseth can go to the cameras and claim it's all a hoax.
And that a lot of what we build in this country was based on a collective understanding that people would be patient, that they would show restraint, that they would have forbearance. And these people have abandoned that. And that's why Kristi Noem is standing in front of a group of prisoners shooting a video. That's why Pete Hegseth can go to the cameras and claim it's all a hoax.
They have no sense of, yes, they're shameless, but they have no restraint.
They have no sense of, yes, they're shameless, but they have no restraint.
They have no sense of, yes, they're shameless, but they have no restraint.
Well, you had people like John McCain who had been tortured. And people who had a value set and a mission that was not connected to their Republican politics. They were Republicans. They were Republicans. But they were also Virginians and Arizonans and veterans and whatever, Irish. They had a core set of values and principles that had led them into politics in a different age.
Well, you had people like John McCain who had been tortured. And people who had a value set and a mission that was not connected to their Republican politics. They were Republicans. They were Republicans. But they were also Virginians and Arizonans and veterans and whatever, Irish. They had a core set of values and principles that had led them into politics in a different age.
Well, you had people like John McCain who had been tortured. And people who had a value set and a mission that was not connected to their Republican politics. They were Republicans. They were Republicans. But they were also Virginians and Arizonans and veterans and whatever, Irish. They had a core set of values and principles that had led them into politics in a different age.
They also, by the way, consumed a bunch of – as individuals, they consumed – the mainstream media. I mean, we've talked about this before. It was always a bit of theater, right? Like Republicans would bash the mainstream press, but they would read it and care about it. And by the way, it was left. It was biased towards the left. Absolutely. Absolutely.
They also, by the way, consumed a bunch of – as individuals, they consumed – the mainstream media. I mean, we've talked about this before. It was always a bit of theater, right? Like Republicans would bash the mainstream press, but they would read it and care about it. And by the way, it was left. It was biased towards the left. Absolutely. Absolutely.
They also, by the way, consumed a bunch of – as individuals, they consumed – the mainstream media. I mean, we've talked about this before. It was always a bit of theater, right? Like Republicans would bash the mainstream press, but they would read it and care about it. And by the way, it was left. It was biased towards the left. Absolutely. Absolutely.
And the mainstream press to this day, it treats Republicans like antagonists and Democrats like protagonists. Democrats are inherently the heroes and Republicans are inherently they're kind of trying to stop their foil. Yeah. Sometimes villains, but mostly just foil. Fine, all of that was true, but they read it. They consumed it. There was a basic understanding of reality.
And the mainstream press to this day, it treats Republicans like antagonists and Democrats like protagonists. Democrats are inherently the heroes and Republicans are inherently they're kind of trying to stop their foil. Yeah. Sometimes villains, but mostly just foil. Fine, all of that was true, but they read it. They consumed it. There was a basic understanding of reality.
And the mainstream press to this day, it treats Republicans like antagonists and Democrats like protagonists. Democrats are inherently the heroes and Republicans are inherently they're kind of trying to stop their foil. Yeah. Sometimes villains, but mostly just foil. Fine, all of that was true, but they read it. They consumed it. There was a basic understanding of reality.
And what happened is the right-wing fringe- through the media, slowly started eating more and more of your party, Tim. And its whole ethos is we are a rebellion within the Republican Party and within politics. Go look at Newt Gingrich's speech to the college Republicans in 1978. It's about being outsiders inside of a broken system. They are pilgrims in an unholy land.
And what happened is the right-wing fringe- through the media, slowly started eating more and more of your party, Tim. And its whole ethos is we are a rebellion within the Republican Party and within politics. Go look at Newt Gingrich's speech to the college Republicans in 1978. It's about being outsiders inside of a broken system. They are pilgrims in an unholy land.
And what happened is the right-wing fringe- through the media, slowly started eating more and more of your party, Tim. And its whole ethos is we are a rebellion within the Republican Party and within politics. Go look at Newt Gingrich's speech to the college Republicans in 1978. It's about being outsiders inside of a broken system. They are pilgrims in an unholy land.
And everything about it is we are not in charge. So we can go a little further. We can make crazy claims. We can say we're going to do things that if anyone actually did them would be country destroying. And now they are in charge.
And everything about it is we are not in charge. So we can go a little further. We can make crazy claims. We can say we're going to do things that if anyone actually did them would be country destroying. And now they are in charge.
And everything about it is we are not in charge. So we can go a little further. We can make crazy claims. We can say we're going to do things that if anyone actually did them would be country destroying. And now they are in charge.
And these are people that their whole sense of the world, of themselves, of their politics, it was all about being people who didn't have power. They were kind of throwing spitballs at the system. They were teenagers. They were teenagers with a curfew.
And these are people that their whole sense of the world, of themselves, of their politics, it was all about being people who didn't have power. They were kind of throwing spitballs at the system. They were teenagers. They were teenagers with a curfew.
And these are people that their whole sense of the world, of themselves, of their politics, it was all about being people who didn't have power. They were kind of throwing spitballs at the system. They were teenagers. They were teenagers with a curfew.
who are like, I wanna stay out late, and mom and dad won't let me, and it's because they hate freedom, and it's because they don't understand what it's like to be me, and they're terrible, and they're stupid, and there's no reason, nothing makes sense, they're all crazy, and then all of a sudden, their parents go away, and they stay out too late, and they destroy the car, and they ruin the house, and they come to realize, in the movie version,
who are like, I wanna stay out late, and mom and dad won't let me, and it's because they hate freedom, and it's because they don't understand what it's like to be me, and they're terrible, and they're stupid, and there's no reason, nothing makes sense, they're all crazy, and then all of a sudden, their parents go away, and they stay out too late, and they destroy the car, and they ruin the house, and they come to realize, in the movie version,
who are like, I wanna stay out late, and mom and dad won't let me, and it's because they hate freedom, and it's because they don't understand what it's like to be me, and they're terrible, and they're stupid, and there's no reason, nothing makes sense, they're all crazy, and then all of a sudden, their parents go away, and they stay out too late, and they destroy the car, and they ruin the house, and they come to realize, in the movie version,
oh, maybe some of these rules, maybe mom and dad weren't so stupid after all. Maybe all my yelling and screaming wasn't actually totally fair. But these people are never going to realize that. Mom and dad aren't coming home. The house is burned to the ground. It's a sad version of that movie.
oh, maybe some of these rules, maybe mom and dad weren't so stupid after all. Maybe all my yelling and screaming wasn't actually totally fair. But these people are never going to realize that. Mom and dad aren't coming home. The house is burned to the ground. It's a sad version of that movie.
oh, maybe some of these rules, maybe mom and dad weren't so stupid after all. Maybe all my yelling and screaming wasn't actually totally fair. But these people are never going to realize that. Mom and dad aren't coming home. The house is burned to the ground. It's a sad version of that movie.
They said their parents sell Salvador.
They said their parents sell Salvador.
They said their parents sell Salvador.
All of these people, Everyone, every one of them, right? Like why can RFK Jr. become the head of HHS while being anti-vax? Because we live in a world where vaccines work so thoroughly that people don't fear enough what it would look like to live in a world without them. Why can we put someone like Pam Bondi at the Department of Justice?
All of these people, Everyone, every one of them, right? Like why can RFK Jr. become the head of HHS while being anti-vax? Because we live in a world where vaccines work so thoroughly that people don't fear enough what it would look like to live in a world without them. Why can we put someone like Pam Bondi at the Department of Justice?
All of these people, Everyone, every one of them, right? Like why can RFK Jr. become the head of HHS while being anti-vax? Because we live in a world where vaccines work so thoroughly that people don't fear enough what it would look like to live in a world without them. Why can we put someone like Pam Bondi at the Department of Justice?
Because people take as a baseline, as table stakes, that they don't live in a world where political prosecutions are happening left and right.
Because people take as a baseline, as table stakes, that they don't live in a world where political prosecutions are happening left and right.
Because people take as a baseline, as table stakes, that they don't live in a world where political prosecutions are happening left and right.
Right, like, Lutnik, Lutnik can say, oh, buy Tesla stock, right? Because he takes for granted that America is a society where there's been tons of corruption, there are tons of ways where big businesses buy influence, there's lobbying, there's a whole bunch of problems. But for the most part, we know that...
Right, like, Lutnik, Lutnik can say, oh, buy Tesla stock, right? Because he takes for granted that America is a society where there's been tons of corruption, there are tons of ways where big businesses buy influence, there's lobbying, there's a whole bunch of problems. But for the most part, we know that...
Right, like, Lutnik, Lutnik can say, oh, buy Tesla stock, right? Because he takes for granted that America is a society where there's been tons of corruption, there are tons of ways where big businesses buy influence, there's lobbying, there's a whole bunch of problems. But for the most part, we know that...
If there's somewhere where you gotta give somebody a million dollars to get a permit for a building, or you need to know the right people in order to do a startup, if that became the normal in this country, it would destroy the thing that made America's economy the envy of the world, the economy where he got personally rich. They are children.
If there's somewhere where you gotta give somebody a million dollars to get a permit for a building, or you need to know the right people in order to do a startup, if that became the normal in this country, it would destroy the thing that made America's economy the envy of the world, the economy where he got personally rich. They are children.
If there's somewhere where you gotta give somebody a million dollars to get a permit for a building, or you need to know the right people in order to do a startup, if that became the normal in this country, it would destroy the thing that made America's economy the envy of the world, the economy where he got personally rich. They are children.
who don't respect or understand the systems that were built and how it made this country so great. And now they are tearing at the foundations of that thing because they are either stupid or careless or vile. And we will live with the repercussions.
who don't respect or understand the systems that were built and how it made this country so great. And now they are tearing at the foundations of that thing because they are either stupid or careless or vile. And we will live with the repercussions.
who don't respect or understand the systems that were built and how it made this country so great. And now they are tearing at the foundations of that thing because they are either stupid or careless or vile. And we will live with the repercussions.
I wonder where you're at on it. Just think about what had to happen, right, for Nome to get that shot, right? They made those prisoners all line up and face the cameras and stand there under, you know, God knows what, only threat. By the way, those pictures in front of the Salvadoran prisoners, right? Salvador prisoners. Those are Salvador prisoners.
I wonder where you're at on it. Just think about what had to happen, right, for Nome to get that shot, right? They made those prisoners all line up and face the cameras and stand there under, you know, God knows what, only threat. By the way, those pictures in front of the Salvadoran prisoners, right? Salvador prisoners. Those are Salvador prisoners.
I wonder where you're at on it. Just think about what had to happen, right, for Nome to get that shot, right? They made those prisoners all line up and face the cameras and stand there under, you know, God knows what, only threat. By the way, those pictures in front of the Salvadoran prisoners, right? Salvador prisoners. Those are Salvador prisoners.
Those are not the prisoners that she sent there or was part of sending there. And you're just going to use them as props to film this video. And what does she say in that video? She says some version of, if you're a violent immigrant, this could happen to you. This is where we might send you.
Those are not the prisoners that she sent there or was part of sending there. And you're just going to use them as props to film this video. And what does she say in that video? She says some version of, if you're a violent immigrant, this could happen to you. This is where we might send you.
Those are not the prisoners that she sent there or was part of sending there. And you're just going to use them as props to film this video. And what does she say in that video? She says some version of, if you're a violent immigrant, this could happen to you. This is where we might send you.
Now, that prison, it's only been open for a couple years, was opened by this right-wing government as part of a state of emergency to crack down on gangs.
Now, that prison, it's only been open for a couple years, was opened by this right-wing government as part of a state of emergency to crack down on gangs.
Now, that prison, it's only been open for a couple years, was opened by this right-wing government as part of a state of emergency to crack down on gangs.
We have now sent some unknown number, let's say it's like 260 some odd people there, because they are claimed by this administration to be members of this gang, but not because they were convicted of a crime that resulted... And by the way, they may have... These people were in detention. I don't know what they did. I don't know who they are. We haven't been told anything.
We have now sent some unknown number, let's say it's like 260 some odd people there, because they are claimed by this administration to be members of this gang, but not because they were convicted of a crime that resulted... And by the way, they may have... These people were in detention. I don't know what they did. I don't know who they are. We haven't been told anything.
We have now sent some unknown number, let's say it's like 260 some odd people there, because they are claimed by this administration to be members of this gang, but not because they were convicted of a crime that resulted... And by the way, they may have... These people were in detention. I don't know what they did. I don't know who they are. We haven't been told anything.
Some of these guys, I'm sure, are terrible and unsavory figures, but they are now in a prison. They've not just been deported to Venezuela, their country of origin, or deported to another country for some reason. They're in a prison. How long are they going to be there, right?
Some of these guys, I'm sure, are terrible and unsavory figures, but they are now in a prison. They've not just been deported to Venezuela, their country of origin, or deported to another country for some reason. They're in a prison. How long are they going to be there, right?
Some of these guys, I'm sure, are terrible and unsavory figures, but they are now in a prison. They've not just been deported to Venezuela, their country of origin, or deported to another country for some reason. They're in a prison. How long are they going to be there, right?
The Salvadoran administration of this prison about the Salvadorans, they are holding people indefinitely as part of this state of emergency, right? They're just holding people. They're just saying, these people are not fit for society. We're holding them. In America, we don't do that. We don't do that. If someone's in a prison, it's- Sometimes you get it fucking wrong.
The Salvadoran administration of this prison about the Salvadorans, they are holding people indefinitely as part of this state of emergency, right? They're just holding people. They're just saying, these people are not fit for society. We're holding them. In America, we don't do that. We don't do that. If someone's in a prison, it's- Sometimes you get it fucking wrong.
The Salvadoran administration of this prison about the Salvadorans, they are holding people indefinitely as part of this state of emergency, right? They're just holding people. They're just saying, these people are not fit for society. We're holding them. In America, we don't do that. We don't do that. If someone's in a prison, it's- Sometimes you get it fucking wrong.
But even if you get it fucking right, you get it right.
But even if you get it fucking right, you get it right.
But even if you get it fucking right, you get it right.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, of course.
People commit crimes. That's what makes them criminals. They're not instinctively, inherently criminal. We don't lock people up because they are criminals. We convict them of crimes. That makes them a criminal. And they serve some kind of a sentence, maybe a long sentence, maybe a life sentence. But we have now sent a bunch of people to a Salvadoran gulag.
People commit crimes. That's what makes them criminals. They're not instinctively, inherently criminal. We don't lock people up because they are criminals. We convict them of crimes. That makes them a criminal. And they serve some kind of a sentence, maybe a long sentence, maybe a life sentence. But we have now sent a bunch of people to a Salvadoran gulag.
