Lulu Garcia Navarro

But this is weird for a therapist to say because so much of our culture is now inundated with this Yes, it's true.

But this is weird for a therapist to say because so much of our culture is now inundated with this Yes, it's true.

This naturally, I think, leads us to how we break the cycle of addiction. For me, it's something that I think about a lot simply because my sister died of her addiction and it was one of the catalysts for making me stop drinking. And it's the two different paths. I took sobriety and she, with a lifetime of struggle of trying to be sober, it ended up defeating her and she lost her life.

This naturally, I think, leads us to how we break the cycle of addiction. For me, it's something that I think about a lot simply because my sister died of her addiction and it was one of the catalysts for making me stop drinking. And it's the two different paths. I took sobriety and she, with a lifetime of struggle of trying to be sober, it ended up defeating her and she lost her life.

What have you learned about why some people can do it and others can't?

What have you learned about why some people can do it and others can't?

I do wonder what made you become an addiction specialist. I mean, was there a reason or was it just something that you were interested in?

I do wonder what made you become an addiction specialist. I mean, was there a reason or was it just something that you were interested in?

So we've mostly talked about forms of addiction that have obvious negative consequences in a person's life. But I also, you know, do wonder about what we say we can become addicted to. You know, when we started talking, you used this example of struggling with romantic novels. I'm also a big fan, by the way. But, you know, is there something trivializing about calling stuff like that an addiction?

So we've mostly talked about forms of addiction that have obvious negative consequences in a person's life. But I also, you know, do wonder about what we say we can become addicted to. You know, when we started talking, you used this example of struggling with romantic novels. I'm also a big fan, by the way. But, you know, is there something trivializing about calling stuff like that an addiction?

Because you can die from alcoholism, but you can't die from reading romanticism.

Because you can die from alcoholism, but you can't die from reading romanticism.

Exactly. So we've been just having this very wide-ranging conversation about all sorts of different types of addiction and all the struggles that we have. And I mean, I don't want to land this on you, but what are we supposed to do?

Exactly. So we've been just having this very wide-ranging conversation about all sorts of different types of addiction and all the struggles that we have. And I mean, I don't want to land this on you, but what are we supposed to do?

You know, that is something that I, in my own personal journey, did. But the other side of this, of course, is that while I'm happier and healthier, I also sometimes wonder if I'm becoming an amoeba. You know, that all this abstinence is just making me into, you know, someone who is always saying no to dopamine and to pleasure. Do you hear that concern often?

You know, that is something that I, in my own personal journey, did. But the other side of this, of course, is that while I'm happier and healthier, I also sometimes wonder if I'm becoming an amoeba. You know, that all this abstinence is just making me into, you know, someone who is always saying no to dopamine and to pleasure. Do you hear that concern often?

That's Dr. Anna Lembke. She's the author of Dopamine Nation. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Marian Lizano. Photography by Devin Yalkin. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

That's Dr. Anna Lembke. She's the author of Dopamine Nation. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Marian Lizano. Photography by Devin Yalkin. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com.

Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com.