Julie Ireton

It's under the direction of our fearless leader, Mr. Doug Walker.

It's under the direction of our fearless leader, Mr. Doug Walker.

For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca.

For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca.

This is a CBC Podcast.

This is a CBC Podcast.

And it wasn't just during school time.

And it wasn't just during school time.

The music teacher also introduced Anne-Marie to another band, a professional one.

The music teacher also introduced Anne-Marie to another band, a professional one.

The Royals is a Canadian military band. It still operates out of Fort York, the historic military site in downtown Toronto. The band parades through the city on special occasions, like this one. This outdoor performance is from a YouTube video in 2015. They wear formal red military uniforms, shiny boots and those big bearskin hats like the guards at Buckingham Palace.

The Royals is a Canadian military band. It still operates out of Fort York, the historic military site in downtown Toronto. The band parades through the city on special occasions, like this one. This outdoor performance is from a YouTube video in 2015. They wear formal red military uniforms, shiny boots and those big bearskin hats like the guards at Buckingham Palace.

The band sometimes plays for royalty.

The band sometimes plays for royalty.

But it meant seeing her music teacher all summer, even when school was out. He would drive her to practices and take her home.

But it meant seeing her music teacher all summer, even when school was out. He would drive her to practices and take her home.

She was isolated from her teen friends, and it was the beginning of a profound loneliness that would dog her for decades to come. She needed a father. She needed support, and her teacher was providing flimsy scaffolding. It wasn't really love, and there would be no marriage. He was already living with the woman who would become his current wife, a fellow teacher.

She was isolated from her teen friends, and it was the beginning of a profound loneliness that would dog her for decades to come. She needed a father. She needed support, and her teacher was providing flimsy scaffolding. It wasn't really love, and there would be no marriage. He was already living with the woman who would become his current wife, a fellow teacher.

After more than a year of sex on band trips, in cars and in closets, this teenager had to escape. The only way I could get out was to quit high school. She didn't see the teacher again and she didn't graduate.

After more than a year of sex on band trips, in cars and in closets, this teenager had to escape. The only way I could get out was to quit high school. She didn't see the teacher again and she didn't graduate.

She had very good marks. She was part of the band. But no one asked why she just stopped going to school.

She had very good marks. She was part of the band. But no one asked why she just stopped going to school.

She was still a teen. and needed support, she found it in another man. Someone about a dozen years older.

She was still a teen. and needed support, she found it in another man. Someone about a dozen years older.

Life got back on track. She completed two degrees, then a master's, most of it part-time.

Life got back on track. She completed two degrees, then a master's, most of it part-time.

So she worked as a tax auditor. She raised her son, got divorced, then remarried, then divorced again. She moved across the country. Relationships with men were difficult. But she found herself in her work.

So she worked as a tax auditor. She raised her son, got divorced, then remarried, then divorced again. She moved across the country. Relationships with men were difficult. But she found herself in her work.

She was in a good place at home and work. One day she typed the teacher's name into a search.

She was in a good place at home and work. One day she typed the teacher's name into a search.

About 60 folding chairs encircled the conductor.

About 60 folding chairs encircled the conductor.

Another teenager. A student at another school. He'd been banned from teaching.

Another teenager. A student at another school. He'd been banned from teaching.

The same story as hers. Anne-Marie wasn't alone. There was at least one other woman out there who knew how all this felt. The online report reveals the band teacher had sex with this teen student over and over again, more than 56 times. At school, in cars. The Ontario College of Teachers, the profession's regulator, found him guilty of professional misconduct. But the girl's name is blacked out.

The same story as hers. Anne-Marie wasn't alone. There was at least one other woman out there who knew how all this felt. The online report reveals the band teacher had sex with this teen student over and over again, more than 56 times. At school, in cars. The Ontario College of Teachers, the profession's regulator, found him guilty of professional misconduct. But the girl's name is blacked out.

By this stage, Anne-Marie was married to husband number three. Together they had a daughter, and that little girl had musical talent.

By this stage, Anne-Marie was married to husband number three. Together they had a daughter, and that little girl had musical talent.

But then her daughter joined her high school band and convinced Anne-Marie to pick up the horn again. And that takes us back to that first band practice and the night she saw the ghost.

But then her daughter joined her high school band and convinced Anne-Marie to pick up the horn again. And that takes us back to that first band practice and the night she saw the ghost.

It was easier to imagine her former music teacher dead. She was able to play music again.

It was easier to imagine her former music teacher dead. She was able to play music again.

She had no intention of regressing.

She had no intention of regressing.

Anne-Marie and the dog are getting restless. I'm tired. Yeah, I'm starting to lose it. We leave it there for the day. I'm asking the questions, but Anne-Marie is in control. After what she's been through, I have to give her that. I want to make this as comfortable as possible. Arch, be quiet. Finding Doug Walker, the former music teacher, is not difficult.

Anne-Marie and the dog are getting restless. I'm tired. Yeah, I'm starting to lose it. We leave it there for the day. I'm asking the questions, but Anne-Marie is in control. After what she's been through, I have to give her that. I want to make this as comfortable as possible. Arch, be quiet. Finding Doug Walker, the former music teacher, is not difficult.

I locate his address and send him a registered letter. He emails me back right away. He doesn't deny having sex with Anne Marie. But Walker contends the relationship with Anne Marie was consensual. Not surprisingly, he doesn't want to do an interview with me. But we're moving ahead with this investigation. And there is much more to come. He picked the wrong girls. We're smart. We are assertive.

I locate his address and send him a registered letter. He emails me back right away. He doesn't deny having sex with Anne Marie. But Walker contends the relationship with Anne Marie was consensual. Not surprisingly, he doesn't want to do an interview with me. But we're moving ahead with this investigation. And there is much more to come. He picked the wrong girls. We're smart. We are assertive.

We kept going through the shit. Next time on The Band Teacher. Anne-Marie goes for coffee with the former band leader. And so I basically spent the whole week deciding what I was going to say to him. And she thinks going back to her old school might help kickstart her own memory and her healing.

We kept going through the shit. Next time on The Band Teacher. Anne-Marie goes for coffee with the former band leader. And so I basically spent the whole week deciding what I was going to say to him. And she thinks going back to her old school might help kickstart her own memory and her healing.

The band Teacher is investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Alison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Eve Saint-Laurent is our legal advisor. Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer and Jen White provided valuable production advice.

The band Teacher is investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Alison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Eve Saint-Laurent is our legal advisor. Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer and Jen White provided valuable production advice.

Special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. The managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you want to binge the whole series, subscribe to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description or binge listen for free by logging in to CBC Listen. If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help.

Special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. The managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you want to binge the whole series, subscribe to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description or binge listen for free by logging in to CBC Listen. If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help.

Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault centre or rape crisis centre in your area.

Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault centre or rape crisis centre in your area.

Almost believed that he wasn't really there. The band teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of The Band Played On. It's a new series and a different investigation. Anne-Marie Robinson is haunted, tormented by something that happened to her when she was in high school. She alleges rape. He says it was consensual sex. I never resisted because I was like, I was under his control.

Almost believed that he wasn't really there. The band teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of The Band Played On. It's a new series and a different investigation. Anne-Marie Robinson is haunted, tormented by something that happened to her when she was in high school. She alleges rape. He says it was consensual sex. I never resisted because I was like, I was under his control.

Our story unfolds in Toronto, Canada's biggest city. But this journey will take us across the country and well beyond this one woman. I knew she existed. I knew someone existed. There's more of us. Something happened to me too. Wow. Me too. I just get angry that what brought us together was him. Just that somebody could be this diabolical and that other people let it happen.

Our story unfolds in Toronto, Canada's biggest city. But this journey will take us across the country and well beyond this one woman. I knew she existed. I knew someone existed. There's more of us. Something happened to me too. Wow. Me too. I just get angry that what brought us together was him. Just that somebody could be this diabolical and that other people let it happen.

Questions will be raised. Many will be answered. How many girls at how many schools? Who knew? Why didn't those in positions of power prevent this man from getting too close and having sex with teen girls? And what's the recourse for women who are victims of historical sexual abuse?

Questions will be raised. Many will be answered. How many girls at how many schools? Who knew? Why didn't those in positions of power prevent this man from getting too close and having sex with teen girls? And what's the recourse for women who are victims of historical sexual abuse?

Anne-Marie Robinson wants to regain control and fix systemic flaws. And she's just the kind of person who can pull it off.

Anne-Marie Robinson wants to regain control and fix systemic flaws. And she's just the kind of person who can pull it off.

Along the way, she'll gather a posse to help her.

Along the way, she'll gather a posse to help her.

Tell me your name. Tell me, you know, what city we're in and I'll get a level on your voice.

Tell me your name. Tell me, you know, what city we're in and I'll get a level on your voice.

This series contains adult content and candid accounts of sexual abuse. Take care in listening.

This series contains adult content and candid accounts of sexual abuse. Take care in listening.

It's October 2021. And we're sitting in my backyard. My dog is being taunted by the neighborhood squirrels. You can edit all this, right? Archie the Aussie Doodle is actually a good distraction, an unofficial therapy dog. Anne-Marie is a bit nervous. Her shoulders are hunched. Her dark brown bangs hide the top of her eyes, like a shield. She's in her early 60s, but looks younger.