People commit crimes. That's what makes them criminals. They're not instinctively, inherently criminal. We don't lock people up because they are criminals. We convict them of crimes. That makes them a criminal. And they serve some kind of a sentence, maybe a long sentence, maybe a life sentence. But we have now sent a bunch of people to a Salvadoran gulag.
The government has not said who they are, hasn't said how long they're meant to be there, right? They have no sentences, right? We don't know what they're accused of. They weren't a public safety threat, right? Because they were in detention, the members of this gang that they're claiming they have, right? And I'm sure many of them are members of this gang. So they're just down there now.
The government has not said who they are, hasn't said how long they're meant to be there, right? They have no sentences, right? We don't know what they're accused of. They weren't a public safety threat, right? Because they were in detention, the members of this gang that they're claiming they have, right? And I'm sure many of them are members of this gang. So they're just down there now.
The government has not said who they are, hasn't said how long they're meant to be there, right? They have no sentences, right? We don't know what they're accused of. They weren't a public safety threat, right? Because they were in detention, the members of this gang that they're claiming they have, right? And I'm sure many of them are members of this gang. So they're just down there now.
We'll see how long. We have no idea with no information. And then it turns out that part of the way they've been doing this roundup is by just grabbing Venezuelan men who are non-citizens who have tattoos, even if they've applied for refugee status, even if they've applied for asylum. The one example about autism awareness that you mentioned that's exceptionally chilling is he was cleared.
We'll see how long. We have no idea with no information. And then it turns out that part of the way they've been doing this roundup is by just grabbing Venezuelan men who are non-citizens who have tattoos, even if they've applied for refugee status, even if they've applied for asylum. The one example about autism awareness that you mentioned that's exceptionally chilling is he was cleared.
We'll see how long. We have no idea with no information. And then it turns out that part of the way they've been doing this roundup is by just grabbing Venezuelan men who are non-citizens who have tattoos, even if they've applied for refugee status, even if they've applied for asylum. The one example about autism awareness that you mentioned that's exceptionally chilling is he was cleared.
He did the background check. They looked over the tattoos. It's for autism awareness. Yeah. It's a fucking rainbow. It's a rainbow ribbon. It's a rainbow ribbon, right? It's not like, you know, I'm not a tattoo person. But when I see a rainbow ribbon, I don't think Hardin gang member.
He did the background check. They looked over the tattoos. It's for autism awareness. Yeah. It's a fucking rainbow. It's a rainbow ribbon. It's a rainbow ribbon, right? It's not like, you know, I'm not a tattoo person. But when I see a rainbow ribbon, I don't think Hardin gang member.
He did the background check. They looked over the tattoos. It's for autism awareness. Yeah. It's a fucking rainbow. It's a rainbow ribbon. It's a rainbow ribbon, right? It's not like, you know, I'm not a tattoo person. But when I see a rainbow ribbon, I don't think Hardin gang member.
And, you know, and there's this aspect that's been playing out when these stories break, which is that they grab somebody off the fucking street. They don't give you any information. They don't get due process. Suddenly they go to El Salvador and they're like, these are hardened criminals. And then you say, well... Show us, prove us. And then you're, and there's a little part of you, right.
And, you know, and there's this aspect that's been playing out when these stories break, which is that they grab somebody off the fucking street. They don't give you any information. They don't get due process. Suddenly they go to El Salvador and they're like, these are hardened criminals. And then you say, well... Show us, prove us. And then you're, and there's a little part of you, right.
And, you know, and there's this aspect that's been playing out when these stories break, which is that they grab somebody off the fucking street. They don't give you any information. They don't get due process. Suddenly they go to El Salvador and they're like, these are hardened criminals. And then you say, well... Show us, prove us. And then you're, and there's a little part of you, right.
That's saying like, well, I'm going to say they got the wrong guy. And then they're going to provide the evidence that says, actually, this person's terrible. Right. And it's like, well, fuck you. These people should be innocent until proven guilty. And yeah, maybe that you, whatever the, whatever the standard may be legally for deportations, which is different. Right. Right.
That's saying like, well, I'm going to say they got the wrong guy. And then they're going to provide the evidence that says, actually, this person's terrible. Right. And it's like, well, fuck you. These people should be innocent until proven guilty. And yeah, maybe that you, whatever the, whatever the standard may be legally for deportations, which is different. Right. Right.
That's saying like, well, I'm going to say they got the wrong guy. And then they're going to provide the evidence that says, actually, this person's terrible. Right. And it's like, well, fuck you. These people should be innocent until proven guilty. And yeah, maybe that you, whatever the, whatever the standard may be legally for deportations, which is different. Right. Right.
That should be our American instinct, which is, no, we don't throw people on a plane to a foreign country without putting them in front of a fucking judge. And until you give us that information, we'll assume you got it wrong because that's what we should do.
That should be our American instinct, which is, no, we don't throw people on a plane to a foreign country without putting them in front of a fucking judge. And until you give us that information, we'll assume you got it wrong because that's what we should do.
That should be our American instinct, which is, no, we don't throw people on a plane to a foreign country without putting them in front of a fucking judge. And until you give us that information, we'll assume you got it wrong because that's what we should do.
He's still there. Night after night. I mean, that is, like... Like this person, right, is now scarred. I mean, just scarred in a way we can't comprehend, right? He just was... By the way, doing everything we said to do, right? Applying legally, following the rules, doing what he was supposed to be doing.
He's still there. Night after night. I mean, that is, like... Like this person, right, is now scarred. I mean, just scarred in a way we can't comprehend, right? He just was... By the way, doing everything we said to do, right? Applying legally, following the rules, doing what he was supposed to be doing.
He's still there. Night after night. I mean, that is, like... Like this person, right, is now scarred. I mean, just scarred in a way we can't comprehend, right? He just was... By the way, doing everything we said to do, right? Applying legally, following the rules, doing what he was supposed to be doing.
And then this is the... It's... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
And then this is the... It's... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
And then this is the... It's... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . in in in in in. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P.,,. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. in P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P of P. P. P. P. P. P. P. It's not that millions of people will show up in the streets of D.C. to stop this. It's that they won't, right?
It's not that this will culminate in some great democratic movement that will be ugly and scary. It's that that democratic movement won't coalesce. And I do think our project over the next... six months, next year, is to try to figure out how to reawaken that spirit of democracy.
It's not that this will culminate in some great democratic movement that will be ugly and scary. It's that that democratic movement won't coalesce. And I do think our project over the next... six months, next year, is to try to figure out how to reawaken that spirit of democracy.
It's not that this will culminate in some great democratic movement that will be ugly and scary. It's that that democratic movement won't coalesce. And I do think our project over the next... six months, next year, is to try to figure out how to reawaken that spirit of democracy.
And that's why I've been struggling to articulate this too, which is why I find the kind of Luigi fanfic so disgraceful. And by the way, why I think throwing fucking Molotov cocktails at a Tesla is so stupid. It's not because I'm some liberal squish, although I am, and I view those things as wrong, though I do.
And that's why I've been struggling to articulate this too, which is why I find the kind of Luigi fanfic so disgraceful. And by the way, why I think throwing fucking Molotov cocktails at a Tesla is so stupid. It's not because I'm some liberal squish, although I am, and I view those things as wrong, though I do.
And that's why I've been struggling to articulate this too, which is why I find the kind of Luigi fanfic so disgraceful. And by the way, why I think throwing fucking Molotov cocktails at a Tesla is so stupid. It's not because I'm some liberal squish, although I am, and I view those things as wrong, though I do.
It is because fundamentally, I remember there was this historian, Richard Evans, I believe his name, I may be having his name wrong, but he wrote these three books, The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, and The Third Reich at War. And he gave an interview about the books about one thing he learned from them. And he said, you will never out-violence the fascists. Why?
It is because fundamentally, I remember there was this historian, Richard Evans, I believe his name, I may be having his name wrong, but he wrote these three books, The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, and The Third Reich at War. And he gave an interview about the books about one thing he learned from them. And he said, you will never out-violence the fascists. Why?
It is because fundamentally, I remember there was this historian, Richard Evans, I believe his name, I may be having his name wrong, but he wrote these three books, The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, and The Third Reich at War. And he gave an interview about the books about one thing he learned from them. And he said, you will never out-violence the fascists. Why?
Well, because at root, what is right wing authoritarianism? What is what is the kind of the final form of right wing authoritarianism? It is one person deciding how the rest of us live. And that's what an assassin does. That's what a dictator does. That's what a person who commits violence at a rally does. It is someone deciding for themselves what's going to happen to the rest of us.
Well, because at root, what is right wing authoritarianism? What is what is the kind of the final form of right wing authoritarianism? It is one person deciding how the rest of us live. And that's what an assassin does. That's what a dictator does. That's what a person who commits violence at a rally does. It is someone deciding for themselves what's going to happen to the rest of us.
Well, because at root, what is right wing authoritarianism? What is what is the kind of the final form of right wing authoritarianism? It is one person deciding how the rest of us live. And that's what an assassin does. That's what a dictator does. That's what a person who commits violence at a rally does. It is someone deciding for themselves what's going to happen to the rest of us.
What is the core fundamental left decision? expression of power. It is solidarity. It is millions of people coming together to make a choice for themselves and choosing what happens to the country. That is a protest. That is an election. That is a Congress. And so what we have to do is build towards that kind of mass mobilization, that kind of solidarity. And violence...
What is the core fundamental left decision? expression of power. It is solidarity. It is millions of people coming together to make a choice for themselves and choosing what happens to the country. That is a protest. That is an election. That is a Congress. And so what we have to do is build towards that kind of mass mobilization, that kind of solidarity. And violence...
What is the core fundamental left decision? expression of power. It is solidarity. It is millions of people coming together to make a choice for themselves and choosing what happens to the country. That is a protest. That is an election. That is a Congress. And so what we have to do is build towards that kind of mass mobilization, that kind of solidarity. And violence...
individuals taking it upon themselves to decide what happens and where is anathema to that and makes that harder because it will enable the crackdown that we are already seeing unfolding.
individuals taking it upon themselves to decide what happens and where is anathema to that and makes that harder because it will enable the crackdown that we are already seeing unfolding.
individuals taking it upon themselves to decide what happens and where is anathema to that and makes that harder because it will enable the crackdown that we are already seeing unfolding.
And what we have to think about every single day is how do we get to the point where millions of people are in the streets to send a signal to Republican politicians, to send a signal to their fellow Americans, or by the way, A big enough protest that in and of itself can help is power. In and of itself can shut down a city.
And what we have to think about every single day is how do we get to the point where millions of people are in the streets to send a signal to Republican politicians, to send a signal to their fellow Americans, or by the way, A big enough protest that in and of itself can help is power. In and of itself can shut down a city.
And what we have to think about every single day is how do we get to the point where millions of people are in the streets to send a signal to Republican politicians, to send a signal to their fellow Americans, or by the way, A big enough protest that in and of itself can help is power. In and of itself can shut down a city.
In and of itself can stop authoritarianism or force authoritarianism to reveal its horrible nature before the country. I don't know where we're heading, but that's one of the places where we could be heading. And if we are, it requires forbearance on our side too.
In and of itself can stop authoritarianism or force authoritarianism to reveal its horrible nature before the country. I don't know where we're heading, but that's one of the places where we could be heading. And if we are, it requires forbearance on our side too.
In and of itself can stop authoritarianism or force authoritarianism to reveal its horrible nature before the country. I don't know where we're heading, but that's one of the places where we could be heading. And if we are, it requires forbearance on our side too.
Where are the protests right now? Were there student protests at Columbia? Agree with them, don't agree with them as people standing up for what they believed in. Columbia just gave in to the most flagrant attack on free speech that I've seen in my lifetime.
Where are the protests right now? Were there student protests at Columbia? Agree with them, don't agree with them as people standing up for what they believed in. Columbia just gave in to the most flagrant attack on free speech that I've seen in my lifetime.
Where are the protests right now? Were there student protests at Columbia? Agree with them, don't agree with them as people standing up for what they believed in. Columbia just gave in to the most flagrant attack on free speech that I've seen in my lifetime.
The president of the United States declaring himself basically provost of Columbia, dictating specific departmental rules, dictating specific policies on a private university's campus. Where is the protest? Where is everybody? Why don't people care enough? Why isn't there a politics that is inspiring people to take to the streets when these kinds of things happen?
The president of the United States declaring himself basically provost of Columbia, dictating specific departmental rules, dictating specific policies on a private university's campus. Where is the protest? Where is everybody? Why don't people care enough? Why isn't there a politics that is inspiring people to take to the streets when these kinds of things happen?
The president of the United States declaring himself basically provost of Columbia, dictating specific departmental rules, dictating specific policies on a private university's campus. Where is the protest? Where is everybody? Why don't people care enough? Why isn't there a politics that is inspiring people to take to the streets when these kinds of things happen?
Why are we more geared towards the political fights we've had for 30 years than the biggest fight we've ever seen in our lives happening right in front of our faces and people aren't showing up?
Why are we more geared towards the political fights we've had for 30 years than the biggest fight we've ever seen in our lives happening right in front of our faces and people aren't showing up?
Why are we more geared towards the political fights we've had for 30 years than the biggest fight we've ever seen in our lives happening right in front of our faces and people aren't showing up?
Yeah, so this is a Supreme Court race in Wisconsin. This is not just about a signal. This is incredibly important. Basically, last year, or I'm losing track of time. I think this was last year, the beginning of last year. There was a Supreme Court race in Wisconsin. This judge, Janet Protasewicz, she won. That shifted the balance of the court from right to left.
Yeah, so this is a Supreme Court race in Wisconsin. This is not just about a signal. This is incredibly important. Basically, last year, or I'm losing track of time. I think this was last year, the beginning of last year. There was a Supreme Court race in Wisconsin. This judge, Janet Protasewicz, she won. That shifted the balance of the court from right to left.
Yeah, so this is a Supreme Court race in Wisconsin. This is not just about a signal. This is incredibly important. Basically, last year, or I'm losing track of time. I think this was last year, the beginning of last year. There was a Supreme Court race in Wisconsin. This judge, Janet Protasewicz, she won. That shifted the balance of the court from right to left.
That's why Republicans were so upset. That's why they've tried to stymie this court now at every turn. What that court has never been able to do is kind of put in place fair maps for the assembly. Right now, the Republicans had a super majority because they drew their own maps, right? Wisconsin is a 50-50 state, currently has six Republican House members, two Democratic House members.
