M. Gessen

And she joins me today.

Harriet, thank you for being here.

When I was working on the podcast, The Idiot, I hit a point where it was difficult for me to develop the character of my own cousin, Alan, the one who is now in prison.

At that point, I hadn't yet talked to him, and I realized that I had no empathy for him.

And talking with you helped me to understand him a bit more, because you somehow manage to hold empathy for people who do terrible things.

But before we get to that, I want you to tell me a bit about what it was like growing up with a mother in prison.

So I think I need even more help with this, right?

Because

Full disclosure, we're friends, and I've seen you with your mother, and I find your mother delightful.

And your relationship is so close.

But I think to a lot of people listening to this, and certainly for me, thinking about my cousin, who, again, took out a hit on the mother of his children, right?

I think, well, why would you want to have a relationship with a parent who did something so horrible?

I know that at least for some time, both of your parents were in prison.

And so you had the experience of visiting your mother at a facility that, as you described, was as well suited as a prison can be for bringing a child and their parent together.

And I think your experience with your father's place of incarceration was quite different.

Can you talk about that?

You said a phrase, you said that something is too much upset for a child.

You know, that's logic that instinctively makes sense to me, right?

Again, I think of my cousin's children, who I call O and L in the podcast.

O is now 12.