It's October 2021. And we're sitting in my backyard. My dog is being taunted by the neighborhood squirrels. You can edit all this, right? Archie the Aussie Doodle is actually a good distraction, an unofficial therapy dog. Anne-Marie is a bit nervous. Her shoulders are hunched. Her dark brown bangs hide the top of her eyes, like a shield. She's in her early 60s, but looks younger.

Anne Marie sought me out. And we've spoken several times since she first reached out to me in 2020. We took our time to build trust. I didn't want to rush Anne Marie into telling her story. So this is a first for the microphone. She's ready.

Anne Marie sought me out. And we've spoken several times since she first reached out to me in 2020. We took our time to build trust. I didn't want to rush Anne Marie into telling her story. So this is a first for the microphone. She's ready.

She tracked down Peter Hamer. I told his story in the last season of The Band Played On. In that series, I discovered more than 50 victims of sexual abuse. Three teachers from one school preyed on those teens over decades. Peter is one of those survivors. I found answers. He found closure. Anne-Marie comes from another school in a different city, but she wants to take that journey.

She tracked down Peter Hamer. I told his story in the last season of The Band Played On. In that series, I discovered more than 50 victims of sexual abuse. Three teachers from one school preyed on those teens over decades. Peter is one of those survivors. I found answers. He found closure. Anne-Marie comes from another school in a different city, but she wants to take that journey.

Peter has words of warning.

Peter has words of warning.

And while this season will touch on similar themes, I'm already surprised at how different the attitudes, responses, and excuses are in cases involving girls rather than boys. I envision different bumps and larger craters along this road with Anne-Marie.

And while this season will touch on similar themes, I'm already surprised at how different the attitudes, responses, and excuses are in cases involving girls rather than boys. I envision different bumps and larger craters along this road with Anne-Marie.

I've done my homework too. Googled Anne-Marie's name right after her first call. I found government reports, photos, media clippings, plenty of information about her, and videos.

I've done my homework too. Googled Anne-Marie's name right after her first call. I found government reports, photos, media clippings, plenty of information about her, and videos.

There's a bittersweet history between Anne-Marie Robinson and the French horn. It goes back to her days in high school band. After I left school, I just put it down and never touched it again. In 2014, Anne-Marie's daughter was in her high school band. I probably had to have mentioned to her a few times that I played French horn in high school.

There's a bittersweet history between Anne-Marie Robinson and the French horn. It goes back to her days in high school band. After I left school, I just put it down and never touched it again. In 2014, Anne-Marie's daughter was in her high school band. I probably had to have mentioned to her a few times that I played French horn in high school.

Anne-Marie Robinson was a big deal in the Canadian government, a top bureaucrat. She often presented to politicians in parliamentary committees.

Anne-Marie Robinson was a big deal in the Canadian government, a top bureaucrat. She often presented to politicians in parliamentary committees.

The commission oversees the federal workforce. It's not a union. It's part of the government. So it's kind of like an auditor general because it's basically a regulator of the staffing authority. And she was in charge. Watching these videos, it's almost like looking at a different person. She wears confidence with her fitted business suits.

The commission oversees the federal workforce. It's not a union. It's part of the government. So it's kind of like an auditor general because it's basically a regulator of the staffing authority. And she was in charge. Watching these videos, it's almost like looking at a different person. She wears confidence with her fitted business suits.

In fluent bureaucraties, she rattles off stats, methods and protocols in two official languages. But at some point that policy wonk was overtaken by dark painful memories. Now she's ready to talk about what brought her here. So on my deck wrangling the dog and the microphone I start asking questions. I need to know everything. But I know we'll need to take it slowly. Tell me where you grew up.

In fluent bureaucraties, she rattles off stats, methods and protocols in two official languages. But at some point that policy wonk was overtaken by dark painful memories. Now she's ready to talk about what brought her here. So on my deck wrangling the dog and the microphone I start asking questions. I need to know everything. But I know we'll need to take it slowly. Tell me where you grew up.

She was the youngest of three. She has an older sister, a brother in the middle. They all lived with their mom in public housing. She hardly knew her dad. Anne-Marie attended Eastern High School of Commerce in Toronto's Danforth area. She did well in all her classes, but music was the draw.

She was the youngest of three. She has an older sister, a brother in the middle. They all lived with their mom in public housing. She hardly knew her dad. Anne-Marie attended Eastern High School of Commerce in Toronto's Danforth area. She did well in all her classes, but music was the draw.

What was good about it? What did you enjoy about it?

What was good about it? What did you enjoy about it?

Her music teacher, Doug Walker. Mr. Walker.

Her music teacher, Doug Walker. Mr. Walker.

It's clear from photos Anne-Marie was an attractive teenager. She dressed up for band. Our band uniform was a blazer and a shirt.

It's clear from photos Anne-Marie was an attractive teenager. She dressed up for band. Our band uniform was a blazer and a shirt.

Her daughter was 15, smart, innocent, exactly how a teen girl should be.

Her daughter was 15, smart, innocent, exactly how a teen girl should be.

High school bands demand commitment, practices, classes, concerts, and trips. And those trips are coveted. Kids get away from their parents. They stay in hotels. They play in front of audiences and in competitions. Anne-Marie tells me about one band trip in 1977.

High school bands demand commitment, practices, classes, concerts, and trips. And those trips are coveted. Kids get away from their parents. They stay in hotels. They play in front of audiences and in competitions. Anne-Marie tells me about one band trip in 1977.

She was 16. They were a few hours drive from home in a city about halfway between Ottawa and Toronto.

She was 16. They were a few hours drive from home in a city about halfway between Ottawa and Toronto.

Initially, other kids were there in the teacher's hotel room. Then they left.

Initially, other kids were there in the teacher's hotel room. Then they left.

Anne-Marie's first time would be with her music teacher.

Anne-Marie's first time would be with her music teacher.

Did any of them suspect what had gone on between you and the teacher?

Did any of them suspect what had gone on between you and the teacher?

That story, the teacher being punched by an angry father, would lay the foundation for what came next. She didn't want him to get in trouble.

That story, the teacher being punched by an angry father, would lay the foundation for what came next. She didn't want him to get in trouble.

Anne-Marie says she developed a dependency on him. He told her it was love and at the time she thought she was in love too.

Anne-Marie says she developed a dependency on him. He told her it was love and at the time she thought she was in love too.

She remembers unwelcome sex with the teacher continued. in his car after practices, on other out-of-town band trips, over and over again. She was 16, above the legal age to consent, and at the time, 1977, no laws prevented a teacher from having sex with his student, if there was consent.

She remembers unwelcome sex with the teacher continued. in his car after practices, on other out-of-town band trips, over and over again. She was 16, above the legal age to consent, and at the time, 1977, no laws prevented a teacher from having sex with his student, if there was consent.

She was in a good place in 2014 in a top job in the Canadian federal government. President of the Public Service Commission. And she had a shiny new French horn. It came back to me quickly and I got, you know, reasonably good fast. Anne-Marie decided to join a community band. They practiced in a church basement. She arrived at the first rehearsal nervous.

She was in a good place in 2014 in a top job in the Canadian federal government. President of the Public Service Commission. And she had a shiny new French horn. It came back to me quickly and I got, you know, reasonably good fast. Anne-Marie decided to join a community band. They practiced in a church basement. She arrived at the first rehearsal nervous.

She says she always felt under his control.

She says she always felt under his control.

The Band Teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of The Band Played On. Up until now, we've talked to a lot of people who were still kids when a teacher was having sex with teen girls. She had no adult in her corner.

The Band Teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of The Band Played On. Up until now, we've talked to a lot of people who were still kids when a teacher was having sex with teen girls. She had no adult in her corner.

Yeah. Can't answer those questions, right? But it's important to raise them. Jackie is disappointed in Christy's response, to say the least. It wasn't what she wanted or expected to hear. But I'm not finished searching for other adults who were around at the time. The lack of oversight by people in charge continues to baffle Anne-Marie Robinson.

Yeah. Can't answer those questions, right? But it's important to raise them. Jackie is disappointed in Christy's response, to say the least. It wasn't what she wanted or expected to hear. But I'm not finished searching for other adults who were around at the time. The lack of oversight by people in charge continues to baffle Anne-Marie Robinson.

I was in shock when I spoke to him. Anne-Marie recently discovered she actually knows the person who became Doug Walker's boss in 1987. That was right after Ali reported him. Walker moved to Stouffville District Secondary School, not too far from Markham High in the same school board district. And someone else was in charge of the music department there.

I was in shock when I spoke to him. Anne-Marie recently discovered she actually knows the person who became Doug Walker's boss in 1987. That was right after Ali reported him. Walker moved to Stouffville District Secondary School, not too far from Markham High in the same school board district. And someone else was in charge of the music department there.

He was just, I feel like he was kind of used and in the dark in this whole thing. Anne-Marie met that man when she treated herself to a new French horn.

He was just, I feel like he was kind of used and in the dark in this whole thing. Anne-Marie met that man when she treated herself to a new French horn.

