Martin Wolf

Now, suddenly you're saying you want us to become a superpower.

You want us to be a great power with an army and a will, and we don't trust any of that stuff.

The last time we tried to do that, we blew up the world.

This is not nothing.

It's still there.

The desire, the will to power, the famous, isn't really there.

So that gets to the answer to your question.

What do I think will happen?

And I think that's exactly the struggle now, because you could see, in a sense, there are two forces.

in Europe today.

One is a centrist, liberal, rather mild desire to create an effective Europe, which isn't really a state, but is more of one than now.

That's the center.

And the other side are the right-wing nationalists.

But the right-wing nationalists are nationalists.

They're not European because when you start going back to who the nation is, you go back to France.

Less Germany, but it's going to happen.

Italy is a peculiar story.

I won't go into that.

But in France, the French right is nationalist, protectionist.

It doesn't see itself as Europe.