Mark Changizi

speaker

236 appearances 1 recordings 1 series first heard Nov 2024 last heard Nov 2024

Mark Changizi’s voice in public audio — every appearance, attributed to the second.

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast · 502. Angry and Red: Color as Emotion | Mark Changizi · 28 Nov 2024 podcast

So either I'm signaling that I'm really confident or that your claims are not very, you've got a bad hand. Either of those things amounts to a certain amount of stake or betting social capital. But I can also show humility And now I'm sort of pulling off chips. I say, okay, I'm not so great. Or I show respect to you. I'm also pulling out chips off the table. So you can't do that in actual poker.

But you can just start working out. You need to be able to both make claims strong and weak or pride and sort of humility about my own confidence and also respect or disdain concerning yours. And then you can start to work out, I also need to have the ability to acknowledge what you just claimed. Okay, you're saying that you're really confident that I'm, and I'm not confident. Well, given that,

Well, I mean, I think you're overthinking it. Here, for this argument, we don't have to think about it being honest signals like for color vision. Even if we were – I mean, and we're not consciously doing these. We have evolved to just do these signals often implicitly without really – and that's really when we're good is when we're not consciously thinking it through. But –

The reason that you're willing to believe me when I show confidence that I'm the one who should get most of the cake that mom laid out, let's say you're my brother, is because we're part of a social community and I'll get humiliated if it turns out that mom tells people that I'm wrong. The reason that it works is because I care about what I staked I care about the reputation. They're at risk.

And the social community is always watching and gossiping and I'll lose reputation. The reason that it's all about these reputations.

And so that means- It sometimes manages, somehow with humans, it seems to sometimes work even with one-off, right?

Like, because we're so instinctively doing, but, you know, we've been instinctively designed thinking that we're part of a single community that we seem to get off, you know, we get on pretty well and we're all nice to the baristas and everybody's nice to one another, even though we could be real jerks, right? Yeah, definitely.

So it seems to hold over pretty well, but yeah, it definitely brings up more troubles in bigger cities where there's fewer interactions with the same people. Sure.

And I haven't... There's two different... This is a... And here we work out the... In some sense, argue it. Here's the fundamental and minimal... signaling system that is absolutely needed for two creatures to engage in these kinds of staking conversations. You have to have exactly 81. It's a four dimension of signals. Now, the optimal way to use it

It's like asking what's the best way to play poker. Now, there's more than one way to play poker. It's deeply complicated. This is one of the most complicated. It's the most complicated game that exists as long as there's no limits. Poker is super complicated. So there's certainly more than one way to play. One way is to say, no, you go first. No, you go first.

And you're never more confident than your actual levels of confidence. You're not blustery. And that kind of, you can build up a reputation over time, and you probably are helping your friends also build up their reputations, which is kind of what reciprocity is. As opposed to the blustery kind of, who just bluffs his way to the top and is just mean to everybody around him.

He's a chip bully, right? He's a chip bully. He's got a big stack of chips in poker, and he's just pushing everybody out. They bet something, he shoves it in his fold. Yeah. We got out of fear. There's other ways, and you can rise to the top that way as well, but it's probably fragile. The question is for how long.

But key here is what is the language that you need? And it turns out the language, once you work it out, it's exactly the space of emotional expressions that we have. The emotional expressions that we have are exactly what's needed to engage in exactly the kind of generalized poker game that social animals that don't have language need to actually communicate and stake things and carry out.

Oh, they probably are. All I'm saying is that my ability to, I didn't try in this book to work out what are the, what would be nice about to say, and here's the optimal way to use this, or here's, let's say, several optimal strategies.

No, that's true.

So that's like... But less so, because in poker, when you earn currency money in poker, it's spendable anywhere, right? But social currency is inherently often spendable only within the particular community that you're involved.

Oh, this old thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, language is a whole other story, but one thing this does is, and I'll get to language in a second. The way that often we think of language is that you've got this really, you know, rigorous grammar, you know, these propositions, and then emotions are these little colors that they've added. Like there's a little bit of flavor and color.

Right. But really, I think it's the other way around. The real language that we speak, even on Twitter, even when it's just text, is ultimately, it's all of this stuff. It's all of these emotional expressions being done in very complicated ways. And nowadays with GIFs, if you look at the GIFs that we use, the animated GIFs, they're all deeply, they're ways and memes.

These are all ways of getting across your emotions.

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