So I bought my horn from him. To Anne-Marie, Peter Samuelson was just a man who knew a lot about French horns. But Peter was also the head of music at Stouffville District Secondary School in 1987.

So I bought my horn from him. To Anne-Marie, Peter Samuelson was just a man who knew a lot about French horns. But Peter was also the head of music at Stouffville District Secondary School in 1987.

Then Anne-Marie told him to expect a call from me. Hello? Hi, is this Peter Samuelson? Yeah. Hi, it's Julie Ireton calling from CBC. How are you? Yeah, good. He's happy to chat, but he has trouble hearing the result of teaching music in small, echoey rooms for decades. We do our best to communicate over the phone.

Then Anne-Marie told him to expect a call from me. Hello? Hi, is this Peter Samuelson? Yeah. Hi, it's Julie Ireton calling from CBC. How are you? Yeah, good. He's happy to chat, but he has trouble hearing the result of teaching music in small, echoey rooms for decades. We do our best to communicate over the phone.

In 1987, Peter Samuelson was not told why Doug Walker was leaving Markham District High School and why he was coming to his school.

In 1987, Peter Samuelson was not told why Doug Walker was leaving Markham District High School and why he was coming to his school.

He means what had really happened. Peter tells me what he knew back then.

He means what had really happened. Peter tells me what he knew back then.

Now we hear from the adults.

Now we hear from the adults.

But then something else about this new music teacher caught Peter Samuelson's attention.

But then something else about this new music teacher caught Peter Samuelson's attention.

Walker went on to lead four more music departments. Of course, this pattern of moving from school to school all started decades earlier. It all started at Port Credit Secondary School, his first job. Former students say he left before that school year was over. We're about to meet the man who knows why. The man survivors refer to as Punch Daddy. It's late fall 2022. I'm in the driver's seat.

Walker went on to lead four more music departments. Of course, this pattern of moving from school to school all started decades earlier. It all started at Port Credit Secondary School, his first job. Former students say he left before that school year was over. We're about to meet the man who knows why. The man survivors refer to as Punch Daddy. It's late fall 2022. I'm in the driver's seat.

Anne-Marie is the navigator. You go straight. It's been a long drive. We're fueled on fancy lattes and both a bit nervous about where we're headed next.

Anne-Marie is the navigator. You go straight. It's been a long drive. We're fueled on fancy lattes and both a bit nervous about where we're headed next.

After the survivors and I met up last summer, I started my search for the man who punched the music teacher. It took me a few months to make contact. We fondly call him Punch Daddy. Sam still lives close to Port Credit Secondary School. It's the same house he's lived in for decades. In 1975, Sam's daughter was 16 and in Walker's band. She had sexual encounters with the music teacher.

After the survivors and I met up last summer, I started my search for the man who punched the music teacher. It took me a few months to make contact. We fondly call him Punch Daddy. Sam still lives close to Port Credit Secondary School. It's the same house he's lived in for decades. In 1975, Sam's daughter was 16 and in Walker's band. She had sexual encounters with the music teacher.

She recently died.

She recently died.

I sent Sam an email. Then he called me. Only a week has gone by and here we are.

I sent Sam an email. Then he called me. Only a week has gone by and here we are.

Before we get to Sam's, Anne-Marie has a quick errand. She doesn't want to arrive empty-handed.

Before we get to Sam's, Anne-Marie has a quick errand. She doesn't want to arrive empty-handed.

He did something. He did something. Finally, an adult who reported the teacher. Here we go. Sam greets us with warm handshakes. He's about six feet tall. He wears leather moccasins and a fleece sweater. He's quite limber for someone in his late 80s. This is Anne-Marie. Anne-Marie, do you have another one? I'll just check on the tea. Okay, thank you. Sure. Sam heads to the kitchen.

He did something. He did something. Finally, an adult who reported the teacher. Here we go. Sam greets us with warm handshakes. He's about six feet tall. He wears leather moccasins and a fleece sweater. He's quite limber for someone in his late 80s. This is Anne-Marie. Anne-Marie, do you have another one? I'll just check on the tea. Okay, thank you. Sure. Sam heads to the kitchen.

Anne-Marie and I sit down in the living room, look at each other in disbelief. It seems surreal that we are here. But we both dread the conversation that's to come. We know it will be painful.

Anne-Marie and I sit down in the living room, look at each other in disbelief. It seems surreal that we are here. But we both dread the conversation that's to come. We know it will be painful.

I just take mine black. I take black too. Sam's house is spotless. He's a widower and now lives alone. He brings out a pretty porcelain cream and sugar set, mugs, napkins, a plate of cookies, and our cupcakes. Sam's voice cracks as he talks about his family, points to all the photos around the room. His grandchildren, his daughter who died.

I just take mine black. I take black too. Sam's house is spotless. He's a widower and now lives alone. He brings out a pretty porcelain cream and sugar set, mugs, napkins, a plate of cookies, and our cupcakes. Sam's voice cracks as he talks about his family, points to all the photos around the room. His grandchildren, his daughter who died.

She can't tell us her story, so I'm protecting their privacy. Sam is a pseudonym.

She can't tell us her story, so I'm protecting their privacy. Sam is a pseudonym.

We chat for a while. Then it's time to discuss why we've come. Ann Marie tells Sam her story.

We chat for a while. Then it's time to discuss why we've come. Ann Marie tells Sam her story.

The pieces of the puzzle are falling into place. Episode 8, The Punch. Alison Hall sways to the music, holds her microphone like a crooner. She's 16 and she's got the solo. It's 1987. The Dixieland band at Markham High plays backup.

The pieces of the puzzle are falling into place. Episode 8, The Punch. Alison Hall sways to the music, holds her microphone like a crooner. She's 16 and she's got the solo. It's 1987. The Dixieland band at Markham High plays backup.

He says sexual encounters had occurred between the music teacher and his daughter. Soon after Sam found out, he and his daughter went to the high school. They met with the principal.

He says sexual encounters had occurred between the music teacher and his daughter. Soon after Sam found out, he and his daughter went to the high school. They met with the principal.

When they left the principal's office, Sam was fuming. What the teacher had done with his daughter was unforgivable. Sam, his daughter, and the music teacher walked across the school parking lot. Then Sam says, he swung around in fury. His fist met the teacher's face.

When they left the principal's office, Sam was fuming. What the teacher had done with his daughter was unforgivable. Sam, his daughter, and the music teacher walked across the school parking lot. Then Sam says, he swung around in fury. His fist met the teacher's face.

And believing her.

And believing her.

But we now know the teacher's next move was to Anne-Marie's school. Anne-Marie does not blame Sam for that. She only has gratitude. Can I give you a hug?

But we now know the teacher's next move was to Anne-Marie's school. Anne-Marie does not blame Sam for that. She only has gratitude. Can I give you a hug?

Sam shakes both bony fists in the air. Normally, Anne-Marie doesn't show emotion. She doesn't cry, seems robotic at times. But today, I see a shift. She's letting her guard down. I see a grateful, empathetic, strong woman.

Sam shakes both bony fists in the air. Normally, Anne-Marie doesn't show emotion. She doesn't cry, seems robotic at times. But today, I see a shift. She's letting her guard down. I see a grateful, empathetic, strong woman.

You know, having met you, though, you just don't, I bet you that's the only man you ever punched.

You know, having met you, though, you just don't, I bet you that's the only man you ever punched.

We help clean up the mugs and plates. Sam insists we take some cookies for the road. Thank you so much. Great to meet you.

We help clean up the mugs and plates. Sam insists we take some cookies for the road. Thank you so much. Great to meet you.

Yeah, for sure. Very good advice. It's hard to leave him. Yeah, we will.

Yeah, for sure. Very good advice. It's hard to leave him. Yeah, we will.

You take care.

You take care.

Bye-bye for now.

Bye-bye for now.

It's almost like Sam was ahead of his time. In 1975, he says he saw a man, a teacher, take advantage of his teen daughter. Sam did something. He told authorities. But it appears the administration did not investigate further to see if anything had happened to other girls at the school. Siobhan, the girl the music teacher called Jailbait, says no one reached out to her.

It's almost like Sam was ahead of his time. In 1975, he says he saw a man, a teacher, take advantage of his teen daughter. Sam did something. He told authorities. But it appears the administration did not investigate further to see if anything had happened to other girls at the school. Siobhan, the girl the music teacher called Jailbait, says no one reached out to her.

Then Walker got a new job at a new school. The punch didn't stop him. Next time on The Banned Teacher. Hearing Sam's story gives another victim the confidence she needs to take a big step. And if I'm the only person who falls under the new laws, then I do have a responsibility.

Then Walker got a new job at a new school. The punch didn't stop him. Next time on The Banned Teacher. Hearing Sam's story gives another victim the confidence she needs to take a big step. And if I'm the only person who falls under the new laws, then I do have a responsibility.

You've been listening to The Band Teacher, ad-free on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for subscribing. The band Teacher is investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Alison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Eve Saint-Laurent is our legal advisor.

You've been listening to The Band Teacher, ad-free on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for subscribing. The band Teacher is investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Alison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Eve Saint-Laurent is our legal advisor.

Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer, and Jen White provided valuable production advice. Special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. And the managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you like this podcast, I have another original investigation that might interest you. That's the band played on season one.

Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer, and Jen White provided valuable production advice. Special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. And the managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you like this podcast, I have another original investigation that might interest you. That's the band played on season one.

All of the episodes are available right now wherever you get your podcasts. If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help. Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault center, or rape crisis center in your area.

All of the episodes are available right now wherever you get your podcasts. If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help. Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault center, or rape crisis center in your area.

Alison Hall posted this YouTube video. The music teacher, Doug Walker, plays trombone alongside his teen students in this band.

Alison Hall posted this YouTube video. The music teacher, Doug Walker, plays trombone alongside his teen students in this band.

There are a few Allisons in this story, so I'm going to refer to Allison Hall by her last name. Hall lives in Alberta. In 1987, this crooner was good friends with Allie. She's the strawberry blonde. She told us her story about being slut-shamed in the last episode. Back in 87, both Ali and Hall were on the high school band trip to Montreal.

There are a few Allisons in this story, so I'm going to refer to Allison Hall by her last name. Hall lives in Alberta. In 1987, this crooner was good friends with Allie. She's the strawberry blonde. She told us her story about being slut-shamed in the last episode. Back in 87, both Ali and Hall were on the high school band trip to Montreal.

And Hall remembers the night Ali ended up in the music teacher's hotel room.

And Hall remembers the night Ali ended up in the music teacher's hotel room.

It was very exciting for us. There was a whole group of girls. They ran into the music teacher.

It was very exciting for us. There was a whole group of girls. They ran into the music teacher.

Hall says some of them went back to the hotel, but she lost track of Ali. Another former Markham High band member, Leslie McMillan, picks up the story from later that night.

Hall says some of them went back to the hotel, but she lost track of Ali. Another former Markham High band member, Leslie McMillan, picks up the story from later that night.

Leslie now lives outside Toronto. She and Ali still get together when they can. Leslie kept this story secret for decades.

Leslie now lives outside Toronto. She and Ali still get together when they can. Leslie kept this story secret for decades.

What did you think when you got that note from me out of the blue?

What did you think when you got that note from me out of the blue?

She says none of them talked about it again until May 2022. That's when my online and broadcast stories came out about Anne-Marie Robinson and Jeannie McKay. In fact, the article was published 35 years to the day Allie ended up in her teacher's hotel room. The timing freaked them out. Leslie talked to Allie. Then Leslie spoke to her mother.

She says none of them talked about it again until May 2022. That's when my online and broadcast stories came out about Anne-Marie Robinson and Jeannie McKay. In fact, the article was published 35 years to the day Allie ended up in her teacher's hotel room. The timing freaked them out. Leslie talked to Allie. Then Leslie spoke to her mother.

This is Sam. He's 88. He has sad eyes.

This is Sam. He's 88. He has sad eyes.

He was older, also in Walker's bands.

He was older, also in Walker's bands.

Leslie says her mom paid attention to what was going on with the music teacher.

Leslie says her mom paid attention to what was going on with the music teacher.

Hall, the crooner we heard from earlier, says her mom knew something too, but only after her friend Ali's sexual encounter with the teacher. Right after, Ali told the administration. In fact, Hall was called to the principal's office as a witness. She says her mom was also at that meeting.

Hall, the crooner we heard from earlier, says her mom knew something too, but only after her friend Ali's sexual encounter with the teacher. Right after, Ali told the administration. In fact, Hall was called to the principal's office as a witness. She says her mom was also at that meeting.

Hall answered the administrator's questions, although she doesn't really remember what was said.

Hall answered the administrator's questions, although she doesn't really remember what was said.

No one did. But it takes a special kind of person to take on the school system, especially if your child isn't involved. In this case, no one notified Allie's parents. But Allie had begged the administration not to tell them. So the principal asked Allie to sign a document to that effect. The school board has no records or documents to share.

No one did. But it takes a special kind of person to take on the school system, especially if your child isn't involved. In this case, no one notified Allie's parents. But Allie had begged the administration not to tell them. So the principal asked Allie to sign a document to that effect. The school board has no records or documents to share.

Leslie McMillan doesn't understand why in 1987, none of the adults in positions of authority did anything.

Leslie McMillan doesn't understand why in 1987, none of the adults in positions of authority did anything.

Since this investigation began, I've been trying to find teachers, parents or administrators, people who knew what went on with this music teacher. How did adults perceive the situation between this teacher and teen girls? We now have a pretty clear picture of what was actually going on. But did anyone know then?

Since this investigation began, I've been trying to find teachers, parents or administrators, people who knew what went on with this music teacher. How did adults perceive the situation between this teacher and teen girls? We now have a pretty clear picture of what was actually going on. But did anyone know then?

In 1987, Ali reported what happened in that Montreal hotel room to the administration. Ali has given me all the names related to her case. I saw help from my guidance counsellor. I try to track her down. After several weeks, I find a relative of that former guidance counsellor on Facebook. I'm told the counsellor died a few years ago. Ali had confided in her.

In 1987, Ali reported what happened in that Montreal hotel room to the administration. Ali has given me all the names related to her case. I saw help from my guidance counsellor. I try to track her down. After several weeks, I find a relative of that former guidance counsellor on Facebook. I'm told the counsellor died a few years ago. Ali had confided in her.

But he did. The music teacher did blab, told Anne-Marie Robinson. Doug Walker told her about that private thing He said a father had punched him for something he didn't do. It made Anne-Marie stay silent about what the teacher was doing to her and feel sorry for him. Now, all these years later, I found the father who delivered the punch.

But he did. The music teacher did blab, told Anne-Marie Robinson. Doug Walker told her about that private thing He said a father had punched him for something he didn't do. It made Anne-Marie stay silent about what the teacher was doing to her and feel sorry for him. Now, all these years later, I found the father who delivered the punch.

Then... She told our principal, Mr. Nicky Fork, who told the superintendent of the York Region District School Board, Mr. Houston. I soon discover the superintendent, Wayne Houston, is also dead. The search continues. Hi there, I'm looking for John Nicky Fork. My name is Julie Ireton and I'm calling from CBC. Then I find John Nicky Fork, the former principal at Markham High. He's still alive.

Then... She told our principal, Mr. Nicky Fork, who told the superintendent of the York Region District School Board, Mr. Houston. I soon discover the superintendent, Wayne Houston, is also dead. The search continues. Hi there, I'm looking for John Nicky Fork. My name is Julie Ireton and I'm calling from CBC. Then I find John Nicky Fork, the former principal at Markham High. He's still alive.

I wondered if you had any memory of a teacher named Doug Walker. Unfortunately, John Nicky Fork's family says he's in ill health. He can't contribute. But there is one other person I want to find, the vice principal. Ali says he wasn't in those meetings in 1987, but he was the second in command. So maybe he knew. His name is Howard Christie, and he was at the school for a long time.

I wondered if you had any memory of a teacher named Doug Walker. Unfortunately, John Nicky Fork's family says he's in ill health. He can't contribute. But there is one other person I want to find, the vice principal. Ali says he wasn't in those meetings in 1987, but he was the second in command. So maybe he knew. His name is Howard Christie, and he was at the school for a long time.

In fact, five years before Ali went to the administration, Jackie Short had told the same vice principal about the music teacher. Jackie told me she reported to Howard Christie.

In fact, five years before Ali went to the administration, Jackie Short had told the same vice principal about the music teacher. Jackie told me she reported to Howard Christie.

Jackie Short, our diary keeper. She told me the story about the band trip to Germany in 1982. They were on the Elbe River between East and West Germany. She says she revealed it all right there on the boat.

Jackie Short, our diary keeper. She told me the story about the band trip to Germany in 1982. They were on the Elbe River between East and West Germany. She says she revealed it all right there on the boat.

But Howard Christie is not easy to locate. I do find a phone number and an email address. Neither work. Then my searching produces a mailing address. So I go old school. I send him a letter with my contacts and a brief explanation. To my surprise, he calls me weeks later. Christy's call catches me off guard, but I start recording with him on speakerphone at my desk, and he agrees to that.

But Howard Christie is not easy to locate. I do find a phone number and an email address. Neither work. Then my searching produces a mailing address. So I go old school. I send him a letter with my contacts and a brief explanation. To my surprise, he calls me weeks later. Christy's call catches me off guard, but I start recording with him on speakerphone at my desk, and he agrees to that.

The quality of the phone recording isn't great, but it's good to hear his voice, the recollections of a 93-year-old widower and former vice principal.

The quality of the phone recording isn't great, but it's good to hear his voice, the recollections of a 93-year-old widower and former vice principal.

I tell him about my research and about the survivors. More than a dozen women allege sexual exploitation, assault, abuse involving the music teacher. Do you ever recall on one of those trips Jackie Short telling you about some things that Doug Walker was doing with students? Jackie seems to recall she even remembers it was on a boat trip on the Alba River.

I tell him about my research and about the survivors. More than a dozen women allege sexual exploitation, assault, abuse involving the music teacher. Do you ever recall on one of those trips Jackie Short telling you about some things that Doug Walker was doing with students? Jackie seems to recall she even remembers it was on a boat trip on the Alba River.

