Jonathan Badeen

I woke up one morning, just literally woke up, sat up in bed and was like, oh my God, I've got it.

I think it absolutely does. I mean, ultimately it's only going to, that's the only way you're going to succeed, you know, unless you are strictly looking for hookups and, you know, can keep the lie going or something for a while. But, uh, you know, ultimately, uh, whatever facade that you put up, it's going to, it's going to break down.

So you might as well start off and get the people that you're, you know, as you said, who are more going to be more interesting to you or, and interested in you. Um, But Tinder in many ways was really built to try to drive authenticity. I don't think people realize this today as much, but some of the features that we originally did were including things like shared friends.

That was sort of taken away from us at a certain point, but that was a big thing. And for sort of safety, and you could essentially vet people, but it was trying to show that authentic person. You didn't get to choose your name on there. You didn't get to choose the original version of Tinder. You couldn't even choose your photo. It was your Facebook photo.

I'd say two parts to that. One, you know, most relationships probably started with a hookup. So just because people, you know, a large contingent of users on Tinder, I think it's a majority, I don't know the latest numbers or whatnot, but, you know, they're actually looking for a relationship. Doesn't mean they're not. open to a hookup. So there is that.

It was locked to that, trying to get that real photo that you share with your family and friends. It showed your shared interest with the person. Of course, today it's useless, but based upon Facebook interest, you're not sitting there lying. These are the things that you liked on Facebook. You weren't doing it for the purpose of that. I think that was really what we were trying to do. Of course,

people have other ideas a lot of the time, but, um, but that is where we were really going. And cause we think it is, uh, we thought it was so important, uh, to sort of, to, to show an authentic side of oneself.

Um, and you know, and people are going to see through it if it, if you're not, um, and it's going to, uh, at worst turn or at best turn somebody off, uh, away to at worst make somebody think you're, creepy and deceitful.

I have done that once. What did you do? Sharks in the Caribbean.

No, I did it once. I'm not suggesting you should go do it.

Yeah, I did. Oh, I see what you mean.

I'm not the adventure person. Sorry. Sorry for interrupting.

Absolutely. And I think, you know...

really shouldn't try to predict what somebody else wants anyway because I mean like I think there's you look at it you know oh I'm looking for somebody who's interested in the same things as me right that's that's the key to success of relationship or is it because they also say opposites attract so I mean like you almost you don't necessarily even know what it is and so maybe you know it's not really worth it to try to predict what the other person is wanting because you know it may not be that or they may not even know what it is until they see what it is

But on top of that, it is used for everything. The number of marriages that have happened is insane. I get invited to different weddings and stuff like that. And it's really what you make of it. I think some of that stigma really came out of the fact that we launched the app on college campuses. That's sort of where we started. And that's kind of That market, that's kind of what they do.

Oh, there's a billion. I mean, that's, that's actually one of the most frustrating things as time goes on is, is that you just, you build this, uh, you know, everybody in that company just had a long list. The, the, the list of things that we wanted to make, uh, just went on forever. Um, and, uh, and it was just a matter of picking which one are we going to try?

So there's, there's all sorts of things that, uh, uh, that we, that we wanted.

Well, I think one of my favorites that I wanted to do was a... I won't go into full detail on it just in case anybody cares or whatever, but it was basically sort of a group dating bar hopping type of product that I thought would have been pretty cool trying to use Tinder, which was trying to essentially make Tinder useful at a time when... uh, the Tinder isn't generally useful.

Cause you know, like Tinder, for instance, like one of the, you know, the lower usage days are the days where people are out and busy and they've got things going on. You know, the, you know, that's the time when people have downtime, that's the time where they really use Tinder.

And so it was, uh, that was sort of the goal is to try to like try to make Tinder useful at those times when you're out and about with your friends and all of that.

I think so. I think there's a little bit of that slot machine effect of like, you know, let me do one more. I remember back in college, Hot or Not was a thing, you know, it wasn't for dating, but it was for, you know, they added that later. But it was, you know, it was just sort of like, I'm going to, I'll stop once I get one more, when I see one more nine or something like that, you know.

So there was a little bit of that element going on. But I think even just the sort of the swipe action itself ends up sort of having an emotional connection to it, you know, where you're sort of like, oh, hell no. There is that sort of emotional connection to it.

I think that interface and everything in general, it kind of feeds into that sort of almost people-watching kind of thing that people like to do. And to me, I like to think as a Disney fan, I always think of Mary Poppins and a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. And so that was not necessarily that quote being very cognizant of it when we were creating Tinder.

But this idea of like, look, dating can be a difficult thing and going through all of these things. And let's see if we can try to make that process work. fun, um, and sort of disguising the work. Um, and because Tinder, you know, I think compared to other platforms that pre, uh, that, uh, predated Tinder, uh, Tinder was a little bit more of a numbers game.

Uh, it was a bit more go through a whole bunch of people. Um, and you know, and, and that's going to ultimately, you know, whether, uh, swiping through a whole bunch of people and then going out on dates with a The idea is you're going to increase the chances of finding the person that's right for you. And so other platforms were a little bit more focused on diving into the person.

You'd spend more time on those and all. So we had to make something that was fun to get you through more people faster.

They're a little bit more hookup-centric and all, and so it kind of came from that. But it really isn't. It's whatever it is that you're looking for, you should be able to find it on Tinder and, of course, the other platforms.

Well, I think some of it starts with trying to portray your best self, whether that be evaluate your photos and your profile and everything. Everything on there, evaluate it. And you'll notice a lot that people put horrible pictures up on there.

