Katy Faust

This is a worldview that does not discriminate between single, married, gay, straight, fertile and infertile. This is a world where if you're going to put children first, all adults must conform to those fundamental rights. Let's wrestle that out. That means that it is going to run up against all of our self-interest at some point.

This is a worldview that does not discriminate between single, married, gay, straight, fertile and infertile. This is a world where if you're going to put children first, all adults must conform to those fundamental rights. Let's wrestle that out. That means that it is going to run up against all of our self-interest at some point.

Do you mind if I jump in there? Yeah, go ahead. Because you said parents with two kids do better, but I want to challenge that and say it's not two parents.

Do you mind if I jump in there? Yeah, go ahead. Because you said parents with two kids do better, but I want to challenge that and say it's not two parents.

Well, then... Well, if this isn't what you were going to get to, then please get to what you're going to get to. But I will say that there has been some increased courage and boldness from the right and the left to say children need two parents. Like, the data is now so strong that we're not able to reject that anymore. The myth of the single mother, you know, doing just as well. That is...

Well, then... Well, if this isn't what you were going to get to, then please get to what you're going to get to. But I will say that there has been some increased courage and boldness from the right and the left to say children need two parents. Like, the data is now so strong that we're not able to reject that anymore. The myth of the single mother, you know, doing just as well. That is...

Absolutely unsubstantiated. But I will say that it is not just two parents. It's not a two-parent home that advantages children. It is two married biological parents who advantage children. And that's a really important point. Unfortunately, I think because... Go ahead.

Absolutely unsubstantiated. But I will say that it is not just two parents. It's not a two-parent home that advantages children. It is two married biological parents who advantage children. And that's a really important point. Unfortunately, I think because... Go ahead.

No, I remember the conversation you guys had where he said, I kind of feel like I'm at the end of what the maturation that I can achieve without having children, in essence, is how that conversation went. And that is true. Children do mature you in ways that other relationships and other demands do not. But children are not a function of your maturation. You should be a function of theirs.

No, I remember the conversation you guys had where he said, I kind of feel like I'm at the end of what the maturation that I can achieve without having children, in essence, is how that conversation went. And that is true. Children do mature you in ways that other relationships and other demands do not. But children are not a function of your maturation. You should be a function of theirs.

So I understand. First of all, let me say Dave Rubin, incredibly talented, absolute champion of Western values, probably one of the most talented interviewers that I know of right now. And what he did to those children is 100 percent unjust. Unfortunately, he forced the smallest, the weakest, the most vulnerable to sacrifice for two grown men.

So I understand. First of all, let me say Dave Rubin, incredibly talented, absolute champion of Western values, probably one of the most talented interviewers that I know of right now. And what he did to those children is 100 percent unjust. Unfortunately, he forced the smallest, the weakest, the most vulnerable to sacrifice for two grown men.

And even though they can try to make up for it with freezers full of breast milk, nighttime nannies and the mothers in their life, they have denied their children, not just one mother. Not just two mothers, but I would argue all three mothers, all three roles that a mother provides. Number one is the genetic mother who provides 50% of the child's biological identity.

And even though they can try to make up for it with freezers full of breast milk, nighttime nannies and the mothers in their life, they have denied their children, not just one mother. Not just two mothers, but I would argue all three mothers, all three roles that a mother provides. Number one is the genetic mother who provides 50% of the child's biological identity.

And that is a critical piece of identity consolidation and formation. It is very hard for kids to answer the question, who am I? If they cannot answer the question, whose am I? And unfortunately, Dave and David have severed their children from 50% of the answer to that question. So there's number one mother that they've cut them off of. Number two, the birth mother.

And that is a critical piece of identity consolidation and formation. It is very hard for kids to answer the question, who am I? If they cannot answer the question, whose am I? And unfortunately, Dave and David have severed their children from 50% of the answer to that question. So there's number one mother that they've cut them off of. Number two, the birth mother.

This is not only the most critical, but the only relationship that children have for the first nine and a half months of their life. And the day that the child is born is the day when they're supposed to see the mother they already love for the first time, not the last. Why is it that we put children, newborns, on the chest of their mothers? It is not so they can form a bond.

This is not only the most critical, but the only relationship that children have for the first nine and a half months of their life. And the day that the child is born is the day when they're supposed to see the mother they already love for the first time, not the last. Why is it that we put children, newborns, on the chest of their mothers? It is not so they can form a bond.

It is because children have an existing bond with that woman. It is her body, her smell, her voice that soothes the baby. She is the only thing that that child knows. We have measured, and it is her presence that decreases baby's cortisol levels, especially in the first couple days and weeks.

It is because children have an existing bond with that woman. It is her body, her smell, her voice that soothes the baby. She is the only thing that that child knows. We have measured, and it is her presence that decreases baby's cortisol levels, especially in the first couple days and weeks.

Her presence specifically. Random people, even the child's father, do not decrease cortisol levels and increase oxytocin levels in children the way that the child's own birth mother does. So that's mother number two. And then mother number three is the social mother, the woman that is providing the daily maternal love that satisfies children's souls and maximizes their development.

Her presence specifically. Random people, even the child's father, do not decrease cortisol levels and increase oxytocin levels in children the way that the child's own birth mother does. So that's mother number two. And then mother number three is the social mother, the woman that is providing the daily maternal love that satisfies children's souls and maximizes their development.

So what surrogacy does is it splices what should be one person, mother, into three purchasable and optional women, the genetic mother who provides the egg, the birth mother that gestates the child, and the social mother that provides all of that female distinct nurturing that will, in essence, lead the child to that place of balance, thriving, and independence later on in life.

So what surrogacy does is it splices what should be one person, mother, into three purchasable and optional women, the genetic mother who provides the egg, the birth mother that gestates the child, and the social mother that provides all of that female distinct nurturing that will, in essence, lead the child to that place of balance, thriving, and independence later on in life.

And unfortunately, Dave and his husband David have starved their children of all three of those, not because of tragedy, intentionally and commercially.

And unfortunately, Dave and his husband David have starved their children of all three of those, not because of tragedy, intentionally and commercially.

And we might as well... I would rather have you ask me the hard questions because everybody in the audience is thinking that too. Do you know how?

And we might as well... I would rather have you ask me the hard questions because everybody in the audience is thinking that too. Do you know how?

Because one of the things we do at Them Before Us is we catalog the stories of children who have lost their mother or father to a variety of different adult interests, not due to tragedy, but because some adult wanted it that way on some level, what I call desire-based desire. maternal or paternal losses. And so one major category of that is children created through reproductive technologies.

Because one of the things we do at Them Before Us is we catalog the stories of children who have lost their mother or father to a variety of different adult interests, not due to tragedy, but because some adult wanted it that way on some level, what I call desire-based desire. maternal or paternal losses. And so one major category of that is children created through reproductive technologies.

Sperm and egg, quote unquote, donation, which is a misnomer. This isn't a buying or selling, or children created through surrogacy. And so you can imagine that many of the kids get these kinds of objections where they talk about how They're troubled by the fact that they have dozens or hundreds of half siblings because their father was a serial sperm donator.

Sperm and egg, quote unquote, donation, which is a misnomer. This isn't a buying or selling, or children created through surrogacy. And so you can imagine that many of the kids get these kinds of objections where they talk about how They're troubled by the fact that they have dozens or hundreds of half siblings because their father was a serial sperm donator.

Or maybe their mother donated her eggs to somebody. And so then they have questions like, who is my mother? Very normal questions. Very human child. The kind of questions that every human child asks at some point. Who is my mother? Who are the people that are responsible for me? This is questions that adoptees have overwhelmingly.

Or maybe their mother donated her eggs to somebody. And so then they have questions like, who is my mother? Very normal questions. Very human child. The kind of questions that every human child asks at some point. Who is my mother? Who are the people that are responsible for me? This is questions that adoptees have overwhelmingly.

These are questions that children created through sperm and egg donation have. Unfortunately, many of them, when they voice their concerns, when they voice their loss, when they voice their pain, what they hear is, would you rather be dead? So I think that this is pretty manipulative.

These are questions that children created through sperm and egg donation have. Unfortunately, many of them, when they voice their concerns, when they voice their loss, when they voice their pain, what they hear is, would you rather be dead? So I think that this is pretty manipulative.

I think it's a manipulative tactic to say you do not get to ask the questions or feel the kind of loss that every other human child has experienced throughout history because otherwise you wouldn't exist. So I say, look, there's other situations where we can be manipulative. For sure.

I think it's a manipulative tactic to say you do not get to ask the questions or feel the kind of loss that every other human child has experienced throughout history because otherwise you wouldn't exist. So I say, look, there's other situations where we can be manipulative. For sure.

Well, let me just say, we can be grateful for, recognize the dignity and the worth of these individual little lives, Dave and David's two children, that they are precious, worthy of life and protection. And I would actually say that means that we require that we be critical of the circumstances of their conception. The exact same way we would handle a child conceived through rape.

Well, let me just say, we can be grateful for, recognize the dignity and the worth of these individual little lives, Dave and David's two children, that they are precious, worthy of life and protection. And I would actually say that means that we require that we be critical of the circumstances of their conception. The exact same way we would handle a child conceived through rape.

Your life is altogether good. But I can be critical of the circumstances of your conception because you were brought about in a way that actually did not respect and protect your fundamental rights as a human.

Your life is altogether good. But I can be critical of the circumstances of your conception because you were brought about in a way that actually did not respect and protect your fundamental rights as a human.

I don't necessarily think that there is a delicate, nuanced line. And can it be iterated? And if you are going to do one thing that is going to be extrapolated for the general population, I'm kind of a simpleton in that I'm not a thought leader. I read the thought leaders. I listen to you and John Anderson. And I love Carl Truman. But I'm a translator. I listen to what you guys say.

I don't necessarily think that there is a delicate, nuanced line. And can it be iterated? And if you are going to do one thing that is going to be extrapolated for the general population, I'm kind of a simpleton in that I'm not a thought leader. I read the thought leaders. I listen to you and John Anderson. And I love Carl Truman. But I'm a translator. I listen to what you guys say.

I respect the policymakers, but I want to translate it down to something that is accessible and applicable for everybody. And I will tell you, I can use the same metric and rubric, and I think this is great for personal decisions and policy decisions. And that one rubric is adults should sacrifice so kids don't have to. We should not force children to do hard things on behalf of adults.

I respect the policymakers, but I want to translate it down to something that is accessible and applicable for everybody. And I will tell you, I can use the same metric and rubric, and I think this is great for personal decisions and policy decisions. And that one rubric is adults should sacrifice so kids don't have to. We should not force children to do hard things on behalf of adults.

And ultimately, any form of surrogacy is forcing children to sacrifice something so adults can have what they want. Nobody has a right to a child. Children have a right to their mother and father.

And ultimately, any form of surrogacy is forcing children to sacrifice something so adults can have what they want. Nobody has a right to a child. Children have a right to their mother and father.

But children have a right to- They don't have a right to acquire a child. You have a right to your own biological child. I mean, when you leave the hospital, you don't want to just leave with any baby. You want your baby. And you have a fundamental, natural, pre-political right to that baby.

But children have a right to- They don't have a right to acquire a child. You have a right to your own biological child. I mean, when you leave the hospital, you don't want to just leave with any baby. You want your baby. And you have a fundamental, natural, pre-political right to that baby.

But you don't have a right to acquire a child that then has to lose their genuine right to their mother or father so that they can be taken home by you. So there is not a nebulous right-

But you don't have a right to acquire a child that then has to lose their genuine right to their mother or father so that they can be taken home by you. So there is not a nebulous right-

Yeah, so first let me say, I think that there's an abuse of the word rights in our world, you know, and it's very much like a Mr. Incredibles thing. When everything's a right, nothing is a right. And unfortunately, it seems like whatever adults really, really, really, really want is conveniently framed as a right.

Yeah, so first let me say, I think that there's an abuse of the word rights in our world, you know, and it's very much like a Mr. Incredibles thing. When everything's a right, nothing is a right. And unfortunately, it seems like whatever adults really, really, really, really want is conveniently framed as a right.

But if you're looking at things from a natural law perspective, not necessarily what we would even consider to be a civil law, because civil laws can be out of step with natural laws. And again, I'm not a natural lawyer.

But if you're looking at things from a natural law perspective, not necessarily what we would even consider to be a civil law, because civil laws can be out of step with natural laws. And again, I'm not a natural lawyer.

thank God, one of the most well-renowned natural law scholars, Robert George, wrote the foreword for our first book, Them Before Us, Why We Need a Global Children's Rights Movement. So there is natural law precedence for this. But like I said, I'm a translator. And so I don't think in these kind of first principle ways.

thank God, one of the most well-renowned natural law scholars, Robert George, wrote the foreword for our first book, Them Before Us, Why We Need a Global Children's Rights Movement. So there is natural law precedence for this. But like I said, I'm a translator. And so I don't think in these kind of first principle ways.