And yet you don't recall Jackie telling you anything about what Walker was doing?

And yet you don't recall Jackie telling you anything about what Walker was doing?

If you had found out, what would you have done? What would the protocol at that time have been?

If you had found out, what would you have done? What would the protocol at that time have been?

And Anne-Marie Robinson is sitting in his living room, drinking tea. You did something very, very understandable.

And Anne-Marie Robinson is sitting in his living room, drinking tea. You did something very, very understandable.

You think he would have been fired?

You think he would have been fired?

Hmm. I know that five years later in 1987, Allie told the administration what had happened to her. Walker had sex with her on a band trip to Montreal, but the teacher moved. He wasn't fired. Christy was part of that administration, too. It is.

Hmm. I know that five years later in 1987, Allie told the administration what had happened to her. Walker had sex with her on a band trip to Montreal, but the teacher moved. He wasn't fired. Christy was part of that administration, too. It is.

I do find it interesting you say that it would have been cause for dismissal because, you know, in 1987, when it happened to another girl, he was just moved to a different school when Nicky Fork was in charge.

I do find it interesting you say that it would have been cause for dismissal because, you know, in 1987, when it happened to another girl, he was just moved to a different school when Nicky Fork was in charge.

So what did you hear was the reason that Doug Walker was leaving the school? I dialed Jackie short soon after I get off the phone with Christy. I tell her what the former vice principal said, and I remind her he's elderly, and we're talking about 40-year-old memories.

So what did you hear was the reason that Doug Walker was leaving the school? I dialed Jackie short soon after I get off the phone with Christy. I tell her what the former vice principal said, and I remind her he's elderly, and we're talking about 40-year-old memories.

Jackie is adamant about what she told Christy in 1982.

Jackie is adamant about what she told Christy in 1982.

I was probably well into my 30s before I really realized that he had actually knew what he was doing. Like it wasn't a one-off kind of thing.

I was probably well into my 30s before I really realized that he had actually knew what he was doing. Like it wasn't a one-off kind of thing.

Sat down, put his arm around me, and then he said to me, I don't care what anybody thinks. My name is Rita. I was in grade 12 then, so I would have been 17.

Sat down, put his arm around me, and then he said to me, I don't care what anybody thinks. My name is Rita. I was in grade 12 then, so I would have been 17.

We went to England and I remember him coming over and sat down beside me. There was couches and stuff all over this place and kissed in front of like all the rest of the band members that were there.

We went to England and I remember him coming over and sat down beside me. There was couches and stuff all over this place and kissed in front of like all the rest of the band members that were there.

I was pretty quiet.

I was pretty quiet.

You know, I mean, I had not had a boyfriend or anything at that point. So it was, you know, I guess I'd never felt like that before. So, yeah, it made me feel special.

You know, I mean, I had not had a boyfriend or anything at that point. So it was, you know, I guess I'd never felt like that before. So, yeah, it made me feel special.

I think that, you know, if we compared notes in any way, we would have figured it out. And I was already suspecting.

I think that, you know, if we compared notes in any way, we would have figured it out. And I was already suspecting.

And he would tell me things about her, like really terrible things, and like to stay away from her. He did the same thing to her, told her terrible things and to stay away from me. Rita remembers how it all started. He took me to a romantic dinner at a French restaurant in Toronto, and we went back to his house and ended up in his bed.

And he would tell me things about her, like really terrible things, and like to stay away from her. He did the same thing to her, told her terrible things and to stay away from me. Rita remembers how it all started. He took me to a romantic dinner at a French restaurant in Toronto, and we went back to his house and ended up in his bed.

And he made me believe, too, that, you know, this was going to go somewhere, like that he wanted to live with me and things like that.

And he made me believe, too, that, you know, this was going to go somewhere, like that he wanted to live with me and things like that.

I asked him if he could provide other names. I asked him 28 questions.

I asked him if he could provide other names. I asked him 28 questions.

Well, thank you so much, all of you, for everything, all these many, many months.

Well, thank you so much, all of you, for everything, all these many, many months.

Thank you so much. See you all.

Thank you so much. See you all.

Turn right onto Byron Avenue, then turn right onto Chatham Avenue.

Turn right onto Byron Avenue, then turn right onto Chatham Avenue.

It is good to see you all together. It is. You know, I was thinking this morning, it's almost been a year since we've all met. It's hard to believe it's only been one year. Yeah.

It is good to see you all together. It is. You know, I was thinking this morning, it's almost been a year since we've all met. It's hard to believe it's only been one year. Yeah.

So do you want me to read this letter then? Yeah. Okay. Here we go. Good morning, Ms. Ireton.

So do you want me to read this letter then? Yeah. Okay. Here we go. Good morning, Ms. Ireton.

My name is Julie Ireton and I'm calling from CBC in Ottawa.

My name is Julie Ireton and I'm calling from CBC in Ottawa.

No, he doesn't say anything. Let me just, I'm going to pull out the military file. No, on his resume, there's not one word, nothing, about having been in the military band. Nothing.

No, he doesn't say anything. Let me just, I'm going to pull out the military file. No, on his resume, there's not one word, nothing, about having been in the military band. Nothing.

Julie Ireton calling. Oh yes, I know.

Julie Ireton calling. Oh yes, I know.

I'm good. How are you doing?

I'm good. How are you doing?

There we go. So how are you this morning? Good. I feel fine this morning.

There we go. So how are you this morning? Good. I feel fine this morning.

But when we're talking about the 70s and 80s, it's obviously more difficult because we just don't have that digital record of everything. But I will, you know, I'll start digging.

But when we're talking about the 70s and 80s, it's obviously more difficult because we just don't have that digital record of everything. But I will, you know, I'll start digging.

Well, it could have happened. You don't know.

Well, it could have happened. You don't know.

Any other big questions that you want answered?

Any other big questions that you want answered?

Well, I'm going to, we're going to find some answers here and you're ready for answers. And that's what I'm excited about too.

Well, I'm going to, we're going to find some answers here and you're ready for answers. And that's what I'm excited about too.

Okay, take care.

Okay, take care.

Bye.

Bye.

This is a CBC Podcast. Anne-Marie Robinson was just 16 in 1977. She went away on a school band trip. The kids stayed in a hotel. The music teacher bought them alcohol.

This is a CBC Podcast. Anne-Marie Robinson was just 16 in 1977. She went away on a school band trip. The kids stayed in a hotel. The music teacher bought them alcohol.

Anne-Marie Robinson sets out to change things for the better. And she wants justice for women who are victims of historical sexual abuse.

Anne-Marie Robinson sets out to change things for the better. And she wants justice for women who are victims of historical sexual abuse.

Just that somebody could be this diabolical and that other people let it happen. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca.

Just that somebody could be this diabolical and that other people let it happen. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca.

Anne-Marie's only way out was to quit school, but she always wondered, was she the only one? I'm Julie Ireton, host of a new podcast, The Band Teacher. Anne-Marie Robinson joins me as we investigate her old high school music teacher and uncover a trail of teen victims. He said to me, you know, it wouldn't take much for me to lose control.

Anne-Marie's only way out was to quit school, but she always wondered, was she the only one? I'm Julie Ireton, host of a new podcast, The Band Teacher. Anne-Marie Robinson joins me as we investigate her old high school music teacher and uncover a trail of teen victims. He said to me, you know, it wouldn't take much for me to lose control.

Sometimes it's hard for me to remember that I'm 39 years old and your teacher. And it's exactly 56. That was just the intercourse. Probably 150-ish times for oral sex. Office, office, office, office, back music room. Something happened to me too. His former students allege rape. The teacher says it was consensual sex.

Sometimes it's hard for me to remember that I'm 39 years old and your teacher. And it's exactly 56. That was just the intercourse. Probably 150-ish times for oral sex. Office, office, office, office, back music room. Something happened to me too. His former students allege rape. The teacher says it was consensual sex.

I walk in the room and there she's lying on his bed, like, totally passed out, pants undone. I thought he was our little predator. How many girls at how many schools? Who knew? And why wasn't he stopped? Now the women are speaking out, demanding answers and accountability. She had no adult in her corner. Like, where were the adults? They knew. They were covering their asses. And nothing was done.

I walk in the room and there she's lying on his bed, like, totally passed out, pants undone. I thought he was our little predator. How many girls at how many schools? Who knew? And why wasn't he stopped? Now the women are speaking out, demanding answers and accountability. She had no adult in her corner. Like, where were the adults? They knew. They were covering their asses. And nothing was done.

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

I think the law has a responsibility when they know they have a predator with multiple complaints to take a deep and a broad look at what happened over a period of 1973 to at least 87, if not longer.

I think the law has a responsibility when they know they have a predator with multiple complaints to take a deep and a broad look at what happened over a period of 1973 to at least 87, if not longer.

He asked me a lot of really specific questions. Do you remember what sex acts you performed? What was said? Do you remember what was done? And just the level of shame that's still there.

He asked me a lot of really specific questions. Do you remember what sex acts you performed? What was said? Do you remember what was done? And just the level of shame that's still there.

You can feel his pain and his rage. Yeah. That was rough.