I'm not saying you have to be a model or anything like that, but horrible quality photos, things like that, and run it by your friends, preferably women, who can say either, oh, that's not a good picture of you, or like, yeah, that's not really going to be interesting. a woman.

I think bringing people in to help evaluate, I know it can feel uncomfortable sometimes to expose yourself to your friends and this side of you or whatever, but I think that's important. And I think also just it's utilizing the tools that are there. And there's a lot of tools that are in there from everything from sort of testing photos to trying to determine which of your photos is the best.

There's a lot of things for adding to your profile and all. And those little things... they can help. Somebody sees that you like something on there that they don't like, maybe it'll turn them off, but guess what? That's fine. It wasn't going to work out with them anyway. But you're giving people you're giving other people another reason to swipe right.

You know, and try to keep it a little bit lighthearted. Try to add a little bit of fun to your profiles. And then, you know, the paid features do work. I'm not saying go spend all your money on them. That's not the goal. And in fact, you know, Tinder was... We tried to make the paid feature something that it would just... break the system if everybody had it.

But if it was something that we felt that everybody would truly benefit from having it, then it shouldn't be a paid feature. Um, so the paid features we kind of saw as, as superpowers. And so they're, they're useful, but I'm not, you know, you can get by just fine without them. So if you don't need it, don't, I'm not suggesting, you know, I make no money off of it now.

So don't, I'm not, I'm not trying to push anybody to go spend all their money on Tinder or any other of the platforms. But, um, But some of them do work. So it's worth trying. And it might be worth trying. Last I read is the average online daters on three platforms. Maybe try a little something different on each platform too, which is your own A-B test.

So I think those are some ways it might help.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of proof that they do work. That doesn't mean to say that things aren't difficult. They're difficult out the bars, too. They're difficult everywhere. And it's a matter of portraying yourself in the best way that you can.

Yeah, I think that's – a lot of people end up taking it out on dating services as well as online services in general because of – of either what, you know, the people on there or what they're doing and all. And it's, it's it is kind of what you make of it. It's not to say it's all perfect. It isn't, but it is there, there are certainly ways to have a better profile than that for sure.

Pictures are important.

Absolutely.

There's so many. I can't remember. I'll tell you, though, I think one of my favorite things, though, is that I don't even think it's on Tinder. It was a friend of mine that put on his profile that Kinj has some sort of audio thing, and he used an AI thing. I don't remember if it was Obama or somebody, basically an AI, basically vouching for him in the little voice note thing.

Well, it starts off less pressure. It's a little bit easier to be your more authentic self when it's low pressure like that.

And it's not like nobody thinks that it's Obama or whoever it was doing it. It's just something that's a little fun and playful, and it's something that he certainly attested to. And so I thought that was...

And I think it kind of all goes back, you know, you're talking about profiles and injecting fun into it, how important that is because you're essentially trying to give an idea of what going on a date with you is going to be like. And you don't want to go on a date with somebody who you're not going to have fun with.

So if you're able to inject some fun into your profile, it gives a hint of like, look, we're going to have some fun. That's just hugely important.

Yeah, you're not going to be miserable all night. I think what most people are just trying to avoid is misery. Yes.

I mean, I float somewhere in between. I think some people might call me introverted. Some people might call me extroverted. It kind of depends on the situation. But I think, you know, from my own experience, the places where my introvertedness kind of showed was that sort of, especially in those nervousness. And I think the more you practice, the better.

And so, you know, go out on those dates and just feel like, you know, as much as possible. And... You might even think like, hey, look, next five dates, they're going to suck. They're all going to suck or something. Actually, hope for something good. But at the same time, reduce the pressure on it and just use it as experience to get yourself more comfortable.

And the only way to do that is to not... To not make the stakes high, I think. Practice makes perfect. There's a lot of women out there who are introverted, too. That might be a good thing for you, but at the same time, it's gonna make it a little bit harder for you to meet. So somebody's gotta step up and try to act a little bit more extroverted to make it work.

Exactly.

Absolutely. I can relate quite a bit to that. I used to have a really hard time dating before Tinder. And every time I did go out on a date, which was very rare, I would...

Well, it's certainly, you know, there's algorithm. I don't even know what the current algorithm is. It changes over time. Including the ELO thing was real. That was a way of just trying to better match people. But there's a lot of things that end up going into it. And one of the things that really is heavily used, we found over the years, was just like, was recency.

So that one's an important one. You got to keep using it. And I'm not like, again, I'm not there. I'm not making money off of this. But just telling you kind of how things work is that you have to keep using the thing because we want to show other, like we don't want to match somebody up. We didn't want to match somebody up with somebody who was not going to be there to answer them.

We were able to observe that the better chance of a conversation happening and thus ultimately success on Tinder was...

that conversation happening and therefore the the increase the the more recently somebody used the app the higher the chance of that happening so that was like actually one of the big one of the big levers that really uh there was so that's one of those things you kind of you do have to kind of be active on there in order to to get those um uh matches um you know

I'm sure the algorithm can hurt some people and help people, but it's something that they constantly are looking at and trying to adjust because ultimately they want the same thing as you. They want you to meet people.

I know some people, there's conspiracy theories out there about like, no, they don't want you to meet, you know, they just want you on there all the time and that they want you to, they're holding everything back until, you know, start paying them. None of that's true. The best advertising for Tinder was a successful use case, whether that be hookups or whether that be marriage or whatever.