I will tell you how to determine whether or not something is a natural right based on sort of my simplified understanding of natural rights. And then

I will tell you how to determine whether or not something is a natural right based on sort of my simplified understanding of natural rights. And then

we'll be able to figure out pretty easily whether or not you have a right to acquire a surrogate-born child, even though you're purchasing egg and renting the womb and taking the children across borders without any kind of background check, even though you've got a criminal history and you're a known pedophile, which has happened in surrogacy cases. So let's figure out to what extent

we'll be able to figure out pretty easily whether or not you have a right to acquire a surrogate-born child, even though you're purchasing egg and renting the womb and taking the children across borders without any kind of background check, even though you've got a criminal history and you're a known pedophile, which has happened in surrogacy cases. So let's figure out to what extent

children and adults have a natural right. So when I, my understanding of natural rights and my co-author Stacey Manning and I kind of detailed this out in our first book, there's three rules that make something a genuine natural right. Number one, it needs to exist pre-government, right? And that's kind of what our country was founded on is this idea that government doesn't give you rights.

children and adults have a natural right. So when I, my understanding of natural rights and my co-author Stacey Manning and I kind of detailed this out in our first book, there's three rules that make something a genuine natural right. Number one, it needs to exist pre-government, right? And that's kind of what our country was founded on is this idea that government doesn't give you rights.

They just recognize and protect rights. So a genuine natural right exists pre-government. So like your right to life, your right to life existed before the government. Government's not there to give it to you. They're there to protect it. Number two, nobody has to provide it for you.

They just recognize and protect rights. So a genuine natural right exists pre-government. So like your right to life, your right to life existed before the government. Government's not there to give it to you. They're there to protect it. Number two, nobody has to provide it for you.

So if it has to be like dug up from the ground, bottled, labeled, shipped, and put on a shelf, it's not a natural right. You might even need it to survive, but it's not necessarily a natural right. Number three, a natural right is given an equal distribution.

So if it has to be like dug up from the ground, bottled, labeled, shipped, and put on a shelf, it's not a natural right. You might even need it to survive, but it's not necessarily a natural right. Number three, a natural right is given an equal distribution.

So if there's a differentiation in terms of the level of attainment or achievement, a GED versus a PhD or a dorm versus Mar-a-Lago, it's not a natural right. If it's a genuine natural right, you have it in equal measure. Everybody gets exactly one life. Everybody has the same ability, should have the same ability to defend themselves, should have the same ability to speak.

So if there's a differentiation in terms of the level of attainment or achievement, a GED versus a PhD or a dorm versus Mar-a-Lago, it's not a natural right. If it's a genuine natural right, you have it in equal measure. Everybody gets exactly one life. Everybody has the same ability, should have the same ability to defend themselves, should have the same ability to speak.

And all of us, regardless of the technological tinkering that was done in some laboratory somewhere, have exactly two parents, one mother and one father. So children have a fundamental natural right to the two people responsible for their existence. Do adults have a right to acquire a child that is not biologically theirs?

And all of us, regardless of the technological tinkering that was done in some laboratory somewhere, have exactly two parents, one mother and one father. So children have a fundamental natural right to the two people responsible for their existence. Do adults have a right to acquire a child that is not biologically theirs?

No, they don't, because that violates the fundamental natural rights of kids.

No, they don't, because that violates the fundamental natural rights of kids.

Well, let me ask you, if you don't mind, What are the studies that we have on maternal loss and the impact that it has on kids? What are the studies that you know of, of kids that grow up without their mothers and how they fare?

Well, let me ask you, if you don't mind, What are the studies that we have on maternal loss and the impact that it has on kids? What are the studies that you know of, of kids that grow up without their mothers and how they fare?

There's one demographic in this country that's truly in the closet. It's kids with same-sex parents who desperately miss their mother or father.

There's one demographic in this country that's truly in the closet. It's kids with same-sex parents who desperately miss their mother or father.

The reason I asked you that is you couldn't think of any off the top of your head, right?

The reason I asked you that is you couldn't think of any off the top of your head, right?

Right. And that's because mother loss, it used to be that if the mother was gone, the baby's dead.

Right. And that's because mother loss, it used to be that if the mother was gone, the baby's dead.

Mother loss, the mother loss is so antithetical to our species, right? That mother and child are bonded so tightly, both in the ways that you're talking about in terms of like responsiveness of breast milk formulation. I mean, I always joke that... mother's breast milk will change whether or not she's nursing a boy or a girl.

Mother loss, the mother loss is so antithetical to our species, right? That mother and child are bonded so tightly, both in the ways that you're talking about in terms of like responsiveness of breast milk formulation. I mean, I always joke that... mother's breast milk will change whether or not she's nursing a boy or a girl.

So mom's boobs know male and female when a lot of Yale University professors do not, okay? I mean, like mother-infant bond and reciprocity between the two of them is primal. I mean, that's really the only word that you can have for it. And so we don't have a lot of studies of mother loss in children because it goes against the grain of what it means to be human.

So mom's boobs know male and female when a lot of Yale University professors do not, okay? I mean, like mother-infant bond and reciprocity between the two of them is primal. I mean, that's really the only word that you can have for it. And so we don't have a lot of studies of mother loss in children because it goes against the grain of what it means to be human.

And now we think we are just going to casually say, you know what, we can intentionally and commercially sever that bond between mother and child because we have the means to do it. And who am I to say that a woman who's 35 that has the means that desperately wants to be a mother who is going to take home her own genetic child? Who am I to say that she shouldn't do that? Well...

And now we think we are just going to casually say, you know what, we can intentionally and commercially sever that bond between mother and child because we have the means to do it. And who am I to say that a woman who's 35 that has the means that desperately wants to be a mother who is going to take home her own genetic child? Who am I to say that she shouldn't do that? Well...

I'm here to say, as best as I can, that I am representing the interest of that child. And the interest of that child is to not be intentionally separated from the only person they know the day that they are born. And I would say that the best example, the best proof that we have of the harms of that is adopted kids. And I say this as an adoptive mother.

I'm here to say, as best as I can, that I am representing the interest of that child. And the interest of that child is to not be intentionally separated from the only person they know the day that they are born. And I would say that the best example, the best proof that we have of the harms of that is adopted kids. And I say this as an adoptive mother.

I say it as a woman who is the former assistant director of the largest Chinese adoption agency in the world. Somebody that understands that adoption is an institution centered around the wellbeing of children. And it is an act of justice for children who have lost their parents. So I'm not anti-adoption.

I say it as a woman who is the former assistant director of the largest Chinese adoption agency in the world. Somebody that understands that adoption is an institution centered around the wellbeing of children. And it is an act of justice for children who have lost their parents. So I'm not anti-adoption.

I am telling you that adopted children have more externalizing disorders than the general population, even though they are raised by Homes that are statistically more stable Wealthier and adults who spend more time and money on them than the average population. So why is that?

I am telling you that adopted children have more externalizing disorders than the general population, even though they are raised by Homes that are statistically more stable Wealthier and adults who spend more time and money on them than the average population. So why is that?

It looks as though disruption of that primal bond with the birth mother has some kind of lifelong consequences and fallout.

It looks as though disruption of that primal bond with the birth mother has some kind of lifelong consequences and fallout.

Right. Well, and that's where most of what we have in terms of maternal harms is in rat populations. Why is that? It's because it's absolutely unethical to test this on human children. Because even brief maternal deprivation we know, based on those rat studies, can permanently alter the structure of a child's brain.

Right. Well, and that's where most of what we have in terms of maternal harms is in rat populations. Why is that? It's because it's absolutely unethical to test this on human children. Because even brief maternal deprivation we know, based on those rat studies, can permanently alter the structure of a child's brain.

So like when we start tinkering with the maternal-child bond, because some adults are sad. Or maybe they have an identity that leads them to a place where they do not have an egg or a womb between them. So then we're going to just bypass and ignore everything that we know about the nature of the human child and maternal deprivation and the harms that go along with maternal loss.

So like when we start tinkering with the maternal-child bond, because some adults are sad. Or maybe they have an identity that leads them to a place where they do not have an egg or a womb between them. So then we're going to just bypass and ignore everything that we know about the nature of the human child and maternal deprivation and the harms that go along with maternal loss.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree. I mean, just because I'm a mom and I'm an observer of reality and I'm around a lot of women and children and husbands and children, all of which, I mean, mothers and fathers offer distinct and complementary benefits to children. Neither of them are replaceable. Kids need a mom and a dad. And, you know, it's so interesting because...

I agree. I mean, just because I'm a mom and I'm an observer of reality and I'm around a lot of women and children and husbands and children, all of which, I mean, mothers and fathers offer distinct and complementary benefits to children. Neither of them are replaceable. Kids need a mom and a dad. And, you know, it's so interesting because...

And then I'm sure some of the objections that we're getting from some of the people that are listening to this, they'll say, well, and you know, Dave Rubin said this in your conversation with him, too, that his husband, David, is very nurturing and very empathetic. Yes, which is true. Yeah, sure. Well, you know, one of the other...

And then I'm sure some of the objections that we're getting from some of the people that are listening to this, they'll say, well, and you know, Dave Rubin said this in your conversation with him, too, that his husband, David, is very nurturing and very empathetic. Yes, which is true. Yeah, sure. Well, you know, one of the other...

categories of children whose stories we try to catalog at Them Before Us as children with same-sex parents. Our website, thembeforeus.com, probably has the largest story bank of kids with LGBT parents. And for a while, I had a very active group chat of kids with two moms or two dads who could just talk amongst themselves.

categories of children whose stories we try to catalog at Them Before Us as children with same-sex parents. Our website, thembeforeus.com, probably has the largest story bank of kids with LGBT parents. And for a while, I had a very active group chat of kids with two moms or two dads who could just talk amongst themselves.

Because I'll tell you, if there's one demographic in this country that's truly in the closet, it's kids with same-sex parents who desperately miss their mother or father, but cannot say that out loud because they are accused of being bigots and homophobes, even by people in their own family. So the place where they can talk to each other is sort of in these anonymous spaces.

Because I'll tell you, if there's one demographic in this country that's truly in the closet, it's kids with same-sex parents who desperately miss their mother or father, but cannot say that out loud because they are accused of being bigots and homophobes, even by people in their own family. So the place where they can talk to each other is sort of in these anonymous spaces.

And there were a lot of those kids who would openly admit, I mean, most of them had two moms. There was only one that had two dads at one point and they didn't stay too long. many of them would say, look, I had a femme mom and I had a butch mom. I mean, those words, their words, not mine. You know, the butch mom worked on cars, shaved her head, was stockier.

And there were a lot of those kids who would openly admit, I mean, most of them had two moms. There was only one that had two dads at one point and they didn't stay too long. many of them would say, look, I had a femme mom and I had a butch mom. I mean, those words, their words, not mine. You know, the butch mom worked on cars, shaved her head, was stockier.

And the femme mom, longer hair, kind of slim, worked in the kitchen. And I asked them, I said, did any of those butch moms meet your need for a father? And they're like, no, she was my butch mom. And I loved her, I appreciated her, I respected her, but I craved male love. So this is not the kind of thing where a man can put on sort of a feminine presence.

And the femme mom, longer hair, kind of slim, worked in the kitchen. And I asked them, I said, did any of those butch moms meet your need for a father? And they're like, no, she was my butch mom. And I loved her, I appreciated her, I respected her, but I craved male love. So this is not the kind of thing where a man can put on sort of a feminine presence.

Kids actually want, crave, need, deserve, and have a right to their mother and their father. They don't want somebody that acts masculine or acts feminine, at least from the kids that I know. And obviously, I probably have... a slanted sampling because the kids that are coming to me, many of which are going to come after this interview too.

Kids actually want, crave, need, deserve, and have a right to their mother and their father. They don't want somebody that acts masculine or acts feminine, at least from the kids that I know. And obviously, I probably have... a slanted sampling because the kids that are coming to me, many of which are going to come after this interview too.

We get tons of letters and testimonies from kids who cannot say this kind of thing out loud anywhere else.

We get tons of letters and testimonies from kids who cannot say this kind of thing out loud anywhere else.

They're incredibly rare. Yeah. Yeah. A quick note on same-sex parented studies. It's very rare to have high-quality studies. Interestingly, up until about 2005, there was a consensus among the social scientist community that children raised by their married biological mother and father fared best in a low-conflict marriage. I mean, that is what they tended to say in unison.

They're incredibly rare. Yeah. Yeah. A quick note on same-sex parented studies. It's very rare to have high-quality studies. Interestingly, up until about 2005, there was a consensus among the social scientist community that children raised by their married biological mother and father fared best in a low-conflict marriage. I mean, that is what they tended to say in unison.

And then strangely, in the lead up to Obergefell, in those 10 years, there was an explosion of studies that said that kids with two moms or two dads fared no different or even better than kids raised by heterosexual parents. Right. Right.

And then strangely, in the lead up to Obergefell, in those 10 years, there was an explosion of studies that said that kids with two moms or two dads fared no different or even better than kids raised by heterosexual parents. Right. Right.