You can feel his pain and his rage. Yeah. That was rough.

There's just something about what... Just when he was talking about his daughter and saying he couldn't believe somebody could take advantage of his little girl. And we were the same age, and that's how he looked at it. And I just felt a shift.

There's just something about what... Just when he was talking about his daughter and saying he couldn't believe somebody could take advantage of his little girl. And we were the same age, and that's how he looked at it. And I just felt a shift.

Fill me in, what has happened? I had a phone call at 9 o'clock this morning and a voicemail and an email. He is a detective constable with the York Regional Police Major Crimes Bureau Special Victims Unit Cold Case Section.

Fill me in, what has happened? I had a phone call at 9 o'clock this morning and a voicemail and an email. He is a detective constable with the York Regional Police Major Crimes Bureau Special Victims Unit Cold Case Section.

I just felt a little overcome yesterday. I'm just like, it just washed over me that I feel like it's time.

I just felt a little overcome yesterday. I'm just like, it just washed over me that I feel like it's time.

So I sent in the narrative box. In 1986, 1987, I was a new student in 11th grade at Markham High and became very active in the music program. My music teacher, William Douglas Walker, was an important figure in my life. And in early May 1987, our band went on a chaperone school trip.

So I sent in the narrative box. In 1986, 1987, I was a new student in 11th grade at Markham High and became very active in the music program. My music teacher, William Douglas Walker, was an important figure in my life. And in early May 1987, our band went on a chaperone school trip.

He consumed alcohol with us, sexually harassed students, and on May 9th, 1987, had sexual intercourse with me in his hotel room. I have an eyewitness who removed me from his hotel room at his request because I was too drunk to stand.

He consumed alcohol with us, sexually harassed students, and on May 9th, 1987, had sexual intercourse with me in his hotel room. I have an eyewitness who removed me from his hotel room at his request because I was too drunk to stand.

I was interrogated and humiliated by all of the administrators, who never informed me that a crime had been committed. I thought I was beyond the age of consent and had no idea that consuming alcohol or an adult being in a position of power changed the rules.

I was interrogated and humiliated by all of the administrators, who never informed me that a crime had been committed. I thought I was beyond the age of consent and had no idea that consuming alcohol or an adult being in a position of power changed the rules.

Ultimately, Mr. Walker was simply moved to another school again, and I was left to endure the academic fallout and social shaming that continued throughout my time in high school.

Ultimately, Mr. Walker was simply moved to another school again, and I was left to endure the academic fallout and social shaming that continued throughout my time in high school.

Well, I had started it probably 15 times over the last two weeks. I didn't realize that Until I met Anne-Marie and Jeannie, I didn't realize the scale of this. And I didn't realize how deeply, deeply harmed. Like this changed, he's changed lives. He's changed people. You know, it started interfering with my sleep and this feels right to me. And there's been no, there's been no justice.

Well, I had started it probably 15 times over the last two weeks. I didn't realize that Until I met Anne-Marie and Jeannie, I didn't realize the scale of this. And I didn't realize how deeply, deeply harmed. Like this changed, he's changed lives. He's changed people. You know, it started interfering with my sleep and this feels right to me. And there's been no, there's been no justice.

There's been no justice for anybody in this story since 1973. There's been no justice. And if I'm the only person who falls under the new laws, then I do have a responsibility. I do. It's bigger than me.

There's been no justice for anybody in this story since 1973. There's been no justice. And if I'm the only person who falls under the new laws, then I do have a responsibility. I do. It's bigger than me.

I told the ladies, I told the blips, I told the blips on our Facebook group. I said, I've made my report and there was much screaming and, um, offers of support, you know, which is really wonderful.

I told the ladies, I told the blips, I told the blips on our Facebook group. I said, I've made my report and there was much screaming and, um, offers of support, you know, which is really wonderful.

I am so glad that things are unfolding the way that they are. I kind of wish I'd had this information when I was 30. I think I would have, it wouldn't have derailed my life at 30. It would have derailed my life at 17.

I am so glad that things are unfolding the way that they are. I kind of wish I'd had this information when I was 30. I think I would have, it wouldn't have derailed my life at 30. It would have derailed my life at 17.

Anne-Marie feels that same validation.

Anne-Marie feels that same validation.

Jeannie makes a prediction.

Jeannie makes a prediction.

Jeannie now teaches at this Vancouver-area high school. Despite what happened with her own music teacher, she ended up back in the classroom. But she no longer holds a baton or leads a school band.

Jeannie now teaches at this Vancouver-area high school. Despite what happened with her own music teacher, she ended up back in the classroom. But she no longer holds a baton or leads a school band.

She felt haunted. How could a teacher even contemplate using his power over a student?

She felt haunted. How could a teacher even contemplate using his power over a student?

Anne-Marie tells her about volunteering with her daughter's high school band. It was the first time she realized 15 and 16-year-olds are still children.

Anne-Marie tells her about volunteering with her daughter's high school band. It was the first time she realized 15 and 16-year-olds are still children.

I'm like, where the hell were all the adults? Jeannie now teaches social studies and English, but before she left music, she had her own chance encounter with the former music teacher. Another striking parallel with Anne Marie. In October 1997, Jeannie set off on a California junket. She was 34. She'd only been teaching for two years. It was a glorious day. A tour for music teachers at Disney.

I'm like, where the hell were all the adults? Jeannie now teaches social studies and English, but before she left music, she had her own chance encounter with the former music teacher. Another striking parallel with Anne Marie. In October 1997, Jeannie set off on a California junket. She was 34. She'd only been teaching for two years. It was a glorious day. A tour for music teachers at Disney.

They would spend time in Hollywood.

They would spend time in Hollywood.

Her Disney tour was over before it even started. She stayed with friends in the area before it was time to leave.

Her Disney tour was over before it even started. She stayed with friends in the area before it was time to leave.

At that point, he had moved schools seven times. Jeannie doesn't think it was an accident. She ran into him. Yep. It was meant to happen. The stars had aligned in Los Angeles.

At that point, he had moved schools seven times. Jeannie doesn't think it was an accident. She ran into him. Yep. It was meant to happen. The stars had aligned in Los Angeles.

And so I phoned the Delta police. Initially, she contacted the police in Delta, British Columbia. They referred her to a division in the Toronto area close to her former high school. Jeannie had an interview with an officer.

And so I phoned the Delta police. Initially, she contacted the police in Delta, British Columbia. They referred her to a division in the Toronto area close to her former high school. Jeannie had an interview with an officer.

Annemarie and I know exactly the kind of room she's referring to. It's similar to Annemarie's interview with the police. But as far as these women know, the police forces never connected their allegations against the same former music teacher. Jeannie shares her police file with me. It includes a video of that interview with the officer. It's from almost 25 years ago.

Annemarie and I know exactly the kind of room she's referring to. It's similar to Annemarie's interview with the police. But as far as these women know, the police forces never connected their allegations against the same former music teacher. Jeannie shares her police file with me. It includes a video of that interview with the officer. It's from almost 25 years ago.

That desk traveled with her from her family home in the Toronto area all the way to British Columbia. She threw plastic over the desk, stored it in her garage. Old paint cans sat on top of it.

That desk traveled with her from her family home in the Toronto area all the way to British Columbia. She threw plastic over the desk, stored it in her garage. Old paint cans sat on top of it.

The audio is old, the quality isn't great, but it's definitely Jeannie telling her story. She launches right in, detailing her concerns about other girls who may have been abused.

The audio is old, the quality isn't great, but it's definitely Jeannie telling her story. She launches right in, detailing her concerns about other girls who may have been abused.

Jeannie revealed what happened in the back of the teacher's little green Dodge. Then she told the officer about the 56 notches on the desk in her garage.

Jeannie revealed what happened in the back of the teacher's little green Dodge. Then she told the officer about the 56 notches on the desk in her garage.

Genie talks about the grooming. She mentions the other teen students she suspects also had sex with him.

Genie talks about the grooming. She mentions the other teen students she suspects also had sex with him.

Then it became evidence against the banned teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of The Band Played On. Jeannie McKay and Anne-Marie Robinson have found each other, but they live on opposite sides of the country, more than 4,000 kilometers apart. In this episode, Jeannie will tell us her story and the women discover their parallel paths.

Then it became evidence against the banned teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of The Band Played On. Jeannie McKay and Anne-Marie Robinson have found each other, but they live on opposite sides of the country, more than 4,000 kilometers apart. In this episode, Jeannie will tell us her story and the women discover their parallel paths.

I notice a typed note on Jeannie's police report. It says, quote, unquote. No injuries. A police investigation got underway in 1998. The files reveal the detectives spoke to school board officials.

I notice a typed note on Jeannie's police report. It says, quote, unquote. No injuries. A police investigation got underway in 1998. The files reveal the detectives spoke to school board officials.

A detective visited Jeannie's former school, spoke to a teacher who said she did witness a questionable relationship between a student and the accused music teacher.

A detective visited Jeannie's former school, spoke to a teacher who said she did witness a questionable relationship between a student and the accused music teacher.

It looks like in 1998, the police initially took Jeannie's allegations seriously. A brief was presented to the Crown Attorney's Office to see if there was reasonable prospect for a conviction. The police report notes, "...the victim relayed various incidents of highly inappropriate but not necessarily criminal behavior."