Those are the people that were going to get the other people on the platform. We didn't care if we lost some people to a wedding. That was amazing. That was how we were going to get more people in. If you blame the app... you're never going to be able to conquer the app. I will say that.

there would be such pressure on me, self-induced pressure, thinking like, oh, is this my, when is, I gotta make the best of this because I don't know when the next date's gonna be, you know, and trying to make the most of everything to the point like I have literal sweat

I'm not saying everything's going to work for you exactly the way you want it to and that there might be something back there that's getting in your way on the algorithm or whatever. But ultimately, if you think that way, it's going to be really hard to improve yourself and make it better if you're blaming something else. Even if it ends up not being you, right?

Use it as an opportunity to improve it.

Absolutely.

No, and the better you make your profile too, I don't know what the current algorithm is, but it probably does hurt you to have just one photo. Years ago, we did research too where we found that there were a certain number of photos, and obviously not every photo is equal to the next, but your likelihood of matching increased with every photo that you added to your profile up to a certain extent.

I don't know what that, I don't remember what that number was, but so that was ended up being kind of one of our goals is like, try to encourage users to add photos up to this point, uh, to increase their chances of success. Um, and so I wouldn't be surprised if the algorithm, you know, takes things like that in, uh, you know, factors that in, but ultimately I don't know what it is at the moment.

you know like stains on my shirt and stuff and then once I once we built tender I it made it easy enough for me to just kinda go on enough dates just it was like I didn't care so much anymore about is this is this the one or whatever it's like all I care about is going out, having a drink or something, meeting this person, and if it works out great, awesome.

It's usually praising. Every once in a while, somebody will say something, but I think most people probably, if they had bad experiences, they might keep it to themselves to be nice to me, I guess. But no, I've had... There's just so many weddings. I think the... You know, now there's been so many that I, you know, they kind of just blur together.

But like, I just remember some of those early times, you know, when I was, you know, there. And I remember when we first made Tinder that I was like, I was thinking to myself, like, you know, hey, if this doesn't work out, if I meet somebody or not me, if I'm sorry. Yes. If I meet somebody who met me.

their husband or wife or something 20 years from now, uh, the whole thing will been, you know, worth it. And I'm pretty sure that's going to happen now. And, and it was, it was just really early on, um,

those sort of first people that came up and like, Oh, I met whoever I, uh, actually the first time I had somebody tell me that they were getting married and like the app had not been out that long. That was a little bit scary to me. I'm like, are you, we haven't been around that long. Are you sure you're getting married? But, um, uh, you know, I, I, it's, uh,

And I think some of the stories too that have been really, some of the more proud ones to me that made me more proud of Tinder were the ones where relationships that would not have happened if it weren't for Tinder. Like people, it might be a racial difference or something like that where they're like, well, if you gave me the option to choose Tinder,

I would never have seen the person I would have never have met. Um, there's, uh, there's all sorts of crazy stories like that, that have been, um, been pretty special, but it's, uh, but I do get a kick out of it. Every time somebody tells me, it's like, yeah, I had a, a part of that. Uh, I really, I really want to, uh, it's, uh,

The Jason Kelsey one is the one that hit me the latest, being a fan of Travis Kelsey and all. And I was just like, oh, my God. I'm responsible for Travis Kelsey's nephew or niece or whatever. I think he's got nieces.

It is. It is. You know, I, I, we also used to have the, uh, some baby onesies that we used to send out that said Tinder tot on them. But, uh, That's what made it so special was that you really were changing the lives of people in very meaningful ways. That's what it's all about.

Well, you're doing good work.

Let's do it.

Oh, that's a big swipe off, I guess. Actually, I'm going to cheat. That's a, that's a super like right there.

If it doesn't, I'll go out with somebody tomorrow or next week. It's no big deal. And to the point where it kind of flipped. So in the future, a lot of times the women I'd go out with would be the ones who were more nervous, and I was the one who was just chill because it was not a big deal to me at that point. Because you finally had options. Yeah, and I wasn't there to hook up or anything.

To get there, right, for sure. But I've obviously got my love that will hopefully stop them.

I'll swipe right. Swipe right.

Um, you know, I might close the app and come back to it later. How about the Beatles? Oh, the Beatles. I'm a big fan. Swipe right on that for sure.

I'd like some of his songs singing.

I don't know. I guess right. I don't have anything against the guy. Maybe just don't drink and drive, but you know.

Obviously, Mickey Mouse. Okay. You know, don't want to make Minnie jealous, so I'd swipe right on her, too. Yeah, I love all the parks, you know, Disneyland, Disney World, and, you know, favorite Disney movies, I guess, probably, I don't know, like Beauty and the Beast and a lot of the Pixar films. Okay. Yeah, there's always something good there.

Ultimate show. Oh, God. Let's see. If I was going, one of my favorite dramas of all time really is one that a lot of people didn't watch is Halt and Catch Fire.

Yeah, it's really good. That and maybe Parenthood, but yeah. Comedies I'd go for, let's see, Arrested Development, not the Netflix stuff. Right. Coupling, the British version. The Parks and Rec I really liked, too. Those are some of my favorites in comedies, I think.

I think I'll have to do something that's on brand that combines Disney Pixar as well as, well, my work, which is just keep swiping, just keep swiping. Finding Nemo instead of swimming.

I wasn't putting my entire future into that night.