Yeah, and then when you look at it, right, those 79 studies or whatever, many of which used the same data set and then reinterpreted and spun it to create multiple different studies. When you look at them, they all had very serious methodological problems. Like you said, not randomly derived. They were volunteered, recruited. There weren't adequate controls. They were very small sample sizes.

Yeah, and then when you look at it, right, those 79 studies or whatever, many of which used the same data set and then reinterpreted and spun it to create multiple different studies. When you look at them, they all had very serious methodological problems. Like you said, not randomly derived. They were volunteered, recruited. There weren't adequate controls. They were very small sample sizes.

They weren't longitudinal. They couldn't replicate them. And most of them had to do with the self-reporting of adults. Like there was even a study that came out Last year in Italy, you know, gay fathers, children, you know, did just as well as heterosexual parents. But you look at it and it's like gay fathers report that their children under 10 love having gay dads.

They weren't longitudinal. They couldn't replicate them. And most of them had to do with the self-reporting of adults. Like there was even a study that came out Last year in Italy, you know, gay fathers, children, you know, did just as well as heterosexual parents. But you look at it and it's like gay fathers report that their children under 10 love having gay dads.

I'm like, what you're saying is heterosexual parents are more honest about their shortcomings than gay fathers are. That's what you're talking about there. So it is going to be a long time.

I'm like, what you're saying is heterosexual parents are more honest about their shortcomings than gay fathers are. That's what you're talking about there. So it is going to be a long time.

First of all, there hasn't been a whole lot of studies since Obergefell, since gay marriage was legalized, because it was very obvious that there was a political push towards advancing those kinds of studies in the lead up to the Supreme Court's decision.

First of all, there hasn't been a whole lot of studies since Obergefell, since gay marriage was legalized, because it was very obvious that there was a political push towards advancing those kinds of studies in the lead up to the Supreme Court's decision.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

And that would be assumed you could get it funded. He did this.

And that would be assumed you could get it funded. He did this.

Yes, Mark Regnerus did that. He published a study in 2012, and he used the gold standard of social science. He got randomly derived participants. He asked the children themselves as adults what their outcomes were. Were they more likely to be sexually abused? Were they more likely to suffer emotional distress or depression? Were they more likely to be on welfare benefits? And the

Yes, Mark Regnerus did that. He published a study in 2012, and he used the gold standard of social science. He got randomly derived participants. He asked the children themselves as adults what their outcomes were. Were they more likely to be sexually abused? Were they more likely to suffer emotional distress or depression? Were they more likely to be on welfare benefits? And the

you know, the no difference study actually turned out to be a massive difference. And he almost lost his job. They came after his credentials. They made his life a living hell. And since then, just like you said, there's been a queering of family studies.

you know, the no difference study actually turned out to be a massive difference. And he almost lost his job. They came after his credentials. They made his life a living hell. And since then, just like you said, there's been a queering of family studies.

And so now you don't get funded unless there is a pre-political conclusion that you've already assigned to, subscribed to, and are advancing through that study. So Wouldn't it be nice if we had good data? That would be great. We don't. There's very few studies that apply that gold standard of sociological social science methodology.

And so now you don't get funded unless there is a pre-political conclusion that you've already assigned to, subscribed to, and are advancing through that study. So Wouldn't it be nice if we had good data? That would be great. We don't. There's very few studies that apply that gold standard of sociological social science methodology.

Yeah, my name is Katie Faust. I'm the founder and president of the children's rights nonprofit Them Before Us. The idea is we put them, the children, before us, the adults, in all matters of marriage and family. So what I do is I trigger people. That is what I do.

Yeah, my name is Katie Faust. I'm the founder and president of the children's rights nonprofit Them Before Us. The idea is we put them, the children, before us, the adults, in all matters of marriage and family. So what I do is I trigger people. That is what I do.

Paul Sullins did do it where he evaluated some government data and. no surprise, those no differences ended up being major differences, especially as it related to things like daily fearfulness, daily crying, higher levels of emotional distress, much higher levels of children who had educational IEPs, that kind of thing. And why are we surprised by this?

Paul Sullins did do it where he evaluated some government data and. no surprise, those no differences ended up being major differences, especially as it related to things like daily fearfulness, daily crying, higher levels of emotional distress, much higher levels of children who had educational IEPs, that kind of thing. And why are we surprised by this?

You know, anytime sociologists are not studying same-sex parenting, anytime they're doing any other kind of family structure study, they generally agree that biological parents advantage children in terms of they are more connected, more invested, and more protective of children. They generally agree that men and women offer distinct and complementary benefits to child rearing.

You know, anytime sociologists are not studying same-sex parenting, anytime they're doing any other kind of family structure study, they generally agree that biological parents advantage children in terms of they are more connected, more invested, and more protective of children. They generally agree that men and women offer distinct and complementary benefits to child rearing.

They generally agree that losing a parent to death, divorce, abandonment, results in child harms. They generally agree that an unrelated adult increases the child's risk of abuse and neglect.

They generally agree that losing a parent to death, divorce, abandonment, results in child harms. They generally agree that an unrelated adult increases the child's risk of abuse and neglect.

By a lot.

By a lot.

They have a, we have a name for it. It's called the Cinderella effect. Like that's how well established it is. You know, and Wilson and Daly, you know, the Canadian sociologists. They're great too, Wilson and Daly.

They have a, we have a name for it. It's called the Cinderella effect. Like that's how well established it is. You know, and Wilson and Daly, you know, the Canadian sociologists. They're great too, Wilson and Daly.

They're so good.

They're so good.

And yeah, what did they find? That rates of fatal beatings in kindergartners in Canada between the ages, between the years of like 1979 and 1990, 152. times greater at the hands of a stepfather. And so I just am like, okay, look, we know that the most dangerous place a child can find themselves in America today is in the home of an unrelated man left to care for the child himself.

And yeah, what did they find? That rates of fatal beatings in kindergartners in Canada between the ages, between the years of like 1979 and 1990, 152. times greater at the hands of a stepfather. And so I just am like, okay, look, we know that the most dangerous place a child can find themselves in America today is in the home of an unrelated man left to care for the child himself.

And so, but now somehow we're normalizing all of these other modern family forms where there's always an unrelated adult in the home, where the child's always being deprived of a biological parent, where they're very often missing the maternal or paternal love that maximizes child development. And somehow we're supposed to believe that these kids fare no different.

And so, but now somehow we're normalizing all of these other modern family forms where there's always an unrelated adult in the home, where the child's always being deprived of a biological parent, where they're very often missing the maternal or paternal love that maximizes child development. And somehow we're supposed to believe that these kids fare no different.

I mean, unfortunately, it's just one more example of why we cannot trust the institutions they've been captured by this woke ideology and its kids that are suffering.

I mean, unfortunately, it's just one more example of why we cannot trust the institutions they've been captured by this woke ideology and its kids that are suffering.

What I'm up to is a global takeover. That is what I'm up to.

What I'm up to is a global takeover. That is what I'm up to.

I do. That's right. Me and Klaus can go toe-to-toe, baby. Yeah, do you have a naked cat? Do you have a naked cat that you, like, carry around with you? No, no. But I do have cats. I've got multiple cats. Okay, okay. Well, that's close enough then.

I do. That's right. Me and Klaus can go toe-to-toe, baby. Yeah, do you have a naked cat? Do you have a naked cat that you, like, carry around with you? No, no. But I do have cats. I've got multiple cats. Okay, okay. Well, that's close enough then.

When you say that children's rights to life and right to their mother and father need to come before adult desires, really what you're saying is every adult has to accommodate and sacrifice at some point. So I tell people, give me enough time and I'll piss you off too because this is a worldview that does not discriminate between single, married, gay, straight, fertile and infertile.

When you say that children's rights to life and right to their mother and father need to come before adult desires, really what you're saying is every adult has to accommodate and sacrifice at some point. So I tell people, give me enough time and I'll piss you off too because this is a worldview that does not discriminate between single, married, gay, straight, fertile and infertile.

Yeah. I think that's offset by the fact that you have children. No. I do have children. Thank God, great children. Okay, so global takeover. Yeah, global takeover is what we're after. In fact, that's one of the reasons, that was the first thing I said to John Anderson when he invited me to join the advisory board. And you guys hadn't even named it yet, but he's like, we're doing this thing.

Yeah. I think that's offset by the fact that you have children. No. I do have children. Thank God, great children. Okay, so global takeover. Yeah, global takeover is what we're after. In fact, that's one of the reasons, that was the first thing I said to John Anderson when he invited me to join the advisory board. And you guys hadn't even named it yet, but he's like, we're doing this thing.

I was like, what are you doing? And he kind of described it and I'm like, ah, the righteous inverse of the world economic forum. Please let me in. So I love it. Let's do that same global influence, but not top-down elitism, bottom-up personal responsibility. But it does need to be global.

I was like, what are you doing? And he kind of described it and I'm like, ah, the righteous inverse of the world economic forum. Please let me in. So I love it. Let's do that same global influence, but not top-down elitism, bottom-up personal responsibility. But it does need to be global.

This movement to protect kids has to go into every country of the world because children in every country, their rights are under threat from the same cultural, legal, and technological forces that are seeking to...

This movement to protect kids has to go into every country of the world because children in every country, their rights are under threat from the same cultural, legal, and technological forces that are seeking to...

deconstruct their fundamental rights and relegate them to the status of accessory, to be cut and pasted into any and every adult relationship to the detriment of their identity formation, to the detriment of their safety and security, the investment, connection, protection that all children deserve. So how do we do it? What does the global takeover look like? And it has to be two things.

deconstruct their fundamental rights and relegate them to the status of accessory, to be cut and pasted into any and every adult relationship to the detriment of their identity formation, to the detriment of their safety and security, the investment, connection, protection that all children deserve. So how do we do it? What does the global takeover look like? And it has to be two things.

We want to change hearts. and we want to change laws. It has to be both. So last year we did, you know, a hundred interviews published on dozens of platforms, making the case that all adults need to sacrifice for children because the only alternative is for children to sacrifice for adults. And that is an injustice. Anytime you have the weak sacrificing for the strong,

We want to change hearts. and we want to change laws. It has to be both. So last year we did, you know, a hundred interviews published on dozens of platforms, making the case that all adults need to sacrifice for children because the only alternative is for children to sacrifice for adults. And that is an injustice. Anytime you have the weak sacrificing for the strong,

That's all the evidence that you need that something unjust is taking place. That is never the pattern of justice. It always needs to be the strong sacrificing for the weak. So you want to talk practicality?

That's all the evidence that you need that something unjust is taking place. That is never the pattern of justice. It always needs to be the strong sacrificing for the weak. So you want to talk practicality?

Forcing children to sacrifice something so adults can have what they want. Nobody has a right to a child. Children have a right to their mother and father.

Forcing children to sacrifice something so adults can have what they want. Nobody has a right to a child. Children have a right to their mother and father.

Yes. I think that there, again, you get into the waters of mislabeling adult desires as rights. A right to choose, a right to reproductive freedom, a right to parenthood. All of those things really just mean I'm going to cut the child's mother or father out of their life, or I'm going to snuff out a child's right to life. So it's very important that we properly define rights.

Yes. I think that there, again, you get into the waters of mislabeling adult desires as rights. A right to choose, a right to reproductive freedom, a right to parenthood. All of those things really just mean I'm going to cut the child's mother or father out of their life, or I'm going to snuff out a child's right to life. So it's very important that we properly define rights.

Children's right to life, children's right to their mother and father. You could add to that children's right to innocence, not to have their... You know, not to have their innocence adulterated by sexualized or whatever. Certainly a right to an intact, unmedicalized body, not to have their healthy organs amputated or chemically sterilized through transgender treatments.

Children's right to life, children's right to their mother and father. You could add to that children's right to innocence, not to have their... You know, not to have their innocence adulterated by sexualized or whatever. Certainly a right to an intact, unmedicalized body, not to have their healthy organs amputated or chemically sterilized through transgender treatments.

This is a world where if you're going to put children first, all adults must conform to those fundamental rights. And that means that it is going to run up against all of our self-interest at some point. So I think it's a necessary message. I think that it's critical not just to, you know, national thriving, but national surviving. But it does come at an individual cost for all of us.

This is a world where if you're going to put children first, all adults must conform to those fundamental rights. And that means that it is going to run up against all of our self-interest at some point. So I think it's a necessary message. I think that it's critical not just to, you know, national thriving, but national surviving. But it does come at an individual cost for all of us.

I mean, the truth is that if you prioritize kids, if you defend their life, family, mind, and body, you kind of win the culture war. You get the right answer to all of the major issues that we're facing, especially culturally, especially emotionally.