That's why Republicans were so upset. That's why they've tried to stymie this court now at every turn. What that court has never been able to do is kind of put in place fair maps for the assembly. Right now, the Republicans had a super majority because they drew their own maps, right? Wisconsin is a 50-50 state, currently has six Republican House members, two Democratic House members.
That's why Republicans were so upset. That's why they've tried to stymie this court now at every turn. What that court has never been able to do is kind of put in place fair maps for the assembly. Right now, the Republicans had a super majority because they drew their own maps, right? Wisconsin is a 50-50 state, currently has six Republican House members, two Democratic House members.
The assembly was gerrymandered towards the right. They put in place fair assembly maps. They could put in place, if we win this race, fair, ungerrymandered congressional maps. Also at stake is whether or not they put it back in place, this 1849 abortion law.
The assembly was gerrymandered towards the right. They put in place fair assembly maps. They could put in place, if we win this race, fair, ungerrymandered congressional maps. Also at stake is whether or not they put it back in place, this 1849 abortion law.
The assembly was gerrymandered towards the right. They put in place fair assembly maps. They could put in place, if we win this race, fair, ungerrymandered congressional maps. Also at stake is whether or not they put it back in place, this 1849 abortion law.
In theory, they can enforce the old abortion law. They can put back in place the gerrymandered assembly maps. They can prevent fair maps from redrawing the congressional districts. They also will now have somebody in place that will rubber stamp basically anything they do to try to rig the electoral system towards Republicans, right? This is a MAGA guy. We got so close.
In theory, they can enforce the old abortion law. They can put back in place the gerrymandered assembly maps. They can prevent fair maps from redrawing the congressional districts. They also will now have somebody in place that will rubber stamp basically anything they do to try to rig the electoral system towards Republicans, right? This is a MAGA guy. We got so close.
In theory, they can enforce the old abortion law. They can put back in place the gerrymandered assembly maps. They can prevent fair maps from redrawing the congressional districts. They also will now have somebody in place that will rubber stamp basically anything they do to try to rig the electoral system towards Republicans, right? This is a MAGA guy. We got so close.
So they're being able to toss out Joe Biden's win in Wisconsin. If you have someone like Brad Schimel in place, who knows what could happen, but now they would be in a position to throw out election results. We're seeing this unfold in North Carolina right now. Republican judge lost that race.
So they're being able to toss out Joe Biden's win in Wisconsin. If you have someone like Brad Schimel in place, who knows what could happen, but now they would be in a position to throw out election results. We're seeing this unfold in North Carolina right now. Republican judge lost that race.
So they're being able to toss out Joe Biden's win in Wisconsin. If you have someone like Brad Schimel in place, who knows what could happen, but now they would be in a position to throw out election results. We're seeing this unfold in North Carolina right now. Republican judge lost that race.
They are now trying to throw out votes they don't like purely based on the fact that they want to steal this thing. That could happen in Wisconsin. But more than that, So Elon Musk has put $13 million into this race. It's fucking crazy. He's just dumping money into this race. Wisconsin came out and voted for Judge Protasiewicz because they didn't want the 1849 abortion law.
They are now trying to throw out votes they don't like purely based on the fact that they want to steal this thing. That could happen in Wisconsin. But more than that, So Elon Musk has put $13 million into this race. It's fucking crazy. He's just dumping money into this race. Wisconsin came out and voted for Judge Protasiewicz because they didn't want the 1849 abortion law.
They are now trying to throw out votes they don't like purely based on the fact that they want to steal this thing. That could happen in Wisconsin. But more than that, So Elon Musk has put $13 million into this race. It's fucking crazy. He's just dumping money into this race. Wisconsin came out and voted for Judge Protasiewicz because they didn't want the 1849 abortion law.
They didn't want a right-wing judge. If Donald Trump is able to buy this seat for Brad Schimel and they're able to put in place gerrymandered maps, have somebody in place that's going to rule in favor of Republicans when they question the outcome of elections, that sends a signal. First of all, that's terrible on its own, right? It makes winning the presidency that much harder in the future.
They didn't want a right-wing judge. If Donald Trump is able to buy this seat for Brad Schimel and they're able to put in place gerrymandered maps, have somebody in place that's going to rule in favor of Republicans when they question the outcome of elections, that sends a signal. First of all, that's terrible on its own, right? It makes winning the presidency that much harder in the future.
They didn't want a right-wing judge. If Donald Trump is able to buy this seat for Brad Schimel and they're able to put in place gerrymandered maps, have somebody in place that's going to rule in favor of Republicans when they question the outcome of elections, that sends a signal. First of all, that's terrible on its own, right? It makes winning the presidency that much harder in the future.
But also, this sends a message, right? Right now, there are squishy Republican House members who are not sure what's more dangerous, to them. Should be the more afraid of Elon Musk or their voters, right? Should they vote for reconciliation, cut Medicaid, cut taxes for rich people and hope that Elon Musk's money protects them in the fall?
But also, this sends a message, right? Right now, there are squishy Republican House members who are not sure what's more dangerous, to them. Should be the more afraid of Elon Musk or their voters, right? Should they vote for reconciliation, cut Medicaid, cut taxes for rich people and hope that Elon Musk's money protects them in the fall?
But also, this sends a message, right? Right now, there are squishy Republican House members who are not sure what's more dangerous, to them. Should be the more afraid of Elon Musk or their voters, right? Should they vote for reconciliation, cut Medicaid, cut taxes for rich people and hope that Elon Musk's money protects them in the fall?
Or should they buck Elon, bear the attacks from the right and trust that their voters will protect them? If Elon Musk can buy the seat, that's a big proof point for these Republicans to just stick with the program. And we don't want them to stick with the program. We want them to be afraid. We want voters to overwhelm and overcome the advantage that comes from all of this money.
Or should they buck Elon, bear the attacks from the right and trust that their voters will protect them? If Elon Musk can buy the seat, that's a big proof point for these Republicans to just stick with the program. And we don't want them to stick with the program. We want them to be afraid. We want voters to overwhelm and overcome the advantage that comes from all of this money.
Or should they buck Elon, bear the attacks from the right and trust that their voters will protect them? If Elon Musk can buy the seat, that's a big proof point for these Republicans to just stick with the program. And we don't want them to stick with the program. We want them to be afraid. We want voters to overwhelm and overcome the advantage that comes from all of this money.
So the stakes for Wisconsin are incredibly high, but the stakes for the country are very high, both in terms of how this court could rule in future elections challenges and also the message it sends about whether or not Elon Musk's money can buy a seat. So if you're in Wisconsin, make sure you cast your vote. If you know somebody in Wisconsin, shoot them a text. Election's on Tuesday.
So the stakes for Wisconsin are incredibly high, but the stakes for the country are very high, both in terms of how this court could rule in future elections challenges and also the message it sends about whether or not Elon Musk's money can buy a seat. So if you're in Wisconsin, make sure you cast your vote. If you know somebody in Wisconsin, shoot them a text. Election's on Tuesday.
So the stakes for Wisconsin are incredibly high, but the stakes for the country are very high, both in terms of how this court could rule in future elections challenges and also the message it sends about whether or not Elon Musk's money can buy a seat. So if you're in Wisconsin, make sure you cast your vote. If you know somebody in Wisconsin, shoot them a text. Election's on Tuesday.
Election is on Tuesday.
Election is on Tuesday.
Election is on Tuesday.
It was great. We were in Madison. We were in Milwaukee. A lot of that is just about making sure everybody gets their ballots in. It was reassuring going to the doors. We went to, I think, 150 doors, something like that. And everybody knew the election was coming. Every lefty had gotten their ballot in and was making sure everybody in their life got their ballot in.
It was great. We were in Madison. We were in Milwaukee. A lot of that is just about making sure everybody gets their ballots in. It was reassuring going to the doors. We went to, I think, 150 doors, something like that. And everybody knew the election was coming. Every lefty had gotten their ballot in and was making sure everybody in their life got their ballot in.
It was great. We were in Madison. We were in Milwaukee. A lot of that is just about making sure everybody gets their ballots in. It was reassuring going to the doors. We went to, I think, 150 doors, something like that. And everybody knew the election was coming. Every lefty had gotten their ballot in and was making sure everybody in their life got their ballot in.
That's what we have to do in Wisconsin, so who knows what that means. The other little moment, too, there were just moments of being out there with people that were just so gratifying and inspiring and a reminder that even... That just being among people is good for you and good for the movement. It's good for people to be out there talking to each other.
That's what we have to do in Wisconsin, so who knows what that means. The other little moment, too, there were just moments of being out there with people that were just so gratifying and inspiring and a reminder that even... That just being among people is good for you and good for the movement. It's good for people to be out there talking to each other.
That's what we have to do in Wisconsin, so who knows what that means. The other little moment, too, there were just moments of being out there with people that were just so gratifying and inspiring and a reminder that even... That just being among people is good for you and good for the movement. It's good for people to be out there talking to each other.
Get off your phones, get out of your house. You will feel better about things. Just, you know, you're knocking on doors and you walk by a house and there's just an older woman out there gardening. And she says something like, oh, what are you doing? What are you guys doing? Oh, we're knocking on doors for Judge Crawford. Oh, like, thanks for doing that. We got to help Judge Crawford win.
Get off your phones, get out of your house. You will feel better about things. Just, you know, you're knocking on doors and you walk by a house and there's just an older woman out there gardening. And she says something like, oh, what are you doing? What are you guys doing? Oh, we're knocking on doors for Judge Crawford. Oh, like, thanks for doing that. We got to help Judge Crawford win.
Get off your phones, get out of your house. You will feel better about things. Just, you know, you're knocking on doors and you walk by a house and there's just an older woman out there gardening. And she says something like, oh, what are you doing? What are you guys doing? Oh, we're knocking on doors for Judge Crawford. Oh, like, thanks for doing that. We got to help Judge Crawford win.
And then there's just a moment of like, you know, I can't believe what's happening. You know, I'm like so scared. And you realize that like in our asymmetrical politics, it is completely normal for a Republican politician to just go on television and say that people that live in Madison, Wisconsin are fucking communist anti-American disgraces.
And then there's just a moment of like, you know, I can't believe what's happening. You know, I'm like so scared. And you realize that like in our asymmetrical politics, it is completely normal for a Republican politician to just go on television and say that people that live in Madison, Wisconsin are fucking communist anti-American disgraces.
And then there's just a moment of like, you know, I can't believe what's happening. You know, I'm like so scared. And you realize that like in our asymmetrical politics, it is completely normal for a Republican politician to just go on television and say that people that live in Madison, Wisconsin are fucking communist anti-American disgraces.
And obviously Elizabeth Warren never goes on, on, on air on, on pods of America and starts talking about the rubes down there in Alabama. Right? Like that's not acceptable, but like, it was like, oh, you know, the cities are out of touch.
And obviously Elizabeth Warren never goes on, on, on air on, on pods of America and starts talking about the rubes down there in Alabama. Right? Like that's not acceptable, but like, it was like, oh, you know, the cities are out of touch.
And obviously Elizabeth Warren never goes on, on, on air on, on pods of America and starts talking about the rubes down there in Alabama. Right? Like that's not acceptable, but like, it was like, oh, you know, the cities are out of touch.
What I'm just getting at is like, oh, you know, the liberal enclaves, like we already have them. They're out of touch. Democrats are out of touch with the real people, all that fucking shit. And it's like, okay, yeah, we got to do work. A lot of political work we have to do.
What I'm just getting at is like, oh, you know, the liberal enclaves, like we already have them. They're out of touch. Democrats are out of touch with the real people, all that fucking shit. And it's like, okay, yeah, we got to do work. A lot of political work we have to do.
What I'm just getting at is like, oh, you know, the liberal enclaves, like we already have them. They're out of touch. Democrats are out of touch with the real people, all that fucking shit. And it's like, okay, yeah, we got to do work. A lot of political work we have to do.
But like, can we give some due to the progressives in Madison and Milwaukee that have been doing their best organizing who, if more people voted the way that they wanted people to vote, the country would be a much better place. People that are like scared and worried for their country and really fucking care. Like, yeah, I get it. We have the engaged people. We need to do better than that.
But like, can we give some due to the progressives in Madison and Milwaukee that have been doing their best organizing who, if more people voted the way that they wanted people to vote, the country would be a much better place. People that are like scared and worried for their country and really fucking care. Like, yeah, I get it. We have the engaged people. We need to do better than that.
But like, can we give some due to the progressives in Madison and Milwaukee that have been doing their best organizing who, if more people voted the way that they wanted people to vote, the country would be a much better place. People that are like scared and worried for their country and really fucking care. Like, yeah, I get it. We have the engaged people. We need to do better than that.
Thank God for the engaged people. Thank God for the people paying attention. They're doing the best they can. Just because their votes are assumed and accounted for doesn't mean they don't deserve a little bit of fucking love. We'll leave it there.
Thank God for the engaged people. Thank God for the people paying attention. They're doing the best they can. Just because their votes are assumed and accounted for doesn't mean they don't deserve a little bit of fucking love. We'll leave it there.
Thank God for the engaged people. Thank God for the people paying attention. They're doing the best they can. Just because their votes are assumed and accounted for doesn't mean they don't deserve a little bit of fucking love. We'll leave it there.
Come on.
Come on.
Come on.
I think it's, we went through a bunch, we had other options, but we kept coming back to it. I was a little nervous about having my name in the name of the show, but especially in early 2017, it just felt right.
I think it's, we went through a bunch, we had other options, but we kept coming back to it. I was a little nervous about having my name in the name of the show, but especially in early 2017, it just felt right.
Maybe we'll find out together. So I grew up in New York. I went to Williams College, a small liberal arts college. I studied math. I studied psychology and philosophy. I loved doing math. With math, you can't fake it and you can't almost get it. You either get it or you don't. And I found that it really, I am, you know, I will talk my way out of things. I will try to
Maybe we'll find out together. So I grew up in New York. I went to Williams College, a small liberal arts college. I studied math. I studied psychology and philosophy. I loved doing math. With math, you can't fake it and you can't almost get it. You either get it or you don't. And I found that it really, I am, you know, I will talk my way out of things. I will try to
talk my way into uh like charm my way out of not knowing something and you can't do that in math you have to really understand it and if that logic and rigor really forces you to use your your mind and concentrate and i found it made me smarter and it made me a more critical and precise thinker and i really like that but i was never
talk my way into uh like charm my way out of not knowing something and you can't do that in math you have to really understand it and if that logic and rigor really forces you to use your your mind and concentrate and i found it made me smarter and it made me a more critical and precise thinker and i really like that but i was never
I was always the math student who could give the funniest presentation, but I was never at the level of some of those other kids that went on to become professors.