Yeah, I would say so. I think that just me being, you know, I think I probably could have got plenty of dates, but I didn't have the confidence or the, you know, just it was me going up and hitting on a girl or something like that was not going to happen generally, which makes it a little hard to, you know, ask somebody out.

But I'm much more comfortable in a digital sense, a little bit of protection of a screen between me and a person to take that initiative then.

You know, I wouldn't say that there were any specific stories that led to it. And a lot of the impetus for Tinder was my co-founder had noticed some of the issues with the existing products that were out there. But, you know, I think just generally the troubles I had made me a little bit more open to the idea of trying to create something. You know, because between just...

meeting people in the world or using things that existed back then like Match.com or OkCupid and all, the kinds of things where I'd go out with people where it's very clear that they were just out for me to buy them a meal and essentially ghosting me afterwards and stuff like that. I think that was from Myspace back in the day. But I think to me, I kind of forget about that stuff.

To me, the most memorable part was just how how absolutely nervous I was. Like I said, I'm not exaggerating about the amount of sweat that I had pouring off of me.

I think whether those things happened or not, whether that would have deterred Tinder from being created, I don't know, but it sure did make me maybe slightly more motivated to figure out a platform that would work for me a little bit better.

Oh, exactly. It was that. It was the fact that I was... You know, I'm sure the first few Tinder dates were much like the, you know, pre-Tinder dates. But after that, it was just like, oh, well, I've got another one tomorrow. And maybe in the back of my mind, I'm even thinking about that date tomorrow instead of the one that I'm on right now.

Not that you should be very focused on whoever you're with or whatever. But I mean, just like, it's just that... There just isn't that pressure. You realize how many people there are out there, especially in a big city like Los Angeles, but you realize how many different options there are and you have a means to find them.

Well, it's you. It's just a matter of pulling you out. These platforms are nothing more than... In many ways, I see them less as dating services and more as introduction services. They're not there for you on the date. They're there to get you introduced to somebody for the date.

I think it's what you make of them and how that affects you and allows you to come out of your shell or express yourself.

Yeah, I mean, I guess to me, you know, it's always just a little bit about, you know, what you do and what your family. I mean, obviously, you know, you don't want to focus too much on, you know, what you do. That sometimes can be a bad thing to some. But, I mean, it is a big part of our life. Yeah.

You know, and try to figure out the other person's interests and just sort of... You know, for me, it was generally just trying to keep it sort of natural. The most, you know, trying to force something was where it probably wasn't going to go well. Yeah. And so it was... Yeah, it's just trying to learn about the person.

And if the other person's interested and or if they're good at it, they're going to be asking you a lot of questions. And at some point, you just really have to figure out like, wait, am I answering too many questions? I should probably be engaging the other person more too and learning.

Of course. Yeah. No, I think that's important. For me, that comes naturally. I'm somebody who just, you know, that's probably one of my own downfalls. I'm all too eager to share the same information that I'd ask somebody else.

Well, first off, it is a cool story, but that's the not quite as true story, which is, you know, I had the epiphany, some basically coming out of the shower, looking at a mirror that was all fogged up and wiping the mirror only to reveal my face. and thus The Swipe was born.

It sounds amazing. It sounds amazing. I'm sure it's going to be in a movie or something at some point. But it's slightly based upon the real story, which was I actually came up with it prior to Tinder. And I came up with it for a...

uh, flashcards, educational flashcards app that I had, uh, um, I'd been thinking about problems with it and it really had to do with, uh, trying to solve very specific problems. Like while you try to study for your flashcards while walking to class, one handed, uh, eliminating buttons and, you know, trying to indicate whether you got the card right or wrong and all of those sorts of things.

And I woke up one morning, uh, just, uh, literally woke up, sat up in bed and was like, Oh my God, I got it. And I had been basically the swipe had been born for this flashcards app. And I was like, I've got to make this thing. You know, it's, this is the best way to make a flashcards app. Fast forward a few months though.

And, um, and that's actually when I had met Sean, um, my co-founder, Sean Rad. And, uh, we were showing each other our work. Um, and I had showed him the flashcards app and all. And then when we ended up making Tinder, um, We just ended up with an interface that was a stack of cards, and it was serendipitous, basically, and I ended up throwing the swipe in there.

I would never have come up with it for Tinder because I wasn't trying to solve those problems. You have a big heart and an X button in there. didn't, you know, didn't need it. Um, but, uh, but it felt right to put it in there and we didn't even tell people about it. We weren't trying to be sneaky or anything really.

It was just, uh, it was like, yeah, if you figured it out, it's like figuring out, you know, uh, command or control C on your keyboard instead of clicking the copy button or something, you know, it's just a keyboard shortcut. And it was, so it was not, it wasn't some big thing that we were like, we're going to change the world with the swipe or whatever.

It was, and it was a few months later that we had a college student write in and he said something along the lines of that he and his buddies walking down the street or campus or something like that, that they would say swipe right and swipe left as code about the ladies passing by. Wow.

Yeah. And that was the moment where, to me, all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, we tapped into something. And it wasn't long after that where we actually did start including the swipe terminology in our marketing, in our Twitter accounts or Instagram and all of that sort of stuff. And so we started talking about it that way.

But that was really only in response from it sort of taking a life of its own.

Was this like, so I woke up with this epiphany and I go in, I go into the shower and I'm standing there in the shower, like going like, I'm like, does that work? Is that, you know, why hasn't anybody done this before? You know? So, so I was like, it was, I was like basically thinking through it, you know, completely in the shower, but there was no fogged up mirror, you know, but.