I mean, the truth is that if you prioritize kids, if you defend their life, family, mind, and body, you kind of win the culture war. You get the right answer to all of the major issues that we're facing, especially culturally, especially emotionally.

whenever it intersects with the primary question of what it means to be human, if you can elevate and exalt the rights of children, you get the right personal decisions and you get the right policy decisions. So we are absolutely out there to change hearts, but we also want to change laws

whenever it intersects with the primary question of what it means to be human, if you can elevate and exalt the rights of children, you get the right personal decisions and you get the right policy decisions. So we are absolutely out there to change hearts, but we also want to change laws

So many of these child commodifying, child victimizing ideas, technologies, and laws go completely unchallenged. There is nobody to speak up on behalf of children. And maybe, very likely, I'm not the most qualified person to do this, but nobody was doing it. And so that's what we aim to do, is we aim to represent children well. give them a voice when it comes to battling back bad legislation.

So many of these child commodifying, child victimizing ideas, technologies, and laws go completely unchallenged. There is nobody to speak up on behalf of children. And maybe, very likely, I'm not the most qualified person to do this, but nobody was doing it. And so that's what we aim to do, is we aim to represent children well. give them a voice when it comes to battling back bad legislation.

We're at the place this year where we're able to propose some policy recommendations, especially for state-level lawmakers who want to claw back some of the lost territory when it comes to losing the marriage and family battle, you know, state after state and nation after nation.

We're at the place this year where we're able to propose some policy recommendations, especially for state-level lawmakers who want to claw back some of the lost territory when it comes to losing the marriage and family battle, you know, state after state and nation after nation.

So much in there to unpack. First of all, we certainly are seeing an increase in infertility struggles. Obviously, a lot of that is environmental, but a lot of it is because women are squandering their primary childbearing years. doing other things.

So much in there to unpack. First of all, we certainly are seeing an increase in infertility struggles. Obviously, a lot of that is environmental, but a lot of it is because women are squandering their primary childbearing years. doing other things.

I mean, you are hyper fertile in your twenties and somewhat in your early thirties, but not so much in your late thirties and definitely not in your forties. I mean, once you get to be 35 and you're pregnant, that's a geriatric pregnancy baby. I mean, you've got a really narrow window to have children. And so, especially if you want more than one, you have to get started sooner.

I mean, you are hyper fertile in your twenties and somewhat in your early thirties, but not so much in your late thirties and definitely not in your forties. I mean, once you get to be 35 and you're pregnant, that's a geriatric pregnancy baby. I mean, you've got a really narrow window to have children. And so, especially if you want more than one, you have to get started sooner.

So a lot of, I think that a lot of the infertility crisis that we're seeing is actually just a marriage formation crisis. And because people are starting too late, And so, you know, I tell young women when I speak to them, you really can have it all. I mean, I have the most blessed, incredible, rich life.

So a lot of, I think that a lot of the infertility crisis that we're seeing is actually just a marriage formation crisis. And because people are starting too late, And so, you know, I tell young women when I speak to them, you really can have it all. I mean, I have the most blessed, incredible, rich life.

I mean, I have an incredible career where I'm doing what I feel called to do, even though obviously there's a cost and it's uncomfortable and all of that. But I also have four incredible kids who are 21, 19, 17 and 15. And I tell women, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at once. And you better have marriage and kids first. Do that first. Now, sometimes you don't get to choose.

I mean, I have an incredible career where I'm doing what I feel called to do, even though obviously there's a cost and it's uncomfortable and all of that. But I also have four incredible kids who are 21, 19, 17 and 15. And I tell women, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at once. And you better have marriage and kids first. Do that first. Now, sometimes you don't get to choose.

I know a lot of wonderful women that are those 30-year-old women who don't have kids yet, who desperately want to and wish that they were married and wanted to be married when they were 22. But I also know women who could have been married when they were 22 or 25 or 27 or 35 and put it off because the world was telling them, you have plenty of time.

I know a lot of wonderful women that are those 30-year-old women who don't have kids yet, who desperately want to and wish that they were married and wanted to be married when they were 22. But I also know women who could have been married when they were 22 or 25 or 27 or 35 and put it off because the world was telling them, you have plenty of time.

Or actually, real equality means getting your master's degree or making partner at the law firm. And then you discover woefully too late. that you were lied to, and now you have a life of emptiness and solitude ahead. And it is incredibly dark. And some of those women, I pray, find fellowship, community, and family in a body of believers at church.

Or actually, real equality means getting your master's degree or making partner at the law firm. And then you discover woefully too late. that you were lied to, and now you have a life of emptiness and solitude ahead. And it is incredibly dark. And some of those women, I pray, find fellowship, community, and family in a body of believers at church.

But you are shortchanging women, especially the ones that long for it, of something that really will make them, bring them alive and bring them forward. long-term joy, protection, investment, connection in a way that somebody that you're paying to care for you is never going to be able to provide. Ultimately, like all of the different questions, you talked about MADE.

But you are shortchanging women, especially the ones that long for it, of something that really will make them, bring them alive and bring them forward. long-term joy, protection, investment, connection in a way that somebody that you're paying to care for you is never going to be able to provide. Ultimately, like all of the different questions, you talked about MADE.

We're talking about the population crisis. We're talking about all of these reproductive technologies and these different forms of family. Ultimately, they all have the same source. It's the same question. It all comes down to the same thing. And the question is, what does it mean to be human? Right? What does it mean to be human?

We're talking about the population crisis. We're talking about all of these reproductive technologies and these different forms of family. Ultimately, they all have the same source. It's the same question. It all comes down to the same thing. And the question is, what does it mean to be human? Right? What does it mean to be human?

And honestly, like a word for the Christians out there, you are the ones with the right answer to this. I mean, the humanists did not get it right. The postmodernists did not get it right. The evolutionists don't get it right.

And honestly, like a word for the Christians out there, you are the ones with the right answer to this. I mean, the humanists did not get it right. The postmodernists did not get it right. The evolutionists don't get it right.

You, the ones that understand the Imago Dei, you, the one that understands who gives and who takes life, you who understands that we are made in the image of God, male and female. He created them. You who understand that Job, Isaiah, and Jeremiah were all set apart in the womb. You who understand that Christ came incarnate as a child, as an infant, and said, let the little children come to me.

You, the ones that understand the Imago Dei, you, the one that understands who gives and who takes life, you who understands that we are made in the image of God, male and female. He created them. You who understand that Job, Isaiah, and Jeremiah were all set apart in the womb. You who understand that Christ came incarnate as a child, as an infant, and said, let the little children come to me.

And if you want to attain the kingdom of heaven, you have to become like one of these. You who understand that God has devised serious corporal punishment if you cause one of these little ones to stumble. You are the ones, Christians, who have the right answer to what it means to be human.

And if you want to attain the kingdom of heaven, you have to become like one of these. You who understand that God has devised serious corporal punishment if you cause one of these little ones to stumble. You are the ones, Christians, who have the right answer to what it means to be human.

And the world is desperate for us to take that truth into all these conversations about marriage, family formation, death with dignity, abortion, IVF, reproductive technologies, surrogacy, marriage, transgenderism.

And the world is desperate for us to take that truth into all these conversations about marriage, family formation, death with dignity, abortion, IVF, reproductive technologies, surrogacy, marriage, transgenderism.

Every single thing, every hot button topic, everything that gets you canceled on Facebook and everything that gets you banned from Thanksgiving dinner ultimately comes down to what does it mean to be human? And that is a life-saving answer. That is a child protective answer. It's a civilizational defending answer.

Every single thing, every hot button topic, everything that gets you canceled on Facebook and everything that gets you banned from Thanksgiving dinner ultimately comes down to what does it mean to be human? And that is a life-saving answer. That is a child protective answer. It's a civilizational defending answer.

So you need to increase your knowledge and then increase your voice in the public sphere. It probably is the thing that is going to save the nation.

So you need to increase your knowledge and then increase your voice in the public sphere. It probably is the thing that is going to save the nation.

Yeah, I've got a couple of those in my house. Well, passing through my house. I've got a 19-year-old and a 21-year-old daughter. And, you know, what we tell them is, especially during the teen years, your job is friendship. Like, I think we have a marriage crisis in this country because we have a dating crisis. And we have a dating crisis because we have a friendship crisis.

Yeah, I've got a couple of those in my house. Well, passing through my house. I've got a 19-year-old and a 21-year-old daughter. And, you know, what we tell them is, especially during the teen years, your job is friendship. Like, I think we have a marriage crisis in this country because we have a dating crisis. And we have a dating crisis because we have a friendship crisis.

It is very hard for young people these days to have to form and maintain healthy peer relationships. obviously because the digital space has taken over a lot of their peer-to-peer communications. And so you really do have to train your kids to maximize and develop their same-sex friendships during the teen years. A lot of that is gonna be modeling.

It is very hard for young people these days to have to form and maintain healthy peer relationships. obviously because the digital space has taken over a lot of their peer-to-peer communications. And so you really do have to train your kids to maximize and develop their same-sex friendships during the teen years. A lot of that is gonna be modeling.

Are you modeling good same-sex friendships in terms of vulnerability, but good boundaries where you need it with different people? Are you showing them the transparency, how you need one another, how you rejoice when they rejoice and mourn when they mourn? I mean, you become what you behold, okay, for better or worse. And so model great friendships, obviously. I am of the persuasion.

Are you modeling good same-sex friendships in terms of vulnerability, but good boundaries where you need it with different people? Are you showing them the transparency, how you need one another, how you rejoice when they rejoice and mourn when they mourn? I mean, you become what you behold, okay, for better or worse. And so model great friendships, obviously. I am of the persuasion.

I am not one of the kind of kissed dating goodbye Christians, courtship only. I actually do think that... There is a role for dating in high school and college because I do think that you need to appropriately practice interacting with the opposite sex. So I've told my daughters, you know, when they're juniors and seniors, that if a boy has the guts to say, do you want to go out and get coffee?

I am not one of the kind of kissed dating goodbye Christians, courtship only. I actually do think that... There is a role for dating in high school and college because I do think that you need to appropriately practice interacting with the opposite sex. So I've told my daughters, you know, when they're juniors and seniors, that if a boy has the guts to say, do you want to go out and get coffee?

You should say, yeah, I'd love to. You need to reward him for having the courage to ask you in person to do that. You don't have to say yes, and of course, you never need to do it if you feel creeped out or anything like that. But there is a, you know, you talk about men being civilized, and I would say... The proper understanding of that is that women civilize the men.

You should say, yeah, I'd love to. You need to reward him for having the courage to ask you in person to do that. You don't have to say yes, and of course, you never need to do it if you feel creeped out or anything like that. But there is a, you know, you talk about men being civilized, and I would say... The proper understanding of that is that women civilize the men.

It is women that have the civilizing effect on men. And, you know, the example I always use is when I see when I'm walking down the street in Seattle and I see three men coming towards me on the sidewalk, I don't care how big they are, what race they are. I will cross to the other side of the street. I'm not going to walk past them.

It is women that have the civilizing effect on men. And, you know, the example I always use is when I see when I'm walking down the street in Seattle and I see three men coming towards me on the sidewalk, I don't care how big they are, what race they are. I will cross to the other side of the street. I'm not going to walk past them.

But if I see those three men walking hand in hand with their girlfriend or wives, I'm not going to cross the street. OK, there's just something in me that knows that male behavior has changed because they are now united and they've bonded themselves to a woman in some way. OK, so I tell my girls, you have an incredible power on men to elevate their behavior.

But if I see those three men walking hand in hand with their girlfriend or wives, I'm not going to cross the street. OK, there's just something in me that knows that male behavior has changed because they are now united and they've bonded themselves to a woman in some way. OK, so I tell my girls, you have an incredible power on men to elevate their behavior.

behavior, their choices, their decisions by how we respond to them, okay? It is the soft power that shapes the world, right? That's what women really are, the soft power that shapes the world, not the dominant naggy power, the soft, beautiful alluring power that changes the world. So I do think that there's a role of dating.

behavior, their choices, their decisions by how we respond to them, okay? It is the soft power that shapes the world, right? That's what women really are, the soft power that shapes the world, not the dominant naggy power, the soft, beautiful alluring power that changes the world. So I do think that there's a role of dating.

And I do think that we should encourage healthy dating, not drunkenness, not permanent friend zone, not jumping in and hooking up. A slow, careful dating relationship where there's parental involvement, where you can evaluate, especially worldview alignment. And then when you get into college, I mean, I told my

And I do think that we should encourage healthy dating, not drunkenness, not permanent friend zone, not jumping in and hooking up. A slow, careful dating relationship where there's parental involvement, where you can evaluate, especially worldview alignment. And then when you get into college, I mean, I told my

19-year-old who is an incredible soccer player and just, oh my gosh, all of my kids are incredible. My 19-year-old was looking for a college. She considered one that had a 75% female to male ratio. And I said, you won't even apply to that college. Absolutely not.

19-year-old who is an incredible soccer player and just, oh my gosh, all of my kids are incredible. My 19-year-old was looking for a college. She considered one that had a 75% female to male ratio. And I said, you won't even apply to that college. Absolutely not.

Like this is your primary age, the primary window for you to find somebody who is like-minded, join your life to them in a cornerstone kind of marriage, not a capstone marriage where you figure it all out and then put the cherry on the top marriage. No, we're going to be strategic about who you're exposed to between the ages of 18 and 22. This is your chance.

