Mark Dunkelman

That's Nick Bagley's term.

And we're not looking for procedure just because we like it.

We're not looking for delay because we like delay.

We have a fantasy, and we've had it now for several decades, that if you get everybody in the room early enough in a planning process...

you can create a product or an outcome that has no trade-offs.

And the truth is that we're facing, and one of the major barriers to abundance is, we're facing real trade-offs here.

I mean, I do want to point out, you know, the housing crisis in New York City, there's always been a housing crisis in New York City.

And we put all sorts of restrictions on what government could do.

The abundance discourse has wanted, in many cases, to pit

us or you guys against the left and that's not an accurate portrayal of what's happening you're seeing mamdani elizabeth warren is author of the maybe the most pro-abundant housing bill introduced it forever in the senate and has passed the senate and i i think you know to the degree that there seems to be tension about this here's an idea where it seems to me that there's a growing consensus

Mark?

movement, Live Nation and Ticketmaster.

I'm not sure that any of the three of us would voice any objection to taking a strong stance on abuses of corporate power in that realm.

So when it goes to a lot of music shows, I really, really hate ticket fees.

But my concern about that critique is that if you look at the stories, at least in my book and several of the stories in your book,

Like, the problem in many cases is not created by corporate power.

Like, you know, the last chapter of my book is about an effort to build a clean energy transmission line through the state of Maine, which is really just like a string through a bunch of forests in Maine.

It's proposed in 2016, and it's constructed in 2026.

Like, not because there was some corporate behemoth that was

standing in the way or trying to drive up its own... Like, the fight there was about whether it was worth it to imperil some portion of a pristine forest in northern Maine with a wire and...