Of course. Yeah. No, I think that's important. For me, that comes naturally. I'm somebody who just, you know, that's probably one of my own downfalls. I'm all too eager to share the same information that I'd ask somebody else.

Well, first off, it is a cool story, but that's the not quite as true story, which is, you know, I had the epiphany, some basically coming out of the shower, looking at a mirror that was all fogged up and wiping the mirror only to reveal my face. and thus the swipe was born. Um, sounds good. It sounds amazing. It sounds amazing.

I'm sure it's going to be in a movie or something at some point, but, um, it's, it's, uh, it's slightly based upon the real story, which was, I actually would not, I actually came up with it prior to Tinder and I came up with it for a, um, uh,

flashcards, educational flashcards app that I had been thinking about problems with it, and it really had to do with trying to solve very specific problems, like while you're trying to study for your flashcards while walking to class one-handed, eliminating buttons, and trying to indicate whether you got the card right or wrong, and all of those sorts of things. And I woke up one morning just

literally woke up, sat up in bed and was like, Oh my God, I got it. And I had been basically the swipe had been born for this flashcards app. And I was like, I've got to make this thing. You know, it's, this is the best way to make a flashcards app. Fast forward a few months though. And, um, and that's actually when I had met Sean, um, my co-founder, Sean Rad.

And, uh, we were showing each other our work. Um, and I had showed him the flashcards app and all. And then when we ended up making Tinder, um, We just ended up with an interface that was a stack of cards, and it was serendipitous, basically. I ended up throwing the swipe in there. I would never have come up with it for Tinder because I wasn't trying to solve those problems.

You have a big heart and an X button in there. didn't, you know, didn't need it. But it felt right to put it in there. And we didn't even tell people about it. We weren't trying to be sneaky or anything, really. It was just, it was like, if you figured it out, it's like figuring out, you know, command or control C on your keyboard instead of

clicking the copy button or something, you know, it's just a keyboard shortcut. And it was, so it was not, it wasn't some big thing that we were like, we're going to change the world with the swipe or whatever.

It was, and it was a few months later that we had a college student write in and he said something along the lines of that he and his buddies walking down the street or campus or something like that, that they would say swipe right and swipe left as code about the ladies passing by. Wow.

Yeah. And that was the moment where, to me, all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, we tapped into something. And it wasn't long after that where we actually did start including the swipe terminology in our marketing, in our Twitter accounts or Instagram and all of that sort of stuff. And so we started talking about it that way.

But that was really only in response from it sort of taking a life of its own.

So the shower moment didn't happen, but what kind of the shower where the shower did come in was this like, so I woke up with this epiphany and I go in, I go into the shower and I'm standing there in the shower, like going like, I'm like, does that work? Is that, you know, why hasn't anybody done this before? You know?

So, so I was like, it was, I was like basically thinking through it, you know, completely in the shower, but there was no fogged up mirror, you know, but.

I think it absolutely does. I mean, ultimately, that's the only way you're going to succeed unless you are strictly looking for hookups and can keep the lie going or something for a while. But ultimately, whatever facade that you put up, it's going to break down. So you might as well start off and get the people that, as you said, who are going to be more interesting to you and interested in you.

um but tinder in many ways was really built to try to to to drive authenticity um i you know i don't think people realize this today as much but you know some of the features that we originally did were including things like shared friends um that was sort of taken away from us at a certain point but um but that was a big thing and for sort of safety and you could essentially vet people but it was trying to show that authentic person

You didn't get to choose your name on there. You didn't get to choose the original version of Tinder. You couldn't even choose your photo. It was your Facebook photo. It was locked to that, trying to get that real photo that you share with your family and friends. It showed your shared interests with the person. Of course, today it's useless, but based upon Facebook interests.

You're not sitting there lying. These are the things that you liked on Facebook. You weren't doing it for the purpose of that. So I think that, that was really what we were trying to do. You know, of course people have other ideas a lot of the time, but, um, but that is where we were really going.

And cause we think it is, uh, we thought it was so important, uh, to sort of, to, to show an authentic side of oneself. Um, and you know, and people are going to see through it if it, if you're not, um, and it's going to, uh, At best, turn somebody off away to, at worst, make somebody think you're creepy and deceitful.

I have done that once. What did you do? Sharks in the Caribbean.

No, I did it once. I'm not suggesting you should go do it.

Yeah, I did.

I'm not the adventure person. Sorry for interrupting.

Absolutely. And I think, you know... you really shouldn't try to predict what somebody else wants anyway, because I mean, like, I think there's, you look at it, you know, Oh, I'm looking for somebody who's interested in the same things as me. Right. That's, that's the key to success of relationship or is it because they also say opposites attract.

So, I mean, like you almost, you don't necessarily even know what it is. And so maybe, you know, it's not really worth it to try to predict what the other person is wanting because, you know, it may not be that, or they may not even know what it is until they see what it is. Same for yourself, really.

Oh, there's a billion. I mean, that's, that's actually one of the most frustrating things as time goes on is, is that you just, you build this, uh, you know, everybody in that company just had a long list. The, the, the list of things that we wanted to make, uh, just went on forever. Um, and, uh, and it was just a matter of picking which one are we going to try?

So there's, there's all sorts of things that, uh, that we, that we wanted.

Well, I think one of my favorites that I wanted to do was a... I won't go into full detail on it, just in case anybody cares or whatever, but it was basically sort of a group dating bar hopping type of product that I thought would have been pretty cool, trying to use Tinder, which was trying to essentially make Tinder useful at a time when... that Tinder isn't generally useful.

