Julia Shaw

And so the question is, what leads people, clever people, these aren't idiots.

These are like clever engineers who are literally working on emissions.

Like they know exactly what these emissions do to people.

They know exactly how harmful they are.

What leads people like that to lie about it, to create these things and to continue lying when they are caught?

And so that is one of the cases I cover in it.

And I'm looking at it more as a case study for this kind of crime, which is the sort of corporate collective crime and the lying and just what leads people in these settings to lie and to cover up each other's crimes and to conform to these new norms, these harmful environmental norms.

And so I look at it

in that way.

And then in other chapters, I look at like people go undercover and uncover poaching gangs.

And there it's somewhat procedural where it's more, I didn't know that there were undercover agents infiltrating poaching gangs.

I didn't know that Interpol was involved in all of these kinds of environmental crime and how.

And it gets quite exciting in some of these cases where you really see the people who are trying to hold people accountable.

So what I found most interesting in researching for green crime, so I was speaking to people from the United Nations who are doing these huge research reports on things like the international trafficking in wildlife crime.

I was talking to people who were infiltrating at the EIA, the Environmental Investigation Agency.

It's like,

sort of undercover police of the earth, and they're infiltrating these organized crime groups, these gangs that are involved in poaching and other activities.

I was talking to this Interpol agent, and I think all of these people were talking about very different ways of measuring environmental crime and of responding to it.

And so depending on who you talk to, the answer will be very different.

How do we fight crime?