Manda Scott

So I think the truth is we've got to do lots of bottoms-up experimenting.

But the second thing is I don't think this change will truly happen until we also have it from the top.

And what I mean is at some point, someone's going to run on a platform like that.

Someone's going to say, I want to create a different kind of democracy, a different kind of dialogue that involves you, where we come together to think about the future.

And maybe that creates a milieu where a new kind of leader could appeal

to what people have started to experience themselves.

That's why I think it has to happen at both ends.

first of all it's always great to drop in with you and we've had you on our podcast since a couple times as well so it's great to be here again in your community and i am coming to you today from victoria british columbia and recovering from hamstring repair surgery which i don't recommend to anyone but at least i have a good story i did it in a baseball tournament i met a woman at the hospital who just tripped over wires cleaning the house talking to her daughter and i said well i think i have a better story than you

But anyway, it's great to be here and looking forward to this conversation.

Well, yeah, thank you.

And thanks, Suzette.

And I'll come back.

I do want to say a word about my perception of what's happening in the Trump kingdom now.

Maybe I'll start there because I think it's a good context for that question.

Yeah.

I just read a wonderful book I recommend highly called How Democracies Die.

Mm-hmm.

which really looks at not just in the United States, but really the path that democracies often take in dying.

And one of the interesting points that they make in the book, I thought one of those profound points, is that we think that most democracies die from military takeovers.

But in fact, most democracies that have died, or at least, you know, really diminished themselves, happened first with people who were popularly elected.