Liam Byrne

Are you talking here about all of these people or some of these people?

you're civic pragmatist and you might not call it middle-aged.

I mean, I think your more hardcore reform voters are just so fixed that all immigration is bad, can never be good.

You know, you're not going to win them back on an argument about immigration.

You know, they are, you know, they're not going to leave.

We are.

And look, the big question in Western economics right now is how do you maintain economic dynamism in an ageing society?

But I think you can win a story about immigration if you say- Provided you fix the system.

Provided you can basically say, look, it is a system that is in control, not out of control.

Actually, if you want to be part of the country, you've got to earn your right to stay here.

Those are two perfectly reasonable propositions.

All of the work that people like Seneca Waller has done at British Future shows that that kind of pragmatism is actually where most people are.

But if you don't fix immigration reform, then you're not going to win these people back.

That, if you like, is one of the messages to many people in the Labour Party, which is, look, don't pretend this is not an issue.

because we are going to have to make progress on it.

Do you put it at the top of the list of things that you talk about every day on your messaging?

No, you don't.

You fix it.

You fix it because what you're trying to do is to reduce the salience of the issue at the next election because actually Labour's got to run on the economy at the next election because all of our message testing shows that the big way that you beat reform is by reminding people that his economic plan is basically Liz Truss on steroids.

There's two.