Mark Changizi

speaker

236 appearances 1 recordings 1 series first heard Nov 2024 last heard Nov 2024

Mark Changizi’s voice in public audio — every appearance, attributed to the second.

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast · 502. Angry and Red: Color as Emotion | Mark Changizi · 28 Nov 2024 podcast

This stuff is completely invisible if you're colorblind, if you're a colorblind doctor, even going back to Dalton. He had complained about his complete inability to see if someone had infected one eye versus the other. No idea. If they've got blood or stool on their pants, they can't tell the difference between whether it's blood or stool. These things go back for a long ways.

As soon as you're color deficient, you're missing one of those. Now it's just you can't distinguish these things at all.

We, that has been very hard to test because, but what we do know is that there's a long history of medical doctors who have known problems in just detecting blood state related diagnosis, symptoms that are recognizable by blood state.

But actually doing controlled experiments where you're able to do this with, it has been very hard. So no one has quite that data. There's a lot of, my dad's colorblind and he's emotionally dense.

Well, I mean, you can certainly mimic on screen, you could try to mimic the spectral difference in some sense so that... First of all, just to back up, one of the interesting side effects of this is that your camera doesn't show you color vision. Your TV doesn't show you color vision. All the cameras that we use are still in some sense to color vision because...

Their third receptivity is way out, you know, it's distributed way out there. So none of those cameras that we take these pictures of are able to sense these oxygenation modulations.

Yeah, so this is what makes it deeply difficult. It also means that literally we're not seeing all of the states that we experience in real life. The glow of youth, when you see glow of youth, you're talking about the glowing of oxygenated blood on the skin. None of that's available.

Right. And it's not just on or off. I mean, different motions will lead to different kinds of gradients on the face. And of course, it's not just the face, the whole body can flush.

And the other primates, the rump becomes so exaggerated that they literally, the UK would take some of these, the females when they were having estrus out because it was almost embarrassing for the kids to come and watch. So, you know, it's multidimensional. It's certainly, it's color related, but it's not just red, red, green, but there's actually, you know, where you have more

like if i squeeze my hand and let go you get yellow blue differences um now it's not because when it's squeezed out it's more yellow when there's more blood it's all things equal more blue but if it's oxygenated blood then it's blue and red so it's more purple if it's deoxygenated blood it's it's green and blue and so bluish green so in fact you end up by virtue of concentration variations blue yellow and oxygenation modulations red green you can get any possible hue at all

Which is why if you're a painter and you're trying to actually paint human faces, when we go back and look at their paintings, which I could never do, you're like, oh my God, they're using all the hues. Yeah, right. Because we don't typically consciously notice it. We just look at the skin and we think of it as sort of this matte, you know, like a doll. But in fact-

Yeah, some pink, but of course it's not. And you're really seeing the blood. Skin is not, if you've ever, you know, if you get a bruise, the first thing you notice is that it's, of course, total discoloration. And so you're really seeing a dynamic view into the very state and function and health of the individual. It's completely a highly transparent surface.

And we're not consciously aware of it, although we're certainly reading it all the time.

Is it a theory that- Well, mostly, I don't know whether it's mostly health or mostly emotion. It's certainly emotion, state, and health.

So, you know, the first thing I think people think about with spectral skin signaling is blushes, right? And blanches and flushes. But that's really just the beginning aspect. you know, this barely touches the surface. So you can imagine someone's angry and they can get a red face, which is very different from when somebody blushes and they get a, with embarrassment.

And people actually, if I'm in front of a stage and something happens that's slightly embarrassing, and the audience is over there and I'm looking this way, you actually blush more on the side that's facing the audience. Your body- Oh, is that right? Yeah, this is known. This is a drum and some- Wow. Wow.

So they These are strong arguments that these are signals, not just automatic side effects of some kind of implicit side effect with no purpose.

And it's an honest signal because it's out of your control. So honest signal just in this context is a sort of a technical term of art. So we mean by honest signal that you have no control over it and it wears its meaning on its sleeve in some sense.

That's right. And so, I mean, other predictions that come out of this, by the way, it should be the case that if this is true, then the primates with color vision, as opposed to the primates that didn't have three color vision, the primates with color vision should have more naked spots. They should have bare faces.

And in fact, when you look, the primates with color vision are the ones with naked faces. They often have naked rumps, naked genitalia, because all of these things are signaling. The ones without color vision are furry-faced like your typical bunny rabbit, typical dog. Nakedness and color vision, three-color vision, are opposite sides of the same coin.

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