It looks like in 1998, the police initially took Jeannie's allegations seriously. A brief was presented to the Crown Attorney's Office to see if there was reasonable prospect for a conviction. The police report notes, "...the victim relayed various incidents of highly inappropriate but not necessarily criminal behavior."

At the time when Jeannie reported in the late 1990s, Walker was still teaching. So police had an obligation, a duty to contact the school board and the local Children's Aid Society. But the document notes further evidence will be required in order for either agency to take action. The music teacher remained in the classroom. No charges were laid. Nothing was done. They said that

At the time when Jeannie reported in the late 1990s, Walker was still teaching. So police had an obligation, a duty to contact the school board and the local Children's Aid Society. But the document notes further evidence will be required in order for either agency to take action. The music teacher remained in the classroom. No charges were laid. Nothing was done. They said that

That old rape law, the crime that offended a girl's father, not the girl, it has been changed. But it's still shocking it applied to what happened to Jeannie in the early 1980s.

That old rape law, the crime that offended a girl's father, not the girl, it has been changed. But it's still shocking it applied to what happened to Jeannie in the early 1980s.

And just like in Anne-Marie's case, no one discussed other potential charges. At least they don't discuss it with the alleged victim. Again, I think of the men, the survivors in the last season of the band played on. In that case, boys were propositioned, touched over their clothes by a teacher. That was also in the 1970s and 80s. A man was convicted for those crimes.

And just like in Anne-Marie's case, no one discussed other potential charges. At least they don't discuss it with the alleged victim. Again, I think of the men, the survivors in the last season of the band played on. In that case, boys were propositioned, touched over their clothes by a teacher. That was also in the 1970s and 80s. A man was convicted for those crimes.

Why were authorities not listening to this woman? Why was he still in the classroom? Jeannie's complaint to police hadn't changed anything. And I think of that note on the file, no injuries. There was seemingly no impact on this girl. But Jeannie hadn't exhausted all avenues.

Why were authorities not listening to this woman? Why was he still in the classroom? Jeannie's complaint to police hadn't changed anything. And I think of that note on the file, no injuries. There was seemingly no impact on this girl. But Jeannie hadn't exhausted all avenues.

She notified the Ontario College of Teachers, the professional regulator and licensing body for teachers. Files show the college and police were communicating and sharing information. As a teacher herself, Jeannie was fairly sure the regulator could not ignore her claims.

She notified the Ontario College of Teachers, the professional regulator and licensing body for teachers. Files show the college and police were communicating and sharing information. As a teacher herself, Jeannie was fairly sure the regulator could not ignore her claims.

It was a slow process. Years went by and he kept teaching. There were a number of people assigned to my case over the couple of years. Jeanne sent investigators photos of the teacher drinking with students, hugging them. High school friends provided affidavits detailing what they knew. One woman, an old friend, had a diary from back in the 1980s. It provided times.

It was a slow process. Years went by and he kept teaching. There were a number of people assigned to my case over the couple of years. Jeanne sent investigators photos of the teacher drinking with students, hugging them. High school friends provided affidavits detailing what they knew. One woman, an old friend, had a diary from back in the 1980s. It provided times.

and a teenage perspective on what was happening between kids and the teacher. Jeannie's desk with its 56 notches was still in her garage. Then when that happened, yeah, I peeled off the plastic and there it was. And so I took pictures. That specific number, 56, would be repeated in the regulator's official decision and in media reports that followed.

and a teenage perspective on what was happening between kids and the teacher. Jeannie's desk with its 56 notches was still in her garage. Then when that happened, yeah, I peeled off the plastic and there it was. And so I took pictures. That specific number, 56, would be repeated in the regulator's official decision and in media reports that followed.

More than three years after Jeannie initially got in touch with the regulator, a hearing was held in Toronto. I was not at that hearing. Jeannie sent the College of Teachers a victim impact statement. It was read into evidence. She reads an excerpt.

More than three years after Jeannie initially got in touch with the regulator, a hearing was held in Toronto. I was not at that hearing. Jeannie sent the College of Teachers a victim impact statement. It was read into evidence. She reads an excerpt.

Walker didn't want the public to hear this statement or anything else about the case. He asked for the hearing to be held behind closed doors. But the regulator said it was in the public interest to remain open.

Walker didn't want the public to hear this statement or anything else about the case. He asked for the hearing to be held behind closed doors. But the regulator said it was in the public interest to remain open.

I asked the Ontario College of Teachers for any documents relating to this case. The staff sent me a file. It includes Walker's CV, his resignation letter, and a certificate of recognition. This last document surprised me. It awards Walker for quote, dedication, commitment, and professionalism in the service of teaching.

I asked the Ontario College of Teachers for any documents relating to this case. The staff sent me a file. It includes Walker's CV, his resignation letter, and a certificate of recognition. This last document surprised me. It awards Walker for quote, dedication, commitment, and professionalism in the service of teaching.

And this certificate was sent to him while the college was looking into his alleged sexual abuse of a student. I'm guessing this award was the result of a bureaucratic oversight. The college also sent along four character references for Doug Walker. A fellow teacher wrote... Another friend wrote, quote,

And this certificate was sent to him while the college was looking into his alleged sexual abuse of a student. I'm guessing this award was the result of a bureaucratic oversight. The college also sent along four character references for Doug Walker. A fellow teacher wrote... Another friend wrote, quote,

But to bring it to light 20 years after the fact and to cost Doug his teaching career seems overly punitive, unquote. The assertion that it was an affair is particularly galling to Jeannie, but then that's likely how it was described to these friends. On February 13, 2001, the Ontario College of Teachers found William Douglas Walker guilty of professional misconduct.

But to bring it to light 20 years after the fact and to cost Doug his teaching career seems overly punitive, unquote. The assertion that it was an affair is particularly galling to Jeannie, but then that's likely how it was described to these friends. On February 13, 2001, the Ontario College of Teachers found William Douglas Walker guilty of professional misconduct.

The survivors are getting acquainted. Then they'll search for others. Episode 5, The Blip.

The survivors are getting acquainted. Then they'll search for others. Episode 5, The Blip.

Walker was verbally reprimanded and fined $2,000. He was never to teach again in any jurisdiction. The decision says he bought alcohol for and showed pornography to four students. But there was no mention of any other victims of sexual abuse. I recently discovered the college had tried to contact other victims from her school.

Walker was verbally reprimanded and fined $2,000. He was never to teach again in any jurisdiction. The decision says he bought alcohol for and showed pornography to four students. But there was no mention of any other victims of sexual abuse. I recently discovered the college had tried to contact other victims from her school.

All the names of students, including Jeannie's, are blacked out in official documents, and no names were published in media reports. The headline in the Toronto Star read, The article notes during his 25-year career, Walker was given an award for excellence in teaching. The reporter wrote, quote, during his testimony, he quietly sobbed when he talked about his achievements, unquote.

All the names of students, including Jeannie's, are blacked out in official documents, and no names were published in media reports. The headline in the Toronto Star read, The article notes during his 25-year career, Walker was given an award for excellence in teaching. The reporter wrote, quote, during his testimony, he quietly sobbed when he talked about his achievements, unquote.

Walker told the panel he realized what he had done was wrong and he had a need to be their friend, not just their teacher. He explained he'd received informal counseling through his family doctor and a prayer group. Walker said, quote, it's been an honor to be a teacher and except for this blip, I think I did a good job. I'm sorry to have let the profession down, unquote.

Walker told the panel he realized what he had done was wrong and he had a need to be their friend, not just their teacher. He explained he'd received informal counseling through his family doctor and a prayer group. Walker said, quote, it's been an honor to be a teacher and except for this blip, I think I did a good job. I'm sorry to have let the profession down, unquote.

Not abuse, not an affair, a blip.

Not abuse, not an affair, a blip.

We are your shame. The Ontario College of Teachers posted a 10-page decision on its website. That's the document Anne-Marie found when she googled her teacher's name decades after she quit school. there was a black rectangle where Jeannie's name should have been.

We are your shame. The Ontario College of Teachers posted a 10-page decision on its website. That's the document Anne-Marie found when she googled her teacher's name decades after she quit school. there was a black rectangle where Jeannie's name should have been.

Just 10 days after the teacher was found guilty of professional misconduct, he went on a trip to Europe. It's captured on YouTube. a traveling choir called Men of Note. All men, all adults. Walker was its director between 1999 and 2005. This particular trip took the singers to France, Belgium and the UK. On the last night, Walker gave a speech.

Just 10 days after the teacher was found guilty of professional misconduct, he went on a trip to Europe. It's captured on YouTube. a traveling choir called Men of Note. All men, all adults. Walker was its director between 1999 and 2005. This particular trip took the singers to France, Belgium and the UK. On the last night, Walker gave a speech.

It's captured on a grainy video, probably on a handycam. When he

It's captured on a grainy video, probably on a handycam. When he

He gets emotional, has to stop for a few breaths. Walker was 52 at the time. He's wearing a taupe-coloured suit. He still has a bushy moustache.