I was always the math student who could give the funniest presentation, but I was never at the level of some of those other kids that went on to become professors.
I hate that everyone says they hate math, and I don't blame the people who say it because I believe you, I understand why. I'm just not good at it. But see, none of that, there's something fundamentally wrong, this is a conversation for another day, but there's something fundamentally wrong with a society.
I hate that everyone says they hate math, and I don't blame the people who say it because I believe you, I understand why. I'm just not good at it. But see, none of that, there's something fundamentally wrong, this is a conversation for another day, but there's something fundamentally wrong with a society.
As a society, we take kids, they spend more than a decade learning this subject, and most of them get to the end of it saying, I don't like this, I am not good at this. So is everybody wrong? It's the most common thing you ever hear. If you tell people you studied math, it's like, oh, I hate math. I'm not good at math. So every school is getting it wrong.
As a society, we take kids, they spend more than a decade learning this subject, and most of them get to the end of it saying, I don't like this, I am not good at this. So is everybody wrong? It's the most common thing you ever hear. If you tell people you studied math, it's like, oh, I hate math. I'm not good at math. So every school is getting it wrong.
Like every kid in every classroom in front of every teacher, they're all getting it wrong. So something is totally out of whack. I think it would be a better society if everyone got to the end of high school and maybe they learned less math, but they enjoyed it. They got something out of it. They came away with some basic skills.
Like every kid in every classroom in front of every teacher, they're all getting it wrong. So something is totally out of whack. I think it would be a better society if everyone got to the end of high school and maybe they learned less math, but they enjoyed it. They got something out of it. They came away with some basic skills.
It speaks to something important about where we're at right now. And because it's one of those, I don't know anything about baseball. I'm jumping around. I don't know anything about baseball, but I know what baseball bats look like. We all know what baseball bats look like. And then some guy working for the Yankees stares at baseball bats for a year and he says, I think baseball bats are wrong.
It speaks to something important about where we're at right now. And because it's one of those, I don't know anything about baseball. I'm jumping around. I don't know anything about baseball, but I know what baseball bats look like. We all know what baseball bats look like. And then some guy working for the Yankees stares at baseball bats for a year and he says, I think baseball bats are wrong.
I think the little chunky bit should be a little bit further down. And they hit a bunch of home runs.
I think the little chunky bit should be a little bit further down. And they hit a bunch of home runs.
Right. And we have this system where most people come out of math, they won't retain anything. Could you do an algebra equation right now if I put it in front of you?
Right. And we have this system where most people come out of math, they won't retain anything. Could you do an algebra equation right now if I put it in front of you?
And yet, and people are... kind of enumerate in the most important skills that they should have as an adult. The skills that you need to understand investing, taxes, loans, credit cards, come away with none of those skills. Yet kids spend years sitting in front of teachers, watching, looking at graphs and algebra and all the rest. Imagine a math curriculum It would be easy.
And yet, and people are... kind of enumerate in the most important skills that they should have as an adult. The skills that you need to understand investing, taxes, loans, credit cards, come away with none of those skills. Yet kids spend years sitting in front of teachers, watching, looking at graphs and algebra and all the rest. Imagine a math curriculum It would be easy.
Make it fucking easy and make it fun and easy. Whatever you were gonna do for three years, four, whatever you're gonna do, take the first chunk of it, spread it out, spread it out till everyone gets it. And then everyone comes away like, oh, I loved math. It was so much fun. What a better world that would be.
Make it fucking easy and make it fun and easy. Whatever you were gonna do for three years, four, whatever you're gonna do, take the first chunk of it, spread it out, spread it out till everyone gets it. And then everyone comes away like, oh, I loved math. It was so much fun. What a better world that would be.
So I when I graduated from college, I moved to New York. I was a temp paralegal working for those asbestos law firms that you see advertised in the subway. And then at night I was either doing my my law school applications or I was going to open mics. I also was interested in politics. I volunteered for the Kerry campaign in 2004. I really liked that. I was actually enrolled in law school.
So I when I graduated from college, I moved to New York. I was a temp paralegal working for those asbestos law firms that you see advertised in the subway. And then at night I was either doing my my law school applications or I was going to open mics. I also was interested in politics. I volunteered for the Kerry campaign in 2004. I really liked that. I was actually enrolled in law school.
I was doing the open mics. I was working in politics and it was basically luck that a job turned up in politics. And I took that job in politics and ended up deciding not to go to law school.
I was doing the open mics. I was working in politics and it was basically luck that a job turned up in politics. And I took that job in politics and ended up deciding not to go to law school.
I think the truth is... I would have answered this question differently, but the further away I get from it, the more it's clear to me that I really didn't have any kind of conception of what I wanted. I was just deeply insecure and I was looking for a way to get the validation or the bigness to meet my ambition.
I think the truth is... I would have answered this question differently, but the further away I get from it, the more it's clear to me that I really didn't have any kind of conception of what I wanted. I was just deeply insecure and I was looking for a way to get the validation or the bigness to meet my ambition.
And that could have been in comedy, that could have been in law school if I'd gotten into the law school I wanted to go to, that could have been in politics. I think I wasn't, it was... I was really not thinking clearly about what I enjoyed doing, what I cared about in terms of like what my passions were. I was so much more focused on external validation.
And that could have been in comedy, that could have been in law school if I'd gotten into the law school I wanted to go to, that could have been in politics. I think I wasn't, it was... I was really not thinking clearly about what I enjoyed doing, what I cared about in terms of like what my passions were. I was so much more focused on external validation.
And I was able to get some of that via standup, at least, you know, in the kind of cobbled together where you get some laughs at an open mic. I was able to get that in terms of like I had a good LSAT score. I was on the right path to go to a great law school. And then I saw this path in politics. I loved the West Wing and I thought, oh, maybe I'll become a speechwriter, right?
And I was able to get some of that via standup, at least, you know, in the kind of cobbled together where you get some laughs at an open mic. I was able to get that in terms of like I had a good LSAT score. I was on the right path to go to a great law school. And then I saw this path in politics. I loved the West Wing and I thought, oh, maybe I'll become a speechwriter, right?
That was something that was in my mind. And six months after I got this junior position as a press staffer in the Senate, This opportunity came along to be a junior speechwriter for Hillary Clinton. I jumped at it. In part, I was there because I had actually written some jokes for her. She had gone to, was supposed to go to a roast.
That was something that was in my mind. And six months after I got this junior position as a press staffer in the Senate, This opportunity came along to be a junior speechwriter for Hillary Clinton. I jumped at it. In part, I was there because I had actually written some jokes for her. She had gone to, was supposed to go to a roast.
It was the roast of Barbara Walters to raise money for a spina bifida charity.
It was the roast of Barbara Walters to raise money for a spina bifida charity.
They had heard I was working for John Corzine and his Senate office. It's a little, you know, not a lot of funny people on Capitol Hill. People had heard that I had done this barest of stand up careers, amateur. And so they asked if I would write some jokes for Hillary Clinton.
They had heard I was working for John Corzine and his Senate office. It's a little, you know, not a lot of funny people on Capitol Hill. People had heard that I had done this barest of stand up careers, amateur. And so they asked if I would write some jokes for Hillary Clinton.
And so I got on the phone, got on the phone with the Hillary Clinton staff and some of their kind of outside friends who were helping write jokes, one of whom was Al Franken, which was a big deal for me at the time. And it would be a big deal now.
And so I got on the phone, got on the phone with the Hillary Clinton staff and some of their kind of outside friends who were helping write jokes, one of whom was Al Franken, which was a big deal for me at the time. And it would be a big deal now.
No, no, no. It was before he was even... This was when he was just Al Franken, author, comedian, host of Air America Radio. And I wrote some jokes for Hillary Clinton that stuck in their minds. And so I ended up getting a job as a junior speechwriter for Hillary Clinton. And so... It happened very quickly. There were all these different paths.
No, no, no. It was before he was even... This was when he was just Al Franken, author, comedian, host of Air America Radio. And I wrote some jokes for Hillary Clinton that stuck in their minds. And so I ended up getting a job as a junior speechwriter for Hillary Clinton. And so... It happened very quickly. There were all these different paths.
It was a few days after I decided not to go to law school that the opportunity to be the speechwriter for Hillary had come along.
It was a few days after I decided not to go to law school that the opportunity to be the speechwriter for Hillary had come along.
It was haphazard. And... I had enrolled at the University of Chicago Law School. And one of the reasons I allowed it to go on so long as it didn't require a deposit. which they should change. There was no deposit. So I was able to say I was going and it wasn't until I had to email. I think the truth is in my heart, I didn't want to go. I never wanted to go, but it was just the thing to do.
It was haphazard. And... I had enrolled at the University of Chicago Law School. And one of the reasons I allowed it to go on so long as it didn't require a deposit. which they should change. There was no deposit. So I was able to say I was going and it wasn't until I had to email. I think the truth is in my heart, I didn't want to go. I never wanted to go, but it was just the thing to do.
And it was the moment when they required a photo for the student Facebook. I mean, this is getting pretty close to when I would have literally started. I was like, I can't do it. I'm out. I withdrew.
And it was the moment when they required a photo for the student Facebook. I mean, this is getting pretty close to when I would have literally started. I was like, I can't do it. I'm out. I withdrew.
I'm sure it was just, I think that is a little bit my temperament. I think it's a little bit of growing up on Long Island, which is very kind of where I grew up in Syosset at that time. It's very, very... Career driven, what are you going to be when you're going to grow up, get to the good school? It's a very practical place. Long Island's a practical place. And I had been closeted.
I'm sure it was just, I think that is a little bit my temperament. I think it's a little bit of growing up on Long Island, which is very kind of where I grew up in Syosset at that time. It's very, very... Career driven, what are you going to be when you're going to grow up, get to the good school? It's a very practical place. Long Island's a practical place. And I had been closeted.
I had not had a lot of friends. And so I was, I think, searching for the places where I would get the praise and the attention and the validation that I needed.
I had not had a lot of friends. And so I was, I think, searching for the places where I would get the praise and the attention and the validation that I needed.
Yeah, I also, I realize now looking back, and maybe this is the same for you, that it wasn't as though I was choosing one direction over others or that I was afraid of being rebellious or afraid of trying something else. Wouldn't have even occurred to me. Wouldn't have even have occurred to me to defy the kind of direction, right? Which was, you know, do your schoolwork. Law and math.
Yeah, I also, I realize now looking back, and maybe this is the same for you, that it wasn't as though I was choosing one direction over others or that I was afraid of being rebellious or afraid of trying something else. Wouldn't have even occurred to me. Wouldn't have even have occurred to me to defy the kind of direction, right? Which was, you know, do your schoolwork. Law and math.
Get good grades, law, math, right? It was like, I just, I was not... It wasn't that I felt obliged to follow the rules. It wouldn't even have occurred to me.
Get good grades, law, math, right? It was like, I just, I was not... It wasn't that I felt obliged to follow the rules. It wouldn't even have occurred to me.
I'll let you know when I do that.
I'll let you know when I do that.
I never felt like I was taking risks, truthfully. I mean, it didn't feel that way to me. So I get this opportunity to work in politics, so I take the job, I move to D.C. Then I get this opportunity to be a speechwriter for Hillary. I'm doing that for three years. I started working for Hillary Clinton in 2005.
I never felt like I was taking risks, truthfully. I mean, it didn't feel that way to me. So I get this opportunity to work in politics, so I take the job, I move to D.C. Then I get this opportunity to be a speechwriter for Hillary. I'm doing that for three years. I started working for Hillary Clinton in 2005.
This is before anybody had heard of Barack Obama, or had just heard of Barack Obama because he had given the 2004 convention speech, but he wasn't a presidential candidate. She was the figure that was going to go on. And I thought, wow, I'm in this position. I'm going to get to be on this roller coaster. She obviously loses that race in 2008.
This is before anybody had heard of Barack Obama, or had just heard of Barack Obama because he had given the 2004 convention speech, but he wasn't a presidential candidate. She was the figure that was going to go on. And I thought, wow, I'm in this position. I'm going to get to be on this roller coaster. She obviously loses that race in 2008.
And then all of a sudden, I get this chance to apply to be a speechwriter at the White House working for President Obama. I apply. I get that job. I would say maybe the biggest risk I took in that time, I suppose not going to law school was betting on politics and taking a chance, but the biggest risk I took was after three years of being a speechwriter.
And then all of a sudden, I get this chance to apply to be a speechwriter at the White House working for President Obama. I apply. I get that job. I would say maybe the biggest risk I took in that time, I suppose not going to law school was betting on politics and taking a chance, but the biggest risk I took was after three years of being a speechwriter.
Right, it just didn't make sense. Exactly. And it wasn't as though I had a job in politics. And so... When I decided to leave being a presidential speechwriter to come out to LA to be a comedy writer and stand up, that felt like I was finally making a choice. And I had felt this pressure
Right, it just didn't make sense. Exactly. And it wasn't as though I had a job in politics. And so... When I decided to leave being a presidential speechwriter to come out to LA to be a comedy writer and stand up, that felt like I was finally making a choice. And I had felt this pressure
and this is what I mean by kind of being driven a bit too much by insecurity, I had this realization that, and now it sounds ridiculous to me, 11, 12 years later, which is I had just turned 29 and I had this, feeling that if I didn't leave and try comedy right now, I would never have been a young standup. I would never have done it. And so I had to get out before I turned 30.
and this is what I mean by kind of being driven a bit too much by insecurity, I had this realization that, and now it sounds ridiculous to me, 11, 12 years later, which is I had just turned 29 and I had this, feeling that if I didn't leave and try comedy right now, I would never have been a young standup. I would never have done it. And so I had to get out before I turned 30.
I set this artificial deadline and I left and I moved to LA. And I didn't have any money. I had just a junior speechwriter salary from the government.
I set this artificial deadline and I left and I moved to LA. And I didn't have any money. I had just a junior speechwriter salary from the government.
