Kelly Clancy

And ultimately, the maybe unifying aspect of all of those things is some aspect of uncertainty.

Like with dice, you don't know what's going to show up.

It's just random things.

When you're playing chess, you can maybe, if you know your opponent, you might kind of guess some of their plays, but you're really not sure how it's going to end up.

So there's all these aspects of uncertainty in games.

Yeah, but so the problem is that we're now in games that don't end, right?

We're in social media where it's highly gamified.

The technology is kind of incentivizing people to become addicted to it, to endlessly scroll, to give all their attention.

Even games are being gamified in a way.

So there's a lot of mobile games that are...

intentionally, consciously addicting people, trying to get whatever money they can.

This is called dark design, where it's kind of designed in ways to capture attention and money.

So yes, with a normal game, we could just walk away.

But we're seeing this kind of gamification of reality where these systems are increasingly everywhere in our life, and we can't necessarily easily walk away from them.

I've actually kind of gone between both worlds.

Sometimes I love them and sometimes I can take them or leave them.

But I think part of it is, again, it's sort of like what sort of things does your brain enjoy?

And maybe, you know, you're taking enjoyment.

Obviously, you're taking enjoyment out of other things in life.

But one of the reasons games are so compelling is that because they deal with uncertainty, and uncertainty is actually really, really...