He gets emotional, has to stop for a few breaths. Walker was 52 at the time. He's wearing a taupe-coloured suit. He still has a bushy moustache.

He's speaking to the men in the choir and their wives. Walker has declined my request for an interview, but he acknowledges what he calls consensual relationships with both Anne-Marie and Jeannie.

He's speaking to the men in the choir and their wives. Walker has declined my request for an interview, but he acknowledges what he calls consensual relationships with both Anne-Marie and Jeannie.

It's a good reminder he's a real person with friends and family.

It's a good reminder he's a real person with friends and family.

The crowd gives him, their leader, a standing ovation as he wraps up. And he was crying and the audience was clapping.

The crowd gives him, their leader, a standing ovation as he wraps up. And he was crying and the audience was clapping.

I mean, I'm not saying he shouldn't have another life. To Anne-Marie, Jeannie's determination to get him out of teaching was nothing short of heroic.

I mean, I'm not saying he shouldn't have another life. To Anne-Marie, Jeannie's determination to get him out of teaching was nothing short of heroic.

Jeannie, Anne-Marie, and I now catch up regularly by video call. I can't hear you, Anne-Marie. Are you there, Anne-Marie? Yeah, I'm coming. Sorry. The two of them chat all the time, probably daily. They've been just a text or call away since we found Jeannie a couple months ago.

Jeannie, Anne-Marie, and I now catch up regularly by video call. I can't hear you, Anne-Marie. Are you there, Anne-Marie? Yeah, I'm coming. Sorry. The two of them chat all the time, probably daily. They've been just a text or call away since we found Jeannie a couple months ago.

And likewise, I love the way you said that. The two women who were strangers just a short time ago are now like sisters. and this family is going to grow. Together, Jeannie and Anne-Marie plan to reach out to others.

And likewise, I love the way you said that. The two women who were strangers just a short time ago are now like sisters. and this family is going to grow. Together, Jeannie and Anne-Marie plan to reach out to others.

Mm-hmm. That punch story is something Anne-Marie wants to hear too.

Mm-hmm. That punch story is something Anne-Marie wants to hear too.

Next time on The Band Teacher. Another former student documented what went on with the music teacher.

Next time on The Band Teacher. Another former student documented what went on with the music teacher.

This gets bigger than either Anne-Marie or Jeannie ever imagined.

This gets bigger than either Anne-Marie or Jeannie ever imagined.

The Band Teacher is investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Alison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Eve Saint-Laurent is our legal advisor. Thanks to CBC senior producer Liz Hoth for recording the interview of Jeannie McKay and helping with logistics in British Columbia.

The Band Teacher is investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Alison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Eve Saint-Laurent is our legal advisor. Thanks to CBC senior producer Liz Hoth for recording the interview of Jeannie McKay and helping with logistics in British Columbia.

Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer, and Jen White provided valuable production advice. Special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. And the managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you want to binge the whole series, subscribe to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description or binge listen for free by logging in to CBC Listen.

Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer, and Jen White provided valuable production advice. Special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. And the managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you want to binge the whole series, subscribe to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description or binge listen for free by logging in to CBC Listen.

If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help. Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault centre or rape crisis centre in your area.

If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help. Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault centre or rape crisis centre in your area.

It's April 2022. They're already talking about meeting up in the summer in Toronto. And Jeannie is betting there could be others at that gathering. She goes back to the day she got our first message.

It's April 2022. They're already talking about meeting up in the summer in Toronto. And Jeannie is betting there could be others at that gathering. She goes back to the day she got our first message.

It's exactly 56. 56 notches etched into Jeannie McKay's desk in her teenage bedroom.

It's exactly 56. 56 notches etched into Jeannie McKay's desk in her teenage bedroom.

For now, Jeannie's ready to let us into her life. She's sharing her story. Sit, sit. This is Ocean. Jeannie, her husband Dave, and Ocean live on the west coast of Canada.

For now, Jeannie's ready to let us into her life. She's sharing her story. Sit, sit. This is Ocean. Jeannie, her husband Dave, and Ocean live on the west coast of Canada.

Some water dog. A transplant to British Columbia, Jeannie spent her first 18 years in the greater Toronto area. At home, she was always surrounded by music.

Some water dog. A transplant to British Columbia, Jeannie spent her first 18 years in the greater Toronto area. At home, she was always surrounded by music.

Jeannie also plays the piano and several other instruments. She's tall, has short, wavy hair. She wears metal-framed glasses that are tinged with blue. In her late 50s, her hair still has more pepper than salt. Like Anne-Marie in high school, she wore it feathered. And like most teenage girls, she was tough on herself.

Jeannie also plays the piano and several other instruments. She's tall, has short, wavy hair. She wears metal-framed glasses that are tinged with blue. In her late 50s, her hair still has more pepper than salt. Like Anne-Marie in high school, she wore it feathered. And like most teenage girls, she was tough on herself.

56 wee marks on her desk to track sexual intercourse with her music teacher after class or band practice.

56 wee marks on her desk to track sexual intercourse with her music teacher after class or band practice.

Jeannie smiles a lot, laughs easily. She's bright, strong-willed, yet there's a fragility just beneath the surface. There will be moments when I see her eyes well. She allows the tears to flow. And excuse me a sec, I need a Kleenex. Jeannie went to Markham District High School. That's where Doug Walker moved in January 1979, right after he left Anne-Marie's school.

Jeannie smiles a lot, laughs easily. She's bright, strong-willed, yet there's a fragility just beneath the surface. There will be moments when I see her eyes well. She allows the tears to flow. And excuse me a sec, I need a Kleenex. Jeannie went to Markham District High School. That's where Doug Walker moved in January 1979, right after he left Anne-Marie's school.

He started partway through the year. He led choirs, bands, the entire music department at Markham. And like Anne-Marie a few years before, Jeannie met the music teacher at 15. She remembers him acting like one of the kids.

He started partway through the year. He led choirs, bands, the entire music department at Markham. And like Anne-Marie a few years before, Jeannie met the music teacher at 15. She remembers him acting like one of the kids.

For Anne-Marie and me, much of Jeannie's story sounds like a rerun.

For Anne-Marie and me, much of Jeannie's story sounds like a rerun.

At this point, the teacher was in his early 30s, twice Jeannie's age. his third school in four years.

At this point, the teacher was in his early 30s, twice Jeannie's age. his third school in four years.

He was showing them Penthouse magazine.

He was showing them Penthouse magazine.

One night after band practice, she remembers the teacher gave the girls a special send-off.

One night after band practice, she remembers the teacher gave the girls a special send-off.

Jeannie now sees the progression. Drinking, pornography, suggestive comments, French kisses, then sex.

Jeannie now sees the progression. Drinking, pornography, suggestive comments, French kisses, then sex.

It was after a band practice, the Royals. The Royal Regiment of Canada Band, the same one he had taken Anne-Marie to a couple years earlier.

It was after a band practice, the Royals. The Royal Regiment of Canada Band, the same one he had taken Anne-Marie to a couple years earlier.

She wasn't equipped to see it then, but she now realizes she was groomed. He provided dinners, drinks. There was special treatment during class and after school. Sex often happened in the back of a car. It was routine and continued for two years. Jeannie now knows the teacher kept her away from those who might have condemned it or reported what was happening.

She wasn't equipped to see it then, but she now realizes she was groomed. He provided dinners, drinks. There was special treatment during class and after school. Sex often happened in the back of a car. It was routine and continued for two years. Jeannie now knows the teacher kept her away from those who might have condemned it or reported what was happening.

Her younger brother was also in the Markham school band. He died a few years ago. Jeannie now sees it all so clearly.

Her younger brother was also in the Markham school band. He died a few years ago. Jeannie now sees it all so clearly.

She always suspected she was not the only student he introduced to the back seat of his car.

She always suspected she was not the only student he introduced to the back seat of his car.

So Jeannie went on the pill. She remembers he normalized the whole situation.

So Jeannie went on the pill. She remembers he normalized the whole situation.

For Jeannie, there was sexual activity on school and Royal Regimental band trips around the world in the UK, Germany, New York, Atlanta.

For Jeannie, there was sexual activity on school and Royal Regimental band trips around the world in the UK, Germany, New York, Atlanta.

And that started towards the end of high school when her dad got sick.

And that started towards the end of high school when her dad got sick.

As Jeannie grew up, became an adult, she needed to bury what had gone on with her teacher, just like Anne-Marie had done. For survivors of abuse, this seems like a textbook coping mechanism.

As Jeannie grew up, became an adult, she needed to bury what had gone on with her teacher, just like Anne-Marie had done. For survivors of abuse, this seems like a textbook coping mechanism.

Jeannie goes back to the moment just months ago when she and Anne-Marie connected. And...

Jeannie goes back to the moment just months ago when she and Anne-Marie connected. And...

Both Jeannie and Anne-Marie described sexual abuse by the same teacher. Both women married and had a baby at a very young age. Both divorced twice. Both went to university as mature students. Their paths ran parallel. They've merged.

Both Jeannie and Anne-Marie described sexual abuse by the same teacher. Both women married and had a baby at a very young age. Both divorced twice. Both went to university as mature students. Their paths ran parallel. They've merged.