And so because I had this pedigree, I'd been working on both serious speeches for President Obama, and I did a lot of his comedy writing when he did the White House Correspondents' Dinners, which he'd gotten a lot of praise for, that had given me the credibility to get a blind script deal out in LA. A studio was willing to say, hey,
And so because I had this pedigree, I'd been working on both serious speeches for President Obama, and I did a lot of his comedy writing when he did the White House Correspondents' Dinners, which he'd gotten a lot of praise for, that had given me the credibility to get a blind script deal out in LA. A studio was willing to say, hey,
you have this interesting background, we'll give you the money to write a script. And that was the kind of bridge to get me to move to LA. And I thought I was going to come out here, learn how to be a screenwriter, do stand up again. I did a little bit when I moved out here.
you have this interesting background, we'll give you the money to write a script. And that was the kind of bridge to get me to move to LA. And I thought I was going to come out here, learn how to be a screenwriter, do stand up again. I did a little bit when I moved out here.
And anyone listening to this, I know it's going to sound obnoxious. I moved to L.A. and The first, before I'd even had any sense of what I was going to do, this Josh Gad, who was then in Book of Mormon, Jason Weiner, who had directed the pilot of Miter and Family, they had been kicking around this idea for a White House show. They knew that I had worked in the White House.
And anyone listening to this, I know it's going to sound obnoxious. I moved to L.A. and The first, before I'd even had any sense of what I was going to do, this Josh Gad, who was then in Book of Mormon, Jason Weiner, who had directed the pilot of Miter and Family, they had been kicking around this idea for a White House show. They knew that I had worked in the White House.
So we got together and we developed this pitch for Josh Gad to play this ne'er-do-well son of a president. And it just worked and NBC wanted it. And so within days, days of moving to LA, I was basically working on this pilot that was like a fast moving train. It was just happening.
So we got together and we developed this pitch for Josh Gad to play this ne'er-do-well son of a president. And it just worked and NBC wanted it. And so within days, days of moving to LA, I was basically working on this pilot that was like a fast moving train. It was just happening.
And so dream project, it was a, I was so like my, my, my like imagination didn't have time to catch up to what was happening before I'd even gotten my bearings about what I would even want to do. I was working on a, on a pilot that was going to shoot. I had never written a pilot before. So I was forget like a dream. I was overwhelmed. I was completely overwhelmed
And so dream project, it was a, I was so like my, my, my like imagination didn't have time to catch up to what was happening before I'd even gotten my bearings about what I would even want to do. I was working on a, on a pilot that was going to shoot. I had never written a pilot before. So I was forget like a dream. I was overwhelmed. I was completely overwhelmed
Yes. I had no... I... I am now 42, I was 29 at that time. I look back on those different portions of my career with a lot more generosity and forgiveness toward myself. I remember feeling so overwhelmed and like a failure when I was a speechwriter for Hillary. But of course I felt that way. I was 24 years old. I had no idea what I was doing.
Yes. I had no... I... I am now 42, I was 29 at that time. I look back on those different portions of my career with a lot more generosity and forgiveness toward myself. I remember feeling so overwhelmed and like a failure when I was a speechwriter for Hillary. But of course I felt that way. I was 24 years old. I had no idea what I was doing.
And then I get out to LA, again, I am in this completely new field. working on my script, I have no idea. I'm like learning. I'm trying to read other people's scripts. I'm getting feedback from people. This is going to be on television. I've never written anything like this before.
And then I get out to LA, again, I am in this completely new field. working on my script, I have no idea. I'm like learning. I'm trying to read other people's scripts. I'm getting feedback from people. This is going to be on television. I've never written anything like this before.
I was an imposter. No, no. For a 1600 pen, imposter. I could fake it till I made it. I learned a lot. I could get through it. But it never... It was fun and it was exciting, but part of what it required was a lot of pretend and having a lot of opinions that I truly felt, but that were meant to mask the fact that if people knew how unsure I was, like the whole thing would collapse on itself.
I was an imposter. No, no. For a 1600 pen, imposter. I could fake it till I made it. I learned a lot. I could get through it. But it never... It was fun and it was exciting, but part of what it required was a lot of pretend and having a lot of opinions that I truly felt, but that were meant to mask the fact that if people knew how unsure I was, like the whole thing would collapse on itself.
There was a moment where... they had, because it was my first time working on a show, they had brought in an outside writer to do a rewrite of the pilot. He had a different sensibility. It just didn't work. And so now we're like days away from shooting and I'm just in this script trying to fix it. I've never done any of this before.
There was a moment where... they had, because it was my first time working on a show, they had brought in an outside writer to do a rewrite of the pilot. He had a different sensibility. It just didn't work. And so now we're like days away from shooting and I'm just in this script trying to fix it. I've never done any of this before.
We ended up and figuring it out with Jason and with Josh and with some help from some other writers. But it was a very, it was, it was more stressful than it was exciting.
We ended up and figuring it out with Jason and with Josh and with some help from some other writers. But it was a very, it was, it was more stressful than it was exciting.
It was highs and lows. Like I loved being on set. I loved pitching jokes. I also feel really like, one of the parts of 600 Penn I'm the most proud of is we assembled an amazing group of writers. And the way we did it is I just read every script that came in. I treat it like a normal interview.
It was highs and lows. Like I loved being on set. I loved pitching jokes. I also feel really like, one of the parts of 600 Penn I'm the most proud of is we assembled an amazing group of writers. And the way we did it is I just read every script that came in. I treat it like a normal interview.
And so I read a ton of material and that was a group of people, they've all gone on to be incredibly successful. And I feel proud of that because I feel like I was, I had a good eye for this great group of people, all of whom have now really succeeded. And I, again, similar to, we talked about it before recording that I felt like, you know what? I'm new here. I don't know what I'm doing.
And so I read a ton of material and that was a group of people, they've all gone on to be incredibly successful. And I feel proud of that because I feel like I was, I had a good eye for this great group of people, all of whom have now really succeeded. And I, again, similar to, we talked about it before recording that I felt like, you know what? I'm new here. I don't know what I'm doing.
I may at times not handle that perfectly. But you know what? Push comes to shove. I'm a great joke writer. And I can take the material that's coming in. I can figure out what's good and what's not, both for hiring writers, but also in terms of what were the scripts we're producing. And I'm like really bringing value here. And there's a reason I'm here. And I'm making this project better.
I may at times not handle that perfectly. But you know what? Push comes to shove. I'm a great joke writer. And I can take the material that's coming in. I can figure out what's good and what's not, both for hiring writers, but also in terms of what were the scripts we're producing. And I'm like really bringing value here. And there's a reason I'm here. And I'm making this project better.
And that felt rewarding. That felt like, okay, I belong here.
And that felt rewarding. That felt like, okay, I belong here.
I don't know. We'd have to start a pretty long list. No, I don't know. I feel... I think being a speechwriter, you don't have to be the best at anything, but you have to be competent or good at a lot of things. You have to have a good kind of sense of politics. You have to be a good writer. You have to be able to synthesize a bunch of different points of view and inputs, and you have to have
I don't know. We'd have to start a pretty long list. No, I don't know. I feel... I think being a speechwriter, you don't have to be the best at anything, but you have to be competent or good at a lot of things. You have to have a good kind of sense of politics. You have to be a good writer. You have to be able to synthesize a bunch of different points of view and inputs, and you have to have
the ability to know when to say yes but or to say no but to an edit, a change, a suggestion. And you also have to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes. You have to be able to say, all right, my job here, you know, people would always ask me like, oh, you know, you were gay and this was before politicians were in favor of gay marriage, that must have been hard.
the ability to know when to say yes but or to say no but to an edit, a change, a suggestion. And you also have to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes. You have to be able to say, all right, my job here, you know, people would always ask me like, oh, you know, you were gay and this was before politicians were in favor of gay marriage, that must have been hard.
And the truth is it wasn't that hard because I never thought of my job as using speeches as a vehicle for expressing my opinions. My job was to inhabit the views and experiences and voice of a different person. And so that was a big part of it. But I think those skills
And the truth is it wasn't that hard because I never thought of my job as using speeches as a vehicle for expressing my opinions. My job was to inhabit the views and experiences and voice of a different person. And so that was a big part of it. But I think those skills
One of the places where I brought, I think, a comparative advantage is, yeah, I had that ability, but I also like, I can write a great joke. I can. And I'm a fast writer too. And I felt like those two things together were part of my success as a speech writer and then as a comedy writer.
One of the places where I brought, I think, a comparative advantage is, yeah, I had that ability, but I also like, I can write a great joke. I can. And I'm a fast writer too. And I felt like those two things together were part of my success as a speech writer and then as a comedy writer.
You know, we get a ton of material in Wednesday night. I start editing it, kind of make your way across a ton of material. Some of that's writing, some of that's editing, some of that's reading the news and figuring out what happened, how you want to talk about it. Some of it is then jumping around. We have, you know, Let's say we have Tig Notaro and her wife on the show, Stephanie Allen.
You know, we get a ton of material in Wednesday night. I start editing it, kind of make your way across a ton of material. Some of that's writing, some of that's editing, some of that's reading the news and figuring out what happened, how you want to talk about it. Some of it is then jumping around. We have, you know, Let's say we have Tig Notaro and her wife on the show, Stephanie Allen.
We want to figure out that segment, or we have a bunch of other guests that are coming on. What are we going to do with those guests? Thinking about that, and you're getting pulled in a bunch of different directions. it takes a long time to go through a ton of material. And you're also kind of going over it and going over it again.
We want to figure out that segment, or we have a bunch of other guests that are coming on. What are we going to do with those guests? Thinking about that, and you're getting pulled in a bunch of different directions. it takes a long time to go through a ton of material. And you're also kind of going over it and going over it again.
Yeah, and I think also like just sort of coming up with a ton of different punchlines and just sort of going through it relatively quickly. The... When I talk about being a fast writer though, I'm more mean like there were moments where you need a fast statement for the president to deliver about the Dow dropping or- Oh, I see what you're saying.
Yeah, and I think also like just sort of coming up with a ton of different punchlines and just sort of going through it relatively quickly. The... When I talk about being a fast writer though, I'm more mean like there were moments where you need a fast statement for the president to deliver about the Dow dropping or- Oh, I see what you're saying.
Or the show is in an hour, we need three new punchlines for this or you're on set and you're trying to figure out how to make a scene work. Those are the moments where I feel like, you know what? I can come up with something pretty quick that'll work.
Or the show is in an hour, we need three new punchlines for this or you're on set and you're trying to figure out how to make a scene work. Those are the moments where I feel like, you know what? I can come up with something pretty quick that'll work.
Never. I don't do that. I don't – it's never – I've never thought that far ahead. Opportunities come, you take advantage of them. You know, I had this chance to be a speechwriter, I took it, made the most of it. Had this opportunity to come out to LA and be a TV writer, I took it. You just grab opportunities or... But crooked media...
Never. I don't do that. I don't – it's never – I've never thought that far ahead. Opportunities come, you take advantage of them. You know, I had this chance to be a speechwriter, I took it, made the most of it. Had this opportunity to come out to LA and be a TV writer, I took it. You just grab opportunities or... But crooked media...
So I was a speechwriter for Hillary, speechwriter for Obama, TV writer, did 1600 Penn, wrote some pilots, worked on the newsroom. But there was this pull to politics that I did feel throughout that time. and this is where I sort of would land on in terms of like the biggest chance I took, the biggest risk I took was Crooked Media.
So I was a speechwriter for Hillary, speechwriter for Obama, TV writer, did 1600 Penn, wrote some pilots, worked on the newsroom. But there was this pull to politics that I did feel throughout that time. and this is where I sort of would land on in terms of like the biggest chance I took, the biggest risk I took was Crooked Media.
And it was after Trump had won, we had been doing this podcast for The Ringer that had garnered some success. A podcast that you didn't intend to continue, right? Probably not. We really hadn't thought that far ahead. We were doing it through the election. But I remember after Trump won, the next day we had to do this live stream. We were driving.
And it was after Trump had won, we had been doing this podcast for The Ringer that had garnered some success. A podcast that you didn't intend to continue, right? Probably not. We really hadn't thought that far ahead. We were doing it through the election. But I remember after Trump won, the next day we had to do this live stream. We were driving.
It was Jon Favreau, Tommy Vitor, and I were driving in my car to the Sunset Gower lot to do this live stream. My car ran out of gas. We pushed to the side of the road in front of the CNN building where a bunch of people were watching CNN and Trump accepting his victory. And we walked to the studio talking about
It was Jon Favreau, Tommy Vitor, and I were driving in my car to the Sunset Gower lot to do this live stream. My car ran out of gas. We pushed to the side of the road in front of the CNN building where a bunch of people were watching CNN and Trump accepting his victory. And we walked to the studio talking about
what we would do now, none of us felt like what we wanted to do was go back to our day jobs. We really wanted to figure out how to focus on this. And we thought, well, we have this podcast, let's see if we can turn a podcast into something bigger. And we started hatching this idea for Crooked Media. We didn't have the name, we didn't have really any idea of what it would be.
what we would do now, none of us felt like what we wanted to do was go back to our day jobs. We really wanted to figure out how to focus on this. And we thought, well, we have this podcast, let's see if we can turn a podcast into something bigger. And we started hatching this idea for Crooked Media. We didn't have the name, we didn't have really any idea of what it would be.
That's a good question. I don't think it was as reflective as all that. I think it was a feeling like we have to do something and less about what it would be and more about what we realized we didn't want to do, right? That we didn't feel like what we were, we were certainly not inspired to go back to, you know, they had a communications consultancy. I was a TV writer, which I loved doing, but
That's a good question. I don't think it was as reflective as all that. I think it was a feeling like we have to do something and less about what it would be and more about what we realized we didn't want to do, right? That we didn't feel like what we were, we were certainly not inspired to go back to, you know, they had a communications consultancy. I was a TV writer, which I loved doing, but
there was this feeling like, no, we should put our energies into this moment. Trump winning is such a calamity on so many different levels. It is a representation of so much failure. And there was an urgency in that moment. And I had had some we all had at that point enough success that we had a little bit of wiggle room, right?
there was this feeling like, no, we should put our energies into this moment. Trump winning is such a calamity on so many different levels. It is a representation of so much failure. And there was an urgency in that moment. And I had had some we all had at that point enough success that we had a little bit of wiggle room, right?
That we could start something and have say six months to see what would happen. And so that gave us the space to think, what could we make? And we started thinking about what the podcast would be called. We started thinking about what the company would be called. We really didn't have much. We knew we were gonna start with podcasts. We knew it would be a media network.
That we could start something and have say six months to see what would happen. And so that gave us the space to think, what could we make? And we started thinking about what the podcast would be called. We started thinking about what the company would be called. We really didn't have much. We knew we were gonna start with podcasts. We knew it would be a media network.