Because, you know, like Tinder, for instance, like one of the, you know, the lower usage days are the days where people are out and busy and they've got things going on. You know, it's the time when people have downtime. That's the time where they really use Tinder.

And so it was, that was sort of the goal is to try to like, try to make Tinder useful at those times when you're out and about with your friends and all of that.

I think so. I think there's a little bit of that slot machine effect of like, you know, let me do one more. I remember back in college, Hot or Not was a thing, you know, it wasn't for dating, but it was for, you know, they added that later. But it was, you know, it was just sort of like, I'm going to, I'll stop once I get one more, when I see one more nine or something like that, you know.

So there was a little bit of that element going on. But I think even just the sort of the swipe action itself ends up sort of having an emotional connection to it, you know, where you're sort of like, oh, hell no. There is that sort of emotional connection to it. I think that interface and everything in general, it kind of feeds into that sort of almost

people watching kind of thing that we we that people like to do um and to me i'm you know i like to think of as a disney fan i always think of uh of mary poppins and uh the uh a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down and so that was you know not necessarily that quote being you know very cognizant of it when we were creating tinder but this idea of like look this is you

dating can be a difficult thing. Um, and, and going through all of these things and let's see if we can try to make that process fun. Um, and sort of disguising the work. Um, and because Tinder, you know, I think compared to other platforms that pre, uh, that, uh, predated Tinder, Tinder was a little bit more of a numbers game.

It was a bit more, go through a whole bunch of people and that's going to ultimately, whether swiping through a whole bunch of people and then going out on dates with a whole bunch of other people, the idea is you're going to increase the chances of finding the person that's right for you. Other platforms were a little bit more focused on diving into the person.

You'd spend more time on those and all. So we had to make something that was fun to get you through more people faster.

Well, I think some of it starts with trying to portray your best self, whether that be evaluate your photos and your profile and everything. Everything on there, evaluate it. you'll notice a lot that people put horrible pictures up on there.

I'm not saying you have to be a model or anything like that, but horrible quality photos, things like that, and run it by your friends, preferably women, who can say either, oh, that's not a good picture of you, or like, yeah, that's not really going to be interesting. a woman.

So I think bringing people in to kind of help evaluate, I know it can feel uncomfortable sometimes to expose yourself to your friends and this side of you or whatever, but I think that's important. You know, and I think also just it's utilizing the tools that are there.

And that, you know, there's a lot of tools that are in there from everything from sort of testing photos to trying to determine which of your photos is the best. There's a lot of things, you know, for adding to your profile and all. And those little things... They can help. Somebody sees that you like something on there that they don't like. Yeah, maybe it'll turn them off. But guess what?

That's fine. It wasn't going to work out with them anyway.

but you're giving other people another reason to swipe right. And try to keep it a little bit lighthearted. Try to add a little bit of fun to your profiles. And then the paid features do work. I'm not saying go spend all your money on them. That's not the goal. And in fact, Tinder, we tried to... We tried to make the paid feature something that it would just break the system if everybody had it.

But if it was something that we felt that everybody would truly benefit from having it, then it shouldn't be a paid feature. Um, so the paid features we kind of saw as, as superpowers. And so they're, they're useful, but I'm not, you know, you can get by just fine without them. So if you don't need it, don't, I'm not suggesting, you know, I make no money off of it now.

So don't, I'm not, I'm not trying to push anybody to go spend all their money on Tinder or any other of the platforms. But, um, But some of them do work. So it's worth trying. And it might be worth trying. Last I read is the average online daters on three platforms. Maybe try a little something different on each platform too, which is your own A-B test.

So I think those are some ways it might help.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of proof that they do work. That doesn't mean to say that things aren't difficult. They're difficult out the bars, too. They're difficult everywhere. And it's a matter of portraying yourself in the best way that you can.

Yeah, I think that's a lot of people end up taking it out on dating services as well as online services in general because of... of either what, you know, the people on there or what they're doing and all. And it's, it's it is kind of what you make of it. It's not to say it's all perfect. It isn't, but it is there, there are certainly ways to have a better profile than that for sure.

Pictures are important.

Absolutely.

There's so many. I can't remember. I'll tell you, though, I think one of my favorite things, though, is that I don't even think it's on Tinder. It was a friend of mine that put on his profile that Kinj has some sort of audio thing, and he used an AI thing. I don't remember if it was Obama or somebody basically vouching for him in the little voice note thing. Yeah.

And it's not like nobody thinks that it's Obama or whoever it was doing it. It's just something that's a little fun and playful, and it's something that he certainly attested to. And so I thought that was...

And I think, and I think it kind of all goes back, you know, you're talking about profiles and injecting fun into it, how important that is because you're essentially trying to give an idea of what going on a date with you is going to be like. And you don't want to go on a date with somebody you're not going to have fun with.

So if you're able to inject some fun into your profile, it gives a hint of like, look, we're going to have some fun. That's just hugely important.

Yeah, you're not going to be miserable all night. I think what most people are just trying to avoid is misery. Yes.

I mean, I float somewhere in between. I think some people might call me introverted. Some people might call me extroverted kind of depends on the situation. But I think, you know, from my own experience, the places where I, my introvertedness kind of showed was that, that sort of, especially in those nervousness. And I think the more you practice the better.

