Lynne Thoman

It is so shocking. And you even included Michelle Obama's words.

It is so shocking. And you even included Michelle Obama's words.

How did you wield the power of the press to shame Saudi Arabia into releasing a Turkish barber? That, to me, was another one of your extraordinary campaigns.

How did you wield the power of the press to shame Saudi Arabia into releasing a Turkish barber? That, to me, was another one of your extraordinary campaigns.

Phenomenal that you got him off of death row and free. Before we come back, when I ask you more about your tactics and how you invisibly influence news, let's talk about some more examples because the examples are extraordinary. Let's talk about a blue chip client. When you worked for one of the biggest public relation firms in the United States, your largest client was the U.S. Tuna Foundation.

Phenomenal that you got him off of death row and free. Before we come back, when I ask you more about your tactics and how you invisibly influence news, let's talk about some more examples because the examples are extraordinary. Let's talk about a blue chip client. When you worked for one of the biggest public relation firms in the United States, your largest client was the U.S. Tuna Foundation.

Tell us about that.

Tell us about that.

But the firm essentially paid academics to make the arguments.

But the firm essentially paid academics to make the arguments.

You mentioned the term astroturf organizations. What is that?

You mentioned the term astroturf organizations. What is that?

And in the Tuna public relations, you use an AstroTurf organization. Can you share on that?

And in the Tuna public relations, you use an AstroTurf organization. Can you share on that?

And it sounds like such a, at least to a naive person, a legitimate organization, the National Healthy Mothers, Healthy Babies Coalition.

And it sounds like such a, at least to a naive person, a legitimate organization, the National Healthy Mothers, Healthy Babies Coalition.

Just astonishing. You describe what you do as, quote, unobservable forces that produce effects by insensible or invisible means, unquote. Can you explain?

Just astonishing. You describe what you do as, quote, unobservable forces that produce effects by insensible or invisible means, unquote. Can you explain?

Let's talk about some of your strategies. One of your strategies that you tell your clients is don't be a hero. Always find a better villain. Can you tell us about that and give some examples?

Let's talk about some of your strategies. One of your strategies that you tell your clients is don't be a hero. Always find a better villain. Can you tell us about that and give some examples?