Mark Siljander

And it was historic because it was a little vibration in the ocean of apartheid in white rural South Africa. and it built into a tsunami essentially within the next few years.

And it was historic because it was a little vibration in the ocean of apartheid in white rural South Africa. and it built into a tsunami essentially within the next few years.

And it was historic because it was a little vibration in the ocean of apartheid in white rural South Africa. and it built into a tsunami essentially within the next few years.

So let me get that story exactly straight. So you were spearheading a weak-kneed bill to begin with, and you were doing that to some degree unbeknownst to yourself as a puppet of forces that you didn't fully understand. But then I didn't quite follow that. What was the transformation of the bill that had the cascading effect?

So let me get that story exactly straight. So you were spearheading a weak-kneed bill to begin with, and you were doing that to some degree unbeknownst to yourself as a puppet of forces that you didn't fully understand. But then I didn't quite follow that. What was the transformation of the bill that had the cascading effect?

So let me get that story exactly straight. So you were spearheading a weak-kneed bill to begin with, and you were doing that to some degree unbeknownst to yourself as a puppet of forces that you didn't fully understand. But then I didn't quite follow that. What was the transformation of the bill that had the cascading effect?

Well, there was a substitute bill by Ron Dellums, a very liberal Democrat from California, that had real teeth in it. Oh, I mean, it was seriously condemning, justifiably, the apartheid regime. And he, of course, presented it as a substitute for the original bill. And all I had to do was call for record roll call vote and be voted down.

Well, there was a substitute bill by Ron Dellums, a very liberal Democrat from California, that had real teeth in it. Oh, I mean, it was seriously condemning, justifiably, the apartheid regime. And he, of course, presented it as a substitute for the original bill. And all I had to do was call for record roll call vote and be voted down.

Well, there was a substitute bill by Ron Dellums, a very liberal Democrat from California, that had real teeth in it. Oh, I mean, it was seriously condemning, justifiably, the apartheid regime. And he, of course, presented it as a substitute for the original bill. And all I had to do was call for record roll call vote and be voted down.

We go back to the other bill, debate that for another day or so. And the weak bill would float through the Senate and go through the Senate and everything would be copacetic with the racists. Well, I refused to allow a voice vote, and no one else was there to call for it except for me, because Republicans didn't want to be seen defending racism.

We go back to the other bill, debate that for another day or so. And the weak bill would float through the Senate and go through the Senate and everything would be copacetic with the racists. Well, I refused to allow a voice vote, and no one else was there to call for it except for me, because Republicans didn't want to be seen defending racism.

We go back to the other bill, debate that for another day or so. And the weak bill would float through the Senate and go through the Senate and everything would be copacetic with the racists. Well, I refused to allow a voice vote, and no one else was there to call for it except for me, because Republicans didn't want to be seen defending racism.

Okay, and so what's the significance of you refusing to call for a voice vote?

Okay, and so what's the significance of you refusing to call for a voice vote?

Okay, and so what's the significance of you refusing to call for a voice vote?

Because the Ron Dellums bill, this extreme bill, passed the U.S. House of Representatives as a substitute for the weak bill. And I was blamed for it. And by the time I got back to my office, I can't tell you how many messages of disdain and anger I received from that. And that was just the beginning of this whole epiphany.

Because the Ron Dellums bill, this extreme bill, passed the U.S. House of Representatives as a substitute for the weak bill. And I was blamed for it. And by the time I got back to my office, I can't tell you how many messages of disdain and anger I received from that. And that was just the beginning of this whole epiphany.

Because the Ron Dellums bill, this extreme bill, passed the U.S. House of Representatives as a substitute for the weak bill. And I was blamed for it. And by the time I got back to my office, I can't tell you how many messages of disdain and anger I received from that. And that was just the beginning of this whole epiphany.

And then when I went to the Middle East, usually we go to Israel because I was on the Middle East committee too. And we were told not to see the Palestinians. And I thought, now, wait a minute, how can one ever work as a mediator, especially one of the most powerful countries in the world and most powerful parliaments in the world, the U.S. Congress, if we don't talk to both sides? We have to.

And then when I went to the Middle East, usually we go to Israel because I was on the Middle East committee too. And we were told not to see the Palestinians. And I thought, now, wait a minute, how can one ever work as a mediator, especially one of the most powerful countries in the world and most powerful parliaments in the world, the U.S. Congress, if we don't talk to both sides? We have to.