Like this is your primary age, the primary window for you to find somebody who is like-minded, join your life to them in a cornerstone kind of marriage, not a capstone marriage where you figure it all out and then put the cherry on the top marriage. No, we're going to be strategic about who you're exposed to between the ages of 18 and 22. This is your chance.

And I think parents have a huge role to play in encouraging early family formation, early marriage, proper dating. You can't control everything. You shouldn't try to control everything. But the messages that you send, the signals that you send, the environments you put your kid in, it can lead them to the place where they are not involuntarily single when they're 30.

And I think parents have a huge role to play in encouraging early family formation, early marriage, proper dating. You can't control everything. You shouldn't try to control everything. But the messages that you send, the signals that you send, the environments you put your kid in, it can lead them to the place where they are not involuntarily single when they're 30.

That's right.

That's right.

Keep your daughters away.

Keep your daughters away.

Yeah. And I will say that I think that there's a lot of people that are talking about how good marriage is for men, for example. Like, thank God there's been a resurgence of interest in, actually, this is a vehicle of maturation for men. This is a wealth-creating institution for adults. This is good for women in terms of aligning with kind of the natural design of their body.

Yeah. And I will say that I think that there's a lot of people that are talking about how good marriage is for men, for example. Like, thank God there's been a resurgence of interest in, actually, this is a vehicle of maturation for men. This is a wealth-creating institution for adults. This is good for women in terms of aligning with kind of the natural design of their body.

It all comes down to the same thing. And the question is, what does it mean to be human? I'm going to scrap this out with you.

It all comes down to the same thing. And the question is, what does it mean to be human? I'm going to scrap this out with you.

That's exactly right. Yeah, a few things. Another thing that the sexual revolution did, not just handing women over to the worst of all men, but it made women, it made young girls very hungry for any kind of male attention because it disproportionately starved them of the paternal love that was supposed to satisfy that longing for male attention. And so, you know, through the course of the

That's exactly right. Yeah, a few things. Another thing that the sexual revolution did, not just handing women over to the worst of all men, but it made women, it made young girls very hungry for any kind of male attention because it disproportionately starved them of the paternal love that was supposed to satisfy that longing for male attention. And so, you know, through the course of the

You know, the last couple decades where we decided to abandon the traditional notions of sex only within marriage was meant children generally being bored to a household where they were going to have daily contact with both their mother and their father. Now we have girls who grew up without their father or with a revolving door of different men coming in and out of their mother's lives.

You know, the last couple decades where we decided to abandon the traditional notions of sex only within marriage was meant children generally being bored to a household where they were going to have daily contact with both their mother and their father. Now we have girls who grew up without their father or with a revolving door of different men coming in and out of their mother's lives.

On average, as you know, these girls will start their periods a year early, a whole year earlier than their counterparts.

On average, as you know, these girls will start their periods a year early, a whole year earlier than their counterparts.

That's exactly right. So their bodies are literally signaling, I need to search for a man. And so now not only are there more men that are predatory for girls, but now there's more girls that, you know, we call this father hunger in our work, mother hunger or father hunger.

That's exactly right. So their bodies are literally signaling, I need to search for a man. And so now not only are there more men that are predatory for girls, but now there's more girls that, you know, we call this father hunger in our work, mother hunger or father hunger.

Like, maybe you've got, you know, two moms or two dads who love you or a single mom who's providing for you materially, but they do not meet your need for male or female love. And so you hunger for it. And this is why you see incredibly high rates of teen pregnancy among girls who are fatherless, right? Because... They didn't have that daily male love that they longed for, but they found it.

Like, maybe you've got, you know, two moms or two dads who love you or a single mom who's providing for you materially, but they do not meet your need for male or female love. And so you hunger for it. And this is why you see incredibly high rates of teen pregnancy among girls who are fatherless, right? Because... They didn't have that daily male love that they longed for, but they found it.

And I'm so grateful for those voices. I want to be the voice that speaks for kids. Kids don't lobby. They can't hire lawyers. They don't submit amicus briefs. They don't speak at conferences. They don't submit articles and papers and op-eds. That is what to me is missing, is representing the rights and well-being interests and desires of children.

And I'm so grateful for those voices. I want to be the voice that speaks for kids. Kids don't lobby. They can't hire lawyers. They don't submit amicus briefs. They don't speak at conferences. They don't submit articles and papers and op-eds. That is what to me is missing, is representing the rights and well-being interests and desires of children.

Maybe they only found it for five minutes on a Friday night, but they found it. And so I think the sexual revolution has been bad for women. Of course, my argument is it has been especially bad for children, you know, perpetuating terrible cycles. A note on Tammy's podcast, if you have not watched it, you should go subscribe.

Maybe they only found it for five minutes on a Friday night, but they found it. And so I think the sexual revolution has been bad for women. Of course, my argument is it has been especially bad for children, you know, perpetuating terrible cycles. A note on Tammy's podcast, if you have not watched it, you should go subscribe.

She has done some really fantastic interviews on this topic of, you know, a proper understanding of what it means to be a woman, female, The interviews she's done on the effects of birth control on women's brains, I have sent out to tons of people. So it's very worthy of your time and attention for that.

She has done some really fantastic interviews on this topic of, you know, a proper understanding of what it means to be a woman, female, The interviews she's done on the effects of birth control on women's brains, I have sent out to tons of people. So it's very worthy of your time and attention for that.

In terms of my daughters and limits and elevating the behavior of the men around them, I will tell you that both of them got a lot of attention from guys. Most of the guys were not worthy of a lot of their time and attention. But I will say that there were a few times where... They said no. I mean, I'm not talking about a major sexual advance. I'm just saying, no, you can't have my attention.

In terms of my daughters and limits and elevating the behavior of the men around them, I will tell you that both of them got a lot of attention from guys. Most of the guys were not worthy of a lot of their time and attention. But I will say that there were a few times where... They said no. I mean, I'm not talking about a major sexual advance. I'm just saying, no, you can't have my attention.

No, I won't be your girlfriend. No, I won't continue to be your girlfriend if you continue to do these kinds of things. And then they watched the men, the young men, the 16-year-old, 17-year-old reform because... the girl has something they want, even if it's just attention, even if it's just saying she is my girlfriend.

No, I won't be your girlfriend. No, I won't continue to be your girlfriend if you continue to do these kinds of things. And then they watched the men, the young men, the 16-year-old, 17-year-old reform because... the girl has something they want, even if it's just attention, even if it's just saying she is my girlfriend.

Yeah. So I just think that, you know, my daughters have seen the incredible power of no.

Yeah. So I just think that, you know, my daughters have seen the incredible power of no.

And I will tell young girls, because I, you know, I've been involved in youth ministry for decades. I was running the youth ministry at our church until about a year ago. And I tell girls, like, if there's a guy that you really like, and if you want him to pursue you, you say no to pretty much everything. No, I won't hold your hand. No, I mean, be kind, right?

And I will tell young girls, because I, you know, I've been involved in youth ministry for decades. I was running the youth ministry at our church until about a year ago. And I tell girls, like, if there's a guy that you really like, and if you want him to pursue you, you say no to pretty much everything. No, I won't hold your hand. No, I mean, be kind, right?

Yeah, you can go on a date, but if it has to do with a physical advance, the more you say no, the more your desirability goes up. If you want him to move on, give him what he wants physically. No, give him what his whims want.

Yeah, you can go on a date, but if it has to do with a physical advance, the more you say no, the more your desirability goes up. If you want him to move on, give him what he wants physically. No, give him what his whims want.

Yes, that's right.

Yes, that's right.

That's right. Yep, that's exactly right. Kids lose, kids lose. Anytime sex is happening outside of long-term committed, heterosexual, permanent... unions, kids will always pay the price for that. I think that that's one of the reasons why we are where we are in terms of marriage and family is we have pretended like there's no cost. But there is a cost. There's always a cost to kids.

That's right. Yep, that's exactly right. Kids lose, kids lose. Anytime sex is happening outside of long-term committed, heterosexual, permanent... unions, kids will always pay the price for that. I think that that's one of the reasons why we are where we are in terms of marriage and family is we have pretended like there's no cost. But there is a cost. There's always a cost to kids.

We've said if the adults are happy, the kids will be happy. We've said biology doesn't matter. Love makes a family. But that's not true. Somebody is always going to pay the price. It's just the kids who pay it because they can't defend their own rights.

We've said if the adults are happy, the kids will be happy. We've said biology doesn't matter. Love makes a family. But that's not true. Somebody is always going to pay the price. It's just the kids who pay it because they can't defend their own rights.

And it's because it's so easy to steamroll their interests because they can't speak for themselves. They are literally just... at the mercy of whatever it is adults decide for them, whether it's in the cultural, legal, or technological space. So obviously, I think that what's good for kids ultimately is going to be down to the benefit of all of society.

And it's because it's so easy to steamroll their interests because they can't speak for themselves. They are literally just... at the mercy of whatever it is adults decide for them, whether it's in the cultural, legal, or technological space. So obviously, I think that what's good for kids ultimately is going to be down to the benefit of all of society.

I don't think it's an accident that what's good for kids also in the long term ends up being good for men and women and all of society. But to me, the missing piece is accurately representing the interests of children in all of these conversations. So if I do my job, that's what we're going to be talking about today.

I don't think it's an accident that what's good for kids also in the long term ends up being good for men and women and all of society. But to me, the missing piece is accurately representing the interests of children in all of these conversations. So if I do my job, that's what we're going to be talking about today.

i think that a lot of people are going to say well are you sure you're not just advancing your own religious agenda or your own self-interest in the name of child protection and i would say you suspect that because you are massively projecting that is literally what progressives have been doing on every single issue for decades is cloaking some of the most child-destroying ideologies in the name of child protection or even child rights so i understand why that's a suspicion it's because it's a very well-known playbook especially on the left

i think that a lot of people are going to say well are you sure you're not just advancing your own religious agenda or your own self-interest in the name of child protection and i would say you suspect that because you are massively projecting that is literally what progressives have been doing on every single issue for decades is cloaking some of the most child-destroying ideologies in the name of child protection or even child rights so i understand why that's a suspicion it's because it's a very well-known playbook especially on the left

Why am I doing this? And also, how are you not falling into that yourself, right?

Why am I doing this? And also, how are you not falling into that yourself, right?

Well, yeah, we'll find out. You can let me know. We'll have a little J.B.P. evaluation at the end of this and you can let me know. You can give me the big Caesar pass fail. So I didn't get into this by choice. Like in the in the world of sort of Christian and I'm like, I'll just state right up front. I am like a Bible thumping evangelical to the max. Like you want evangelical credentials now.

Well, yeah, we'll find out. You can let me know. We'll have a little J.B.P. evaluation at the end of this and you can let me know. You can give me the big Caesar pass fail. So I didn't get into this by choice. Like in the in the world of sort of Christian and I'm like, I'll just state right up front. I am like a Bible thumping evangelical to the max. Like you want evangelical credentials now.

I got you. Okay. So on that spectrum, I think that most Christians fall into either the truth tellers that are just constantly hammering away at the truth or the grace givers, the people that want to keep the peace and bring together, you know, all different kinds of people. I am a grace giver. But, but, but. The marriage debate is what like flipped the switch for me.

I got you. Okay. So on that spectrum, I think that most Christians fall into either the truth tellers that are just constantly hammering away at the truth or the grace givers, the people that want to keep the peace and bring together, you know, all different kinds of people. I am a grace giver. But, but, but. The marriage debate is what like flipped the switch for me.

You know, I took your big five personality test and I'm like 100% on extrovert. Conscientious, nah, kind of. Agreeable, 85%. Like I will go along with almost anything. But when it is injustice against children, I see red. I just can't handle it. And that's what happened in the marriage debate.

You know, I took your big five personality test and I'm like 100% on extrovert. Conscientious, nah, kind of. Agreeable, 85%. Like I will go along with almost anything. But when it is injustice against children, I see red. I just can't handle it. And that's what happened in the marriage debate.

What I saw, especially when the gay marriage discussion came to my state, Washington State, I saw this progressive agenda being pushed on the backs of child brokenness. when they dared to connect marriage with parenting, which it wasn't always.

What I saw, especially when the gay marriage discussion came to my state, Washington State, I saw this progressive agenda being pushed on the backs of child brokenness. when they dared to connect marriage with parenting, which it wasn't always.

A lot of times they advanced to gay marriage on the total separation of the procreative aspect that has always been sort of the foundation for marriage idea, marriage policy, social ideas about marriage through millennia. So a lot of gay marriage was disconnecting those two. This isn't about kids. Oh, there's a lot of heterosexuals that can't have kids. So gays can be married too. So

A lot of times they advanced to gay marriage on the total separation of the procreative aspect that has always been sort of the foundation for marriage idea, marriage policy, social ideas about marriage through millennia. So a lot of gay marriage was disconnecting those two. This isn't about kids. Oh, there's a lot of heterosexuals that can't have kids. So gays can be married too. So

But when they did connect it to kids, what they said, what I heard them saying is kids don't care if they have two moms or two dads. But functionally what that means is kids don't care if they have lost their mom or lost their dad. That's what you're talking about. When you see the picture of a child with two moms, you're looking at a picture of a child who has lost their dad.

