Jonathan Swan

Donald Trump was criticizing him behind his back, saying, you know, he could have told me about all this stuff. You know, he was seeing the negative stories. He wasn't happy about them. And so Trump actually starts to think about picking a replacement for Hegseth. The ultimate sign that he's done with you. Totally. And he started to court Ron DeSantis.

Donald Trump was criticizing him behind his back, saying, you know, he could have told me about all this stuff. You know, he was seeing the negative stories. He wasn't happy about them. And so Trump actually starts to think about picking a replacement for Hegseth. The ultimate sign that he's done with you. Totally. And he started to court Ron DeSantis.

They didn't only defeat him. It was personal, as you say. And for many people on Trump's team, it's deeply personal. Susie Wiles, who's going to come in as Trump's chief of staff, used to work for Ron DeSantis, left on very bad terms with him. There are others on the team who used to work for him. None of them like Ron DeSantis. So...

They didn't only defeat him. It was personal, as you say. And for many people on Trump's team, it's deeply personal. Susie Wiles, who's going to come in as Trump's chief of staff, used to work for Ron DeSantis, left on very bad terms with him. There are others on the team who used to work for him. None of them like Ron DeSantis. So...

As soon as Trump's advisers realise that he's actually serious about the DeSantis idea, there is a panic. Many people go into gear of how do we kill this? At the same time, there are others in Trump's orbit, some of the same people, but different people like Steve Bannon and others, who thought that...

As soon as Trump's advisers realise that he's actually serious about the DeSantis idea, there is a panic. Many people go into gear of how do we kill this? At the same time, there are others in Trump's orbit, some of the same people, but different people like Steve Bannon and others, who thought that...

There was actually something larger at play that if he allowed Pete Hegseth to be blocked by Senate Republicans, that would set the tone for the rest of his administration. That was the argument that they were making to Trump indirectly, in some cases directly. But basically what they were saying was, you already let one person go.

There was actually something larger at play that if he allowed Pete Hegseth to be blocked by Senate Republicans, that would set the tone for the rest of his administration. That was the argument that they were making to Trump indirectly, in some cases directly. But basically what they were saying was, you already let one person go.

Matt Gaetz, right? Trump put up Matt Gaetz for Attorney General, which horrified Republicans. And within a very short period of time, it became clear that he wasn't going to have the votes and he quit. People like Steve Bannon and others in Trump's orbit thought that was a really bad message. They thought at a minimum, strategically, they should have kept Matt Gaetz in because...

Matt Gaetz, right? Trump put up Matt Gaetz for Attorney General, which horrified Republicans. And within a very short period of time, it became clear that he wasn't going to have the votes and he quit. People like Steve Bannon and others in Trump's orbit thought that was a really bad message. They thought at a minimum, strategically, they should have kept Matt Gaetz in because...

Him soaking up all the media attention and controversy actually is useful because Trump has a whole bunch of other controversial picks and they can slide through with less media attention. But also letting him quit was a bad idea in terms of setting the terms of Trump's return to Washington. in terms of the power template, in terms of Trump saying, I'm the king around here.

Him soaking up all the media attention and controversy actually is useful because Trump has a whole bunch of other controversial picks and they can slide through with less media attention. But also letting him quit was a bad idea in terms of setting the terms of Trump's return to Washington. in terms of the power template, in terms of Trump saying, I'm the king around here.

So what they wanted to do with Hegseth, they decided very quickly, like within 24 hours, was we're going to turn him into a cause. We're going to make him sort of a Brett Kavanaugh type figure. And we are going to make this a litmus test for Republicans defying Donald Trump. And if you dare step out of line... the mob is going to come for you, the online mob, the pressure, the constituents.

So what they wanted to do with Hegseth, they decided very quickly, like within 24 hours, was we're going to turn him into a cause. We're going to make him sort of a Brett Kavanaugh type figure. And we are going to make this a litmus test for Republicans defying Donald Trump. And if you dare step out of line... the mob is going to come for you, the online mob, the pressure, the constituents.

We are going to make you toxic with the Republican base.

We are going to make you toxic with the Republican base.

Well, two things happened. One, Pete Hegseth and his team decide they're going to abandon the sort of traditional Washington playbook of keeping your head down, talking to senators, but not making this a huge spectacle. Trump wanted to see a spectacle. He picked Hegseth in the first place because he liked watching him on Fox News. So Trump encouraged Hegseth to get out there.

Well, two things happened. One, Pete Hegseth and his team decide they're going to abandon the sort of traditional Washington playbook of keeping your head down, talking to senators, but not making this a huge spectacle. Trump wanted to see a spectacle. He picked Hegseth in the first place because he liked watching him on Fox News. So Trump encouraged Hegseth to get out there.

Hegseth does these sort of defiant interviews and performances.

Hegseth does these sort of defiant interviews and performances.