The core idea was that there needed to be, there were activist groups and there were some left-leaning media organizations, but those two things were not intertwined. And what the right had and still has, it's only gotten worse, is they had media that is 100% bought into their political project. Fox News exists to hurt Democrats and help Republicans.
The core idea was that there needed to be, there were activist groups and there were some left-leaning media organizations, but those two things were not intertwined. And what the right had and still has, it's only gotten worse, is they had media that is 100% bought into their political project. Fox News exists to hurt Democrats and help Republicans.
Now, we didn't ever want to make something that was as dishonest, that felt like propaganda, that was unwilling to criticize our own side. But we did want to create a media company that said, hey, we are... that we believe democracy is under attack right now. We are a pro-democracy media company unabashed in that point of view, and we welcome anybody who wants to be a part of that.
Now, we didn't ever want to make something that was as dishonest, that felt like propaganda, that was unwilling to criticize our own side. But we did want to create a media company that said, hey, we are... that we believe democracy is under attack right now. We are a pro-democracy media company unabashed in that point of view, and we welcome anybody who wants to be a part of that.
And we're not just going to treat people like observers the way mainstream media does, like kind of that treats the viewers as if they're aliens watching the United States from spaceships, we're going to remind everyone that they are participants and that it's not a game, there are real stakes, and we all have agency.
And we're not just going to treat people like observers the way mainstream media does, like kind of that treats the viewers as if they're aliens watching the United States from spaceships, we're going to remind everyone that they are participants and that it's not a game, there are real stakes, and we all have agency.
Anger is my motivation. I'm not a hope guy. I'm an anger guy. I'm motivated by anger. Always have been. I find that it's what I'm at my bravest and most interesting. So there's been something. Nothing's bothered me more. No, a lot of things bother me more. But one thing that has bothered me over the years is when someone says, like, I'm just looking for a politician who inspires me.
Anger is my motivation. I'm not a hope guy. I'm an anger guy. I'm motivated by anger. Always have been. I find that it's what I'm at my bravest and most interesting. So there's been something. Nothing's bothered me more. No, a lot of things bother me more. But one thing that has bothered me over the years is when someone says, like, I'm just looking for a politician who inspires me.
And it's a real misunderstanding of what politics is and what it's for. I view inspiration as a valuable tool. It is important that politicians, the political figures, that leaders be inspiring. Inspiration has great value. It helps people change their perspective. It helps people broaden their perspective.
And it's a real misunderstanding of what politics is and what it's for. I view inspiration as a valuable tool. It is important that politicians, the political figures, that leaders be inspiring. Inspiration has great value. It helps people change their perspective. It helps people broaden their perspective.
It helps people imagine themselves taking actions or being part of a movement they might not otherwise be. That's what inspiration does. It has political value. But you, as a person watching, a speech saying I need to be inspired, what does that mean? It means you know what the right thing is, but you need someone to tug at your heartstrings to get you to do it.
It helps people imagine themselves taking actions or being part of a movement they might not otherwise be. That's what inspiration does. It has political value. But you, as a person watching, a speech saying I need to be inspired, what does that mean? It means you know what the right thing is, but you need someone to tug at your heartstrings to get you to do it.
If you are saying you need to be inspired, then you already understand the delta between what you're currently doing and what you believe you should be doing. So you actually don't need inspiration. And it is the kind of end result of several decades of political punditry that treats everybody watching like they are fully cognizant, fully informed observers who can't be persuaded.
If you are saying you need to be inspired, then you already understand the delta between what you're currently doing and what you believe you should be doing. So you actually don't need inspiration. And it is the kind of end result of several decades of political punditry that treats everybody watching like they are fully cognizant, fully informed observers who can't be persuaded.
It has changed the way people think and talk about politics. They no longer say, here's what I believe, here's what I want. They say, here's what I think works. Here's what I think that's a bad look. Here's what I think that's bad politics. And so for me, I personally don't need inspiration from politicians.
It has changed the way people think and talk about politics. They no longer say, here's what I believe, here's what I want. They say, here's what I think works. Here's what I think that's a bad look. Here's what I think that's bad politics. And so for me, I personally don't need inspiration from politicians.
I need them to have it to persuade others, but I am not in this to feel any kind of warm and fuzzy feelings.
I need them to have it to persuade others, but I am not in this to feel any kind of warm and fuzzy feelings.
I'm not sure. I don't think. I like to think I've moved beyond that. I think it's more not... I have found it fruitful in my life to not think of a career as a very long path, but as just a series of discrete decisions. And you make those decisions as best you can in the moment you see where you land.
I'm not sure. I don't think. I like to think I've moved beyond that. I think it's more not... I have found it fruitful in my life to not think of a career as a very long path, but as just a series of discrete decisions. And you make those decisions as best you can in the moment you see where you land.
And then from there, you'll have gained new experience, new wisdom, new insight, and more knowledge from which you can make the next decision. But I have never thought of it as a path more like you're kind of going from these islands, these little sort of staging grounds to take and looking too far ahead, I think is not particularly valuable for me, for me.
And then from there, you'll have gained new experience, new wisdom, new insight, and more knowledge from which you can make the next decision. But I have never thought of it as a path more like you're kind of going from these islands, these little sort of staging grounds to take and looking too far ahead, I think is not particularly valuable for me, for me.
Maybe that's just a reflection of undiagnosed ADHD that the idea of thinking three or four moves ahead seems impossible. So I'm just trying to get to the next stop.
Maybe that's just a reflection of undiagnosed ADHD that the idea of thinking three or four moves ahead seems impossible. So I'm just trying to get to the next stop.
What a funny – very – that's a very Barbara Walters in the 90s type question.
What a funny – very – that's a very Barbara Walters in the 90s type question.
Uh, I am lucky, uh, uh, to be, I'm, I'm very curious. I don't find myself, I find myself interested in the ways in which, uh, we've done things for a long time a certain way without really much of a reason. And I find myself looking for those seams. Sometimes that's right, sometimes that's wrong. I think that my kind of, floating around has been really good for me.
Uh, I am lucky, uh, uh, to be, I'm, I'm very curious. I don't find myself, I find myself interested in the ways in which, uh, we've done things for a long time a certain way without really much of a reason. And I find myself looking for those seams. Sometimes that's right, sometimes that's wrong. I think that my kind of, floating around has been really good for me.
I've gotten to have this incredibly varied career, right? Like I ended up, you know, when I was a math student, I ended up publishing a math paper. I go into politics. I have this incredible speech writing, short but incredible speech writing career. I had success as a television writer, and now I've had success with Crooked and with Pod Save America and with Love It or Leave It.
I've gotten to have this incredibly varied career, right? Like I ended up, you know, when I was a math student, I ended up publishing a math paper. I go into politics. I have this incredible speech writing, short but incredible speech writing career. I had success as a television writer, and now I've had success with Crooked and with Pod Save America and with Love It or Leave It.
And I feel like that I was very fortunate that the fact that I'm able to kind of, that like I get curious and interested and intense about a certain idea or a certain project and I can really focus on that and then kind of can fully switch gears. Like I've been really rewarded for that, but I do, I do think I've paid a price for not being able to quiet that noise.
And I feel like that I was very fortunate that the fact that I'm able to kind of, that like I get curious and interested and intense about a certain idea or a certain project and I can really focus on that and then kind of can fully switch gears. Like I've been really rewarded for that, but I do, I do think I've paid a price for not being able to quiet that noise.
And there've been times in my life where I have not been able to really drill down and get something right. Like I had this pilot for a drama, it was called Anthem. It was set up at Showtime. It was about an American election. falls into chaos because both sides declare victory and I was writing that in 2014 2015 like it was a head I was like I was I had and I just couldn't get it right and I like
And there've been times in my life where I have not been able to really drill down and get something right. Like I had this pilot for a drama, it was called Anthem. It was set up at Showtime. It was about an American election. falls into chaos because both sides declare victory and I was writing that in 2014 2015 like it was a head I was like I was I had and I just couldn't get it right and I like
And the struggle of that, I would just get pulled in a bunch of different directions and like kind of put it aside, come back to it, put it aside, come back to it. And I wasn't really able to give it the attention and focus, sustained attention and focus that could have made it a great show. And I feel like I not only let myself down, I let the people down who bet on it.
And the struggle of that, I would just get pulled in a bunch of different directions and like kind of put it aside, come back to it, put it aside, come back to it. And I wasn't really able to give it the attention and focus, sustained attention and focus that could have made it a great show. And I feel like I not only let myself down, I let the people down who bet on it.
And there are smaller examples of that, but I think that's the price.
And there are smaller examples of that, but I think that's the price.
Look, I get to do the fact that I had this comedy experience, I had this writing experience, I had this political speech writing experience, and it all coalesces into what I get to do now. That's the great luck of my life. I'm very fortunate. And I love a lot of what I do. I get stressed out about a lot of what I do.
Look, I get to do the fact that I had this comedy experience, I had this writing experience, I had this political speech writing experience, and it all coalesces into what I get to do now. That's the great luck of my life. I'm very fortunate. And I love a lot of what I do. I get stressed out about a lot of what I do.
The times I beat myself up a little is when you get frustrated or annoyed or impatient and you're like, Things are good. In terms of where you are in your career, things are good. Things are happening in the country are a nightmare, but you are where you're supposed to be. You should feel very fortunate. You should feel very grateful.
The times I beat myself up a little is when you get frustrated or annoyed or impatient and you're like, Things are good. In terms of where you are in your career, things are good. Things are happening in the country are a nightmare, but you are where you're supposed to be. You should feel very fortunate. You should feel very grateful.
You shouldn't lose sight of that, even in moments when life is tense.
You shouldn't lose sight of that, even in moments when life is tense.
Same. I'm saying that's what I should be doing. I completely agree. Completely the same. But I do think for me, the the pandemic was obvious, like there's. There's this F. Scott Fitzgerald series of essays called The Crackup. Have you heard of The Crackup? I have not. F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote this collection. It's now a collection.
Same. I'm saying that's what I should be doing. I completely agree. Completely the same. But I do think for me, the the pandemic was obvious, like there's. There's this F. Scott Fitzgerald series of essays called The Crackup. Have you heard of The Crackup? I have not. F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote this collection. It's now a collection.
I think it was in three parts at the time, but you can get it as one very short book or long article. And it's an interesting document because He doesn't have the terms for, I don't know what you would call it, manic depressive, bipolar, addiction, whatever. But he is sorting through and describing how he is living. And he's describing deep depression, manic episodes, whatever.
I think it was in three parts at the time, but you can get it as one very short book or long article. And it's an interesting document because He doesn't have the terms for, I don't know what you would call it, manic depressive, bipolar, addiction, whatever. But he is sorting through and describing how he is living. And he's describing deep depression, manic episodes, whatever.
And he's writing in the middle of it, which is something strange, right? You just don't normally see that. And he talks about being what is, I think, just clinical depression, sleeping all day. And he's writing lists to occupy his mind. And one of the lists is times in which he was snubbed by those who are not his better in character or ability, which I always think about.
And he's writing in the middle of it, which is something strange, right? You just don't normally see that. And he talks about being what is, I think, just clinical depression, sleeping all day. And he's writing lists to occupy his mind. And one of the lists is times in which he was snubbed by those who are not his better in character or ability, which I always think about.
But isn't that a great line, right?
But isn't that a great line, right?
Making a list of it. I couldn't think of anything more Los Angeles than that. But he talks about feeling quite comfortable in that mode of living. And then he says, and then I got a little better and I crack like a plate when I heard the news. And for me, the pandemic brought me low enough that it gave me the chance to get a little better and crack like a plate when I heard the news.
Making a list of it. I couldn't think of anything more Los Angeles than that. But he talks about feeling quite comfortable in that mode of living. And then he says, and then I got a little better and I crack like a plate when I heard the news. And for me, the pandemic brought me low enough that it gave me the chance to get a little better and crack like a plate when I heard the news.
I made a lot of changes in my life after. Um, uh, a more than a decade long relationship ended. I, over the course of the pandemic had become a little too comfortable using, uh, an edible at the end of the day to avoid thinking about the problems I wanted to delay one day, which I did over and over and over again. And it led me to, uh,
I made a lot of changes in my life after. Um, uh, a more than a decade long relationship ended. I, over the course of the pandemic had become a little too comfortable using, uh, an edible at the end of the day to avoid thinking about the problems I wanted to delay one day, which I did over and over and over again. And it led me to, uh,
I think change a bit how I think about what I do, how I do it, and to try to find, to try to think less about what I want to be and more about what I want to be doing and to try to take a bit more joy in it. And I do think that was the end of like, what was, I think I'm always a person that's prone to being a little bit depressed, but getting a bit lower helped me see the need to get a bit higher.
I think change a bit how I think about what I do, how I do it, and to try to find, to try to think less about what I want to be and more about what I want to be doing and to try to take a bit more joy in it. And I do think that was the end of like, what was, I think I'm always a person that's prone to being a little bit depressed, but getting a bit lower helped me see the need to get a bit higher.
And I think after that, I've been on this ramp up, and I feel like I am still living in the kind of noisy chaotic way I always have but I'm a little bit more I have a little bit more generosity with myself I think I'm a better friend I think I'm better at my job and I think I'm just a little bit, uh, wiser at the end of that. I'm sure I will look back on this and feel like I've still got plenty.
And I think after that, I've been on this ramp up, and I feel like I am still living in the kind of noisy chaotic way I always have but I'm a little bit more I have a little bit more generosity with myself I think I'm a better friend I think I'm better at my job and I think I'm just a little bit, uh, wiser at the end of that. I'm sure I will look back on this and feel like I've still got plenty.
I had more, plenty of, plenty of place to grow. Still not kind enough to yourself? I don't think so. Yeah, no, I don't think so. Um, it's more too about like, maybe you feel this too, which is like, as you get older, um, kind of understanding the distinction between here are the places where I would like to be better, right? And kind of address some of these issues.
I had more, plenty of, plenty of place to grow. Still not kind enough to yourself? I don't think so. Yeah, no, I don't think so. Um, it's more too about like, maybe you feel this too, which is like, as you get older, um, kind of understanding the distinction between here are the places where I would like to be better, right? And kind of address some of these issues.
And then here are the areas where, you know what? That's just fucking me. That's what I'm like, you know, that's it. And this is cooked. This part, this part, this part's cooked all the way through.
