Marco Arment

Yeah.

Yeah, but ultimately, neither one of them really showed that much of a respect for UI design.

Right, like that's the whole, you know, original sin here.

What set Apple off in a bad direction with software design was basically a disregard or an ignorance of UI design as a separate discipline from visual design, like graphic design,

Yeah.

Right.

It's like, yeah, like all doctors are the same, right?

Yeah.

I have a problem with my foot.

They're my podiatrists too.

They're just the head of doctor.

Just this one doctor, since they're good at this one kind of doctoring, can obviously do all kinds of doctoring, right?

Because it's all the same.

Right, and I think that's what I want to see change.

And that's what gives me hope with Stephen LeMay being elevated because it does sound, by all accounts, that he is more of the traditional UI design kind of person.

And we haven't really had a lot of that in Apple's software design leadership.

really since forestall left it isn't to say that they haven't put in any good software design since um in particular i think i think as as ios 7 kind of evolved and morphed i think somewhere around the ios 12 to 15 era it got pretty good like that was actually a really good era of of ios software design the mac i think has had a lot of problems for

Right, exactly.

Whereas, because, you know, because again, like, with the Mac, as we've talked about many times in the show,

Apple doesn't really put the resources into the Mac that they put into iOS.