And so, you know, go out on those dates and just feel like, you know, as much as possible and, and, You might even think, hey, look, next five dates, they're going to suck. They're all going to suck or something. Actually, don't. Hope for something good. But at the same time, reduce the pressure on it and just use it as experience to get yourself more comfortable.

And the only way to do that is to not... to not make the stakes high, I think. Practice makes perfect. There's a lot of women out there who are introverted, too. That might be a good thing for you, but at the same time, it's going to make it a little bit harder for you to meet. So somebody's got to step up and try to act a little bit more extroverted to make it work.

Well, it's certainly, you know, there's algorithm. I don't even know what the current algorithm is. It changes over time. Including the ELO thing was real. That was a way of just trying to better match people. But there's a lot of things that end up going into it. And one of the things that really is heavily used, we found over the years, was just like, was recency.

So that one's an important one. You got to keep using it. You can't, and I'm not like, again, I'm not there. I'm not making money off of this, but just telling you kind of how things work is that you have to keep using the thing because we want to show other, like we don't want to match somebody up. we didn't want to match somebody up with somebody who was not going to be there to answer them.

We were able to observe that the better chance of a conversation happening and thus ultimately success on Tinder was that conversation happening, and therefore the more recently somebody used the app, the higher the chance of that happening. So that was actually one of the big levers that really there was. So that's one of those things.

You do have to be active on there in order to get those matches. I'm sure the algorithm can hurt some people and help people, but it's something that they constantly are looking at and trying to adjust because ultimately they want the same thing as you. They want you to meet people.

I know there's conspiracy theories out there about like, no, they don't want you to meet, you know, they just want you on there all the time and that they want you to, they're holding everything back until, you know, start paying them. None of that's true. I mean, the best advertising for Tinder was a successful use case, whether that be hookups or whether that be marriage or whatever.

Those are the people that were going to get the other people on the platform. So we didn't care if we lost some people to a wedding. That was amazing. That was how we were going to get more people in. So, you know, if you blame the app, you're never going to be able to conquer the app.

I will say that like, you know, I'm not saying like everything's going to, you know, it's going to work for you exactly the way you want it to.

And that, you know, there might be something back there that's, you know, getting in your way on an algorithm or whatever, but ultimately it is, if you think that way, it's going to be really hard to, to improve yourself and make it better if you're blaming something else, even if it ends up not being, you know, you, Use it as an opportunity to improve it.

Absolutely.

No, and the better you make your profile too, I don't know what the current algorithm is, but it probably does hurt you to have just one photo. Years ago, we did research too where we found that there were a certain number of photos, and obviously not every photo is equal to the next, but your likelihood of matching increased with every photo that you added to your profile up to a certain extent.

I don't know what that, I don't remember what that number was, but so that was ended up being kind of one of our goals is like, try to encourage users to add photos up to this point, uh, to increase their chances of success. Um, and so I wouldn't be surprised if the algorithm, you know, takes things like that in, uh, you know, factors that in, but ultimately I don't know what it is at the moment.

Uh, it's, you know, it's usually praising. Um, I mean, every once in a while, somebody will say something, but I think most people probably, if they had bad experiences, they might keep it to themselves, but, uh, to be nice to me, I guess. But, um, but no, I've had, there's just so many, uh, you know, weddings. I think the

You know, now there's been so many that I, you know, they kind of just blur together. But like, I just remember some of those early times, you know, when I was, you know, there. And I remember when we first made Tinder that I was like, I was thinking to myself, like, you know, hey, if this doesn't work out, if if I meet somebody or not me, if I'm sorry. Yes. If I meet somebody who met me.

their husband or wife or something 20 years from now, uh, the whole thing will been, you know, worth it. And I'm pretty sure that's going to happen now. And, and it was, it was just really early on, um,

those sort of first people that came up and like, Oh, I met whoever I, uh, actually the first time I had somebody tell me that they were getting married and like the app had not been out that long. That was a little bit scary to me. I'm like, are you, we haven't been around that long. Are you sure you're getting married? But, um, uh, you know, I, I, it's, uh,

And I think some of the stories too that have been really, some of the more proud ones to me that made me more proud of Tinder were the ones where relationships that would not have happened if it weren't for Tinder. Like people, it might be a racial difference or something like that where they're like, well, if you gave me the option to choose Tinder,

I would never have seen the person I would have never have met. Um, there's, uh, there's all sorts of crazy stories like that that have been, um, been pretty special, but it's, uh, But I do get a kick out of it every time somebody tells me. It's like, yeah, I had a part of that. The Jason Kelsey one is the one that hit me the latest, being a fan of Travis Kelsey and all.

And I was just like, oh, my God. that I'm responsible for Travis Kelsey's nephew or niece or whatever. I think he's got nieces.

It is. It is. You know, we also used to have some baby onesies that we used to send out that said Tinder tot on them. So no, that's what made it so special was that you really were changing the lives of people in very meaningful ways. And that, you know, that's what it's all about.

Well, you're doing good work.

Let's do it.

Oh, that's a big swipe off, I guess. Actually, I'm going to cheat. That's a, that's a super like right there.

Uh, To get there, right, for sure. But I've obviously got my love that will hopefully stop them.

I'll swipe right. Swipe right.

Um, eh, you know, I might close the app and come back to it later. How about, um, the Beatles? Oh, the Beatles. I'm a big fan. Swipe right on that for sure.

Um, I'd like some of his songs singing. Sure.

I don't know. I guess right. I don't have anything against the guy. Maybe just don't drink and drive.