And then here are the areas where, you know what? That's just fucking me. That's what I'm like, you know, that's it. And this is cooked. This part, this part, this part's cooked all the way through.
Well, you know, this sort of in a kind of like self-help culture, I think too often, right? Like it's hard because some of us do have, we all have to change, right? Like it's like, you have to, you have to understand the ways in which you need to be working on yourself. You need to be growing. You need to not feel like you're done.
Well, you know, this sort of in a kind of like self-help culture, I think too often, right? Like it's hard because some of us do have, we all have to change, right? Like it's like, you have to, you have to understand the ways in which you need to be working on yourself. You need to be growing. You need to not feel like you're done.
And for me too, it's like a happy... hot, happy, really good relationship has been helpful. Honestly, it's strange to say, but Manjaro, going on Manjaro has taken a big source of my self-loathing. Did you have body image issues? Tons still do. That was, that... a huge problem for me, huge, huge. Yeah, I've had them all my life.
And for me too, it's like a happy... hot, happy, really good relationship has been helpful. Honestly, it's strange to say, but Manjaro, going on Manjaro has taken a big source of my self-loathing. Did you have body image issues? Tons still do. That was, that... a huge problem for me, huge, huge. Yeah, I've had them all my life.
And I remember when I was talking to my therapist about it and she was really funny. She was like, you're gonna go on this thing and all the ways in which you kind of obsessively self-criticized, you're just gonna find some new avenue, right? Let's say you go on this drug and it helps you lose a whole bunch of weight. You're not gonna stop finding ways to criticize yourself.
And I remember when I was talking to my therapist about it and she was really funny. She was like, you're gonna go on this thing and all the ways in which you kind of obsessively self-criticized, you're just gonna find some new avenue, right? Let's say you go on this drug and it helps you lose a whole bunch of weight. You're not gonna stop finding ways to criticize yourself.
And I was like, maybe not, let's find out. And the truth is like, the truth is it's somewhere in the middle, right? Like it, no, of course it- It's pessimistic. Well, but it is. Of your therapist, I'm saying. Well, she was her concern. It was like, hey, we should, she was not against my going on it. It was more, hey, like go on it, don't go on it, but we still have to do the work.
And I was like, maybe not, let's find out. And the truth is like, the truth is it's somewhere in the middle, right? Like it, no, of course it- It's pessimistic. Well, but it is. Of your therapist, I'm saying. Well, she was her concern. It was like, hey, we should, she was not against my going on it. It was more, hey, like go on it, don't go on it, but we still have to do the work.
Like this isn't gonna address the work, which is correct. And I actually like made a chart and was like, okay, We have this much self-criticism about everything that's not my body. And we have this much about my body. If we lower this by 50%, this will go up, but probably not in equal measure. And I think we'll net out. We're going to net out with less self-criticism. Absolutely.
Like this isn't gonna address the work, which is correct. And I actually like made a chart and was like, okay, We have this much self-criticism about everything that's not my body. And we have this much about my body. If we lower this by 50%, this will go up, but probably not in equal measure. And I think we'll net out. We're going to net out with less self-criticism. Absolutely.
There's all kinds of ways in which people, this is- The math is useful there. So here, I'll give you, here's one, I'll give you, this is one, which is, okay, I want you to imagine, okay, an X and a Y. On the Y, we have gregariousness. I'm sorry, on the X, we have gregariousness. on the why we have charisma, okay? Gregariousness at the bottom, charisma going up and down.
There's all kinds of ways in which people, this is- The math is useful there. So here, I'll give you, here's one, I'll give you, this is one, which is, okay, I want you to imagine, okay, an X and a Y. On the Y, we have gregariousness. I'm sorry, on the X, we have gregariousness. on the why we have charisma, okay? Gregariousness at the bottom, charisma going up and down.
There's a diagonal line that runs from the bottom all the way to the top. When you are below that line, you are more gregarious than you are charismatic. you're annoying. When you're above that line, you're more charismatic than you are gregarious. You're exciting and enticing to be around.
There's a diagonal line that runs from the bottom all the way to the top. When you are below that line, you are more gregarious than you are charismatic. you're annoying. When you're above that line, you're more charismatic than you are gregarious. You're exciting and enticing to be around.
If you are extremely charming, okay, extremely charging, but very low gregariousness, you're extremely cool because you're just not giving it out. Right? Right. If you're extremely gregarious, but not at all charming, you're a bore. And what you want to do in your life is stay below the cool bore line. Above the core borderline.
If you are extremely charming, okay, extremely charging, but very low gregariousness, you're extremely cool because you're just not giving it out. Right? Right. If you're extremely gregarious, but not at all charming, you're a bore. And what you want to do in your life is stay below the cool bore line. Above the core borderline.
You want to be above that line.
You want to be above that line.
Well, there is that challenge. That is challenge. I remember when we were making 1600 Pen, Josh, between the pilot and the shooting, he was like, he lost a bunch of weight. And we were always joking that he's lost, he lost like 15 pounds of hilarious. It's unbelievable. The hilarious is all, it's falling off of you.
Well, there is that challenge. That is challenge. I remember when we were making 1600 Pen, Josh, between the pilot and the shooting, he was like, he lost a bunch of weight. And we were always joking that he's lost, he lost like 15 pounds of hilarious. It's unbelievable. The hilarious is all, it's falling off of you.
Yeah. So we so I do think it was a risk. We had some runway, but it was a risk. I think we were fortunate in that we weren't like, it wasn't that what we were doing is leaving jobs that we couldn't get back to start a media company. We were taking a break from the careers that we had, which we could return to. But nonetheless, we had a mission statement
Yeah. So we so I do think it was a risk. We had some runway, but it was a risk. I think we were fortunate in that we weren't like, it wasn't that what we were doing is leaving jobs that we couldn't get back to start a media company. We were taking a break from the careers that we had, which we could return to. But nonetheless, we had a mission statement
We had a core set of goals and values and we knew what it should feel like. We didn't have a business plan. We really didn't know anything about what it would take or what it would look like.
We had a core set of goals and values and we knew what it should feel like. We didn't have a business plan. We really didn't know anything about what it would take or what it would look like.
And we were... we realized we were where we got luckiest is so the three of us started it. We hired three people right away. We hired someone to be our assistant to help us manage all this. We hired a CEO and we hired a chief content officer. And those were incredible hires who really helped us build this. And Without them, it wouldn't have happened.
And we were... we realized we were where we got luckiest is so the three of us started it. We hired three people right away. We hired someone to be our assistant to help us manage all this. We hired a CEO and we hired a chief content officer. And those were incredible hires who really helped us build this. And Without them, it wouldn't have happened.
And so that group of six really were able to figure out the next group of hires. And Sarah, who was COO, was able to really build a business plan and We launched the show in January and we gave ourselves a couple of months. Then we said three months to get the audience. We were starting from scratch. We never had an RSS feed. We literally launched zero subscribers.
And so that group of six really were able to figure out the next group of hires. And Sarah, who was COO, was able to really build a business plan and We launched the show in January and we gave ourselves a couple of months. Then we said three months to get the audience. We were starting from scratch. We never had an RSS feed. We literally launched zero subscribers.
We gave ourselves three months to get back to where we were in the ringer. Within an episode or two, the audience was back. Within three or four episodes, the audience had doubled. And then we were kind of off to the races. And that gave us the space to launch other shows.
We gave ourselves three months to get back to where we were in the ringer. Within an episode or two, the audience was back. Within three or four episodes, the audience had doubled. And then we were kind of off to the races. And that gave us the space to launch other shows.
And we basically, because we were so lean when we started, we never had to take investment, which meant we never had debt or money. who were breathing down our neck to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. We were able to be deliberate and careful. That was a double-edged sword because on the one hand, we have been profitable. We have never not been profitable.
And we basically, because we were so lean when we started, we never had to take investment, which meant we never had debt or money. who were breathing down our neck to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. We were able to be deliberate and careful. That was a double-edged sword because on the one hand, we have been profitable. We have never not been profitable.
And that's strange for a media company, certainly a media company startup. But it also meant that we never had that, like what had to drive our growth was the project itself, the belief in the company and wanting the company to be bigger, reach more people, fulfill its mission. We never had the kind of like, we never had like a tech bro behind us breathing down our neck
And that's strange for a media company, certainly a media company startup. But it also meant that we never had that, like what had to drive our growth was the project itself, the belief in the company and wanting the company to be bigger, reach more people, fulfill its mission. We never had the kind of like, we never had like a tech bro behind us breathing down our neck
Absolutely. There has been. There's been more control. But I sometimes think, too, like when you have what you have, there's a fire. There's a, there's an urgency. And so we had to generate our own urgency, which we did, which we did. So look, we've grown a ton. I went from, you know, five to 10 to 15 to 20 to 40 to 80. I think we're at a hundred right now.
Absolutely. There has been. There's been more control. But I sometimes think, too, like when you have what you have, there's a fire. There's a, there's an urgency. And so we had to generate our own urgency, which we did, which we did. So look, we've grown a ton. I went from, you know, five to 10 to 15 to 20 to 40 to 80. I think we're at a hundred right now.
People, you know, we've, we've, and we've launched dozens of shows. We've built out YouTube. We're now, we've done touring. We launched Vote Save America, which is our kind of activism arm and seeing great success there. So like we've grown a ton. The most professionally fulfilling thing you've done, yes?
People, you know, we've, we've, and we've launched dozens of shows. We've built out YouTube. We're now, we've done touring. We launched Vote Save America, which is our kind of activism arm and seeing great success there. So like we've grown a ton. The most professionally fulfilling thing you've done, yes?
So I think that you're combining two issues. One issue is does working with your friends change your relationship? Of course it does. Of course it does. Then there's how do you work with your friends? I remember having this realization early on, which was, it's not much a realization, but like, wow, all bands really do break up, you know?
So I think that you're combining two issues. One issue is does working with your friends change your relationship? Of course it does. Of course it does. Then there's how do you work with your friends? I remember having this realization early on, which was, it's not much a realization, but like, wow, all bands really do break up, you know?
And we are not just, we are a band, but we're also kind of a record label. You know, we're kind of doing both at the same time. We are the hosts of the show. We're also building this company. And realizing that that in that kind of a environment in which there is stress, there's disagreement, there's a lot of incredibly rewarding moments that you share. Conflict that creates creativity.
And we are not just, we are a band, but we're also kind of a record label. You know, we're kind of doing both at the same time. We are the hosts of the show. We're also building this company. And realizing that that in that kind of a environment in which there is stress, there's disagreement, there's a lot of incredibly rewarding moments that you share. Conflict that creates creativity.
There's creative conflict. There's just different points of view. There's ego, right? You're hosting this thing together. There's history. There's all of that. And realizing that really what you're doing is you're never going to... It's not, making sure you're working well together is not like a problem you solve. It's, there's just a, it's a project, right?
There's creative conflict. There's just different points of view. There's ego, right? You're hosting this thing together. There's history. There's all of that. And realizing that really what you're doing is you're never going to... It's not, making sure you're working well together is not like a problem you solve. It's, there's just a, it's a project, right?
It's something you're gonna have to maintain. There's gonna be little moments that pop up and you have to talk about them and you have to be honest about them and you can't let it build up. You can't think like, oh, things are good or, oh, we're having problems. It's that you are always going, there's always just a, you have to just kind of watch the pressure dials, right?
It's something you're gonna have to maintain. There's gonna be little moments that pop up and you have to talk about them and you have to be honest about them and you can't let it build up. You can't think like, oh, things are good or, oh, we're having problems. It's that you are always going, there's always just a, you have to just kind of watch the pressure dials, right?
There's just gonna be some pressure dials. It's okay. There's going to be moments of tension between everybody. That's okay. But you're going to walk through them and talk because you care about each other. You have the same mission. You have the same goals. You're loyal to each other in each other's corner. We don't all see things the same way. We've had our conflicts over the years, but...
There's just gonna be some pressure dials. It's okay. There's going to be moments of tension between everybody. That's okay. But you're going to walk through them and talk because you care about each other. You have the same mission. You have the same goals. You're loyal to each other in each other's corner. We don't all see things the same way. We've had our conflicts over the years, but...
You know, we ended up years later going through, we took on investors and we were working through the paperwork, right? A lot of paperwork. And there were always these questions about like, well, what if you guys disagree or what? And we were always just like, look,
You know, we ended up years later going through, we took on investors and we were working through the paperwork, right? A lot of paperwork. And there were always these questions about like, well, what if you guys disagree or what? And we were always just like, look,
we annoy each other sometimes, but like there was, we always would say like, don't worry about what happens if the three of us disagree. Like if you're our lawyers and you're trying to protect us for what happens if we start disagreeing and like, don't worry about that. Like we will have each other's backs. We never need to worry about that.
we annoy each other sometimes, but like there was, we always would say like, don't worry about what happens if the three of us disagree. Like if you're our lawyers and you're trying to protect us for what happens if we start disagreeing and like, don't worry about that. Like we will have each other's backs. We never need to worry about that.
And I think that's been a really, like underneath all of it, like knowing that we are, that we can truly, at the deepest level, trust each other, makes it so that you don't have to, in the end, worry about a ton of problems that other companies have to deal with.
And I think that's been a really, like underneath all of it, like knowing that we are, that we can truly, at the deepest level, trust each other, makes it so that you don't have to, in the end, worry about a ton of problems that other companies have to deal with.
Well, first of all, John and I met. He hired me. We were colleagues before we were friends. Tommy and John worked together for years. So it's a little bit less. It's not as simple as that. But if you're going to spend all day working with somebody, you know, you've seen them all day. It's different.
Well, first of all, John and I met. He hired me. We were colleagues before we were friends. Tommy and John worked together for years. So it's a little bit less. It's not as simple as that. But if you're going to spend all day working with somebody, you know, you've seen them all day. It's different.
You're not going to, you know, you're not going to like, you know, you're going to, you have a work relationship and you spend already a ton of time together. It's just going to change your dynamic outside of work. That's like, that's not a bad thing or a good thing. It's a different thing. I think there are plenty of people who can't work with their friends, right? That's not us.
You're not going to, you know, you're not going to like, you know, you're going to, you have a work relationship and you spend already a ton of time together. It's just going to change your dynamic outside of work. That's like, that's not a bad thing or a good thing. It's a different thing. I think there are plenty of people who can't work with their friends, right? That's not us.
But like, if you have a great friend in your life who you see each other after work a couple of times a week or a couple of times a month and you catch up about life and you spend Saturdays working out together and then go into a movie or something, like if you work together, it's gonna be different. It's gonna be different. That's not a good thing or bad thing, but just it is gonna be a change.