But when they did connect it to kids, what they said, what I heard them saying is kids don't care if they have two moms or two dads. But functionally what that means is kids don't care if they have lost their mom or lost their dad. That's what you're talking about. When you see the picture of a child with two moms, you're looking at a picture of a child who has lost their dad.

When you're looking at a child with two dads, you are looking at a little girl or a little boy who has lost their mother. Now, Sometimes that happens through tragedy. We used to experience that kind of, especially father loss on a mass scale, for example, after wars. Before modern medicine, we used to experience mother loss at the time of birth.

When you're looking at a child with two dads, you are looking at a little girl or a little boy who has lost their mother. Now, Sometimes that happens through tragedy. We used to experience that kind of, especially father loss on a mass scale, for example, after wars. Before modern medicine, we used to experience mother loss at the time of birth.

But thank God, due to modern warfare and modern technology, we are not seeing father and mother loss to tragedy on a mass scale like that. What we are now seeing is mother and father loss intentionally and now due to reproductive technologies commercially. But we're not looking at it as tragic anymore. Now we're looking at it as a step of progress.

But thank God, due to modern warfare and modern technology, we are not seeing father and mother loss to tragedy on a mass scale like that. What we are now seeing is mother and father loss intentionally and now due to reproductive technologies commercially. But we're not looking at it as tragic anymore. Now we're looking at it as a step of progress.

So my husband and I had been working with kids in a variety of different ways for a couple of decades at that point. And I will tell you. had not met a kid who lost their mother or father or who, at minimum, was not curious about the identity of that missing man and woman. But very, very often, it was the primal wound.

So my husband and I had been working with kids in a variety of different ways for a couple of decades at that point. And I will tell you. had not met a kid who lost their mother or father or who, at minimum, was not curious about the identity of that missing man and woman. But very, very often, it was the primal wound.

It was the thing that you could barely touch, that you couldn't even get near without them flinching, without them crying. You know, when we were doing the lock-ins for the kids in middle school and high school, and there's that one kid that wants to stay up at 3 a.m. and talk with you in the middle of the gym floor when all the other kids are sleeping, you know what they wanna talk with you about?

It was the thing that you could barely touch, that you couldn't even get near without them flinching, without them crying. You know, when we were doing the lock-ins for the kids in middle school and high school, and there's that one kid that wants to stay up at 3 a.m. and talk with you in the middle of the gym floor when all the other kids are sleeping, you know what they wanna talk with you about?

Where is my father? Why doesn't he love me? Where did he go? Where is my mother? Why did she leave me? Why did she divorce my father? Why did she move across the state? It must have been me. There must have been something wrong with me.

Where is my father? Why doesn't he love me? Where did he go? Where is my mother? Why did she leave me? Why did she divorce my father? Why did she move across the state? It must have been me. There must have been something wrong with me.

And so this idea that you can just casually cut out a child's mother or father, and it's going to not affect them at all, and that you were going to push some ever-widening progressive goalposts on the backs of fundamental harm to children, that was sort of the tipping point on the other side of the 85% for me, where I said, get behind me, Satan. Now we roll.

And so this idea that you can just casually cut out a child's mother or father, and it's going to not affect them at all, and that you were going to push some ever-widening progressive goalposts on the backs of fundamental harm to children, that was sort of the tipping point on the other side of the 85% for me, where I said, get behind me, Satan. Now we roll.

That was 2012. 2012, when I actually decided to start an anonymous blog because I am a peacekeeper and I'm a chicken and I know what these people will do to you. You know, they will make you pay. So I wasn't out there with my name up front. I just thought,

That was 2012. 2012, when I actually decided to start an anonymous blog because I am a peacekeeper and I'm a chicken and I know what these people will do to you. You know, they will make you pay. So I wasn't out there with my name up front. I just thought,

I just want to talk to the world about why marriage is actually about justice for children and the pain that they experience when you cut their mother or father out of their life and the harms that go along with that. Harms to their physical body, harm to their emotion, their academics, their future relationships.

I just want to talk to the world about why marriage is actually about justice for children and the pain that they experience when you cut their mother or father out of their life and the harms that go along with that. Harms to their physical body, harm to their emotion, their academics, their future relationships.

This is a worldview that does not discriminate between single, married, gay, straight, fertile and infertile. This is a world where if you're going to put children first, all adults must conform to those fundamental rights. Let's wrestle that out. That means that it is going to run up against all of our self-interest at some point.

Do you mind if I jump in there? Yeah, go ahead. Because you said parents with two kids do better, but I want to challenge that and say it's not two parents.

Well, then... Well, if this isn't what you were going to get to, then please get to what you're going to get to. But I will say that there has been some increased courage and boldness from the right and the left to say children need two parents. Like, the data is now so strong that we're not able to reject that anymore. The myth of the single mother, you know, doing just as well. That is...

Absolutely unsubstantiated. But I will say that it is not just two parents. It's not a two-parent home that advantages children. It is two married biological parents who advantage children. And that's a really important point. Unfortunately, I think because... Go ahead.

No, I remember the conversation you guys had where he said, I kind of feel like I'm at the end of what the maturation that I can achieve without having children, in essence, is how that conversation went. And that is true. Children do mature you in ways that other relationships and other demands do not. But children are not a function of your maturation. You should be a function of theirs.

So I understand. First of all, let me say Dave Rubin, incredibly talented, absolute champion of Western values, probably one of the most talented interviewers that I know of right now. And what he did to those children is 100 percent unjust. Unfortunately, he forced the smallest, the weakest, the most vulnerable to sacrifice for two grown men.

And even though they can try to make up for it with freezers full of breast milk, nighttime nannies and the mothers in their life, they have denied their children, not just one mother. Not just two mothers, but I would argue all three mothers, all three roles that a mother provides. Number one is the genetic mother who provides 50% of the child's biological identity.

And that is a critical piece of identity consolidation and formation. It is very hard for kids to answer the question, who am I? If they cannot answer the question, whose am I? And unfortunately, Dave and David have severed their children from 50% of the answer to that question. So there's number one mother that they've cut them off of. Number two, the birth mother.

This is not only the most critical, but the only relationship that children have for the first nine and a half months of their life. And the day that the child is born is the day when they're supposed to see the mother they already love for the first time, not the last. Why is it that we put children, newborns, on the chest of their mothers? It is not so they can form a bond.

It is because children have an existing bond with that woman. It is her body, her smell, her voice that soothes the baby. She is the only thing that that child knows. We have measured, and it is her presence that decreases baby's cortisol levels, especially in the first couple days and weeks.

Her presence specifically. Random people, even the child's father, do not decrease cortisol levels and increase oxytocin levels in children the way that the child's own birth mother does. So that's mother number two. And then mother number three is the social mother, the woman that is providing the daily maternal love that satisfies children's souls and maximizes their development.

So what surrogacy does is it splices what should be one person, mother, into three purchasable and optional women, the genetic mother who provides the egg, the birth mother that gestates the child, and the social mother that provides all of that female distinct nurturing that will, in essence, lead the child to that place of balance, thriving, and independence later on in life.

And unfortunately, Dave and his husband David have starved their children of all three of those, not because of tragedy, intentionally and commercially.

And we might as well... I would rather have you ask me the hard questions because everybody in the audience is thinking that too. Do you know how?

Because one of the things we do at Them Before Us is we catalog the stories of children who have lost their mother or father to a variety of different adult interests, not due to tragedy, but because some adult wanted it that way on some level, what I call desire-based desire. maternal or paternal losses. And so one major category of that is children created through reproductive technologies.

Sperm and egg, quote unquote, donation, which is a misnomer. This isn't a buying or selling, or children created through surrogacy. And so you can imagine that many of the kids get these kinds of objections where they talk about how They're troubled by the fact that they have dozens or hundreds of half siblings because their father was a serial sperm donator.

Or maybe their mother donated her eggs to somebody. And so then they have questions like, who is my mother? Very normal questions. Very human child. The kind of questions that every human child asks at some point. Who is my mother? Who are the people that are responsible for me? This is questions that adoptees have overwhelmingly.

These are questions that children created through sperm and egg donation have. Unfortunately, many of them, when they voice their concerns, when they voice their loss, when they voice their pain, what they hear is, would you rather be dead? So I think that this is pretty manipulative.

I think it's a manipulative tactic to say you do not get to ask the questions or feel the kind of loss that every other human child has experienced throughout history because otherwise you wouldn't exist. So I say, look, there's other situations where we can be manipulative. For sure.

Well, let me just say, we can be grateful for, recognize the dignity and the worth of these individual little lives, Dave and David's two children, that they are precious, worthy of life and protection. And I would actually say that means that we require that we be critical of the circumstances of their conception. The exact same way we would handle a child conceived through rape.

Your life is altogether good. But I can be critical of the circumstances of your conception because you were brought about in a way that actually did not respect and protect your fundamental rights as a human.

I don't necessarily think that there is a delicate, nuanced line. And can it be iterated? And if you are going to do one thing that is going to be extrapolated for the general population, I'm kind of a simpleton in that I'm not a thought leader. I read the thought leaders. I listen to you and John Anderson. And I love Carl Truman. But I'm a translator. I listen to what you guys say.

I respect the policymakers, but I want to translate it down to something that is accessible and applicable for everybody. And I will tell you, I can use the same metric and rubric, and I think this is great for personal decisions and policy decisions. And that one rubric is adults should sacrifice so kids don't have to. We should not force children to do hard things on behalf of adults.

And ultimately, any form of surrogacy is forcing children to sacrifice something so adults can have what they want. Nobody has a right to a child. Children have a right to their mother and father.

But children have a right to- They don't have a right to acquire a child. You have a right to your own biological child. I mean, when you leave the hospital, you don't want to just leave with any baby. You want your baby. And you have a fundamental, natural, pre-political right to that baby.

But you don't have a right to acquire a child that then has to lose their genuine right to their mother or father so that they can be taken home by you. So there is not a nebulous right-

Yeah, so first let me say, I think that there's an abuse of the word rights in our world, you know, and it's very much like a Mr. Incredibles thing. When everything's a right, nothing is a right. And unfortunately, it seems like whatever adults really, really, really, really want is conveniently framed as a right.

But if you're looking at things from a natural law perspective, not necessarily what we would even consider to be a civil law, because civil laws can be out of step with natural laws. And again, I'm not a natural lawyer.

thank God, one of the most well-renowned natural law scholars, Robert George, wrote the foreword for our first book, Them Before Us, Why We Need a Global Children's Rights Movement. So there is natural law precedence for this. But like I said, I'm a translator. And so I don't think in these kind of first principle ways.

I will tell you how to determine whether or not something is a natural right based on sort of my simplified understanding of natural rights. And then

we'll be able to figure out pretty easily whether or not you have a right to acquire a surrogate-born child, even though you're purchasing egg and renting the womb and taking the children across borders without any kind of background check, even though you've got a criminal history and you're a known pedophile, which has happened in surrogacy cases. So let's figure out to what extent

children and adults have a natural right. So when I, my understanding of natural rights and my co-author Stacey Manning and I kind of detailed this out in our first book, there's three rules that make something a genuine natural right. Number one, it needs to exist pre-government, right? And that's kind of what our country was founded on is this idea that government doesn't give you rights.

They just recognize and protect rights. So a genuine natural right exists pre-government. So like your right to life, your right to life existed before the government. Government's not there to give it to you. They're there to protect it. Number two, nobody has to provide it for you.

So if it has to be like dug up from the ground, bottled, labeled, shipped, and put on a shelf, it's not a natural right. You might even need it to survive, but it's not necessarily a natural right. Number three, a natural right is given an equal distribution.

So if there's a differentiation in terms of the level of attainment or achievement, a GED versus a PhD or a dorm versus Mar-a-Lago, it's not a natural right. If it's a genuine natural right, you have it in equal measure. Everybody gets exactly one life. Everybody has the same ability, should have the same ability to defend themselves, should have the same ability to speak.

And all of us, regardless of the technological tinkering that was done in some laboratory somewhere, have exactly two parents, one mother and one father. So children have a fundamental natural right to the two people responsible for their existence. Do adults have a right to acquire a child that is not biologically theirs?

No, they don't, because that violates the fundamental natural rights of kids.

Well, let me ask you, if you don't mind, What are the studies that we have on maternal loss and the impact that it has on kids? What are the studies that you know of, of kids that grow up without their mothers and how they fare?

There's one demographic in this country that's truly in the closet. It's kids with same-sex parents who desperately miss their mother or father.

The reason I asked you that is you couldn't think of any off the top of your head, right?

Right. And that's because mother loss, it used to be that if the mother was gone, the baby's dead.

Mother loss, the mother loss is so antithetical to our species, right? That mother and child are bonded so tightly, both in the ways that you're talking about in terms of like responsiveness of breast milk formulation. I mean, I always joke that... mother's breast milk will change whether or not she's nursing a boy or a girl.