Oh, not so much. Obviously, Mickey Mouse. Okay. You know, don't want to make Minnie jealous, so I'd swipe right on her, too. Yeah, I love all the parks, you know, Disneyland, Disney World, and, you know, favorite Disney movies, I guess, probably, I don't know, like Beauty and the Beast and a lot of the Pixar films. Okay. Yeah, there's always something good there.

Ultimate show. Oh, God. Let's see. If I was going, one of my favorite dramas of all time really is one that a lot of people didn't watch is Halt and Catch Fire.

Yeah, it's really good. That and maybe Parenthood, but yeah. Comedies I'd go for, let's see, Arrested Development, not the Netflix stuff. Right. Coupling, the British version. The Parks and Rec I really liked, too. Those are some of my favorites in comedies, I think.

I think I'll have to do something that's on brand that combines Disney Pixar as well as, well, my work, which is just keep swiping, just keep swiping. Finding Nemo instead of swimming.

I'd say two parts to that. One, you know, most relationships probably started with a hookup. So just because people, you know, a large contingent of users on Tinder, I think it's the majority, I don't know the latest numbers or whatnot, but, you know, they're actually looking for a relationship. Doesn't mean they're not. open to a hookup. So there is that.

But on top of that, it is used for everything. The number of marriages that have happened is insane. I get invited to different weddings and stuff like that. And it's really what you make of it. I think some of that stigma really came out of the fact that we launched the app on college campuses. That's sort of where we started. And that's kind of That market, that's kind of what they do.

They're a little bit more hookup-centric and all, and so it kind of came from that. But it really isn't. It's whatever it is that you're looking for, you should be able to find it on Tinder and, of course, the other platforms.

Well, it starts off less pressure. It's a little bit easier to be your more authentic self when it's low pressure like that.

Absolutely. I can relate quite a bit to that. I used to have a really hard time dating before Tinder. And every time I did go out on a date, which was very rare, I would... there would be such pressure on me.

I, you know, self-induced pressure thinking like, oh, you know, is this my, when is, I got to make the best of this because I don't know when the next date's going to be, you know, you know, and trying to make the most of everything to the point like I have literal sweat stains on my shirt and stuff. And then once we built Tinder, it made it easy enough for me to just kind of go on enough dates.

It was like I didn't care so much anymore about is this the one or whatever. It's like all I care about is going out, having a drink or something, meeting this person, and if it works out great, awesome. If it doesn't, I'll go out with somebody tomorrow or next week. It's no big deal. And to the point where it kind of flipped.

So in the future, a lot of times the women I'd go out with would be the ones who were more nervous, and I was the one who was just chill because it was not a big deal to me at that point. Because you finally had options. Yeah, and I wasn't there to hook up or anything. I wasn't putting my entire future into that night.

Yeah, I would say so. I think it's just me being, you know, I think I probably could have got plenty of dates, but I didn't have the confidence or the, you know, just it was me going up and hitting on a girl or something like that was not going to happen generally, which makes it a little hard to, you know, ask somebody out.

But I'm much more comfortable in a digital sense, a little bit of protection of a screen between me and a person to take that initiative then.

You know, I wouldn't say that there were any specific stories that led to it. And a lot of the impetus for Tinder was my co-founder had noticed some of the issues with the existing products that were out there. But, you know, I think just generally the troubles I had made me a little bit more open to the idea of trying to create something. You know, because between just...

meeting people in the world or using things that existed back then like Match.com or OkCupid and all. The kinds of things where I'd go out with people where it's very clear that they were just out for me to buy them a meal and essentially ghosting me afterwards and stuff like that. I think that was from Myspace back in the day. But I think to me, I kind of forget about that stuff.

To me, the most memorable part was just how how absolutely nervous I was. Like I said, I'm not exaggerating about the amount of sweat that I had pouring off of me.

I think whether those things happened or not, whether that would have deterred Tinder from being created, I don't know, but it sure did make me maybe slightly more motivated to figure out a platform that would work for me a little bit better.

Oh, exactly. It was that. It was the fact that I was, you know, I'm sure the first few Tinder dates were much like the, you know, pre-Tinder dates. But after that, it was just like, oh, well, I've got another one tomorrow. And maybe in the back of my mind, I'm even thinking about that date tomorrow instead of the one that I'm on right now.

Not that you should be very focused on whoever you're with or whatever, but I mean, just like, it's just that... There just isn't that pressure. You realize how many people there are out there, especially in a big city like Los Angeles, but you realize how many different options there are and you have a means to find them.

Well, it's you. It's just a matter of pulling you out. These platforms are nothing more than... In many ways, I see them less as dating services and more as introduction services. They're not there for you on the date. They're there to get you introduced to somebody for the date.

I think it's what you make of them and how that affects you and allows you to come out of your shell or express yourself.

Yeah, I mean, I guess to me, you know, it's always just a little bit about, you know, what you do and what your family. I mean, obviously, you know, you don't want to focus too much on, you know, what you do. That sometimes can be a bad thing to some. But, I mean, it is a big part of our life. Yeah.

you know, and try to figure out, um, the other person's interests and just sort of, you know, for me, it was generally just trying to, to keep it sort of natural. The most, you know, trying to force something was where it probably wasn't going to go well. Um, and so it was, um, Yeah, it's just trying to learn about the person.

And if the other person's interested and or if they're good at it, they're going to be asking you a lot of questions. And at some point, you just really have to figure out like, wait, am I answering too many questions? I should probably be engaging the other person more too and learning.