Josh Clark

had been so thoroughly botched that it became day one of a 51-day siege where the ATF and then eventually the FBI surrounded Mount Carmel and were trying to get the Branch Davidians to come out.

And the Branch Davidians were like, no, we're not coming out.

You guys go away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like a siege of a castle up on a cliff.

You're not in the best position unless you're in the castle.

Oh, yeah.

It was also made almost entirely of like plywood, right?

There was some concrete to it, but wasn't the most part, wasn't it wood?

Yeah, I think that's the thing, Chuck.

I'm so conflicted about this.

He was genuinely a bad person for sexually abusing kids.

They were preparing for the end of days, but at the same time, he was aware enough of what they must have looked like to outsiders, like a crazy cult or something like that, that he wasn't out of his mind, it seems like, at any given point in time.

He was just kind of like an average dude saying,

who had kind of worked his way into this really unique situation and then abused it in many, many different ways.

But he wasn't crazy.

It wasn't like talking to Charles Manson.

Imagine trying to negotiate with Charles Manson.