So mom's boobs know male and female when a lot of Yale University professors do not, okay? I mean, like mother-infant bond and reciprocity between the two of them is primal. I mean, that's really the only word that you can have for it. And so we don't have a lot of studies of mother loss in children because it goes against the grain of what it means to be human.

And now we think we are just going to casually say, you know what, we can intentionally and commercially sever that bond between mother and child because we have the means to do it. And who am I to say that a woman who's 35 that has the means that desperately wants to be a mother who is going to take home her own genetic child? Who am I to say that she shouldn't do that? Well...

I'm here to say, as best as I can, that I am representing the interest of that child. And the interest of that child is to not be intentionally separated from the only person they know the day that they are born. And I would say that the best example, the best proof that we have of the harms of that is adopted kids. And I say this as an adoptive mother.

I say it as a woman who is the former assistant director of the largest Chinese adoption agency in the world. Somebody that understands that adoption is an institution centered around the wellbeing of children. And it is an act of justice for children who have lost their parents. So I'm not anti-adoption.

I am telling you that adopted children have more externalizing disorders than the general population, even though they are raised by Homes that are statistically more stable Wealthier and adults who spend more time and money on them than the average population. So why is that?

It looks as though disruption of that primal bond with the birth mother has some kind of lifelong consequences and fallout.

Right. Well, and that's where most of what we have in terms of maternal harms is in rat populations. Why is that? It's because it's absolutely unethical to test this on human children. Because even brief maternal deprivation we know, based on those rat studies, can permanently alter the structure of a child's brain.

So like when we start tinkering with the maternal-child bond, because some adults are sad. Or maybe they have an identity that leads them to a place where they do not have an egg or a womb between them. So then we're going to just bypass and ignore everything that we know about the nature of the human child and maternal deprivation and the harms that go along with maternal loss.

Yeah.

I agree. I mean, just because I'm a mom and I'm an observer of reality and I'm around a lot of women and children and husbands and children, all of which, I mean, mothers and fathers offer distinct and complementary benefits to children. Neither of them are replaceable. Kids need a mom and a dad. And, you know, it's so interesting because...

And then I'm sure some of the objections that we're getting from some of the people that are listening to this, they'll say, well, and you know, Dave Rubin said this in your conversation with him, too, that his husband, David, is very nurturing and very empathetic. Yes, which is true. Yeah, sure. Well, you know, one of the other...

categories of children whose stories we try to catalog at Them Before Us as children with same-sex parents. Our website, thembeforeus.com, probably has the largest story bank of kids with LGBT parents. And for a while, I had a very active group chat of kids with two moms or two dads who could just talk amongst themselves.

Because I'll tell you, if there's one demographic in this country that's truly in the closet, it's kids with same-sex parents who desperately miss their mother or father, but cannot say that out loud because they are accused of being bigots and homophobes, even by people in their own family. So the place where they can talk to each other is sort of in these anonymous spaces.

And there were a lot of those kids who would openly admit, I mean, most of them had two moms. There was only one that had two dads at one point and they didn't stay too long. many of them would say, look, I had a femme mom and I had a butch mom. I mean, those words, their words, not mine. You know, the butch mom worked on cars, shaved her head, was stockier.

And the femme mom, longer hair, kind of slim, worked in the kitchen. And I asked them, I said, did any of those butch moms meet your need for a father? And they're like, no, she was my butch mom. And I loved her, I appreciated her, I respected her, but I craved male love. So this is not the kind of thing where a man can put on sort of a feminine presence.

Kids actually want, crave, need, deserve, and have a right to their mother and their father. They don't want somebody that acts masculine or acts feminine, at least from the kids that I know. And obviously, I probably have... a slanted sampling because the kids that are coming to me, many of which are going to come after this interview too.

We get tons of letters and testimonies from kids who cannot say this kind of thing out loud anywhere else.

They're incredibly rare. Yeah. Yeah. A quick note on same-sex parented studies. It's very rare to have high-quality studies. Interestingly, up until about 2005, there was a consensus among the social scientist community that children raised by their married biological mother and father fared best in a low-conflict marriage. I mean, that is what they tended to say in unison.

And then strangely, in the lead up to Obergefell, in those 10 years, there was an explosion of studies that said that kids with two moms or two dads fared no different or even better than kids raised by heterosexual parents. Right. Right.

Yeah, and then when you look at it, right, those 79 studies or whatever, many of which used the same data set and then reinterpreted and spun it to create multiple different studies. When you look at them, they all had very serious methodological problems. Like you said, not randomly derived. They were volunteered, recruited. There weren't adequate controls. They were very small sample sizes.

They weren't longitudinal. They couldn't replicate them. And most of them had to do with the self-reporting of adults. Like there was even a study that came out Last year in Italy, you know, gay fathers, children, you know, did just as well as heterosexual parents. But you look at it and it's like gay fathers report that their children under 10 love having gay dads.

I'm like, what you're saying is heterosexual parents are more honest about their shortcomings than gay fathers are. That's what you're talking about there. So it is going to be a long time.

First of all, there hasn't been a whole lot of studies since Obergefell, since gay marriage was legalized, because it was very obvious that there was a political push towards advancing those kinds of studies in the lead up to the Supreme Court's decision.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

And that would be assumed you could get it funded. He did this.

Yes, Mark Regnerus did that. He published a study in 2012, and he used the gold standard of social science. He got randomly derived participants. He asked the children themselves as adults what their outcomes were. Were they more likely to be sexually abused? Were they more likely to suffer emotional distress or depression? Were they more likely to be on welfare benefits? And the

you know, the no difference study actually turned out to be a massive difference. And he almost lost his job. They came after his credentials. They made his life a living hell. And since then, just like you said, there's been a queering of family studies.

And so now you don't get funded unless there is a pre-political conclusion that you've already assigned to, subscribed to, and are advancing through that study. So Wouldn't it be nice if we had good data? That would be great. We don't. There's very few studies that apply that gold standard of sociological social science methodology.

Yeah, my name is Katie Faust. I'm the founder and president of the children's rights nonprofit Them Before Us. The idea is we put them, the children, before us, the adults, in all matters of marriage and family. So what I do is I trigger people. That is what I do.

Paul Sullins did do it where he evaluated some government data and. no surprise, those no differences ended up being major differences, especially as it related to things like daily fearfulness, daily crying, higher levels of emotional distress, much higher levels of children who had educational IEPs, that kind of thing. And why are we surprised by this?

You know, anytime sociologists are not studying same-sex parenting, anytime they're doing any other kind of family structure study, they generally agree that biological parents advantage children in terms of they are more connected, more invested, and more protective of children. They generally agree that men and women offer distinct and complementary benefits to child rearing.

They generally agree that losing a parent to death, divorce, abandonment, results in child harms. They generally agree that an unrelated adult increases the child's risk of abuse and neglect.

By a lot.

They have a, we have a name for it. It's called the Cinderella effect. Like that's how well established it is. You know, and Wilson and Daly, you know, the Canadian sociologists. They're great too, Wilson and Daly.

They're so good.

And yeah, what did they find? That rates of fatal beatings in kindergartners in Canada between the ages, between the years of like 1979 and 1990, 152. times greater at the hands of a stepfather. And so I just am like, okay, look, we know that the most dangerous place a child can find themselves in America today is in the home of an unrelated man left to care for the child himself.

And so, but now somehow we're normalizing all of these other modern family forms where there's always an unrelated adult in the home, where the child's always being deprived of a biological parent, where they're very often missing the maternal or paternal love that maximizes child development. And somehow we're supposed to believe that these kids fare no different.

I mean, unfortunately, it's just one more example of why we cannot trust the institutions they've been captured by this woke ideology and its kids that are suffering.

What I'm up to is a global takeover. That is what I'm up to.

I do. That's right. Me and Klaus can go toe-to-toe, baby. Yeah, do you have a naked cat? Do you have a naked cat that you, like, carry around with you? No, no. But I do have cats. I've got multiple cats. Okay, okay. Well, that's close enough then.

When you say that children's rights to life and right to their mother and father need to come before adult desires, really what you're saying is every adult has to accommodate and sacrifice at some point. So I tell people, give me enough time and I'll piss you off too because this is a worldview that does not discriminate between single, married, gay, straight, fertile and infertile.

Yeah. I think that's offset by the fact that you have children. No. I do have children. Thank God, great children. Okay, so global takeover. Yeah, global takeover is what we're after. In fact, that's one of the reasons, that was the first thing I said to John Anderson when he invited me to join the advisory board. And you guys hadn't even named it yet, but he's like, we're doing this thing.

I was like, what are you doing? And he kind of described it and I'm like, ah, the righteous inverse of the world economic forum. Please let me in. So I love it. Let's do that same global influence, but not top-down elitism, bottom-up personal responsibility. But it does need to be global.

This movement to protect kids has to go into every country of the world because children in every country, their rights are under threat from the same cultural, legal, and technological forces that are seeking to...

deconstruct their fundamental rights and relegate them to the status of accessory, to be cut and pasted into any and every adult relationship to the detriment of their identity formation, to the detriment of their safety and security, the investment, connection, protection that all children deserve. So how do we do it? What does the global takeover look like? And it has to be two things.

We want to change hearts. and we want to change laws. It has to be both. So last year we did, you know, a hundred interviews published on dozens of platforms, making the case that all adults need to sacrifice for children because the only alternative is for children to sacrifice for adults. And that is an injustice. Anytime you have the weak sacrificing for the strong,

That's all the evidence that you need that something unjust is taking place. That is never the pattern of justice. It always needs to be the strong sacrificing for the weak. So you want to talk practicality?

Forcing children to sacrifice something so adults can have what they want. Nobody has a right to a child. Children have a right to their mother and father.

Yes. I think that there, again, you get into the waters of mislabeling adult desires as rights. A right to choose, a right to reproductive freedom, a right to parenthood. All of those things really just mean I'm going to cut the child's mother or father out of their life, or I'm going to snuff out a child's right to life. So it's very important that we properly define rights.

Children's right to life, children's right to their mother and father. You could add to that children's right to innocence, not to have their... You know, not to have their innocence adulterated by sexualized or whatever. Certainly a right to an intact, unmedicalized body, not to have their healthy organs amputated or chemically sterilized through transgender treatments.

This is a world where if you're going to put children first, all adults must conform to those fundamental rights. And that means that it is going to run up against all of our self-interest at some point. So I think it's a necessary message. I think that it's critical not just to, you know, national thriving, but national surviving. But it does come at an individual cost for all of us.

I mean, the truth is that if you prioritize kids, if you defend their life, family, mind, and body, you kind of win the culture war. You get the right answer to all of the major issues that we're facing, especially culturally, especially emotionally.

whenever it intersects with the primary question of what it means to be human, if you can elevate and exalt the rights of children, you get the right personal decisions and you get the right policy decisions. So we are absolutely out there to change hearts, but we also want to change laws

So many of these child commodifying, child victimizing ideas, technologies, and laws go completely unchallenged. There is nobody to speak up on behalf of children. And maybe, very likely, I'm not the most qualified person to do this, but nobody was doing it. And so that's what we aim to do, is we aim to represent children well. give them a voice when it comes to battling back bad legislation.

We're at the place this year where we're able to propose some policy recommendations, especially for state-level lawmakers who want to claw back some of the lost territory when it comes to losing the marriage and family battle, you know, state after state and nation after nation.

So much in there to unpack. First of all, we certainly are seeing an increase in infertility struggles. Obviously, a lot of that is environmental, but a lot of it is because women are squandering their primary childbearing years. doing other things.

I mean, you are hyper fertile in your twenties and somewhat in your early thirties, but not so much in your late thirties and definitely not in your forties. I mean, once you get to be 35 and you're pregnant, that's a geriatric pregnancy baby. I mean, you've got a really narrow window to have children. And so, especially if you want more than one, you have to get started sooner.

So a lot of, I think that a lot of the infertility crisis that we're seeing is actually just a marriage formation crisis. And because people are starting too late, And so, you know, I tell young women when I speak to them, you really can have it all. I mean, I have the most blessed, incredible, rich life.

I mean, I have an incredible career where I'm doing what I feel called to do, even though obviously there's a cost and it's uncomfortable and all of that. But I also have four incredible kids who are 21, 19, 17 and 15. And I tell women, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at once. And you better have marriage and kids first. Do that first. Now, sometimes you don't get to choose.

I know a lot of wonderful women that are those 30-year-old women who don't have kids yet, who desperately want to and wish that they were married and wanted to be married when they were 22. But I also know women who could have been married when they were 22 or 25 or 27 or 35 and put it off because the world was telling them, you have plenty of time.

Or actually, real equality means getting your master's degree or making partner at the law firm. And then you discover woefully too late. that you were lied to, and now you have a life of emptiness and solitude ahead. And it is incredibly dark. And some of those women, I pray, find fellowship, community, and family in a body of believers at church.