But like, if you have a great friend in your life who you see each other after work a couple of times a week or a couple of times a month and you catch up about life and you spend Saturdays working out together and then go into a movie or something, like if you work together, it's gonna be different. It's gonna be different. That's not a good thing or bad thing, but just it is gonna be a change.
And you have to just, we, we never talked about that. It was just, this was what we have to do. This is what we're doing. It was absolutely the right thing. What's been the hardest thing? What has been the hardest thing? So I don't know what the hardest thing is.
And you have to just, we, we never talked about that. It was just, this was what we have to do. This is what we're doing. It was absolutely the right thing. What's been the hardest thing? What has been the hardest thing? So I don't know what the hardest thing is.
The couple of things, one is you go from hiring everybody to hiring the people, hiring everybody to you come into the office and there's just somebody that's there and they don't know you.
The couple of things, one is you go from hiring everybody to hiring the people, hiring everybody to you come into the office and there's just somebody that's there and they don't know you.
But it's more that I think for me, it's like, the way it felt when it was 10 or 20, just different when it's 100. And it's hard for you, you realize, oh, you like, it's hard to convince somebody that, you know, they can talk shit to you, right? If you feel like you're their boss's boss's boss, you know what I mean? It just, it's different. Yeah.
But it's more that I think for me, it's like, the way it felt when it was 10 or 20, just different when it's 100. And it's hard for you, you realize, oh, you like, it's hard to convince somebody that, you know, they can talk shit to you, right? If you feel like you're their boss's boss's boss, you know what I mean? It just, it's different. Yeah.
I, I, I also think, um, one challenge has been, as the company has grown, realizing that making sure that you are maintaining the voice of the company in a way that is both narrow enough that you haven't lost what Crooked Media is, but expansive enough that as new and interesting and talented people come in, they lend their voice to the company as well and make it better, right?
I, I, I also think, um, one challenge has been, as the company has grown, realizing that making sure that you are maintaining the voice of the company in a way that is both narrow enough that you haven't lost what Crooked Media is, but expansive enough that as new and interesting and talented people come in, they lend their voice to the company as well and make it better, right?
So it's, when are you demanding conformity versus demanding consistency, which are different things? That's been a challenge for me. being, prioritizing has always been a problem for me. It is hard to be, you know, I'm a host on Mondays, I'm a host on Thursdays. I'm in a lot of other kinds of meetings, Wednesdays, Tuesdays, Fridays.
So it's, when are you demanding conformity versus demanding consistency, which are different things? That's been a challenge for me. being, prioritizing has always been a problem for me. It is hard to be, you know, I'm a host on Mondays, I'm a host on Thursdays. I'm in a lot of other kinds of meetings, Wednesdays, Tuesdays, Fridays.
I should have denied it. I should have denied it. You caught me, but I should have. I could have gotten away with it. No, I didn't.
I should have denied it. I should have denied it. You caught me, but I should have. I could have gotten away with it. No, I didn't.
Fundamentally, I think all of these things tie back to like what happens when you're moving too fast, right? And when you're moving too fast, sometimes the shows you're hosting may suffer a little bit because you haven't paid enough attention to them. Sometimes you're kind of in, like you're kind of, I sometimes joke that like, I'm sorry to pop in like the Babadook, right?
Fundamentally, I think all of these things tie back to like what happens when you're moving too fast, right? And when you're moving too fast, sometimes the shows you're hosting may suffer a little bit because you haven't paid enough attention to them. Sometimes you're kind of in, like you're kind of, I sometimes joke that like, I'm sorry to pop in like the Babadook, right?
Like, cause something's, there's a process, something's unfolding. And then I sort of like pop up to change it or to have an opinion. But I think in a deeper way, what you're talking about too is like, I think sometimes when you're moving fast, you realize, oh, like I, I didn't, I wasn't in a, like I could have approached that in a more sensitive way, right?
Like, cause something's, there's a process, something's unfolding. And then I sort of like pop up to change it or to have an opinion. But I think in a deeper way, what you're talking about too is like, I think sometimes when you're moving fast, you realize, oh, like I, I didn't, I wasn't in a, like I could have approached that in a more sensitive way, right?
Or I could have, I was, I was brusque in that moment.
Or I could have, I was, I was brusque in that moment.
And, and, but it's that, like, how do I make sure And some of it is also just letting go of certain things and knowing that it's not maybe exactly how you would do it, but it's still being done well, even if it's not the way you think it should be going.
And, and, but it's that, like, how do I make sure And some of it is also just letting go of certain things and knowing that it's not maybe exactly how you would do it, but it's still being done well, even if it's not the way you think it should be going.
Yeah, it's tough. And it's also part of it too. It's like, I've noticed too, it's- You have really good people that are doing a great job, but you don't feel like you've done enough to convey what the goal is or what the tone of it should be. And then you have to be in it along the way. And that's your fault for having not done a good enough job at the start on the front.
Yeah, it's tough. And it's also part of it too. It's like, I've noticed too, it's- You have really good people that are doing a great job, but you don't feel like you've done enough to convey what the goal is or what the tone of it should be. And then you have to be in it along the way. And that's your fault for having not done a good enough job at the start on the front.
But I think part of it too is like, I like, I like being busy. To go back to where we started, I have a very good relationship. I like being pulled in a million different directions. I like a busy day. I'm gonna go from here, I was looking at my lunch, Because I'm going to go back from here, run back.
But I think part of it too is like, I like, I like being busy. To go back to where we started, I have a very good relationship. I like being pulled in a million different directions. I like a busy day. I'm gonna go from here, I was looking at my lunch, Because I'm going to go back from here, run back.
We're going to meet to talk about a design thing with this incredible designer who runs our design team. Then I'm going to meet with the Love It or Leave It team to plan a bunch of stuff. Then I'm going to meet with the politics team to talk about what we're doing with Vote Save America. And I love getting to do all those different things.
We're going to meet to talk about a design thing with this incredible designer who runs our design team. Then I'm going to meet with the Love It or Leave It team to plan a bunch of stuff. Then I'm going to meet with the politics team to talk about what we're doing with Vote Save America. And I love getting to do all those different things.
And as long as I feel... There's a meeting we do called Comedy Corner. And it's a meeting that started five or six years ago. Comedy Corner was the name of a few funny people at the company, different jobs who just get together and brainstorm funny things we could do.
And as long as I feel... There's a meeting we do called Comedy Corner. And it's a meeting that started five or six years ago. Comedy Corner was the name of a few funny people at the company, different jobs who just get together and brainstorm funny things we could do.
And then it's now, as we're 100 people, it's now grown into a weekly meeting run by Hallie Kiefer, who's the head writer of Love It or Leave It, where people come to pitch and also to get ideas for their projects. So we need a merch idea or we're naming this website or whatever it is. And I don't go, it used to be my meeting, now I kind of go once in a while.
And then it's now, as we're 100 people, it's now grown into a weekly meeting run by Hallie Kiefer, who's the head writer of Love It or Leave It, where people come to pitch and also to get ideas for their projects. So we need a merch idea or we're naming this website or whatever it is. And I don't go, it used to be my meeting, now I kind of go once in a while.
And I'll be in the meeting and we'll be pitching and I'll throw a couple ideas. And a lot of times, if the meeting is pitching something for my show, I actually don't go. Because then it becomes pitching me, which is not the purpose. But I like to try to go and just be a person pitching. It's not my meeting, I'm just here to throw out ideas. And we'll joke like,
And I'll be in the meeting and we'll be pitching and I'll throw a couple ideas. And a lot of times, if the meeting is pitching something for my show, I actually don't go. Because then it becomes pitching me, which is not the purpose. But I like to try to go and just be a person pitching. It's not my meeting, I'm just here to throw out ideas. And we'll joke like,
especially with the people that have been there a long time, like, did I add anything to this meeting? Should I have come to this? Right? Because sometimes if I go and then all of a sudden everyone's pitching at me, that ruins the meeting. But then sometimes I'll come and I'll be like, oh, you know what? I have an idea, you know? And it's like, all right, I still got it, you know?
especially with the people that have been there a long time, like, did I add anything to this meeting? Should I have come to this? Right? Because sometimes if I go and then all of a sudden everyone's pitching at me, that ruins the meeting. But then sometimes I'll come and I'll be like, oh, you know what? I have an idea, you know? And it's like, all right, I still got it, you know?
I can still do it.
I can still do it.
I think that's the wrong thing to care about. I think it is, I think taking, I think taking too much esteem from that is the wrong thing to care about. It's good, it's great, it's good. This team is assembled. But like, I think kind of like behold what we have built is a bad instinct. And I don't think that, I think that is, a little bit like kind of there's arrogance in it.
I think that's the wrong thing to care about. I think it is, I think taking, I think taking too much esteem from that is the wrong thing to care about. It's good, it's great, it's good. This team is assembled. But like, I think kind of like behold what we have built is a bad instinct. And I don't think that, I think that is, a little bit like kind of there's arrogance in it.
And so I feel those things, but I don't think those are good feelings to feel. I think better to feel more oh, I don't want to let this group of people down. And if I'm here, I want to make sure that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do to validate everyone who's decided to be here. I think for me, I really take a lot of joy in routine and kind of hitting my marks in each of these places.
And so I feel those things, but I don't think those are good feelings to feel. I think better to feel more oh, I don't want to let this group of people down. And if I'm here, I want to make sure that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do to validate everyone who's decided to be here. I think for me, I really take a lot of joy in routine and kind of hitting my marks in each of these places.
And I feel most proud when I am able to bounce from all of these and play these different parts and do it well and do it with kind of joy in the moment. That's when I'll be like, you know what? It's not like, oh, look what I've assembled, but more like, Somebody said this, like people always say like, oh wow, you guys have a lot of fun in those meetings. And we do.
And I feel most proud when I am able to bounce from all of these and play these different parts and do it well and do it with kind of joy in the moment. That's when I'll be like, you know what? It's not like, oh, look what I've assembled, but more like, Somebody said this, like people always say like, oh wow, you guys have a lot of fun in those meetings. And we do.
And that's to me when I feel the most joy. It's not like, oh wow, it's more like we're putting this show together and we're laughing the whole time. We're having a blast. And everybody feels like they're doing good work in a show they believe in, in part because they trust that I will deliver when I have to deliver.
And that's to me when I feel the most joy. It's not like, oh wow, it's more like we're putting this show together and we're laughing the whole time. We're having a blast. And everybody feels like they're doing good work in a show they believe in, in part because they trust that I will deliver when I have to deliver.
I said that it's a thought process that could encourage –
I said that it's a thought process that could encourage –
I guess, I guess that's right. I guess, I just, I think it's, I think that that's the wrong kind of pride. I think that's the wrong kind of pride. For me, maybe because I feel like I will take too much from it.
I guess, I guess that's right. I guess, I just, I think it's, I think that that's the wrong kind of pride. I think that's the wrong kind of pride. For me, maybe because I feel like I will take too much from it.
I think it's a little kind of like, you know, Simba, everything the light touches. I think that's all unhealthy.
I think it's a little kind of like, you know, Simba, everything the light touches. I think that's all unhealthy.
I think if there's value to you saying, you know, this is hard, this can be frustrating, but like, look how far we've come. Look what we've made already. I don't think there's anything, I don't think there's anything wrong with any of this. I'm just, for me, I'm just thinking like, what is that instinct?
I think if there's value to you saying, you know, this is hard, this can be frustrating, but like, look how far we've come. Look what we've made already. I don't think there's anything, I don't think there's anything wrong with any of this. I'm just, for me, I'm just thinking like, what is that instinct?
I think it's an instinct towards arrogance that's worth fighting because it's also, I don't, I take, I have trouble with the word yours and, You oversee this thing that you've helped build. It is a result of a lot of people's work. It's a result of a lot of luck. It's a result of a lot of talent. You reap a lot of the benefits from it. But it's a collective work. as well.
I think it's an instinct towards arrogance that's worth fighting because it's also, I don't, I take, I have trouble with the word yours and, You oversee this thing that you've helped build. It is a result of a lot of people's work. It's a result of a lot of luck. It's a result of a lot of talent. You reap a lot of the benefits from it. But it's a collective work. as well.
I hope so. I hope so.
I hope so. I hope so.
I think what we took from that experience is... We went from, I'm gonna get these numbers a little bit wrong, but say roughly from, we like more than doubled in size during the pandemic. And that's a lot of time and a lot of culture to develop when people are sitting in their homes and not together.
I think what we took from that experience is... We went from, I'm gonna get these numbers a little bit wrong, but say roughly from, we like more than doubled in size during the pandemic. And that's a lot of time and a lot of culture to develop when people are sitting in their homes and not together.
Everybody went through it during the pandemic. Everybody, everybody, everybody, everybody. And we grew a lot and we changed a lot. And we also were kind of, our business was growing and changing. We were working with Sirius. We were taking on investors. And I think we had a lot of work to do to build better communication across the company.
Everybody went through it during the pandemic. Everybody, everybody, everybody, everybody. And we grew a lot and we changed a lot. And we also were kind of, our business was growing and changing. We were working with Sirius. We were taking on investors. And I think we had a lot of work to do to build better communication across the company.
First of all, we had to figure out what direction we were going in. Then we had to convey that. And then we had to kind of work with everybody to kind of build a kind of collaborative, trusting, positive culture for the company. And I think that is something that... came the realization of how much how important that was, I think, became clear through the collective bargaining process.
First of all, we had to figure out what direction we were going in. Then we had to convey that. And then we had to kind of work with everybody to kind of build a kind of collaborative, trusting, positive culture for the company. And I think that is something that... came the realization of how much how important that was, I think, became clear through the collective bargaining process.
But I will say now that we're on the other side of it, I feel like there was a lot of kind of growth we did together to get to that agreement. And now we have that agreement. And I do feel like we're in a really good place.
But I will say now that we're on the other side of it, I feel like there was a lot of kind of growth we did together to get to that agreement. And now we have that agreement. And I do feel like we're in a really good place.
When I walked in, you were like, are you stressed? It's like, no, this is baseline.
When I walked in, you were like, are you stressed? It's like, no, this is baseline.
I subtly, subtly, there's no clock in here. Oh, there is a clock right fucking there. I could have just looked to my right. I fucked this whole thing up. Yeah.
I subtly, subtly, there's no clock in here. Oh, there is a clock right fucking there. I could have just looked to my right. I fucked this whole thing up. Yeah.