But you are shortchanging women, especially the ones that long for it, of something that really will make them, bring them alive and bring them forward. long-term joy, protection, investment, connection in a way that somebody that you're paying to care for you is never going to be able to provide. Ultimately, like all of the different questions, you talked about MADE.

We're talking about the population crisis. We're talking about all of these reproductive technologies and these different forms of family. Ultimately, they all have the same source. It's the same question. It all comes down to the same thing. And the question is, what does it mean to be human? Right? What does it mean to be human?

And honestly, like a word for the Christians out there, you are the ones with the right answer to this. I mean, the humanists did not get it right. The postmodernists did not get it right. The evolutionists don't get it right.

You, the ones that understand the Imago Dei, you, the one that understands who gives and who takes life, you who understands that we are made in the image of God, male and female. He created them. You who understand that Job, Isaiah, and Jeremiah were all set apart in the womb. You who understand that Christ came incarnate as a child, as an infant, and said, let the little children come to me.

And if you want to attain the kingdom of heaven, you have to become like one of these. You who understand that God has devised serious corporal punishment if you cause one of these little ones to stumble. You are the ones, Christians, who have the right answer to what it means to be human.

And the world is desperate for us to take that truth into all these conversations about marriage, family formation, death with dignity, abortion, IVF, reproductive technologies, surrogacy, marriage, transgenderism.

Every single thing, every hot button topic, everything that gets you canceled on Facebook and everything that gets you banned from Thanksgiving dinner ultimately comes down to what does it mean to be human? And that is a life-saving answer. That is a child protective answer. It's a civilizational defending answer.

So you need to increase your knowledge and then increase your voice in the public sphere. It probably is the thing that is going to save the nation.

Yeah, I've got a couple of those in my house. Well, passing through my house. I've got a 19-year-old and a 21-year-old daughter. And, you know, what we tell them is, especially during the teen years, your job is friendship. Like, I think we have a marriage crisis in this country because we have a dating crisis. And we have a dating crisis because we have a friendship crisis.

It is very hard for young people these days to have to form and maintain healthy peer relationships. obviously because the digital space has taken over a lot of their peer-to-peer communications. And so you really do have to train your kids to maximize and develop their same-sex friendships during the teen years. A lot of that is gonna be modeling.

Are you modeling good same-sex friendships in terms of vulnerability, but good boundaries where you need it with different people? Are you showing them the transparency, how you need one another, how you rejoice when they rejoice and mourn when they mourn? I mean, you become what you behold, okay, for better or worse. And so model great friendships, obviously. I am of the persuasion.

I am not one of the kind of kissed dating goodbye Christians, courtship only. I actually do think that... There is a role for dating in high school and college because I do think that you need to appropriately practice interacting with the opposite sex. So I've told my daughters, you know, when they're juniors and seniors, that if a boy has the guts to say, do you want to go out and get coffee?

You should say, yeah, I'd love to. You need to reward him for having the courage to ask you in person to do that. You don't have to say yes, and of course, you never need to do it if you feel creeped out or anything like that. But there is a, you know, you talk about men being civilized, and I would say... The proper understanding of that is that women civilize the men.

It is women that have the civilizing effect on men. And, you know, the example I always use is when I see when I'm walking down the street in Seattle and I see three men coming towards me on the sidewalk, I don't care how big they are, what race they are. I will cross to the other side of the street. I'm not going to walk past them.

But if I see those three men walking hand in hand with their girlfriend or wives, I'm not going to cross the street. OK, there's just something in me that knows that male behavior has changed because they are now united and they've bonded themselves to a woman in some way. OK, so I tell my girls, you have an incredible power on men to elevate their behavior.

behavior, their choices, their decisions by how we respond to them, okay? It is the soft power that shapes the world, right? That's what women really are, the soft power that shapes the world, not the dominant naggy power, the soft, beautiful alluring power that changes the world. So I do think that there's a role of dating.

And I do think that we should encourage healthy dating, not drunkenness, not permanent friend zone, not jumping in and hooking up. A slow, careful dating relationship where there's parental involvement, where you can evaluate, especially worldview alignment. And then when you get into college, I mean, I told my

19-year-old who is an incredible soccer player and just, oh my gosh, all of my kids are incredible. My 19-year-old was looking for a college. She considered one that had a 75% female to male ratio. And I said, you won't even apply to that college. Absolutely not.

Like this is your primary age, the primary window for you to find somebody who is like-minded, join your life to them in a cornerstone kind of marriage, not a capstone marriage where you figure it all out and then put the cherry on the top marriage. No, we're going to be strategic about who you're exposed to between the ages of 18 and 22. This is your chance.

And I think parents have a huge role to play in encouraging early family formation, early marriage, proper dating. You can't control everything. You shouldn't try to control everything. But the messages that you send, the signals that you send, the environments you put your kid in, it can lead them to the place where they are not involuntarily single when they're 30.

That's right.

Keep your daughters away.

Yeah. And I will say that I think that there's a lot of people that are talking about how good marriage is for men, for example. Like, thank God there's been a resurgence of interest in, actually, this is a vehicle of maturation for men. This is a wealth-creating institution for adults. This is good for women in terms of aligning with kind of the natural design of their body.

It all comes down to the same thing. And the question is, what does it mean to be human? I'm going to scrap this out with you.

That's exactly right. Yeah, a few things. Another thing that the sexual revolution did, not just handing women over to the worst of all men, but it made women, it made young girls very hungry for any kind of male attention because it disproportionately starved them of the paternal love that was supposed to satisfy that longing for male attention. And so, you know, through the course of the

You know, the last couple decades where we decided to abandon the traditional notions of sex only within marriage was meant children generally being bored to a household where they were going to have daily contact with both their mother and their father. Now we have girls who grew up without their father or with a revolving door of different men coming in and out of their mother's lives.

On average, as you know, these girls will start their periods a year early, a whole year earlier than their counterparts.

That's exactly right. So their bodies are literally signaling, I need to search for a man. And so now not only are there more men that are predatory for girls, but now there's more girls that, you know, we call this father hunger in our work, mother hunger or father hunger.

Like, maybe you've got, you know, two moms or two dads who love you or a single mom who's providing for you materially, but they do not meet your need for male or female love. And so you hunger for it. And this is why you see incredibly high rates of teen pregnancy among girls who are fatherless, right? Because... They didn't have that daily male love that they longed for, but they found it.

And I'm so grateful for those voices. I want to be the voice that speaks for kids. Kids don't lobby. They can't hire lawyers. They don't submit amicus briefs. They don't speak at conferences. They don't submit articles and papers and op-eds. That is what to me is missing, is representing the rights and well-being interests and desires of children.

Maybe they only found it for five minutes on a Friday night, but they found it. And so I think the sexual revolution has been bad for women. Of course, my argument is it has been especially bad for children, you know, perpetuating terrible cycles. A note on Tammy's podcast, if you have not watched it, you should go subscribe.

She has done some really fantastic interviews on this topic of, you know, a proper understanding of what it means to be a woman, female, The interviews she's done on the effects of birth control on women's brains, I have sent out to tons of people. So it's very worthy of your time and attention for that.

In terms of my daughters and limits and elevating the behavior of the men around them, I will tell you that both of them got a lot of attention from guys. Most of the guys were not worthy of a lot of their time and attention. But I will say that there were a few times where... They said no. I mean, I'm not talking about a major sexual advance. I'm just saying, no, you can't have my attention.

No, I won't be your girlfriend. No, I won't continue to be your girlfriend if you continue to do these kinds of things. And then they watched the men, the young men, the 16-year-old, 17-year-old reform because... the girl has something they want, even if it's just attention, even if it's just saying she is my girlfriend.

Yeah. So I just think that, you know, my daughters have seen the incredible power of no.

And I will tell young girls, because I, you know, I've been involved in youth ministry for decades. I was running the youth ministry at our church until about a year ago. And I tell girls, like, if there's a guy that you really like, and if you want him to pursue you, you say no to pretty much everything. No, I won't hold your hand. No, I mean, be kind, right?

Yeah, you can go on a date, but if it has to do with a physical advance, the more you say no, the more your desirability goes up. If you want him to move on, give him what he wants physically. No, give him what his whims want.

Yes, that's right.

That's right. Yep, that's exactly right. Kids lose, kids lose. Anytime sex is happening outside of long-term committed, heterosexual, permanent... unions, kids will always pay the price for that. I think that that's one of the reasons why we are where we are in terms of marriage and family is we have pretended like there's no cost. But there is a cost. There's always a cost to kids.

We've said if the adults are happy, the kids will be happy. We've said biology doesn't matter. Love makes a family. But that's not true. Somebody is always going to pay the price. It's just the kids who pay it because they can't defend their own rights.

And it's because it's so easy to steamroll their interests because they can't speak for themselves. They are literally just... at the mercy of whatever it is adults decide for them, whether it's in the cultural, legal, or technological space. So obviously, I think that what's good for kids ultimately is going to be down to the benefit of all of society.

I don't think it's an accident that what's good for kids also in the long term ends up being good for men and women and all of society. But to me, the missing piece is accurately representing the interests of children in all of these conversations. So if I do my job, that's what we're going to be talking about today.

i think that a lot of people are going to say well are you sure you're not just advancing your own religious agenda or your own self-interest in the name of child protection and i would say you suspect that because you are massively projecting that is literally what progressives have been doing on every single issue for decades is cloaking some of the most child-destroying ideologies in the name of child protection or even child rights so i understand why that's a suspicion it's because it's a very well-known playbook especially on the left

Why am I doing this? And also, how are you not falling into that yourself, right?

Well, yeah, we'll find out. You can let me know. We'll have a little J.B.P. evaluation at the end of this and you can let me know. You can give me the big Caesar pass fail. So I didn't get into this by choice. Like in the in the world of sort of Christian and I'm like, I'll just state right up front. I am like a Bible thumping evangelical to the max. Like you want evangelical credentials now.

I got you. Okay. So on that spectrum, I think that most Christians fall into either the truth tellers that are just constantly hammering away at the truth or the grace givers, the people that want to keep the peace and bring together, you know, all different kinds of people. I am a grace giver. But, but, but. The marriage debate is what like flipped the switch for me.

You know, I took your big five personality test and I'm like 100% on extrovert. Conscientious, nah, kind of. Agreeable, 85%. Like I will go along with almost anything. But when it is injustice against children, I see red. I just can't handle it. And that's what happened in the marriage debate.

What I saw, especially when the gay marriage discussion came to my state, Washington State, I saw this progressive agenda being pushed on the backs of child brokenness. when they dared to connect marriage with parenting, which it wasn't always.

A lot of times they advanced to gay marriage on the total separation of the procreative aspect that has always been sort of the foundation for marriage idea, marriage policy, social ideas about marriage through millennia. So a lot of gay marriage was disconnecting those two. This isn't about kids. Oh, there's a lot of heterosexuals that can't have kids. So gays can be married too. So

But when they did connect it to kids, what they said, what I heard them saying is kids don't care if they have two moms or two dads. But functionally what that means is kids don't care if they have lost their mom or lost their dad. That's what you're talking about. When you see the picture of a child with two moms, you're looking at a picture of a child who has lost their dad.

When you're looking at a child with two dads, you are looking at a little girl or a little boy who has lost their mother. Now, Sometimes that happens through tragedy. We used to experience that kind of, especially father loss on a mass scale, for example, after wars. Before modern medicine, we used to experience mother loss at the time of birth.

But thank God, due to modern warfare and modern technology, we are not seeing father and mother loss to tragedy on a mass scale like that. What we are now seeing is mother and father loss intentionally and now due to reproductive technologies commercially. But we're not looking at it as tragic anymore. Now we're looking at it as a step of progress.

So my husband and I had been working with kids in a variety of different ways for a couple of decades at that point. And I will tell you. had not met a kid who lost their mother or father or who, at minimum, was not curious about the identity of that missing man and woman. But very, very often, it was the primal wound.

It was the thing that you could barely touch, that you couldn't even get near without them flinching, without them crying. You know, when we were doing the lock-ins for the kids in middle school and high school, and there's that one kid that wants to stay up at 3 a.m. and talk with you in the middle of the gym floor when all the other kids are sleeping, you know what they wanna talk with you about?

Where is my father? Why doesn't he love me? Where did he go? Where is my mother? Why did she leave me? Why did she divorce my father? Why did she move across the state? It must have been me. There must have been something wrong with me.

And so this idea that you can just casually cut out a child's mother or father, and it's going to not affect them at all, and that you were going to push some ever-widening progressive goalposts on the backs of fundamental harm to children, that was sort of the tipping point on the other side of the 85% for me, where I said, get behind me, Satan. Now we roll.

That was 2012. 2012, when I actually decided to start an anonymous blog because I am a peacekeeper and I'm a chicken and I know what these people will do to you. You know, they will make you pay. So I wasn't out there with my name up front. I just thought,

I just want to talk to the world about why marriage is actually about justice for children and the pain that they experience when you cut their mother or father out of their life and the harms that go along with that. Harms to their physical body, harm to their emotion, their academics, their future relationships.